remodelling after image: copyright violation?

Posted By: LukasPanic

remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/04/06 18:43

Lets say I have an Image of a model thats for sale and I like what I see on it. Instead of buying the object I decide to remodel it from scratch and make it look just like the object on the picture. I use my own software and my own textures, all I have from the originial is the image from the website that sells it.

Do I violate copyright or anything else with that?
Posted By: Blattsalat

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/04/06 18:59

yes
Posted By: phil3d

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/04/06 19:40

depends on the model i think. when it's an unique model and the concept and design have copyrights then yes.
Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/06/06 11:39

Euhm, yes, you violate copyrights here, you can't simply mimic other people's models because you don't like to pay for that exact model. :smirkL If it's really a 1 : 1 mimic, then you'd be in trouble ...

Cheers
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/09/06 15:16

Ok stop...

If you completely reproduce the model by yourself without using the original data in any way, you are not violating any copyrights. Just like if i paint a copy of a painting, i can still sell it it as long as i dont claim it as a work by the original artist (that would be forgery). Copyright is pretty flexible when itcomes to artwork.
Posted By: fastlane69

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/11/06 19:48

Wrong.
Copyright is absoulutely NOT flexible when it comes to artwork.
This is exactly what copyright is intended to protect: the ability of a person to commercialize their own work and prevent others from commercially benefiting from their works without their permission.

Bottom Line: The only person that has the right to reproduce a work is the copyright holder. Period.


Quote:


Title 17, Chapter 5: Copyright Infringement and Remedies
§ 501. Infringement of copyright3
(a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be.
[...]


§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works36
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
[...]





If you don't believe this, handpaint a picture of Mario, put it on a T-shirt, and sell them in front of Nintendo's office... see what happens.
Posted By: JetpackMonkey

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/11/06 20:02

What ISN'T illegal is to be inspired by that model, figure out what you like about it, and make something similar, made with your own sense of design-- chances are it will be better than an attempt at a straight copy, because you allow yourself some creative leeway, maybe yours will be even better.

It will make your project more original looking-- who wants off-the-shelf artwork in a new game? It's more satisfying too!
Posted By: Captain_Kiyaku

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/12/06 09:04

i think its ok to copy it when you just use the original image as inspiration. Cause you can even do fanrts without braking any laws, right? So why not redesign a model.
There was even someone who made Ifrit and Tidus from final fantasy, and as long as you say the idea is not from you and when you dont sell it, its totally okay.

but jetpack is right anywayx, do your own models, it gives your game an unique style.
Posted By: ventilator

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/12/06 09:10

i think this has more to do with trademarks than with copyright. so if you imitate a non-trademarked model of blattsalat, andvari or dan silverman it shouldn't be a problem since if you just model from an image there is no way you could get a 1:1 copy anyway.
Posted By: fastlane69

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/12/06 15:13

Fan art, like Fan Websites, more often than not violate copyright. The fact that they aren't prosecuted is a separate issue all toghther. The Fair Use clause could allow you to copy and use fan-art as a training exercise... it would even allow you to post it online so you could show off your skills. But the second that it comes close to a commercial effort, say with adware or using Mario to advertise your freelance for-pay modeling skills, it will infringe Nintendo copyright.


Note that copyright makes no distinction as to what a "copy" is. This is up to the copyright owner to feel that it's a copy and a lawyer to argue that it is and voila! ...it's a copy.

Stay on the safe side of the law: be original.
Posted By: MadMark

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/19/06 00:10

I am not a lawyer, but I have worked with some in the tech industry. You should consult with one if you are going to produce something that is SO similar that it cannot be distinguished from the original.

From http://www.gillhams.com/dict/copyright.cfm (I believe this UK based firm operates globally)
"Copyright is one of the central branches of the law of intellectual property. The law of copyright gives an owner the exclusive right to prevent reproduction of certain works by others. Copyright provides owners with some element of control over the exploitation of their works. Copyright protection applies automatically from the moment the work comes into existence and subsists usually for at least 50 years. Copyright does not extend to ideas, or schemes, or systems or methods; it is confined to their expression - that is the form in which they appear either on a page or the form in which they are otherwise recorded."

For US specific information: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci

I can't recall the exact formula for factoring this, but I believe that you would have to have 70% original material in the object in question to have it ranked as an original work.

Now, if you see an object or a picture of an object, and model it on your own, using your own tools, and your own skills, it is in fact a NEW ORIGINAL. As long as it is not an exact copy of the original, it is in itself, unique. Otherwise, every model of every real life object could be considered a breach of copyright.

If you create for instance, a starship that consists of a saucer, a series of tubes, and arrange them in such away that they resemble StarTrek-style ships, well then you are moving into trademark territory. If you decide "Hey, I'm going to call this tube and saucer ship ENTERPRISE" then you are cooking up a nice little litigation stew.

In my opinion (and it is only an opinion) it is fair use to take inspiration from the objects, pictures and ideas that you find wherever you find them. Nintendo does not have exclusive rights to all likenesses of a fat little Italian guy with a moustache. Just make him somewhat unique, don't call him Mario, and don't mimic the gameplay and events that Mario has gone through, and you can pretty much do what you will with the idea. IDEAS are not copyrighted. They can be pateneted, though, if sufficiently documented.

Now, if you take a model, re-skin it, and call it your own, you again have a problem. Take the model apart, make your own structure to create the model, generate a skin for it on your own, and you have a new model. It's shape and construction are not the same.

Copyright is a sticky, tricky and confusing topic. I can't stress enough the importance of giving credit where credit is due, even if for inspiration, and for creating your own models. Take lessons where ever you find them, inspiration from all who inspire, and money from anyone who dares to do anything similar!

Good links:
http://www.ncte.org/pubs/chron/highlights%5C122872.htm
http://www.lawmart.com/searches/difference.htm

Just my 2¢ (Wish I could trademark that little penny symbol...)
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/19/06 20:07

Quote:

Wrong.
Copyright is absoulutely NOT flexible when it comes to artwork.
This is exactly what copyright is intended to protect: the ability of a person to commercialize their own work and prevent others from commercially benefiting from their works without their permission.

Bottom Line: The only person that has the right to reproduce a work is the copyright holder. Period.


Quote:


Title 17, Chapter 5: Copyright Infringement and Remedies
§ 501. Infringement of copyright3
(a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be.
[...]


§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works36
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
[...]





If you don't believe this, handpaint a picture of Mario, put it on a T-shirt, and sell them in front of Nintendo's office... see what happens.




You extrmem example is silly. But, you can indeed handpaint a picture of mario and sell it as your own artwork.

Even more interesting, its perfectly legal to take a photograph of ANOTHER photograph, and claim it as your own work and sell it as such. This has been done by at least one notorius photographer, and he hasnt been stopped legally.

So yes, copyright is indeed flexible when it comes to actual artwork. You can copy whatever you want and sell it as your own work, as long as you didnt use mechanical measn to make a carbon copy of copyrighted art. This doesnt mean you can use it promote your products or store or whatnot.
Posted By: fastlane69

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 06/20/06 16:51

I consider this a serious issue for all us game developers and thus have forwarded all our questions to my IP lawyer for official advice. This should clear up the issue a bit.
Until I get the response, here are my interpretations and opinions on US Copyright Law:

Quote:

But, you can indeed handpaint a picture of mario and sell it as your own artwork.




I guarantee you that you can't. Remember, the basis of Copyright law is to protect the copyright owners ability to make money off their product and protect the IP reputation. In your example, if you handpaint a character that is clearly based on Mario, then people may come to you instead of Nintendo to buy Mario stuff (hurts Nintendos ability to make money) and based on your artistic skills, people might think less of the Mario character because you drew him poorly (hurts the Nintendo's reputation).

Here's an example from last year on what Nintendo considers infringement:

Nintendo warns Wiki

Quote:

This has been done by at least one notorius photographer, and he hasnt been stopped legally.





Just because the original artist decided not to enforce his copyright does not mean that there wasn't infringement. Since a photograph of another photograph is clearly a copy, then this is infringment IMO. If this was used for a newspaper article or educational, it would fall under "fair use" and that is legal.

Beside, here you have clearly contradicted yourself for a photograph of a photograph is clearly a carbon-copy through mechanical means and yet you claim this is not infringement.

Consider this personal example, Matt: You posted hand drawings on the boards a while back. By your reasoning, it would be legal for me to take a photograph of my screen with that picture displayed, crop all or any portion of my photograph so that only your hand drawing shows, transfer this to a t-shirt, and sell this t-shirt with your drawing on it with 100% of the profits coming to me. Doesn't this sound unfair to you?

Quote:

You can copy whatever you want and sell it as your own work, as long as you didnt use mechanical measn to make a carbon copy of copyrighted art.




US Copyright Office Infringement FAQ

US Copyright law makes no such distinction about how a copy is made, only that the copy exists.
Posted By: fastlane69

Straight from an IP lawyer - 06/27/06 16:06

Question Posed:

1) If I take a photo of a copyrighted photo, who owns the copyright? So for example, can I take a photo of an Ansel Adams picture, put it on a T-shirt and sell it as my own and/or keep all profits?
2) Does copyright make any distinction as to HOW the copy was made? In other words, if I hand draw say Nintendo’s Mario character (without it being 70% original), does that give me copyright to use my hand-drawn mario? Is this different if I take a picture, have someone else do it, or use a Xerox machine?
3) Can you comment on this quote: “So yes, copyright is indeed flexible when it comes to actual artwork. You can copy whatever you want and sell it as your own work, as long as you didnt use mechanical measn to make a carbon copy of copyrighted art.”


Answer Given by Tom Humphrey of Woods, Herron, and Evans (Cincinnati, OH, USA):

A photo (or T-shirt) of a copyrighted work is what we call a derivative work of the original. The same is true of a hand-drawn rendering that is 70% original but 30% elements of the original. If there is any originality in the derivative work (lighting, color blending, the setting that the original is placed in, or more extensive elements) then there can be copyright protection in those original aspects that prevents anyone from copying them. However, the copyright rights in the original (photo, Mario character) includes the exclusive right to create derivative works. Hence, it is a copyright infringement to create a derivative work of a prior work if it is still in copyright. Statement (3) is clearly false in view of what I've explained above.

Note that there are also trademark issues with characters such as Mario (he is a trademark of Nintendo in addition to protected copyrighted work, just like Tony the Tiger, Toucan Sam, etc. etc.) that stand apart from copyright and create additional infringement problems in your scenario.
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: Straight from an IP lawyer - 06/28/06 21:36

I'm really sure you have an IP lawyer on retainer..

Although, you are probably right in the circumstances discussed above, however, what about something like this:

you take an artistic photo of posters on a building wall in a city street. It's your photograph of a real place, but conaints images that are probably copyrighted..what's the answer here, are you infringing on the indivudual copyrights?

This seems absurd, because it then limits what part of the world an artist (or anyone) can document/represent.

The same argument can be extended I think, to a more general case.
Posted By: fastlane69

Re: Straight from an IP lawyer - 07/03/06 23:17

Quote:

but conaints images that are probably copyrighted




My interpretation is yes, but it's all up to copyright holder to sue. So it's very unlikely you will ever get prosecuted, though the chances are directly correlated to the popularity of your work.

You can often see an example of this on TV. Several times, you will see someone’s T-Shirt pixilated out so you can read what's underneath. Sometimes this is because of obscenities but most times it's because it has some copyrighted work underneath or some brand name and the TV show doesn't have the rights to transmit the T-Shirt work (transmission is a copy after all).

Quote:

I'm really sure you have an IP lawyer on retainer..




I better or else I'll have to check where that money is going!
I grant you it doesn't make sense to have one on the scale you operate Matt, but my project demands it. I've been working with Tom since day one of my MMUSCLE project to make sure that I protect myself and the future of my project and he is worth every penny that man is.
Posted By: Paul_L_Ming

Re: Straight from an IP lawyer - 07/09/06 03:34

Quote:

I'm really sure you have an IP lawyer on retainer..

Although, you are probably right in the circumstances discussed above, however, what about something like this:

you take an artistic photo of posters on a building wall in a city street. It's your photograph of a real place, but conaints images that are probably copyrighted..what's the answer here, are you infringing on the indivudual copyrights?

This seems absurd, because it then limits what part of the world an artist (or anyone) can document/represent.

The same argument can be extended I think, to a more general case.




No...probably. If the picture you took is "artistic" in it's own merrit, and the posters simply are a *part* of it (say, the focus is on a homeless woman dressed in rags, pushing a cart with garbage bags in it, as she moves down the sidewalk in front of the wall with the posters), then no. No copyright infringement. That said, there is nothing to stop Joe Blow who is the artist of one of the posters from suing you...but the case would proably get dismissed during the prelims (the biggest problem with US law; you can sue anyone for *any* reason). Now, if you walked up to the wall of posters, and took a straight-on shot of, say, two of the posters...the artist Joe Blow might have more luck in suing.
Posted By: TFitty_Games

Re: remodelling after image: copyright violation? - 10/14/06 14:47

How would one copyright there work???
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