quants measurement
Posted By: HeelX
quants measurement - 01/14/07 01:52
For a DLL I'm currently programming I would like to know something about measurements you are used to: quants per meters. For our upcoming title we took 64 quants as one meter, but I'm unsure what the majority is using and I need some default values. So this is now up to you: I hope to get at least some vague direction with this
Posted By: lostclimate
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 03:40
to be honest (and im not a level designer) ive never really tried to stick to strict guidlines, i just do what looks right, even from my programming standpoint, if you had an fps were you moved the speed a normal human being would, then it would be a horrible game, because of the slow pace.
Posted By: Ichiro
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 06:10
Many human models seem to be (slightly less than) 64 quants high, so we've been going with a rough 32q=1m. Another benefit of this is that I can go outside and scream "1 meter! Lucky 32! Lucky 32! Who wants one meter? Going once! Going twice! GO AHEAD AND CALL THE POLICE. SEE IF WE CARE!"
The police take quant bribes in powers of two, which 32 is one of.
I tend to find that whatever you go with, establishing an actual, concrete metric helps keep things in proportion.
Posted By: HeelX
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 10:39
Thanks!
Well, there are several reasons why someone should consider some restrictions like quant measurement
- texturing: if you choose 256, 256x256 is your base texture size and (in a wider sense) more detailled than a lower measure
- if you take a small measure, you could have problems with collision precision, physics eventually
- if you take a measure which is very great, you could exceed on large maps the native map size and you could get errors at the bounds
- if you take a very small measurement, you can eventually get in trouble when you do extensive division calculations
- if you take a measure that is kinda proporional to the decimal 10-base, your calculations, etc., may be more "natural"; or: if you do reconstruction you can work precisely
The reason why I ask you for this, is that I write an own listener object for 3D sound at the moment and you can setup an own measurement (needed because the audio API uses an own world scale), but if you dont do this, I would like to provide a default value for most A6 users.
Posted By: Damocles
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 10:45
I take the measurement, that 1,80 meters are about 64 to 70 quants.
This is about the scaling of the default models providet in the tamlates, and similar
to the original quake scaling.
Setting the scale is very! important
I saw many levels, that did not fit the rest of the game, as everything was scaled
differently.
Posted By: HeelX
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 11:56
Well, it seems that 10 vertical Doom units = 1 vertical foot * 3.288 feet/meter = ~32 quants would fit in this case. So each multiple of 32 seems to be fine.
Its a quiet interesting topic. I cant help my self, but when I discover measurement errors, it appears when I see..
- tables with 30cm thick plates ^^
- too thin walls... imagine a grenade-explosion next to a 5cm thin wall and it will remain undestructed, ouch
- in first person games: the enemies are way too big or way too small
- I am standing on a plaza and the tiles beneath my feet are 10x10 centimers big (too small) or 10x10 meter ^^
- measurement faults appear often when textures are wrong scaled: you see a very shrinked texture next to a texture which seems to have scaling factors == 1000
- bullets are as big as fists
- city skyscrapers are reaching the sky, but the streets are as wide as my bedroom and as long as the way to my toilet
Posted By: Blattsalat
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 17:36
1m = 128 quants
the two resons are the texture resolution and the units. Ingame i need to be able to show things with at least the size of 1 to 2 cm correctly. Since the lowest usable unit in gs is 1quant (if 1m=128quant => 1cm=1.28 quants) i stick to 2 quants to represent 1 cm.
so its basicly about the game your are making. The more detailed the scene has to be (ego games aso) the more quants your meter has. If on the other hand you make a space fight game or an invaders clone, one meter can as well represent 16quants.
but since models replace more and more the scenery, the quants get less important.
cheers
Posted By: HeelX
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 19:22
Quote:
but since models replace more and more the scenery, the quants get less important.
I dont get this: sure, with models, the texturing depends on the skinning density, but nevertheless while moving through 3D space you have to have some measurement.
Posted By: Blattsalat
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 19:28
but its unimportant if all of your models are 2q big or 200.
cheers
Posted By: broozar
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 19:38
would't it make a difference in render speed and clipping?
Posted By: HeelX
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 19:41
Theoretically: no.
If you compile with BSP tree, your map should have the same visibility tree as if it would be smaller (it doesnt depend on the view frustrum during pre-calculation). Clipping: this is dynamically adjustable, so you could increase/decrease the standard values to make it fit with your measurement.
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: quants measurement - 01/14/07 23:22
Quote:
I am standing on a plaza and the tiles beneath my feet are 10x10 centimers big (too small) or 10x10 meter ^^
most of ur points are great, except there is no standard for floor tiles, and there really are tiles as small as 10x10 cm or even smaller, though u are right that some seem ridiculously big.
at the moment i dont know my scale. i built my first model for my game in blender; then, knowing the dimensions of that model, built all my other models in relative scale to that.
julz
Posted By: Inestical
Re: quants measurement - 01/15/07 06:35
it depends on the quality of the specific level, and in the required amount of detail, by default I use 64, but sometimes 128
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: quants measurement - 01/15/07 23:07
It really depends what kind of game I'm trying to make. Scales are quite different in certain genres, like RTS games for example. It would be quite foolish to take 32quants as 1m for a RTS game (unless you want to be able to zoom in and have FPS quality, and unfortunately zoom out and have zero fps
).
I think 32q = 1m is a pretty good standard.
Cheers
Posted By: Joozey
Re: quants measurement - 01/15/07 23:35
If I make a 3D tetris game, I dont look at the scale at all.
If I make a FPS, I just create the level from models, taking the average c-babe-, warlock- and guard.mdl size as a reference for the height and scale of objects.
If I make a RTS, I do the same with smaller models (aprox. half the size of CBabe).
I never looked at the scales, but I was aware of it. But the 0.75 Cbabe / Meter is not in the poll so I choosed 32 Quants / Meter
. I think most of the time I took the 32 Quants / Meter scale, though without actualy using it.
Posted By: William
Re: quants measurement - 01/18/07 04:17
Since my levels are built out of models, I just load the main character model(vehicle) into the level, and build around that. Once your done the basic floor plan, then you build the walls and so on... Just keep things relative to how big your main model is, and how fast your code moves that entity.
Posted By: KojaK
Re: quants measurement - 01/20/07 20:19
I have to agree with the last few. I allways just load my player, then build around that. But I do see the importance of meter/quant scale now. I used to just test it constantly to find out which speed to move the player and AI seems best. Although I guess I've been quite lucky, because i've never really had to resize anything, except my textures.
Posted By: HeelX
Re: quants measurement - 01/21/07 00:15
Its quiet suprising (for me) that most repliers in this thread are using that "lets see how big it is"-method as well as most voters take 32 quants as one meter.
Whatever, I will take then 32 quants per meters as default setting if the user doesnt change it manually.
Cheers and thank you,
Christian
Posted By: jeffmorris
Re: quants measurement - 08/14/07 01:16
I am confused by the measurement system used in 3D Game Studio. I found out that a 3D character like Hero or Inmate is about four small square units high. A man is about six feet tall. If I'm creating levels based on real-life buildings, cities, etc, how do I convert 3DGS units to feet or meters?
Stick with the advise in manual.
Quote:
How much inches a quant shall be depends on the relative size of the models. We recommend one inch per quant for person based games (shooters or adventures), and 4 inches per quant for vehicle based games (war games or flight simulators).
For instance, the length of M1 tank is 32 ft, which is 384 inches. 384 / 4 = 96 quants. (Edited)
And in MED I found it is 4 quants per small square.
Posted By: Cipher
Re: quants measurement - 08/15/07 18:07
Useless trivia : quant =
quake u
ni
t Now you know
Posted By: jeffmorris
Re: quants measurement - 08/16/07 19:40
I think that one quant equals one and a half inch (1-1/2) in WED. The inmate character is over 16 quants tall when the small grid square is set to four units.
Posted By: Inestical
Re: quants measurement - 08/17/07 06:09
you can adjust the size of the grid, so you cannot give absolute size for absolute measurements
Posted By: Doug
Re: quants measurement - 08/17/07 09:33
Quote:
Useless trivia : quant = quake unit
Really? I always thought it was short for "quantity", but I've never asked. 
Quote:
...I just load the main character model(vehicle) into the level, and build around that.
I dont get that. What if your main model is 10,000 quants big? Then you build the walls around it with 100,000 quants or more? This can lead very fast to levels out of level bounds.
I think that 32 quants per meter could lead to a very low resolution. So only 32 pixel are representing one meter. In this case I could never display any buttons, screens, signs or whatever with such a low resolution.
Posted By: HeelX
Re: quants measurement - 08/20/07 17:10
Quote:
So only 32 pixel are representing one meter. In this case I could never display any buttons, screens, signs or whatever with such a low resolution.
It depends.
Indeed, WED assigns textures as 1:1 texel on the surfaces (1 square quant is equal to one sqare pixel), but can also scale your textures in WED (do it once for the whole WAD / folder) and you are done).
I disagree here when it comes to models, because it all depends on the texture resolution you choose for your skin and it depends also on the UV mapping.
Quants are a very relative thing. I originally intended to open this thread to get a default value for my 3D routines in my FMOD wrapper dll, but I came to the conclusion that the quant measurement is very relative to what type of game you are doing. If the game features very large scenes and doesn't support threadmill loading (like in Oblivion), 32 quants would be my choice. For smaller areas/scenes, a larger quants scale is maybe necessary and better than a small quants measurement.
So I decided to take 128 quants as default value and if you like to change it - do it. Quants are a fictional measure and you cannot really argue that 32 quants are a too low measurement (though, I would say that it is at the edge of the lowest measurement degree. Maybe 16 quants for space simulations could be possible as well).
Posted By: jeffmorris
Re: quants measurement - 08/21/07 09:52
Is the measurement system in Game Studio based on metric or USA measurement system? A 3D character is about 17 small grid units or just over two large grid units in WED. I think that one small grid unit equals 6 inches and one large grid unit equals 3 feet. If I create a 3D model in a 3D modeler like Blender and Milkshape, how do I set up 3D modeler so that when I export the 3D model to MDL file and load it into WED, the 3D model is of the correct size?
Posted By: HeelX
Re: quants measurement - 08/21/07 15:29
Well, since Gamestudio is your target in your production chain, you should make the measurement there. So, lets say, you decide for 128 quants = 1 meter (or whatever you measurements looks like). Then make a cube that is 128x128x128 and save it as MDL mesh. This is your reference for your modeling work being imported into gamestudio. Now export the mesh to a format which can be read by your modeling application (e.g. FBX). Check your import/export options in your 3rd party app so that the import/export scale is matching the reference scale when you import the models into gamestudio (if you are unsure just import the cube and export it again and load the exported file into MED and check if the cube is again 128x128x128). Use as less convertions as possible.
Posted By: rvL_eXile
Re: quants measurement - 08/21/07 19:30
If i createt a Level in Valves Hammer Editor i look into the Object Preferences for the Heigth. First i create a Player Entity(Height the same as the cbabe Model). The in Make a Wall Taler than the Player Entity. My thougth is, that the Player Entity is 1,80M Tall(In height Position = 72).
So the wall is 2,4 Meters Height. This is the Optimal Wall Height for maybe a Room.
In Quants it is(Grid=16(Checkthis in the WED->Preferences)
--- First Value = Height Position ---
32 = 2 Quants (0,6 Meters)
64 = 4 Quants (1,2 Meters)
72 = 4,5 Quants (1,8 Meters (If this Value changes, the Quants System fit to the Meters Values!))
128 = 8 Quants (2,4Meters)
256 = 16 Quants (4,8 Meters)
512 = 32 Quants (9,6 Meters)
EDIT:
Textures fit to this "Quants System"
This is my opinion about Quants...
cYa Sebastian
Posted By: Altimeter
Re: quants measurement - 09/05/07 16:48
For my indoor level I used 1m = 128 quants. It allows me sufficient details.
For the rooms this gives me realistic values with:
Roomhight old house 3m = 384Quants = 3x8small boxes = 3 big boxes
Thickness betwwen ceiling of one room and floor of room above = 0.5m = 64quants = 1/2big box
half of it gives me thickness of ceiling and thickness of floor for each room: 32 quants = 2 small boxes
Wall thickness outer wall =37.5cm = 48 quants = 3 small boxes,
Wall thickness inside, load carrying = 25cm = 32 quants = 2 small boxes, gives me 1 small box per room
stairs: 1 step = 25cm high = 32quants high = 2 small boxes high
1 step = 31,25cm deep =2,5small boxes deep
And then I did the same like HeelX: create a reference cube 1x1x1m = 128x128x128quants and export it to my other modelling tools as "urmeter"
Posted By: Damocles
Re: quants measurement - 09/06/07 00:50
The quant system comes originally from Doom (or Quake?),
anyhow, a quant is equivalent to one inch (this is the strange system from the guys that also
drive on the wrong side of the road)
1 inch=2,54 centimeter.
So 72 inch are 183 centimeter, wich is the average hight of a male action hero.
You guys should all stick to this measurement, if you want to use your level
in different game, to have the same scaling.
You will also notice, that this is the scaling of old quake maps, if you want to import them.
so 64 quants are 162,56 centimeters, and not one meter.
More important than having a correct meter scale, is to have a correct scaling
of humans, especially regarding the camerapositioning then.
The camera should be then about 69 quants above the ground, to be in the average human
eye position.
Posted By: Paul_L_Ming
Re: quants measurement - 11/12/07 15:36
Hiya.
I voted "other". I use a 'crazy' scale of 42.666 quants to a meter. Or, to put another way, 128 quants in my 'worlds' is equal to about 10 FEET.
Why? Nothing is exact in this world of ours (well, nothing man made at least). If I know that 128q is 10', it is VERY easy for me to 'eye-ball' the scale of pretty much anything. It also lets me equate 1q to 1" - 2" for the smaller stuff. Real easy to 'eye-ball stuff' when I need to.
Posted By: Damocles
Re: quants measurement - 11/12/07 22:21
It would be a smart thing, to include a "Measurement" Bar into WED,
that displays an Inch/centiMeter scale, or an "average" person.
This way, different leveldesigners would instictively create Art and levels, that
have a common scaling, and is thus reusable by different Projects.
Posted By: Ichiro
Re: quants measurement - 11/13/07 02:10
It would be a smart thing, to include a "Measurement" Bar into WED, that displays an Inch/centiMeter scale, or an "average" person.
This would have helped us considerably in our most recent project. I kept having to multiply all my units by 0.8129. :)
I measure using warlock.mdl
As Michael, i often use the warlock as reference. but if i have another specific model, it changes from map to map, depending on the model i use.
Posted By: Damocles
Re: quants measurement - 11/16/07 16:13
The old warlock and other models are the only scale that somehow scales
levels to a common denominator, used by different people.
Wed should make a serious move, and set a "standard" scale, so levels are interoparatable.
The scale could be adjustable of course in the presets.
Posted By: Joozey
Re: quants measurement - 11/16/07 16:47
The new meassurement should be in acks
and you can put one ack oer meter, one ack or per feet, or per mile, kilometer, lightyear, whatever you prefer. From this the grit should be generated, and in the grit settings you can say, 4 lines per ack or whatever.
Of course any name other than ack would be better, but just as an example.
*EDIT*: would even be better when the grit is automaticly generated, when zooming in it skips to centimeters, milimeters, micrometers... or inches when you use the english measurement system.