Who's not afraid of an RTS?

K folks, been a while again, but I'm bax... and without anything I've every worked on (curse you microsoft). Getting down to it, I'm currently working on the design document for an MORTS based on Sengoku era Japan (one of many subjects on which I do alot of hobbyist studying) wherein players raise a "house" and control one of 47 prefectural territories and fight for eventual control of all the others, making "clan" alliances with other houses along the way.

This has all the usual RTS elements: gather resources, raise warriors, diversify your army thru research, and fight for areas containing resources needed to proliferate your forces.

What makes this design unique are the following fun facts form the document:
Players can customize their uchino hadao (house flag), commander unit armor theme (from about 50 templates) and base color for all other units.

The object of the game is to unify Japan (all 47 territories) under your house/clan, idealy by way of superior firepower. This was achieved historically by a lord Oda Nobunaga and his bushi riflemen. Because firepower is the last evolution accoridng to my design, it's assumed that whomever reaches this level first and with the best strategy of takeover will win final victory.
Because it's in realtime, players could spend whole afternoons or even days vieing for control.

The game begins with a totally disharmonious server of up to 12 houses with the potential to raise 1000 man armies (though not historically accurate, I imagine that a server can only take so much abuse) and ends when they have fought, developed, and claned their way to a Japan unified under one clan/house.

Other elements include prompt based clan forming/ (You know like "Lord (name) wishes your house to join (clanname). Y/N" or "Lord (name) has decided that alliance with the (clanname) no longer serves his interest."

Prompt based negotiation ex: "Lord (name) graciously offers peace in exchange for (resource demand). Will you oblige? Y/N".

There will be a subleveled map of Japan's 47 prefectural territories with accurate terrain and climate. 12 Players per server (subject to change pending technical working out).

The list goes on and on, but what I'd like to know is if there are programmers brave enough to take it on? As everywhere here, I can't pay right off the bat, but I am compiling the design document because this and another project in the future are guaranteed successes, which to me means it's a worthy matter with which to approach investors. So pay may or may not be available, you'll just have to faith it out and work with me .

I have worked a dozen projects before (some of which were recently destroyed in a building fire...OY..didnt destroy my comp but the drive corrupted anyway.. good ol HP fireproofing).

I'm correuntly doing 3, including this one. One an animated series I am writing, for which I currently have an investor watching my every move on,

I've signed with another programmer I know on a project that's turning out to be a big sigh...mostly because he's hijacked it away from my design cuz he thinks he knows better game design than me but he's actually warping it and overelaborating it away form the original game.

( He's the only programmer I know personally ...and the only one I know crazy enough to do the project we're doing.. so I have no choice but to put up with it for now.

And then there's this one, whos working title is Sengoku Online. Because whomever joins me gets a huge share, I'd like to bump heads and pull out my resources in order to get an investor onboard, because I dont have the cash, but I know nobody wants to hear "royalty split" anymore, lol. It's like profanity these days.

Heh.. nobody interested..? At least I didn't get baked by a horde of professionals with everything negative to say as so often happens, perhaps it's because I already covered most of what they would say, lol..

Oh well, it'll get done eventually. I suppose I'll have to learn to program C++ myself if I want anything done.

first of all i would at least wait 24hours before complaining about no response

i dont wanna be killjoy but there is one thing bothering me:
quite a time ago shogun total wars flopped for one big reason (here and especially in the states): it was a japanese background story
as much as you wont like what i say now but its unbelievable hard to get something covering this story and theme onto the western market with success. its not impossible but very hard and will be quite often reason enough for publishers to avoid a contract with you.

second and more important:
without having at least one basic prototype of your idea playable i dounbt any serious coder will even think about joining you. you are in a very bad position so you will have to invest lots of work to make up this minus points when fishing for crew!

btw.: its easy to get the interest of some investors. thas no issue, thats their job. it way much harder to get their money and a decent contract

cheers

A programmer brave enough? HAHAHAHAHAH, you're not getting people to join you as we see what you're like with a line like that.

@ FoxHound

o_O WELL..typically, RTSs are sort of avoided like the plague, mostly because they're AI intensive...so much so that every other place I've been to has had pages and pages of "It's too harddd" and " That's alot of programming..I can't do it". I would imagine something more advanced would have even fewer takers. As I've been a 3DGS User and patron of this place for a while, I tend to think there are far more men than mice scripters .

I use the phrasing brave enough, because I've yet to meet one willing to take on the work. This, however, says nothing much about me. -_o Anybody here who knows me (comprising about 3 developers and a couple other programmers who've been here a while) knows I'm not such a bad guy, though. I'm sorry if my cheesiness offends you:) (but dont expect me to commit suicide in apology ).

@ Blaatsalat

Ey bro, been a good while.

I hear what you're sayin about the difficulty of reaching western society with eastern themes, buuuut:

If it weren't for the marketing, and the cheesy inclusion on Jean Reno in Part 3, Onimusha shouldve failed as well. Also..I don't plan to make it strongly themed, not so much so that it's unapproachable by westerners just not malignantly innaccurate.

Anyone with a samurai obsession, love of true war strategy, desire for simulated conquest, or who has the capacity to spend hours playing any given game online, would at least try it.

Also: No programmer besides the greedy bloodsucker I work with who'll just try stealing my idea from under my pen when it gets somewhere (meant in the nicest possible way if he's reading )= No demo capacity...as I am a graphic artist... I'm all visual.. ALL visual.. total right brainer.. Annnd I DO..or DID plan to share a design document once completed (as I do want to be taken seriously ). It Isn't quite done, bout another week or so before everything's worked out..buut I take my work and my brainchildren seriously.

Also.. maybe I shoulda waited a day or two before I said anything, lol. It seems not only didn't I get any sort of related inquiries, I got exactly what I wanted to avoid getting.

It's ok though, I'm a walking talking jynx, lol. If I havent already, I'll take take your criticisms into consideration .

just a short none topic input:
but i loved to play shogun tw (yes, that single person playing this game on this continent was me )
so you would hit my taste quite good with a samurai game. especially as i think this whole topic and far east history has tons and tons of interesting stuff to show and tell.

so maybe this thing would help:
use the power of the visual and history part of your idea. For example a nice drawn main hero samurai might attract some people. tell a little bit about the story (since its unusual for an rts game this might help as well).

show a beta level (btw battle realms was a good game as well) of some nice asian landscape and building maybe with just the main samurai unit standing or running arround and i am quite sure this would help to change this post more into your expected direction.

make somehing a coder would at least look twice at and maybe say ... "gee, an army of samurai kicks ass...look the melee combat on the battlefield..... and over there some hero special unit. he is preparing for his master dragon slay move...this wavy cherry trees, the high rice grass and swampy deep green land .... this sounds like a good basement for some good rts´ing"


i like the theme a lot so i would take a very close at the game as soon as possible...

cheers

Anyone who right out says "I can't do it" isn't someone you want on your team. Someone who says "I can't do it yet" is. A programmer must be willing to push himself beyond his limits to get better, or he/she will be nothing. Every project I have done has been beyond my grasp when I took the project on but I pushed beyond myself and figured it out. Check out the "go to guy" at your work/school/whatever, he seldom knows how to do something, he usually knows how to figure out how to do it.

This does not excuse your wording. It's childish and makes me think a 10 year old is asking me to join his "leet game krew".

I'm makeing a an rts too and I have made very much yet, but i don't find a modeller.
I think you won't get one too.

mfg destruktor

@FoxHound,

Yeaa that's mostly what I've run into tho. Not here, but elsewhere there have been programmers who just dont want to push themselves. Not downing them or anything, buuut... can't get anything done with just me. Besides..Sir..it was like 60% joke . I'm nothing without a little formality. BTW, I WAS the go-to guy where I'm from ..It's actually how I got good at the many things I do..

@ destruktor

You might be on to something.. and yea I KNOW there's a huge enouhg market, if you just reach out and touch em with the marketing ^_^; there's no shortage of American japanophiles and we all know this, lol. Anyway.. Even tho I'm not a programmer. I COULD..do something of a demo cinematic.. YEA.. most-def.

Good idea, destruktor. You're a genius!

Off I go to do some sound engineering and animation then . Keep the comments comin (hopefully one will actually be interested in contributing but I welcome the nontopical scrutiny).

@FoxHound: You must always become better but starting a project that large without the needed knowledge is its death. You can't rewrite pathfinding over and over again, you can't rewrite ai all the time. rts' are complex games and need complex planning concerning design as well as code and its structure.

Yup, mk_1, and that is why I imagine alot of coders shy away from it (I am working out a tech tree atm, in case you're wondering).

I'll do a cinematic demo once I've done all the modeling and finished the design document.. gotta handle one thing at a time .

Most projects made with 3dgs will never be finished. I shouldn't just say 3dgs as this is true with any engine. I've started several projects that died in the cradle as I lost interest in them. And if I don't have the interest to finish it how much interest will others have to play it?

Kept my interest in my current game, and people love it. So I think I have a pretty good system.

.. And if I don't have the interest to finish it how much interest will others have to play it? ...

this logic fails for me. i wasnt interested in making dinner yesterday. though everyone else was interested in eating it

as far as rts games are difficult to make:
kind of. they are code heavy. you said you fail to have some relyable coder?! so you are missing the most important part of it. seeing it from this point an rts to make will be very tricky for you.

on the other hand are rts games computer friendly and offer lots of optimization possibilities (like no other genre with that scale)

every thought of a heros of might and magic like rts? its kind of strategy but way much easier then rome or c´n c

maybe an option

cheers

I never said I had problems with reliable coders. I'm the only coder I've every worked with. And I'm a total ass to work with let me tell ya!

I like the dinner joke and i see your humor.

As far as an RTS. I don't think I would have a problem making one. Wouldn't be anywhere near as quick as tower was to make, but i didn't work on tower 8 hours a day either.

i am not sure but wasnt iceman the one who was planing the rts game???

maybe i failed to be clear enough but the suggestions where ment for him

this is true..and yes..it will be awesomely difficult for me to make an rts ( or any game for that matter) without a coder.. which is what I'm looking for.. ::sigh::.

@FoxHound

Yes..it would be quite depressing to actually see evry game in the hall of games that never finished . Fortunately, because I conceptualize and develop things before I start them and work them out until they are good ideas and i come up with designs for games that have my foot in them (proverbially), that never happens to me.

I think it happens to most teams because they group up with all skills present..but with no specific design..and they kinda guess until it makes a cohesive whole..which it seldom does if you make it up as you develop.

Recently, tho, I lost everything accept my PC to a housefire..including diskettes, and lots of hard drive data o_O somehow the PC survived but it corrupted and forced me to recover it. At least it didnt burn up..but all that work lost was um..disheartening to say the least ;_;.

Any..how..@Blaatsalat..Yes,

Coming up with a demo without a coder will be awesomely difficult..perhaps I will take a few months and learn C script..and take another few months and learn C++..then another few months to perfect knowledge of both..and then I'll be a grafiker AND coder.. and will never need to beg and plead for either, lol.

:: notices last comment::....@FoxHound.. Every programmer I've ever known had a lil ass to em, I have made my peace with that, lol. But the one I'm stuck with now is a greedy, concept coveting, project hijacking, ass.

He already stole one idea, (and is goung to ruin it because it's a huge concept..but he just has to make it more huge..and he'll do so until it ends up being a game 20 years in the making and so elaborate it'll need a 50 page game manual..which no one will want to read just tp play but you can't tell HIM that).

I could always steal it back, develop and publish it before he has a chance to xD..without all the extracurricular crap he put in, too. Ionno, I'm just sick of dealing with HIM. I'd like to get into game development without having to have my work coveted and ridiculously low profit shares.

I'm not letting him near this one or anyone following this, and this is why he must be replaced with a much more tame coder. Modeling, music, and animation is what I do.. because outside things relating to web development, I can't grasp real programming too well.. certainly not enough to do any sort of game.

Hello everyone I'm new to the 3dgs environment, and just a pilgrim in the new fangled internet world. However I have a bit of a background with programing and design. I hope to be developing my own designs, art and especially the coding of games, teaching myself every aspect, one little piece at a time.

Such doom and gloom in these posts do I see.

To Destruktor, I say to you don't feel sad if you cannot find a graphic artist. Keep looking, keep trying and if you must... learn to do the artwork yourself. Eventually, you will find or can become a modeller. Nothing worthwhile is easy.

ICEman, such trouble in your life and yet, you still continue to plan and create. If I was not so new to the environment I would offer assistance immediately, however I will be around and would be happy to work with someone like you, who can still love to create in the face of such misfortune.

You should drop that programmer ASAP, even if you have to give up the other project. Most likely it will end in failure, if for nothing else the "development environment" is working against you. Also consider if the coder is acting this way before revenues are earned it should indicate the possibilities of consequences that will most surely arise in the future.

When I mention failure I do not mean lost revenue. As Foxhound and mk_1 pointed out, to just complete a project is its own success. And this is what teams and individuals should strive for. Think about the income after you have a product to market.

Try to work with people who have vision, like yourself, they are out there. People who can live without piles of gold but, cannot live without dreams. I'll be around. In a year or two there won't be anything I won't be willing to try to code.

The best way to get the programmers interested is with a well layed out plan of the operations that will make up the world of your game. All aspects that you can think of, for example: rules of play, how the models and objects will interact with the terrain, what type of visual battle dynamics will be displayed... ect.

DONT post your entire plan online, this should be shared between you and your team. If you put everything up publicly then there will be no surprizes in releases of our games!

Your original post was good enough to get an RTS minded coder. You and your programmer should discuss what options are available for your design to be coded. The coder(s) and you will modify the plans with ideas to make it easier for them as well as discover new ideas to implement into the project.

Oh... do try to use simplicity as part of your artistic design. Resuability not only with coded modules but with model objects too, be creatively resourceful. Any theme, Japanese historic or otherwise, could potentially sell if the game is fun to play and easy to learn.

Your most humble, newly noob member
GW

@ Ghostwriter

I do try my best .

In fact, functionality is the bulk of the design document I am working on.

Tho I am not a coder, I realize some of how they think, as applied to when they do work. So I can write for them at least intelligably.

I think you'll find this game to be.. not nearly as complex as your average RTS. The tech tree uses only one element of RTS unit development:

Since it's set in Feudal, almost preindistrial japan, there isnt alot of technology perse, but your units will be multifunctional by design, learning a number of skills, but being swordsman at the core. The way ive designed it, every unit type, with the possible acception of pikemen (theres another name but its a pikeman for all intents and purposes..), will retire whatever specialty weapon they have in use when the enemy gets within a certain distance and draws their sword to fight.

...because I want battles to develop a certain way such that it depends on the use and actual strategic implementation of the different units and I dont want dependency on certain units, or certain units being strong in one situation, cannon fodder in another.

Anyway, thanks for replying.. I am backstepping a little and concentrating on completing the document, but let me know if you're interested in working with me.

Thank you ICEman, if there is any way I can be of assistance I would be glad to help. Although I am limited to just ideas to offer at this point being so new to this medium. Simplified rules can be just as rewarding as complex systems.

I do have a great love of history and was at one time an expert in the real use of ancient weaponry from almost every culture and every era, Chinese weaponry primarily. This will help when I start doing my own animations hopefully.

It is good that you took the time to understand the programmers tools. It is the same reason I say to Destruktor to do some modelling. A simple understanding of all the parts of game development provides a better plan and ability to communicate concepts to the other members of a team.

3DGS offers aspiring designers the ability to learn all phases of development. Everyone should take advantage of this, so they can better understand and coordinate with their team member's needs and limitations.

The words I spoke about your programmer may seem harsh but, it is a cold reality and is not meant as an insult to him in any way. The root of conflict is often frustration. I may be new to 3D and C, but I've programmed in assembler in the past and have worked with many coders overseeing development.

Oh trust me...I have a number of cruel words for him myself, lol.

Anyway tho, I'm jsut focusing on the document, and then emptying my wallet so i can produce a video animation demo.. before I say anything else about it as far as drafting.