what shader version does your card support?
Posted By: JibbSmart
what shader version does your card support? - 02/04/08 23:33
what shader version can your pc handle?
i know i've seen a few people mention their beasts, but i've seen way too many game developers on this forum with graphics cards so old that they do arithmetic by counting their fingers (if a graphics card had fingers).
julz
ps: when choosing what shader model you'd want to support if you released a game right now, choose as if your game can only support one shader model. i want to see what people think the best balance between looking good and wide compatibility is.
Posted By: alleen
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/05/08 01:53
i have a geforce 4800 ti, therefore only dx8 features.
originally i bought my pc with a geforce 6, but for some reason, it didn't handle my native monitor resolution properly (1400x900 px), so i bought a used gf4 on ebay.
nethertheless, i have a new monitor now, and am thinking of upgrading to a better card someday (but not soon)
Posted By: zazang
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 02:42
I have an GF 8800 GT 512mb...its the best bang for buck I've ever had and Crysis runs very well
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 03:07
so far the results are more promising than i had thought -- 79% of voters can handle shader model 3.0 or higher.
and as i thought, the majority would support 2.0 -- 96% of our target audience would be able to play if our target audiences had a similar distribution of shader model support to what you guys do so far (wouldn't it be nice if that many casual gamers really did?).
i guess one thing i didn't consider is the fact that only people with crappy cards complain about shader support, so even though there are only a few absolute rubbish cards among you guys they tend to stick out like dogs' balls (no offense... this isn't meant negatively towards those with such bad cards).
julz
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 11:16
Well, I have a Radeon9200 card, which doesn't support many shaders, I believe it supports only PS&VS versions 1.4 or lower, don't know really. But I don't consider my card a crappy one, because I can run NFS:Carbon at the Maximum video settings!! But at the same time, I can't run the Winter Contest DEMO "Demo Scene"! I don't think that is a normal situation and I believe you guys are overrating the use of shaders in-game!
Posted By: broozar
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 14:33
Quote:
i guess one thing i didn't consider is the fact that only people with crappy cards complain about shader support, so even though there are only a few absolute rubbish cards among you guys they tend to stick out like dogs' balls
i am more concerned about notebook graphics cards. a 8600 in a notebook is damn hot and eats ridiculously much power. so, designing a casual game, i'd take notebook GPUs like Intel x3100 or radeon x1250 as reference.
for desktop games, i guess the gf6 series could be the base for the game development today (keeping in mind that the average game takes 12-18 months to hit the stage).
@len: that is because of EA's good fallbacks, and most of the shader effects aren't even displayed by your card (so far to "max detail"). but, the truth is, a radon 9200 can't run quake3arena (early 2000, no hardware shaders) in 1028x1024 and all details above 50 fps. i once had one myself, i switched to geForce 4200 these days.
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 15:03
I'm talking about the fact that I can play NFS:Carbon, but I can't even run this small little Demo Scene! I have a feeling that a lot of the people here are starting to think that their game will rule, because they put shaders in it, but I do not think this is the way to go with 3DGS! Seeing that not so many games are actually fully developed using 3DGS, a developer should focus more on the gameplay of a game and other factors, instead of trying to get the shaders working. And, I think you will agree with me on this one, most of the developers here are indie! Indie games are not so judged by their graphics, but their gameplay. Also the indie market is smaller then the market for core-gamers, so a game needs to appeal to much more people, and if a 3DGS game doesn't work on my system because of shaders, but NFS:Carbon does, which one do you think I will choose to play?
Posted By: broozar
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 15:18
- no. 3dgs is no indie scene. it's a beginner's and hobbyist lounge. i also made my first steps to 3d with 3dgs.
- shaders are not the way to go with 3dgs? only because it's been neglected or almost ignored up to today. but people start to expect more for their money.
- bad graphics and bad gameplay often come side by side, especially in the 3dgs sector.
- the gameplay argument is lame. e.g. tell me what crysis sets apart from quake beside graphics. a shooter remains a shooter. and if you are going to be commercial with your indie game, of course it will be judged with no mercy. a "made with 3dgs" stamp does not guarantee the pity of the jury. if not the opposite.
- a "market" for 3dgs games? if the acknex engine wouldn't support shaders, there would be not a single game left in the shelves in a very short time.
the only thing where i agree with you: beginners who try to implement normal mapping shaders and end up having a wet and slimy something on the screen at 3 fps and feel like a king.
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 16:04
I am talking about developers who are indie! Hobbyists and beginners are not developers! And I disagree, that if acknex wouldn't support shaders, there would be no more games on the shelf. Most of the games (perhaps even all of them) that are succesful and have been made with 3DGS do not use shaders, because most of those games fall under the category "casual". And when speaking about Crysis, again - if you make a casual game (which, I believe, for now is the best way to go with 3DGS) it will not be compared to Crysis!
But you don't seem to have understood my point at all! I'm done explaining my arguments, I already did that. I am just going to ask you a simple direct question - does this situation when my PC can run NFS:Carbon smoothly, but can't run a simple Demo Scene even with the lowest settings, seem normal to you???
PS - this is not intended as a bash to the Demo Scene project, just expressing my views about the use of shaders and their negative side!
Posted By: alleen
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 22:37
there are games, that don't use any shader technique and still display bumb maps (like outcast from 1999 i think), or depth of field (silent hill 2 from 2001), and look great. it's a pity that you are forced to have an up to date graphics card in order to achieve this in gamestudio.... unless you are a very talented programmer and can implement these visual features otherwise... which i am not.
but of course it's not just 3dgs, most games nowadays use shaders for effects you could aswell have let your cpu compute, which eventually either leads people to buy a new card. or a ps3/xbox360 instead
Posted By: broozar
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 22:57
surely not outcast. it was one of the last voxel engine powered games and had awkward visuals.
but outcast had some really nice water effects:
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 23:35
Quote:
does this situation when my PC can run NFS:Carbon smoothly, but can't run a simple Demo Scene even with the lowest settings, seem normal to you???
makes sense to me. NFS:Carbon, like broozar said, has plenty of fallback options for bad cards (9200 is a bad card. in fact, even when it first came out it was the slowest of its generation) and is designed to run on weak systems (like the PS2). the demos from this season's contest weren't designed to run on such old and slow systems, and wouldn't have been optimised to the extent that Carbon was.
also, do you have ogg installed? i heard there were serious framerate issues in Rudi if you didn't install ogg. aside from that, it runs smoothly on max settings on my crappy laptop.
which demo scene is giving you trouble? i know at least one of those was made specifically to show off flashy effects (which was really the purpose of the contest), and it is difficult to support weak systems at the same time as keeping the download size small.
Quote:
i am more concerned about notebook graphics cards. a 8600 in a notebook is damn hot and eats ridiculously much power. so, designing a casual game, i'd take notebook GPUs like Intel x3100 or radeon x1250 as reference.
that's an interesting thought. my notebook is a couple of years old and was really cheap and dodgy at the time we bought it, and it doesn't have a graphics card, but it supports shader version 2.0.
still, there are plenty out there who almost never buy new computers. my girlfriend's computer is an absolute fossil. mind you, she only got broadband last week thanks to me. before that she was on dial-up. she spends almost no time on the computer, which impresses me considering how many people we know who live on myspace sending out bulletins titled "i'm bored" all the time. her brother wasn't too happy when he found out he couldn't run AOE3 at a reasonable speed though.
@outcast: wow. 1999? i just looked it up because i was stunned by how smooth the terrain is, but as suspected it's not polygonal.
great graphics for those days.
julz
Posted By: alleen
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/06/08 23:36
the models actually had bump maps, take a look at that giant dinosaur thing here:
http://planet-adelpha.net/Outcast/screenshots.htmlbut yes, the environment (apart from the water i think, and the skymap) only consisted of simple voxels
... there once was a making of video online, where they show the process of skinning one of those citicens in outcast, with bump maps.. i'll try to find it, but i don't know if it's still online
edit:
http://www.outcast-thegame.com/gallery/index.htm
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 06:20
All I'm saying is that the number of games games made in 3DGS actually getting completed is low, and because of the lack of said "fallback" options the focus shouldn't be on the shaders, but on other things. Heck, sometimes you can achieve good-looking effects by faking them. As I said, if I have a small yet graphically appealing game made in 3DGS that I cannot even run on my PC, what is the point of making such a game? And don't start saying that I cannot run Crysis too, player expectations are higher now.... It will be a long time till someone creates a game like Crysis using 3DGS, so these kinds of games and 3DGS games are not comparable!
And I'm talking about the Demo Scene - it is actually called Demo Scene....
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 10:58
i understand, but your example is terrible. "demo scene" is designed specifically to show off slin's shader effects, not to show how good he can make it look without being too taxing on weak cards. it's not designed for pixel shader 1.4, which isn't useful for shadow mapping and other modern effects.
you're position is understandable, but use a more appropriate example. one that someone actually wishes to distribute widely at some point in time to a wide target audience, and perhaps make some money with.
julz
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 11:10
OK, maybe I exaggerated a bit when using the Demo Scene as an example, but it was just meant to show a growing trend in 3DGS games, at least judging by the posts in this forum. Everybody is trying to include shaders in their game, just take a look at ShowcaseI. If it is just meant for experimenting with the possibilities of the engine, then OK, but if the developer is really planning on selling the game, it's wrong.
Leonardo
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 11:37
fair enough. but if i were you i would buy a more modern graphics card from ebay
though i've seen your games don't need shader effects to look nice.
julz
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 11:42
Thank you very much, I appreciate that!
I am planning to buy a more up-to-date PC, with everything maxed out, if my budget allows me to do that, but it's still some months away...
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 13:04
You should not beat shaders down so much. You dont need PS 3.0 for making good visuals. The problem with very flat and bad lighted models in 3dgs can only be solved with shadowmapping or gpu lighting. Even the fixed function pipeline can render bump mapping, faked reflection through an environment cube map and other nice effects like cartoon rendering, lava and such.
There is really no excuse to not use such techniques. No talking about gameplay, old graphic cards ore whatever. You all can use it. Get you a copy of SMEE2.0 or just look into the WIKI. Every card can render the old stuff and it will improve lighting very much.
Why should a game look bad, only because it was made by a small team or one person? While we are talking here you could even have achieved it through just checking it out.
Otherwise it is better to stick to 2d-games. But even then you need fantastic graphics to compete with every standard casual game out there. Casual games are no excuse for bad graphics anymore. They look appealing, have a good mood and sell so good, that some companies made Millions with it.
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 13:22
Well, I agree that a game shouldn't look bad, but a developer (especially one who is using 3DGS) shouldn't sacrifice a part of the potential buyers by implementing shaders. It is alright with me, if a game uses such techniques that work on most of the video cards and still looks good. That's just great!!
But the difference between other games that use shaders and 3DGS games, I guess is the possibility to have fallback options, as others mentioned here. Well, here's a question - how hard would it be to implement shaders in a 3DGS game, but also have these fallback options, that somehow fake the shader?
If that is possible with 3DGS and not very hard, then I'll stop ranting here! ^^
Leonardo
Posted By: Inestical
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 13:31
vsps20
I need the GeForce 8800GTX or the equal from ATi (can't remember the name)
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 14:24
Quote:
If that is possible with 3DGS and not very hard, then I'll stop ranting here! ^^
You can see in many shaders in this forum that fallbacks are possible. You can even fall down to fixed function pipeline or non-shader. FFP works even on old Geforce2MX, nobody has such old graphic cards.
So yes, you can stop ranting
Posted By: broozar
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 15:55
Quote:
that's an interesting thought. my notebook is a couple of years old and was really cheap and dodgy at the time we bought it, and it doesn't have a graphics card, but it supports shader version 2.0.
well, every pc that has a monitor connected to it has a graphics chip/card. and intel x3100 and ati x1250 are capable of shader model 3 (for the intel chip, i'm not sure maybe even 4 due to many laptops come with vista and this chip). however, it is not a good idea to push this as it will result in unplayable framerates (PREY at around 10 fps with the intel chip in medium settings).
Quote:
but a developer (especially one who is using 3DGS) shouldn't sacrifice a part of the potential buyers by implementing shaders
o.0 well... you'd lose 99% of the potential customers if you would follow your advice. "woah it looks bad - i don't play it" that's what the average customer will think. 1% leaving fans of the engine, geeks, and office pc users which are not the target audience and will barely have a look at an indie game.
and good shader model 3 cards are available for over a year now for under €100.
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 21:47
If 99% of the players wouldn't play the game because of the graphics, then there wouldn't be any indie games on the market, so your statement is wrong!
You know the indie market is growing, noone can disagree with that!
Posted By: broozar
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 22:13
Quote:
If 99% of the players wouldn't play the game because of the graphics, then there wouldn't be any indie games on the market, so your statement is wrong! You know the indie market is growing, noone can disagree with that!
can you give us figures that will proove your argument?
my personal observation is that a game will be bashed by the press if it does not deliver up-to-date graphics, including shader technologies. most target group gamers don't care if crysis runs at 12 fps, it's crysis. same with gothic3 and other so-called "gaming revolutions". no matter how much fun the game is, graphics and shaders assure you a mild review and so a commercial success in most cases. and you have to admit that there are more cases when a game has been acclaimed for its good graphics, but had a questionable gameplay and was a success nevertheless (doom3, far cry, quake4), instead of being a commercial successful game with outdated graphics but extremely fun to play (the gish, worms).
Posted By: Leonardo
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 22:22
Your personal observations are inaccurate! One word - BEJEWELED!!! Does the game use shaders? No! Can the game be made in 3DGS? Yes! And I leave this question to you - is the game bashed by the press? Are most of indie games bashed by the press? If you don't see the difference between indie games and professional company games, I cannot help you!
I suggest that you read a bit more about different game genres, other than the FPS - Crysis! If graphics would rule the gaming industry, indie games would die! And there is nothing you can say to disprove this point!
Leonardo
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 23:10
Quote:
well, every pc that has a monitor connected to it has a graphics chip/card.
no kidding. i didn't say otherwise (and you didn't say i did, but it's implied). but modern integrated graphics won't compete with modern cards. i assumed you were talking about older chips, because i think it'd be unwise to take really modern notebooks as reference. i was thinking about people who think they can't do squat coz they're stuck with integrated graphics. xXxGuitar511 has been struggling with a lack of shader capabilities recently, only to realize after a little research that his friend's computer that he's using actually supports up to vs/ps2.0.
@leonardo: yes, as others said, it's very easy to do fallbacks in 3DGS. my poll was looking for stats without use of fallbacks because i want to see what people think the best balance is.
julz
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 23:27
Bejeweled is made by a company that earns millions with games. It produces high quality casual games. And the graphics are very polished and almost perfect.
They have very good quality assurance, marketing, do advertising, sell through different publishers. It is not comparable with a hobby game-maker calling themselve an indie.
If you want to make a Bejeweled clone you even do not need a 3d engine. You can do it with a 2d game engine.
At the end we come to 3d games and if we look at this we have to realize that Broozar is right. You need good lighting and at least per-pixel lighting, some specularity or shadow-mapping is all made via shaders because it is faster than cpu. You can use fall-backs and support many systems.
Look at the Source-engine. It can even render from DX7 to DX9 with different features. While 3dgs can only render DX9 it still can cover many systems if you have good shaders.
Posted By: broozar
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/07/08 23:48
Quote:
Your personal observations are inaccurate! One word - BEJEWELED!!! Does the game use shaders? No! Can the game be made in 3DGS? Yes! And I leave this question to you - is the game bashed by the press? Are most of indie games bashed by the press? If you don't see the difference between indie games and professional company games, I cannot help you!
I suggest that you read a bit more about different game genres, other than the FPS - Crysis! If graphics would rule the gaming industry, indie games would die! And there is nothing you can say to disprove this point!
Leonardo
ok, obviously you cannot prove your points with figures, otherwise you already had instead of posting such random thoughts.
bejewelled is a classic game, like tetris and gauntlet, not as old of course. there are many pong and even a bejewelled clone out there made with 3dgs (damocles made one, i remember). of course, these games are fun. so is Don't Get Angry. but believe me, neiter Do Not Get Angry nor a Pong or another Bejewelled clone will bring you commercial success, you will rather earn a weary smile.
plus, bejeweled is a flash game. as there is no real (usable and spread) 3d in flash, other rules apply to online flash games than to boxed (or steam-able) 3d games.
and, you are again using the word "indie developer" in a wrong way. indie means independent from big companies, rasing funds mostly by their own and having full control over the design and game creation process, meaning that the ones responsible belong to the same group/company that develops the game, and noone from a 3rd party like a publisher dictates em what to do. but these usually smaller teams usually live from their products by selling licenses to publishers. infinity ward (call of duty) has once been indie, until it has been acquired by activision after the success of call of duty 1. garageGames is indie. they are professionals, but indie.
people and weekend warriors who do not earn their income with the 3d game products they create, are hobbyists and amateurs (word meaning "love the things they do"). they work in their free time. they are not professionals in terms of the definition "professional", their profession is their job they earn an income with. if they are really good at the things tey do, they are semi-professionals. they are not indie developers in terms of my previous paragraph.
you can hardly compare bejewelled with crysis or ut3. neither will i. just tell me which game you awaited longer for the last months and years, ut3 or bejewelled 08/15? how many preview and review articles have been written about ut3, how many about bejewelled ME edition? do you have the slightest idea of UT's sales figures, compared to the lads who play bejewelled2 on a regular basis?
not the indie scene is dying. just noone will buy or play hobbyist games that follow your philosophy but some nerds and engine fans. to give you an impression of today's indie scene,
red ocean:
ankh (based on ogre):
Posted By: lostclimate
Re: what shader version does your card support? - 02/08/08 04:43
bejeweled does use shaders, it just has fallbacks. when you warp between levels, look at the effects on a old machine and on a new machine, you'll see what im talking about. btw, im talking about bejeweled 2 which sold many many more copies and the one most people play.