What are we really?
Posted By: ExtraCortex
What are we really? - 06/09/07 15:40
Phisically we are a genetic piece of material, atoms, electrons, and soo on..
Inside our master organ (the brain) we have our personality, our inteligence,... But, behind the brain is our "spirit". (i dont believe that we are only a body)
What makes our body to connect to the spirit? How do we give orders to our brain? in wich part of our body is our soul?
What is our soul?
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/09/07 18:53
no such thing as a spirit/soul
simply your brain. And when you die, there will be nothing more...
Posted By: Shadow969
Re: What are we really? - 06/09/07 19:51
I don't think so. Believing that all your emotions, thoughts, ideas and stuff are produced by your brain is like believing that car is controlled by the engine, or PC is controlled by CPU...of course engine and CPU are most important parts of car and PC, but there's a human that takes a REAL control... So in my opinion our brain is like an "engine", and soul is like a "human", controlling our body. Anyways, that is only my opinion
Posted By: padrino
Re: What are we really? - 06/09/07 21:27
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I don't think so. Believing that all your emotions, thoughts, ideas and stuff are produced by your brain is like believing that car is controlled by the engine, or PC is controlled by CPU...of course engine and CPU are most important parts of car and PC, but there's a human that takes a REAL control... So in my opinion our brain is like an "engine", and soul is like a "human", controlling our body. Anyways, that is only my opinion
i really like your argumentation!
i have to agree with you.
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/09/07 21:34
I once tried to remeber where was i before borning.
You'll think i'm mad, but the 1st pictures that came to my mind where a infinite number of spheres with many colors in a black empty space. Each sphere produce light according to his color.
I have sometimes that sleep paralisation, where we wake up, but cant move, i could only open my eyes, and then i tried to move (this was very scary), then everything came dark, very deeply dark, and i felt like flying, and i start seeing lots of tiny dots in the air, this dots were like what my eyes could see, i saw my room, it was like a movie with blur and noise, i could see color but i couldnt make the distinction of each one, then i look down and see myself (my body).
Then i cant remember nothing more than darkness and some time after that i woke up.
What the f*ck was that? Dunno, but i know a lot of people that have that crazy experience, and that tunnel with that orange light at the end.
What the f*ck is out there? It looks amazing, i wish i could see it and come back to tell and to understand as human what the hell is on the other side.. is it, the REAL world?
Edit: the spheres were something like this:
But with vivid colors like this with the black background:
They make me remember atoms or galaxies.. dunno...
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/09/07 21:35
Quote:
no such thing as a spirit/soul
simply your brain. And when you die, there will be nothing more...
So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
Hard question inst it? 
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: What are we really? - 06/09/07 23:53
i believe there's a spirit as well... a soul that is restricted and in part controlled by the human brain that it experiences everything through. it explains this whole... "self-awareness" type thing... it's difficult to describe but it's the kind of thing where there's the... thing... that experiences everything that your body and mind experience.
it's weird... and i'm absolutely terrible at explaining it and i'm using WAY too many (...)'s. even if someone doesn't believe in souls, i'm sure they can use the word "soul" in a non-religious/spiritual way to refer to the awareness apart from your body, where you might even wonder why you're this particular person and not someone else. at what point in the creation of artificial intelligence does this "soul" emerge? surely it is something separate to our actual physical self.
i'm sure ExtraCortex, Padrino and Shadow know what i'm talking about
like Shadow, the "human" behind the "engine".
julz
Posted By: Joozey
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 00:54
I don't believe in a soul/spirit, fully agree on xxguitar here.
Well, please correct me if I'm wrong on this one, I'm not a physicist, but this is my view on it:
There are two different particles in space as far as I'm aware: matter and energy. A spirit would theoretically only consist of energy. But something needs to hold the energy together and normally this would be the job of the matter. Since a spirit does not consist out of matter there isn't a way to keep the energy in one place, thus a spirit can't exist.
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Believing that all your emotions, thoughts, ideas and stuff are produced by your brain is like believing that car is controlled by the engine.
It's a good argument. Had to think about that for a moment . However if you think this way, you'll end up in a vicious circle. I mean, the guy controlling the brain (the spirit) needs to have a human/thing/spirit as well to be controlled, and so does this human//thing/spirit, and the following, and the following etc. etc. If it wasn't a vicious circle, so the spirit is the only and ultimate thing there is to steer the brain, then why shouldn't the brain be able control itself? If the spirit can do so, then aparantly it's physicaly possible, thus the brain should be able to do it as well. Comeing to this conclussion it's not reasonable to assume that there is a spirit. We have never clearly seen, witnessed and measured one, then why assume there is one?
That aside, is it really that hard to think that a bunch of atoms and electrons being aware of itself is not impossible? Sure it's hard to understand but to me, a spirit or soul is even more weird to understand. Seems like people are just shifting the things that seem hard to understand to something they don't understand at all
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So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
But maybe it's not about you or me and the material we consist of.
It's pretty funny to think about this:
It took a while before evolution reached the point of being aware of itself (i'm speaking about us now). We, as a bunch of atoms and electrons, have just started to alter our own genes to improve ourselves in the future. So actually, life started to change itself to evolve. Whereas a while ago (from the beginning of life till around a decade ago) life's evolution was dependend from coincidence factors out of the environment. This way was a slow process of growing/evolving as everything happened coincidentily. But since this coincidence evolution now has ended, and an artificial evolution has been started, evolution will be a lot faster.
Now the point is not you or me as an individual. I don't think there's an explicit individual purpose for everyone. But I do think that it's a natural behaviour of life itself (meaning all living things) to grow, improve, evolve and alter theirself and their environment to stay alive. I don't know why, but that's obviously the purpose if you look around. You can see it everywhere on smaller scales in nature. There is no awareness needed of the lifeform either to try to reach this purpose. If you take a look at the behaviour of a virus, it will try to take over a living being to benefit itself. The virus tries to reach life's main purpose this way; 'survival', or maybe 'perfection' is a better description. The virus in this example is motivated to achieve the purpose because it's beneficial for itself but at the same time it participates in the big picture of life trying to reach 'perfection'.
The reason why we try to achieve this particular purpose has yet to be discovered and, so I think, to find the reason, we'll have to dig very deep into our origins: the tiny particles inside atoms, quarks, muons, luv's and further in. We might see the same 'behaviour' of those particles like we have seen in nature on smaller scales (like the virus). I can't explain this theory properly, but if you have seen the Star Trek Voyager episode "The Omega Directive" with the omega particles, you probably get the idea. 
It's still fiction, not (yet) real, but nevertheless the idea is kinda neat.
Some information: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Omega_molecule
I guess we shouldn't whine that much about artificially mutating and altering genes and stuff. Maybe rude to say but I think, in a way, we're ment to do that in order to reach 'perfection'. And not for ourself, but for whole mother life.
Just my thought
Posted By: zazang
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 03:15
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So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
Hard question inst it?
well,but why do you want to live even if you have a soul ?...to do good things ?
Ultimately,you can always say that there is no use of anything at all.No use of
goodness,life,birth,cosmos...but one thing is very sure with every lifeform.They
all have a will to survive.So that adds some sense to living(for me atleast)
That said,I do believe in goodness 
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 06:01
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So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
Hard question inst it?
Unfortunatly, this brings up many comments. More than I want to post at 2am after an 8 hour shift at McD's...
- Lets start off with a major factor in my statements opinions. I - AM - EVIL. If there are souls, I don't have one. I eat the forbiden fruit and I drink from the glass of hatred.
- Next, What do you have to keep living with your "soul". Eternal life in "heaven" after death? lol...
- Are you saying I can accomplish NOTHING without a soul? What kind of BS is that?...
- Why do I live? To change the world. It doesn't have to be important, or even known by anyone but myself. I live for satisfaction. Whether it be saving a life, or taking one. Starting a business or stealing from one. Providing helpful code and software for others, or virus's instead. Affect...
Posted By: jcl
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 06:12
You do not necessarily need to believe in a "soul". However there is no doubt that we consist of something else besides matter and energy. This something else is consciousness.
A complex enough arrangement of matter, like our brain, produces consciousness. This is nothing supernatural, it's just a property of matter. Animals can be conscious also, though on a lower level. Most AI scientists think that even machines can gain consciousness when they are complex enough.
This has nothing to do with the meaning of your life. Either you gave your life a meaning, or you didn't. Obviously, you can be conscious but still have a meaningless life. Then you might need a replacement, like a god, a guru, an ideology etc. that serves not as a meaning, but at least as a purpose for your life.
Posted By: adoado
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 06:59
This is just a thought I had:
Ever wonder why things work so perfectly...like how something can be described 100% accurately by one mathematical formula. How trees convert light into energy - plants turn carbon dioxide into oxygen, and then we breathe that oxygen. How things work so perfectly and seamlessly, from every atom to huge stars..
Maybe, just maybe....everything is controlled by some infinite force (maybe something like a computer) that is beyond our control. In a way like the matrix but different.
We could simply be entities that have a certain span of free will (like AI entities in PC games) and the universe is controlled by a force outside our control - and we are merely beings in it. Maybe we are simply a "test" or a "game" for another force or entity too powerful and absolutely out of reach of us. It just seems everything works perfectly and brilliantly, but how?
So I just thought (not my 100% belief) that we are simply beings in an artificial world for others to watch out evolution, change, actions, and that this world, this universe is controlled by something far greater.
I do not base my life on this idea - nor is it flawless, just a thought I had when thinking about....things
And if this were true - our life would have.....for some....little purpose.
Thanks,
Adoado
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 07:09
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Maybe, just maybe....everything is controlled by some infinite force (maybe something like a computer) that is beyond our control. In a way like the matrix but different.
...Your spending way too much time inside on the computer bro, you need to get outside and get a tan
Posted By: adoado
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 07:37
haha lol yeah, probably
Just to point out: I'm no matrix maniac or anything - good movie, thats all. That was only used as an example (even if it was a poor one
)
Adoado.
Posted By: Shadow969
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 09:43
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There are two different particles in space as far as I'm aware: matter and energy. A spirit would theoretically only consist of energy. But something needs to hold the energy together and normally this would be the job of the matter. Since a spirit does not consist out of matter there isn't a way to keep the energy in one place, thus a spirit can't exist.
that's because you try to treat soul - nobody know exactly what it is - like a usual physical object, and there's nothing surpising that it cannot be explained with currently known laws of physics.
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- Lets start off with a major factor in my statements opinions. I - AM - EVIL. If there are souls, I don't have one. I eat the forbiden fruit and I drink from the glass of hatred.
Why do you think you're evil? cause you do forbidden stuff? lets look at the simplest example - you help someone on the forum for free, the person you've helped is happy, you made him happy And you can think anything you want - you've done it to gain respect, or to express yourself, or stuff, that doesn't change the whole thing
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- Next, What do you have to keep living with your "soul". Eternal life in "heaven" after death? lol...
for me soul is the strange thing that's inside a living creature(not only human), so if there's no soul in you - you're dead
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Ever wonder why things work so perfectly...like how something can be described 100% accurately by one mathematical formula. How trees convert light into energy - animals turn carbon dioxide into oxygen, and then we breathe that oxygen. How things work so perfectly and seamlessly, from every atom to huge stars..
that can be explained rather easy - the species that haven't fitted that formulas died. So now we can see "perfection"
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no such thing as a spirit/soul
simply your brain. And when you die, there will be nothing more...
So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
Hard question inst it?
Nothing hard here, I live because I live - It's not my fault that my parents "produced" me.
Ever got teached ethics in school? -> "We cannot choose our circumstances"
Easy as that. And I am alive, why would I want to die?
I know that I only have *this* live and that there is nothing after, so why would I just throw away something I have already knowing that it's the only opportunity I have?
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 11:23
If we are only a body, so what causes our born?
If a baby comes to life, why dont you born in baby?
What decides if that baby is you or not? What decides that you dont born in 2 different bodies at the same time? One thing we can conclude with this, we are SINGULAR, you cant be in 2 bodies at the same time.
Another thing that makes think, is what changed in 1989 so that i gain a body and born? With didnt i born before or after 1989??
Because before you borning, you need to have something that decides when you born or not, so you must exist before borning for that someone or something can decide when you born.
Because you cant decide the destiny of something that doesnt exist!! So before you born you must exist so that something else can say "you'll born there!".
I dont believe in the sould like religions and some other way to see things or a passage to another world.
I see the soul like an empty brain, i mean, i think souls are like plants, they dont have feelings, they only exist, without knowing, and waiting for something to happen, to all eternity, in a world without need to time and space, in a "rest in peace" world where you dont need to care about nothing, even dont even care about caring for something.. an empty being... waiting for a body to give him feelings and objectives.
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If we are only a body, so what causes our born?
If a baby comes to life, why dont you born in baby?
What decides if that baby is you or not? What decides that you dont born in 2 different bodies at the same time? One thing we can conclude with this, we are SINGULAR, you cant be in 2 bodies at the same time.
Another thing that makes think, is what changed in 1989 so that i gain a body and born? With didnt i born before or after 1989??
Because before you borning, you need to have something that decides when you born or not, so you must exist before borning for that someone or something can decide when you born.
Because you cant decide the destiny of something that doesnt exist!! So before you born you must exist so that something else can say "you'll born there!".
I dont believe in the sould like religions and some other way to see things or a passage to another world.
I see the soul like an empty brain, i mean, i think souls are like plants, they dont have feelings, they only exist, without knowing, and waiting for something to happen, to all eternity, in a world without need to time and space, in a "rest in peace" world where you dont need to care about nothing, even dont even care about caring for something.. an empty being... waiting for a body to give him feelings and objectives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilisation
....
Posted By: adoado
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 11:54
that can be explained rather easy - the species that haven't fitted that formulas died. So now we can see "perfection"
Exactly. That in itself works - is perfect
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 13:33
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Quote:
If we are only a body, so what causes our born?
If a baby comes to life, why dont you born in baby?
What decides if that baby is you or not? What decides that you dont born in 2 different bodies at the same time? One thing we can conclude with this, we are SINGULAR, you cant be in 2 bodies at the same time.
Another thing that makes think, is what changed in 1989 so that i gain a body and born? With didnt i born before or after 1989??
Because before you borning, you need to have something that decides when you born or not, so you must exist before borning for that someone or something can decide when you born.
Because you cant decide the destiny of something that doesnt exist!! So before you born you must exist so that something else can say "you'll born there!".
I dont believe in the sould like religions and some other way to see things or a passage to another world.
I see the soul like an empty brain, i mean, i think souls are like plants, they dont have feelings, they only exist, without knowing, and waiting for something to happen, to all eternity, in a world without need to time and space, in a "rest in peace" world where you dont need to care about nothing, even dont even care about caring for something.. an empty being... waiting for a body to give him feelings and objectives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilisation
....
You didnt get it...
Why did you borned in your body, in this time and space?
With didnt you born in something else?
What decides the kind of life will going to have?
What some people are rich and others are poor? wtf decides those things?
Then, for your future life to be decided you must exist before you really born, so something decide where will you born.
I think that's the proove of an existing soul.
.. Because my BRAIN can obiousley not exist in two bodies simoultanousley?
Why did I born where I am? Well, ask my parents why they did "make" me...
Posted By: JetpackMonkey
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 14:07
I like Terrance McKenna's thoughts on this topic:
http://deoxy.org/mckenna.htm
Posted By: MaxF
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 16:42
@adoado
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animals turn carbon dioxide into oxygen, and then we breathe that oxygen
I think you will fine its trees that use photosynthesis to remove carbon from the atmosphere and not animals, we are the ones that produce carbon dioxide
Posted By: adoado
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 17:00
Yeah, sorry! That was a typo, embarrassing.
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 17:24
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With didnt i born before or after 1989??
...because your parents got it on in 1988... lol.
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With didnt i born before or after 1989??
...because your parents got it on in 1988... lol.
my words 
Posted By: Inestical
Re: What are we really? - 06/10/07 22:27
Without soul, we wouldn't have emotions. Our soul stores our goods and bads, our memories and experiences. Our brains translate all the sensual stuff for the soul (there is no "visual" contact or visible point where the data moves on).
Soul is our hdd. Eyes are our GPU. Brains are our CPU. Ears are our APU*. Simple as that..
* I mean, that we get the audio data through our ears.
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 01:15
Our physical brain is nothing more than an "INTERFACE", from which our eternal human spirit can control our body.
Scientist know, for example, that when you die, that your brain stops mixing chemicals and energy. Well, that is simply because your spirit has left your body, so the brain is worthless after that.
The brain, therefore, is nothing but a physical interface to your eternal spirit.
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 01:19
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Scientist know, for example, that when you die, that your brain stops mixing chemicals and energy. Well, that is simply because your spirit has left your body, so the brain is worthless after that.
...Actually, I thought it had something to do with the fact that your DEAD. You know, after your heart has stopped pumping blood, and your brain dies, therefor it cant do anything...
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 02:08
No, your heart has nothing to do with your death.
You're heart can stop pumping and you'll still be alive.
That's why CPR is what it is.
The actual death comes, when your brain stops mixing its chemicals. That would be BRAIN-DEAD. That comes several minutes after your lungs and heart stop.
My theory goes that the brain is only mixing chemicals, because you're eternal spirit <that is in us all> is actually sending signals to mix those chemicals.
Once that spirit is gone, then the chemicals stop and they declare you dead. lol
Oh, life is so fun, ain't it?
Posted By: Inestical
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 04:29
Now we start to examine and study this live?
I can hear you babbling:
[Phrase 1.]
"Ooh... chemicals.. they're mixing up... The spirit is within..."
"Omg.. there is no chemicals mixing up.. The spirit is gone.. Argh! I wasn't able to make enough notes.. Bring me a new participiant!"
[Goto Phrase 1.]
Posted By: Nems
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 08:01
I always thought the subconscious is the soul, always with you, the quite voice of common sense, the measure to draw one back from making rash decisions or acts...
Hubris is a wonderfull thing when we can laugh at it but assuming that 'one knows it all' now-time is nothing short of the patently pointed ridiculous.
We dont know what the universe is comprised of or where it is because we have only just begun to ask questions and wake up to the fact that there is more to the world than we are currently capable of understanding.
So we joke about it all.
Souls are in every race mythology as are spirits and so on, the concept is frighteningly consistant and implicit, enough so as to raise these types of questions.
The God thing isnt though..which I guess, speaks for itself (sure, insist that anothers races view is merely a misunderstanding of one cultures hubris in assuming that their interpretation is the only one or better yet, quote unfathomable sources to justify a so called scientific view but keep in mind, any scientific view quoted wont be the actual words or text used by the scientists themselves, they are all well aware of the massive shortcomings of their measuring system.
Many of us have memories as children of events that could not possibly have occured in their present lifetime, many have 'experiences' that are totally unexplainable and yet many more know deep inside of themselves that accountability at some point will occur, where do we get these from I wonder.
At tis time the question of a controlling consciousness n an individual level as expressed here is currently beingexamined by ventures in virtual reality, we are creating a universe peopled by characters with their ownlives in which we can take control of, doesnt that sound familiar?.
What would another 10 years give us? Maybe not an answer to this question but certainly a better appreciation of the question itself.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 11:06
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The actual death comes, when your brain stops mixing its chemicals. That would be BRAIN-DEAD. That comes several minutes after your lungs and heart stop.
My theory goes that the brain is only mixing chemicals, because you're eternal spirit <that is in us all> is actually sending signals to mix those chemicals.
Once that spirit is gone, then the chemicals stop and they declare you dead. lol
It has nothing to do with a spirit making sure chemicals are being released and mixed, that happens through signals. You might wonder where these signals come from, well apparently it's a system that runs on O2 and a lot of different kind of sensors give input to our brains. Well, the brain simply hás to react to those inputs and signals and more or less "requests" for 'chemicals' to be released. It's heavily based upon reaction I guess. Still, we can't quite locate and extract the exact 'thoughts' from brains yet, but we know a lot about it and when what is active.
By the way, as for dying, as long as there's O2 in the brains it'll keep on being "active" for a while. Usually for about 4 minutes. Getting decapitated will be a nasty death since you'll be able to think for another 2 minutes or so before enough stopped functioning to be able to stop 'knowing'.
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You know, after your heart has stopped pumping blood, and your brain dies, therefor it cant do anything...
True, however the remaining blood in the brain has still some O2 in it, after that's been used in the brain, the brain will stop functioning completely.
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I don't think so. Believing that all your emotions, thoughts, ideas and stuff are produced by your brain is like believing that car is controlled by the engine, or PC is controlled by CPU...of course engine and CPU are most important parts of car and PC, but there's a human that takes a REAL control...
It's an illusion called 'consciousness', basically it's still your brain producing your thoughts, storing your memory and so on. Your brain is not a CPU, it's more like a complete computer and it really controls the rest of your body. Most motoric functions are 100% unconsciously controlled. (That's pure awesomeness by the way, since I've recently gotten into doing some hypnosis onto people and make them do funny things hahahha )
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So in my opinion our brain is like an "engine", and soul is like a "human", controlling our body.
I don't think the 'engine' of a car is a good comparison, especially since it already presumes being controlled,
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Many of us have memories as children of events that could not possibly have occured in their present lifetime, many have 'experiences' that are totally unexplainable and yet many more know deep inside of themselves that accountability at some point will occur, where do we get these from I wonder.
There is a huge difference between what people think having experienced and what really has happened. Sometimes people will vaguely remember thing they actually saw on television when they were a little child for example and at a later age thinking they themselves have experiences those events.
The source of thoughts, ideas or emotions is by far not always our own experience, actually, it's mostly nót from our own experience.
I think we shouldn't underestimate the influence of having dreams either, some dreams feel so real that a couple of years later you might have mixed up some things thinking you have actually experienced it.
Cheers
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 11:16
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No, your heart has nothing to do with your death.
You're heart can stop pumping and you'll still be alive.
That's why CPR is what it is.
The actual death comes, when your brain stops mixing its chemicals. That would be BRAIN-DEAD. That comes several minutes after your lungs and heart stop.
My theory goes that the brain is only mixing chemicals, because you're eternal spirit <that is in us all> is actually sending signals to mix those chemicals.
Once that spirit is gone, then the chemicals stop and they declare you dead. lol
Oh, life is so fun, ain't it?
I know a guy that his mother wasa dead for almost 1 day (BRAIN-DEAD status) and she came back to life...
No brain damage no nothing. She talks about a freedom sensation, and time goes faster, but no lights and no tunnels.
I think the brain dies/stops before the soul goes away.
Another thing that i want to make clear here, is that our soul is equal to animal's soul, even germs' soul is like ours, bacause it makes no sense talking about human spirit, dog spirit, while we are all a bunch of materia with identical herarquy structure, that the only thing that makes us different from the animals is the way we evolved.
Having a super brain doesnt make us "special", if we are special for having a brain than the birds are special too for having wings, and soo on..
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 11:19
Quote:
Quote:
The actual death comes, when your brain stops mixing its chemicals. That would be BRAIN-DEAD. That comes several minutes after your lungs and heart stop.
My theory goes that the brain is only mixing chemicals, because you're eternal spirit <that is in us all> is actually sending signals to mix those chemicals.
Once that spirit is gone, then the chemicals stop and they declare you dead. lol
It has nothing to do with a spirit making sure chemicals are being released and mixed, that happens through signals. You might wonder where these signals come from, well apparently it's a system that runs on O2 and a lot of different kind of sensors give input to our brains. Well, the brain simply hás to react to those inputs and signals and more or less "requests" for 'chemicals' to be released. It's heavily based upon reaction I guess. Still, we can't quite locate and extract the exact 'thoughts' from brains yet, but we know a lot about it and when what is active.
By the way, as for dying, as long as there's O2 in the brains it'll keep on being "active" for a while. Usually for about 4 minutes. Getting decapitated will be a nasty death since you'll be able to think for another 2 minutes or so before enough stopped functioning to be able to stop 'knowing'.
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I don't think so. Believing that all your emotions, thoughts, ideas and stuff are produced by your brain is like believing that car is controlled by the engine, or PC is controlled by CPU...of course engine and CPU are most important parts of car and PC, but there's a human that takes a REAL control...
It's an illusion called 'consciousness', basically it's still your brain producing your thoughts, storing your memory and so on. Your brain is not a CPU, it's more like a complete computer and it really controls the rest of your body. Most motoric functions are 100% unconsciously controlled. (That's pure awesomeness by the way, since I've recently gotten into doing some hypnosis onto people and make them do funny things hahahha )
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So in my opinion our brain is like an "engine", and soul is like a "human", controlling our body.
I don't think the 'engine' of a car is a good comparison, especially since it already presumes being controlled,
Cheers
You know how to do hipnosys?
I once made that with my bro while he was sleeping.
Very funny, but a bit dangerous.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 11:39
Quote:
You know how to do hipnosys?
I once made that with my bro while he was sleeping.
Very funny, but a bit dangerous.
Yes, I've got a few books and know some people who do stage hypnosis acts. Pretty cool. There's definitely a certain responsibility you have, if you mess up really bad, people can become insane. Basically you have to look at it like this, our brain has this sort of 'self control system' ("consciousness", although according to current psychology standards there's no difference between the consciousness and the unconsciousness since it's interlinked so much) which keeps us from doing uncontrolled unwanted unconscious things, it makes sure that we do what we want and not what we are told to by others. You can easily by-pass this defense system though with a whole bunch of psychological tricks. It's simply because thát's the way the brain works.
A little example. Ever been on a very high tower where you can see the bottom below you several hundred meters below? Well, most if not all people will get this feeling 'ow I'm falling down' or at least the body will try to find balance, eventhough there's no need to find your balance.
Same experience but explained differently; let's put a thick and reasonably wide wooden plank on the floor and walk over it. No problems at all, right? You can even jump around if you like.
Okey, well, now put this wooden plank as a bridge between two high buildings and make sure it's rock-solid in place. It's still the same plank, it's still the same distance and requires the same kind of action, only difference is the brain will now react to the possibility of extreme danger and will try to make you nót walk over that wooden plank. That's the controlling 'mind' pulling some of your strings. That's why it usually takes a lot of confidence to be able to do such things without starting to have balancing issues or without sweating.
Stage hypnosis uses those and similar kind of reactions to trick the mind and take control over the more unconscious part of the mind, you basically try to 'catch the control system off guard', after that you can give a powerful suggestion and it's likely that will happen (the person has then been hypnotized),
Cheers
Posted By: zazang
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 12:17
Quote:
Same experience but explained differently; let's put a thick and reasonably wide wooden plank on the floor and walk over it. No problems at all, right? You can even jump around if you like.
Okey, well, now put this wooden plank as a bridge between two high buildings and make sure it's rock-solid in place. It's still the same plank, it's still the same distance and requires the same kind of action, only difference is the brain will now react to the possibility of extreme danger and will try to make you nót walk over that wooden plank. That's the controlling 'mind' pulling some of your strings. That's why it usually takes a lot of confidence to be able to do such things without starting to have balancing issues or without sweating.
wow this explanation makes sense..made my day thanks !
next time on a height I know how to trick my foolish brain
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 12:48
Quote:
Quote:
You know how to do hipnosys?
I once made that with my bro while he was sleeping.
Very funny, but a bit dangerous.
Yes, I've got a few books and know some people who do stage hypnosis acts. Pretty cool. There's definitely a certain responsibility you have, if you mess up really bad, people can become insane. Basically you have to look at it like this, our brain has this sort of 'self control system' ("consciousness", although according to current psychology standards there's no difference between the consciousness and the unconsciousness since it's interlinked so much) which keeps us from doing uncontrolled unwanted unconscious things, it makes sure that we do what we want and not what we are told to by others. You can easily by-pass this defense system though with a whole bunch of psychological tricks. It's simply because thát's the way the brain works.
A little example. Ever been on a very high tower where you can see the bottom below you several hundred meters below? Well, most if not all people will get this feeling 'ow I'm falling down' or at least the body will try to find balance, eventhough there's no need to find your balance.
Same experience but explained differently; let's put a thick and reasonably wide wooden plank on the floor and walk over it. No problems at all, right? You can even jump around if you like.
Okey, well, now put this wooden plank as a bridge between two high buildings and make sure it's rock-solid in place. It's still the same plank, it's still the same distance and requires the same kind of action, only difference is the brain will now react to the possibility of extreme danger and will try to make you nót walk over that wooden plank. That's the controlling 'mind' pulling some of your strings. That's why it usually takes a lot of confidence to be able to do such things without starting to have balancing issues or without sweating.
Stage hypnosis uses those and similar kind of reactions to trick the mind and take control over the more unconscious part of the mind, you basically try to 'catch the control system off guard', after that you can give a powerful suggestion and it's likely that will happen (the person has then been hypnotized),
Cheers
Its really amazing how our brain is limited lol
In fact, knowing lots of psicology can makes us go further in our life and sociaty level by "manipulating" others trough speech.
Some years ago i found out that every single action we make is a result of an unconscious sexual impulse.
Then i started to search about this and i found out things like Ego, Super-Ego and Id (portuguese definitons for conscience, unconscience and social awareness).
The way i discovered this, it wss trought girls, if you look closely, everything they do is in someway related to their self image in their social group. Its all a crazy game about seduction, because unconsciously you know how to act in order to impress a girl, and when you're not with a girl, you know how to act in your group of friends to be accepted by your society, to raise your social level, so that you can impress/seduct them after all..
This may not make sense, because its all made almost unconsciously.
This year i got 3 girlfriends and the more i have the more i understand them.
One fact is that, the more girls your can have, more respect you'll have among your social group, and that respect will bring even more girls.
But behind this "gigolo" there's the 'real' me, just a "nerd" that likes to know everything, and likes computers, math and soo on..
Other ways to use this is to attract people's attention to you, that's very useful when you want to have success in your career for example.
This area of psychology also has a marketing face, for example, when you turn on you TV you see TV-Shows, or publicity, some of them are "cool" and attract your attention, others dont, the guys that make this kind of publicity study very well what attracts people's attention.
Now in my country there's one publicity that makes everyone look at it, i say, everyone again, that publicity is only a black screen, nothing is happening is like the TV turned off, and a voice saying, "nothing is going to happen here, go away" and something like that. That "repulsive" threatment makes people not wanting, but, desiring to see what's going to happen.
And in fact, its a cheap publicity, that consists only in a black screen.. cheap, but powerfull.
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Yes, I've got a few books and know some people who do stage hypnosis acts. Pretty cool. There's definitely a certain responsibility you have, if you mess up really bad, people can become insane
Nonsense.. you can only hypnotize people who want to be..and you cant make someone crazy or order them to do evil things.. that's only in movies..
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 18:28
@ Phemox
I agree, but only disagree on the source of the signals.
Your eternal spirit is stimulating them I think. Your spirit is YOU or your personality and consciousness.
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I know a guy that his mother wasa dead for almost 1 day (BRAIN-DEAD status) and she came back to life...
Sure, yes I believe it.
But, what happens if your spirit/soul returns back into your body again? Then, everything starts functioning again. Haha.
I recently read a news article, where a person was declared dead, and then later was at the morgue for embalment treatment and was groaning of his injuries there laying ona table. The mortician there was sooo surprised! wow.
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/11/07 21:12
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Yes, I've got a few books and know some people who do stage hypnosis acts. Pretty cool. There's definitely a certain responsibility you have, if you mess up really bad, people can become insane
Nonsense.. you can only hypnotize people who want to be..and you cant make someone crazy or order them to do evil things.. that's only in movies..
No, according to Freud people only become into a transe state if they want, after that they're all yours...
If you get them in that status, then you can do all you want.
Of corse, not making them obeying to you like movies, but you can cross his imagination, dreams, needs and desires.
Posted By: Puppeteer
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 12:46
I think we are only a body.
Because emotions etc. are only some chemical reactions with millions of molecules..
So i think it is possible to simulate or calculate the behaviour of a human like a NPC.
So it is kind of destiny, because it is possible to calculate what you are going to do but you don't know it...
That's what i call destiny.
Posted By: Puppeteer
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 16:37
So theoretic we could be just bits and bites without realizing it, so we could be some NPCs in the RAM of gods computer
(something like the "Matrix" without the humans on the cables)
Sounds weird but i think it is right... What do you think about that?
Posted By: Shadow969
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 18:16
And the whole universe is some kind of stress-test, huh?
Actually i don't think so, because in the case of "all-seeing-god/admin/programmer", he must be interested in the better NPC's behaviour(i think so). And in the reality nobody's fixing peoples' mistakes, and stopping 'em from doing "bad things"
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 19:03
"I would like to change this world, but God refuses to give me the source code =("
Lol, you have to buy it.
Posted By: achaziel
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 19:23
we're all a bunch of assholes, that's all.
Posted By: Shadow969
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 19:30
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Lol, you have to buy it.
I'll wait for the release of bug-free version
Posted By: EX Citer
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 19:42
A big and complex reaction of chemicals.
Btw: REAL control. Real control is a fake of the brain. You can tell a computer aswell that he is "aware" of his doings. But check this out: Of course we must believe REAL control, otherwise no one would be responsible for anything, and laws wouldn´t work.
EDIT2: "So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
Hard question inst it?"
We are all humans and we share the same thoughts. IF you can think we are all a huge set of chemicals, you still can´t believe it because your brain connections are set to the state to believe you are alive. If it would be different you would be dead, like suicide or accident because you got lazy about your live.
Most people of course have strongly set their brain to the state, that they are a lifeform, because it feels good. And otherwise humans wouldn´t have survived. There are for sure lifeforms who didn´t had that feeling of beeing alive, and they all died pretty quick, so we don't know them.
Posted By: Puppeteer
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 20:13
Quote:
EDIT2: "So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
Girls just wanna have fun!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that the real meaning of live (and saving the human population )
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We are all humans and we share the same thoughts. IF you can think we are all a huge set of chemicals, you still can´t believe it because your brain connections are set to the state to believe you are alive.
I like the way thinking i am dead, because then i can't die
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If it would be different you would be dead, like suicide or accident because you got lazy about your live.
Most people of course have strongly set their brain to the state, that they are a lifeform, because it feels good. And otherwise humans wouldn´t have survived. There are for sure lifeforms who didn´t had that feeling of beeing alive, and they all died pretty quick, so we don't know them.
I don't think so:
I think i am a dead thing.
But what is the state that we call "alive"?
It is just a state with the main chemical reactions etc.
If i think i am dead i wouldn't have killed myself because dead or not i can still do some funny things like getting on peoples nerves and much more stuff
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/12/07 20:43
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Yes, I've got a few books and know some people who do stage hypnosis acts. Pretty cool. There's definitely a certain responsibility you have, if you mess up really bad, people can become insane
Nonsense.. you can only hypnotize people who want to be..and you cant make someone crazy or order them to do evil things.. that's only in movies..
No, it's not only in movies, if you fail to get people out of the trance you put them in they can get insane. Read some books, I'd recommend: "The new Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnosis" by Ormond McGill. The book doesn't have this disclaimer for nothing saying; "Anyone using any of the techniques described in this book does so entirely at his or her own risk: the publishers cannot be held liable for any loss, damage or injury, whether caused or suggested by such use or otherwise" Sounds pretty standard to stop any lawsuits for example when people trip over and falls or something, but things could go even worse wrong and this is explained in the very same book too! (actually, certain cases of insanity caused by hypnosis are simply known).
A person's 'will' has very little to do with whether or not you can put them into hypnosis. The people that have a hard time of imagining things are the ones that will be hard if not close impossible to induce into hypnosis. I'm pretty sure you are not immune to hypnosis, nor are most people on this forum. It's necessary to have a creative mind, nothing more nothing less,
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No, according to Freud people only become into a transe state if they want, after that they're all yours...
If you get them in that status, then you can do all you want.
Actually this is untrue, you can't make them do anything you want, there are limits. However unless a person has creative mind skills, it will be hard if not impossible to hypnotize that person, even if it wants to be hypnotized. That's really the only thing that matters. It's also important that the person is able to hold thoughts sufficiently, a weak-willed person will be harder to hypnotize.
Just to give a quote from the same book about this;
"
Q:Is it possible for a hypnotist to make a subject perform an immoral act?
On this question most authorities agree that a person's moral code under hypnosis remains unchanged. Just because a person is hypnotized does not imply they have become a another individual in any case whatsoever. What moral scruples the subject has in his normal state of mind he will exhibit under hypnosis".
(p.37)
Getting people actually into trance is a different story, some techniques will work better on different people, other's only work on people who are easily influenced by the power of suggestion. A lot depends on whether or not you got the person's attention, because thát's when you can give suggestions. That is, you don't need to put people to sleep per say to get some things done you'd like them to do,
It's like the famous physicist Steinmetz once said: "The next great frontier for men to explore will be the depth of his own mind".
Cheers
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 05:32
So... if I think I'm a GOD, then i must be...
...I've got an idea *grinnnnnnn*
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 05:35
Lmao, it worked....
EDIT: Notice me display name
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 06:04
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So... if I think I'm a GOD, then i must be...
...I've got an idea *grinnnnnnn*
Uhmmm *raises hand*, you are forgetting that you'll need to convince US, not yourself. Still, I'm sure those nice people in white coats still have one of those straitjackets reserved ... just for you hahahah,
Edit: Mmmmzz that gives me a good idea by the way, how about convincing someone to be God Lol, i'm going to record that one for sure
Cheers
Posted By: Shadow969
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 07:42
Quote:
Edit: Mmmmzz that gives me a good idea by the way, how about convincing someone to be God Lol, i'm going to record that one for sure
Cheers
Once my friend thought that he was a God after a little "doping"
He was silent and moving his hands in a funny way. Later he told me that he was commanding everything. That's why drugs are bad
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 10:06
i believe in God in a Christian sense (i
am a Christian, after all), and i also understand that our emotions/decisions are caused by chemical reactions in our bodies and brains. this is obvious when you think how drugs can affect your emotions and your "soul" can't force you to act in a rational way.
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So it is kind of destiny, because it is possible to calculate what you are going to do but you don't know it...
That's what i call destiny.
i used to wonder about this. it makes sense though. there's nothing you can do about it -- if you try to act differently because of this knowledge, your acquisition of this knowledge could be factored into the calculation and (theoretically) you would not have actively made any difference to your future.
some people have issues with the biblical idea of "predestination" -- that we who are predestined to be Christians are the only ones who will ever be Christians. this "programmed destiny" idea makes sense and fairness of this.
that leads to one thing i don't like about the movie "deja vu": spoiler warning! don't read if you don't want to know anything about the ending of the movie DEJA VU!
all the signs that he interfered with the past are there -- his blood everwhere, the crashed ambulance, etc. the movie adhered to this idea for a little while when he caused the past death of his partner. there is no reason/stimulus/factor that can cause him to succeed this time, however, when the first time round all these changes were still there but the ferry STILL blew up, she STILL died, she STILL lost a finger.
no more spoilers!
julz
Posted By: ello
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 10:21
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no such thing as a spirit/soul
simply your brain. And when you die, there will be nothing more...
So if you think that you are only a piece of material, that after death is lost forever, why do you keep living if you dont have nothing to win with this?
Hard question inst it?
no, its no hard question
although i believe in being a spiritual existance (being millions of years old) i think even here there is a lot to win, or loose. you can have children and keep the thing running. you can have fun in your live no matter whether its your first, last or only one.
what are we really?? i'd love to say we are somewhat organized energy and yes, we are god
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 10:22
Yeah, don't do drugs, it's not cool.
Try this instead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwthqRJ1Khg&mode=related&search=Okey, so maybe an unexperienced person won't be able to pull this off, but damn this is so funny to watch,
Cheers
Posted By: ello
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 10:30
phemox, whats that? i dont understand it clearly. did the one really take away the things from the other?
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 11:01
Hehehehe, yeah, he did.
The hypnotist, the guy asking for directions, used a technique called 'mirroring' along with some powerful suggestions. He's pointing in the same way as the guy, bending forward to get his attention. Then he takes a few steps back and the guy responds by moving towards the hypnotist again. This means he's got the attention needed and so he goes on giving more suggestions.
Notice how the hypnotist is mumbling some things in between in a very natural way (as in not demanding, but just kindly asking) and after doing all that he has the full attention of this guy, thén he makes the last suggestion of giving him his belongings by handing over the bottle and wanting things back in return. The latter is a psychological thing, it's very natural to give something and expect something in return. The guy at that point is so confused that he's even willing to give all his stuff.
The guy walks away, convinced he had to give those things and convinced the guy himself was asking for directions (because of the mirroring technique), instead he was tricked by the hypnotist Derren Brown.
Lol, not once, but twice.
The bottle came into play the second time, triggering the same attention at once and Derren Brown was able to pull the stunt of again. Great stuff!
By the way, for those who believe it can't go (nearly) wrong (and perhaps even become insane), take a look at this most interesting video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEuKgEjwi6AI'm pretty sure the guy would have gotten serious problems if Derren didn't act upon it like he did,
Cheers
Posted By: ello
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 11:08
wow, imagine what happens in the future if someone hands over a bottle to the guy. i mus check the other video this evening. cool stuff
i guess i'll try that the next time, so beware;)
Posted By: tompo
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 11:35
This guy is reeeeeaaaalllyyyy gooood
Incredible knowlage about psychology and sociology.
And sometimes tricky
like Coperfield
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 11:41
Posted By: Puppeteer
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 12:17
Quote:
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So it is kind of destiny, because it is possible to calculate what you are going to do but you don't know it...
That's what i call destiny.
i used to wonder about this. it makes sense though. there's nothing you can do about it -- if you try to act differently because of this knowledge, your acquisition of this knowledge could be factored into the calculation and (theoretically) you would not have actively made any difference to your future.
It is a way to change the future (Wars etc.)
But with such a machine is one big problem:
It can't calculate himself, so this future won't be completely right...
Posted By: Felixsg
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 15:07
I know the answer
Posted By: ExtraCortex
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 15:07
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Lmao, it worked....
EDIT: Notice me display name
Nice!
Good give me money and enetrnal life.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 15:48
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I know the answer
42?
Posted By: Puppeteer
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 15:53
@ Phemox:
Wrong way:
Quote:
Quote:
I know the answer
42?
Right way:
Quote:
I know the answer
42!!!!!!!!!!!
42 is always the answer... 42 is everything....
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 15:55
Lol!!! True true!
Cheers
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 17:59
Wrong, the answer is six-hundred and sixty-six...
...I didn't say which GOD.... lol.
The answer to life, the universe and everything. 42 Just works always!
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 21:27
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Wrong, the answer is six-hundred and sixty-six...
Well, lol, yeah, off course it's 666, somewhere in history they've swapped 777 with 666, however that's irrelevant since you've forgot to further calculate it using the 'perfect and near infinite calculation', which will always give 42 as answer. After all, the answer to all that makes sense would be 42 ...
(by the way, if you really preach to that god, I really wonder whether it'll eventually be the same god as 'the other one')
Cheers
Posted By: Joozey
Re: What are we really? - 06/13/07 22:27
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(by the way, if you really preach to that god, I really wonder whether it'll eventually be the same god as 'the other one')
I bet 'the other one' is 72
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: What are we really? - 06/14/07 04:31
lol, What are we talking about again?...
...I switched my name back...
Posted By: Nems
Re: What are we really? - 06/14/07 04:50
LOL ! threads very entertaining thanks to you guys
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: What are we really? - 06/14/07 20:42
lol
Quote:
...I switched my name back...
WHAT? Are you GOD or are you not GOD anyways?
Posted By: ello
Re: What are we really? - 06/14/07 21:36
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: What are we really? - 06/14/07 23:17
Ello ?
Back on topic? I thought the topic was WHAT ARE WE REALLY?
Hmmmnnn, Are you trying to say that we are all really just pokemon's?
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/sheets/Nintendo/Misc/Pokemon/EmeraldShinies.pngWell that's it!
Where is WAR TORTISE anyways?
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/15/07 03:24
No, I think ello is trying to say we're all slaves to capitalism, which off course would be correct...
Aaah, the evil and joy of the consumer-society or whatever fancy word they've invented for it. (Yes, Pokémon are EVIL!!!)
Cheers
Posted By: Joozey
Re: What are we really? - 06/15/07 15:25
Quote:
(Yes, Pokémon are EVIL!!!)
Don't mess with weedle mister!
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/15/07 20:07
Lol, come on now Jostie
, I just consider everything what has more influence than good for our society as evil ... you do the math
Cheers
Posted By: ICEman
Re: What are we really? - 06/17/07 03:01
mmkay so ICEman's 2 cents..
What are we, ..really..
A body.. a soul.. and a brain. A body is the meat arrangement of proteins with which you manpulate and progate about earth. Your brain is the CPU what manages this hardware's functions and attachments.
Your soul is that which tonains your persona, your memories, your likeness, that which carries on, to be archived and wiped clean for the next life.
Mind you, this wipe isnt always perfect, ergo memories of past lives. I happen to know a soul is a real entity and that it lives on after you've physically died, carrying on your memoeries until you're reassigned.. I've seen mine.. I've died an incomplete death before, so I know it for myself (believe it or dont).
Some souls are never born, and thusly can't tell you anything about life, new souls get made, god only knows by what, some souls are recycled.. so that the circle of life can continue on and diversity can rule the progress of life on earth and everywhere else it exists on the universe.
The trick to understanding what we are is both not to overglorify it.by incorporating holiness into our existence beyond the fatc we're intelligent life with multiple layers.. and also not to dismiss the other planes of existence and reality because they are not universally detectable from this one.
Honestly.. you could probably fill volumes with what humans cannot generically or currently detect in just our physical universe. What's to say that souls arent real because we can't currently measure them.
So.. meat+soul+human DNA= man.
Arranged proteins(in our case, Meat)+soul+DNA= life.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/17/07 04:26
Quote:
Mind you, this wipe isnt always perfect, ergo memories of past lives. I happen to know a soul is a real entity and that it lives on after you've physically died, carrying on your memoeries until you're reassigned.. I've seen mine.. I've died an incomplete death before, so I know it for myself (believe it or dont).
What you probably experienced was merely what happens when body and brain functions shut down. No need to assume anything linked with a soul in my opinion... Sure, you might have seen the 'lights at the end of the tunnel' or another dreamy experience, that's solely a mix of a psychological reaction and what you're actually still barely getting through from and to your brain in signals. I once went knock-out, basically that's the same experience. Things slow-down, the lights go out and your mind makes up this dreamy experience. Next thing I know I'm awake again ...
Quote:
Honestly.. you could probably fill volumes with what humans cannot generically or currently detect in just our physical universe. What's to say that souls arent real because we can't currently measure them.
True, but then again that's about it. The things we currently do not detect, might not exist at all.
Cheers
Posted By: ICEman
Re: What are we really? - 06/17/07 04:44
they might and they might not.. but most people automatically assume tha because they arent detectable, they automatically dont exist, whereas its an exactly neutral possibility.
I was pointing out with the latter quote that we humans lose alot of knowledge to assumptions that though they have no real strong contradiction, have no basis of disproof.
and btw.. no.. I wasn't hallucinating. I was... quite dead.. for hours.. so says the doctors. They just opted not to give up on me. ( mustve been my health insurance xD)
It was.. no dream.. I listened to the doctors and watched em continue working to save my life... heard words I didnt understand till halfway through medical school.. etc.
I mainly say believe it or dont because people tend to think it was a hallucination.. everyone but the doctors anyway. (I went thru it with them, and they were pretty baffled as to how I could've witnessed them opening me up).
As to the bit about recycled souls.. well this is more stuff you wouldnt believe if I tried. But I happen to know them to be fact.
To those open, it'd make logical sense where science is currently too limited to substantiate it.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/17/07 06:57
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they might and they might not.. but most people automatically assume tha because they arent detectable, they automatically dont exist, whereas its an exactly neutral possibility.
No, not a neutral one, a potential neutral one. In truth it comes down to that we don't know. However we could think of all kinds of things that *might exist* and end up being wrong about it 99.9% of the time. If it were exactly neutral it would have been different. I guess humans are too creative.
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I mainly say believe it or dont because people tend to think it was a hallucination.. everyone but the doctors anyway. (I went thru it with them, and they were pretty baffled as to how I could've witnessed them opening me up).
I actually believe you, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with supernatural or 'partly crossing' or whatever. I think the experience you had can best be described as hallucination, eventhough parts of it really must have happened.
There are people getting operated under hypnosis, not feeling a thing, hearing the whole conversation of the doctors operating them eventhough they are 'asleep' for the most part.
Perhaps your anesthesia didn't work properly, not enough? This happens all the time.
People in coma usually can hear a lot too, later remembering quite a lot of what was said. You can't exactly call them 'conscious' either.
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As to the bit about recycled souls.. well this is more stuff you wouldnt believe if I tried. But I happen to know them to be fact.
It's not that I don't believe on this point either honestly, but for us to believe something like that or consider it to be a fact, you 'd need to give 'proof' of some sort. For now we just have to go with your word, which is fine if it's based on your experiences, however it's not a scientific fact just yet...
Cheers
I recommend to read "Naked Ape" from Desmond Morris and you will realize that you all are not a super being. You are just an animal with a bigger brain (only double the amount of cells of some apes out there).
The humans are just too self-confident at the one hand and they are believers in super natural beings at the other hand. But at the end they are just part of this world, just a naked ape with a few more neurons in there brains.
If you all have a spirit then the dogs also have. Look into their eyes and you will even recognize it.
But this "spirit" is just a word for a natural thing.
You can discuss this to death but it will not change anything.
If you kill another being then you kill another spirit (more or less conscious).
Posted By: broozar
Re: What are we really? - 06/18/07 14:56
from one's own perspective, you only know for sure that you exist and that you have a spirit. because other humans look like you and act a similar way, you assume that they feel like you and are conscious as well. but you don't know it. who says all your surrounding isn't made up by your brain/soul/consciousness? there's a nice philip k dick short story about a humanoid robot who discovers what he really is and that only he exists, and finally he decides to cut his data stream, becoming real in the very moment of his death, and making the others fade away ("the electric ant").
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/18/07 15:27
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from one's own perspective, you only know for sure that you exist and that you have a spirit.
Uhm, we don't know if we have a spirit or soul at all.
The following;
the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life would be the definition of 'soul' or 'spirit' .. People say our souls or spirits are responsible for our actions, the 'controlling mind' behind it all, but why would it be something different from our brain? We can't proof that it actually is, so it's definitely not a fact.
Do we even know for sure that what we decide to do is really our own decision?? No, hence the theories of people in caves and life being an illusion projected on a wall and the dozen other similar theories.
Personally I believe I have total control over my life, but it's a belief, these kind of things aren't per say facts or can really be proven because there's no possibility of doing something over a second time in exact the same situation. And even if there was and you'd do the same over and over again, what does it prove?
Cheers
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: What are we really? - 06/20/07 03:47
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Uhm, we don't know if we have a spirit or soul at all.
I disagree.
Because you are able to THINK, but you do not know why you are able to think.
Everybody just assumes, that they are able to think and have consciousness, because your brain mixes those chemicals, but WHY are they mixing?
Nobody knows why...
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Everybody just assumes, that they are able to think and have consciousness, because your brain mixes those chemicals, but WHY are they mixing?
I'm pretty sure I don't assume that...And what's that got to do with a soul anyway?
The concept of a soul is very subjective anyway.. it has different meanings to different people in various cultures.
To me, the soul is the desire to live, to create, to explore, and finally, to become something new and greater.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/20/07 12:11
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Uhm, we don't know if we have a spirit or soul at all.
I disagree.
Because you are able to THINK, but you do not know why you are able to think.
Everybody just assumes, that they are able to think and have consciousness, because your brain mixes those chemicals, but WHY are they mixing?
Nobody knows why...
I know why I am able to think, I simply can because I can. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to think that I can think. There are even people who say or have said that that's the proof for their existence.
Why the "chemicals" mix, is probably more a matter of chemistry than that is has anything to do with a soul. There's no magical force that stops or makes these chemicals react,
Cheers
Posted By: Puppeteer
Re: What are we really? - 06/20/07 13:44
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I know why I am able to think, I simply can because I can. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to think that I can think. There are even people who say or have said that that's the proof for their existence.
Wrong!
Right way:
I know I am able to think, I simply can because I can.
But i don't think so.
The problem of those threads like this one is that all of you are mixing philosophy and science so science is how it really is and philosophy how humans call it and think about it, so philosophy describes those things.
So both are completly different and you can't mix them...
But both are right.
Philosophy:
Soul <- How we see/feel it / how we call it
Science:
1000s of chemical reactions <-How it really is / Whats behind this what we call soul
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Why the "chemicals" mix, is probably more a matter of chemistry than that is has anything to do with a soul. There's no magical force that stops or makes these chemicals react,
Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
@ Phemox:
lol, right xD
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: What are we really? - 06/20/07 15:46
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Quote:
I know why I am able to think, I simply can because I can. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to think that I can think.
Wrong!
Right way:
I know I am able to think, I simply can because I can.
I didn't say that, I said I know why I am able to think, not why I am thinking. A small difference, so it was correct after all.
Cheers
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: What are we really? - 06/20/07 19:58
Hi,
Hmmn, yes to me, the soul is your eternal concsiousness or your own personality.
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Why the "chemicals" mix, is probably more a matter of chemistry
Yes, but the key word here is PROBABLY.
But actually nobody can say for sure.
Interesting though, you might be thinking:
RAN IS CRAZY!
or maybe thinking:
WHO CAN BELIEVE IN THE ETERNAL OR A SOUL ?!
But whatever your ideas, the fact is that science cannot explain WHY you think and have thoughts.
I know the chemicals mix, but nobody knows why.
Now that is only because science cannot explain the supernatural. It's great for physical stuff, but horrible at spirit stuff. Yes?
It's a funny world that we live in, lol
Posted By: Arathas
Re: What are we really? - 07/18/07 14:31
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But whatever your ideas, the fact is that science cannot explain WHY you think and have thoughts.
There's no why. "Why" is a human kind of question, something only a human can come up with. Life needs no explanation. You don't go asking "Why does this stone exist" either, do you? A stone is a stone and we take it as it is. As a stone. No one asks: "WHY is that stone?" Everyone seems to be pretty satisfied with the fact that dead matter is nothing special, but as soon as it comes to life, we begin asking "why".
Plase read my posting in the "Science and creation"-Thread. I think that nature had thousands or billions (or infinite) tries on life. One of these tries produced humans. Humans tend to ask "why?", and that's it. Sheeps tend to say "Baaaah", and that's it.
Humans are one of nature's products, and nature will not hesitate to answer some of our questions. Instead it will keep going on producing life, changing life, destroying life. Question is not "Why does nature produce life?", because the answer would only be "Because it can." And if something is possible, it will happen. And if it's impossible, maybe it'll take a bit longer to happen.
