Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts?

Posted By: DavidLancaster

Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts? - 03/28/08 12:57

Here you have the greatest video game of all time, Ocarina of Time. Along with it you have a question "What made the game so successful?". Then you have a game like Psychonauts or Beyond Good and Evil. These games were given high scores by the critics, the people who played them loved them, but they failed to succeed. There's probably a whole bunch of reasons why they didn't succeed, marketing, too high budget etc. But what I'm interested in focusing on is actually the gameplay itself, the immersive experience.

I'm sure there are other games to look at apart from these. But what are your thoughts on why a game like Zelda was so successful and others which were given great ratings weren't? What is it about Kingdom Hearts that makes it such a cool game? What did these games do right and wrong? etc etc etc

Also considering the following, Cavestory (great gameplay and great story, old graphics and old sound) what made this game so fun? It was like playing Super Metriod in a new, innovative and unique fashion. So it leads me to think that the main difference with adventure games is that the story has a larger part to play in how fun the game is??? If that's the case then assuming we have the story down, what could we create and do to make magnificent gameplay?

I'd really love to hear your thoughts so please share.
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/28/08 14:36

im not sure about any of the games other than zelda and super metroid, and i think what makes them so successful is the non linearity (not in the sense that you can do whatever you want) but there are loads of side quests... and they arent random quests, they all have something to do with the story, or have stories of there own.
Posted By: Inestical

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/28/08 14:50

It's because Zelda is famous. Who wouldn't get the newest of the very best, but get something else?
Posted By: christian

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts? - 03/28/08 17:59

I am not an expert on these things but I think you may be confusing "Greatest game of all time" with "most popular game of all time". I think Zelda and Metroid are so popular because they have such simple story lines. Complex story lines are often distracting, whether it be movies books or games. Look at adventure games like Siberia and Dreamfall or even Myst. Great games if you like that sort of thing but to complex to the point of boring to the majority of gamers.
I think Zelda was so great because the story is straight forward and people can relate to it. And it had a variety of challenges.
Also I do not think you cannot emphasize enough that Zelda was designed for teenagers with gameplay that could be enjoyed by their younger siblings and that could also enjoyed as these teenagers grew up. Most kids games are discarded at a certain age. Zelda has incredible longevity. Another thing about games like Zelda is that they seem to be interesting only to people who played them as kids. Young adults do not seem interested in these games so I think the success of Zelda has a lot to do with successful age group marketing. Being available on a handheld was a big plus. Being acceptable to parents is also a huge plus. Game developers don't seem to notice that Nintendo has made a fortune with games that parents will buy. Zelda has certainly benefited from that.
I think that most adult games like Psychonauts should be considered niche games and they will never appeal to a mass market like Zelda.
Gameplay should be simple I think. I remember trying to play the Spiderman game and thinking that the swinging was like some kind of weird physics test. If gameplay is to complex then people get irritated. The point of a game is to be able to kill the monster with 10 hits from your sword. 5 hits... the game is to easy, 15 hits the game is to hard and I have better things to do!
Posted By: Joozey

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/28/08 23:13

One of the greatest parts in zelda for me was the fact that, when you got the bombs, you could finaly go back to that crack in the wall you found at the very beginning of the game to get an extra heart container...

... I did not play psychonauts though .
Posted By: DavidLancaster

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/28/08 23:40

Quote:

im not sure about any of the games other than zelda and super metroid, and i think what makes them so successful is the non linearity (not in the sense that you can do whatever you want) but there are loads of side quests... and they arent random quests, they all have something to do with the story, or have stories of there own.



May I ask what specific side quests are you thinking of, are they optional, how do they tie in with the story?

Quote:

One of the greatest parts in zelda for me was the fact that, when you got the bombs, you could finally go back to that crack in the wall you found at the very beginning of the game to get an extra heart container...



Which apparently is one of the key things to an indepth tool system and making the world feel more lasting and immersive.

@Chrisitan - I think that's a great point, sitting through a complex story, or skipping it and not understanding what was going on. And frustration with the control scheme I think is very important too. Psychonauts was a very innovative game, at the beginning I felt the story was too drawn out and I just wanted to get into the action, as unique ideas the tools at times it felt like I had to put in extra effort to understand and use them.

Caitlyn showed me this article a while back, which is probably one of the more memorable articles I've read on a game (by the guy who was heavily involved with Goldeneye 64):

http://www.zoonami.com/intelligence/surveillance/ocarina_of_time.php
Posted By: DavidLancaster

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/29/08 07:27

Has anyone played Cavestory? It's a free downloadable game, just google it.

It's a PC game, very very good gameplay, imo on par with Super Metriod. It's the sort of game which proves you don't need great art resources to make a great game, just your imagination, skills and time.
Posted By: christian

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/29/08 08:19

Sorry, I think you asked for specifics and I gave you game philosophy.
I have not played a Zelda game in a while but these are the aspects I think were great:
the collection of unique weapons that were relevant and useful. In many games the intermediate levels are just power ups that do not seem relevant to fighting the level boss. the gradual collection of weapons I think kept the player engaged. I especially like the hook shot and of course bombs are always good. The controls were usually very simple, you did not have to learn new controls for each weapon.
It seems that you are interested in making this type game so here are some thoughts on what might make this type of game better:
Increase the NPC AI. One of the great things about the Call of Duty series is the way the NPCs have improved. Now the enemies run away, hide,return, attack and the squads seem to provide real back up Increasing the AI in a any game would be a real improvement. Storyline branching. If the character choices have an impact on the story line then it would be a much more immersive experience.
Posted By: FBL

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/29/08 12:20

Why zelda was more successful?
Commercials and console packs including the game.

EVERYBODY knows Zelda - next to nobody has ever heard of Psychonauts.
Posted By: Pappenheimer

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/29/08 12:49

You can download a demo of Psychonauts at Steam! Its definitely worth a try!
Posted By: JetpackMonkey

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/29/08 14:50

Well, Zelda's a huge franchise that has historically been the killer app for every new Nintendo platform!

Psychonauts was criticized for its somewhat flat platforming and repetitive gameplay scenarios but praised for its unique design, original story and wild creativity. Also, by the time it was released, Platforming was on its way out. it was the big thing when they were developing it, but the genre sort of ran out of gasoline by the time it was released.

BG&E is all around genius with fun and diverse gameplay and a great story. I think BG&E borrowed heavily from Zelda, even though it didn't have the puzzle depth that Zelda has. I'm surprised with Ubisoft's good name and PR machine that BG&E wasn't better received in the public.

Both were marketed poorly, especially Psychonauts. Definitely get it on steam like Achim says, or gamesload.

But then again, mediocrity can be pretty popular. Brainless Hollywood movies are far more successful than less hyped independent or small studio films, McDonalds and The Olive Garden outsell smaller better quality restaurants, etc etc.

Not that Zelda is the McDonalds of videogames!
Posted By: Joozey

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/29/08 15:46

Not to ruin the fun, but let's try to keep it on original topic for once

Quote:

There's probably a whole bunch of reasons why they didn't succeed, marketing, too high budget etc. But what I'm interested in focusing on is actually the gameplay itself, the immersive experience.



Posted By: Orange Brat

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 03/29/08 16:01

Psychonauts was criticized a bit when it came out, but it's stature is starting to grow. I see it mentioned in articles from time to time about little games that are great (and now cheap), and the original criticisms seem to be waning. It's become a bit of a cult classic in gaming which isn't surprising since it's from the creator of Grim Fandango. It's $10 for the full game now if you can find it.
Posted By: Blink

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 04/05/08 01:43

One thing that made Zelda(the entire series), such a great game was the replay factor, especially during the actual game. As an example, being able to access previously inaccessable areas when you find a new tool, awesome, being able to see your character use new weapons making battles easier and gaining new abilities. That formula has been successful for action games like tomb raider, legend of gaia as well, though not as popular, still very exciting games. The "Nintendo" formula has a lot of elements, starting with player character likability. they make sure you really like the character, and fall for his story, make it personal so you can relate, then his mission is always a noble one. then the action is usually fast and furious,lol. the entire package seems to come together in a way that appeals to everyone that plays. David, I got that feeling from watching the video of your game with the girl with the staff-like weapon and the spells. That game had the elements i saw in Zelda. I really liked the character, and wanted to see more. I hope my opinions are helpful, and David, if i could suggest, release that game with the girl, she has franchise written all over her!
Posted By: Dazz

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 04/07/08 13:23

I think it's because the zelda franchise had already been started and it's gameplay was know for a long time, Psychonauts as an exaple took a whole other way in reinventing gameplay, so noone kwew what to expect. Also, marketing is nowadays one of the most important ways of announcing your game to the public. Psychonauts just didn't have enough PR \:\(
Posted By: Blink

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 04/07/08 21:36

That is how it goes for great games that unfortunately, dont do well in sales, the marketing dooms them. thats what happened to Ape Escape, an awesome game with original gameplay features, the first game for the psone to use both analog sticks for a game. and that is the same thing that doomed the sega saturn and dreamcast in the u.s. the saturn was selling strong in japan for 2 years after the u.s one failed.
Posted By: sueds

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 04/09/08 20:38

as christian said zelda is really straight forward so everybody can immerse in it. The thing before zelda £ on super nintendo, zelda wasn't so famous in europe or us . Well know by gamer but like any other good game. When you have one success for advert and great and simple gameplay it always work look at metal gear the msx version were unknown. But marketing is necessary. I did not like metroid prime ( too linear, too boring ) but when a game start being pretty famous most of people buy it for curioity or advert or whatever reason. Most of people don't know if the game is good or not. It seems nice because I heard of it from somwhere but I don't really know what I'm buying ( I made that mistake for the wii). That the problem, today gamers don't lead the market so a game industry is leading by non gamer and the gameplay and innovation become less important than advert and license.
Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Why was Zelda more successful than Psychonauts - 04/09/08 22:24

I don't think the last few Zelda games are as good as the older games of that series, just like the last few Mario games. They've really dumbed down some of the greatest game series just to make them more appealing to the mainstream.

The quality and greatness of Cave Story is nostalgia for the most part, but it also simply has great oldschool graphics and simple but at the same time deep and sometimes quite challenging gameplay. A lot of people may say that it looks terribly outdated, but they don't quite understand that the funny thing is that that really doesn't matter at all. At the same time it's quite a niche game though because of all that.

Same story, different game; Why is the game Soldat as popular as it is? Isn't it just 2d graphics and not so great looking effects? Wrong, it's perfect for what it gives experience-wise. Off course the gameplay itself is excellent too, a game that doesn't have good gameplay won't become popular very quickly.

Most of the games mentioned in this thread do a lot of things the 'good way'. I'm not talking about a 'x-factor' kind of thing here, a lot of these titles simply are very good games. I wouldn't ever have thought The Sims would become as popular as it is, but it's like someone said here before; the greatest games aren't always the most popular.

Lol, games like World of Warcraft are actually a disgrace to the gaming world.
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