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Re: Why God exists
[Re: ISG]
#144919
09/11/07 14:19
09/11/07 14:19
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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I guess people can't handle the idea of no God. They all seem to wonder why would there be a God, when the bible is wrong and total rubbish. Quote:
i could go on liek this for hours... you know what? im geting sick of this. anybody who just stops and thinks about this will realize that there cannot be a god. because god is a paradoxon in himself. its not possible. and if there is a god, he is not allmighty. and if he is not allmighty, he is no god.
You're right. Because God is almighty by (our!?) definition God can not exist. To say the least, it doesn't make sense whatsoever that we can't see/determine or in whatever other way know about his presence. No presence is no presence, why do religious people in general try to make things more complicated than they actually are? "No, he's there ... you uhm just can't see or notice him! Haha!". Right ... whatever.
The same goes for Jesus in a way. I really don't understand why he supposedly died/was killed when he's the "(only) son of God". Doesn't make much sense that you die when your dad is of 'immortal bloodline' so to speak. No matter the purpose of his death, it's simply flawed. Also if Jesus really would have died for 'us', then it would make more sense to publicly commit some sort of suicide.
So anyways ... Jesus has to have been born as a normal human, hence why I believe that if anything, he simply was a charismatic person that rebelled against the system of his time. Again, that is if he existed at all. Because there was a vote on Jesus' character description by the church, I pretty much doubt that he existed in whatever way the bible describes. Besides ... Jesus never wanted to start a religion, control people, distort people and ultimately kill people, right? Religion is the perfect slavery, just look at Scientology and it's 'zero labor cost'-build structures... the funny thing is both religions unconditionally believe in a book as being the truth. (again, why would there be a Christian God, when the bible is wrong? in fact, why would you STILL believe in a Christian God when you know the bible is wrong and do not believe in it? )
Cheers
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Re: Why God exists
[Re: Arathas]
#144922
09/13/07 16:21
09/13/07 16:21
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
You see - god is nothing to be argued about with logic and science, since god is the OPPOSITE of science:
Science only exists with some sort of proof. God only exists without proof.
I agree that it's totally different from science, but that doesn't matter for the question whether or not God exists. It's legit to demand some proof or evidence when people claim extraordinary things. You don't need logic or science, simple curiosity is enough. Not every explanation should be based on science or logic, but when it comes to truth and things we would like to check, then it would sure come in handy even if a lot of people feel the "rules of the game" are incompatible with religions and God.
If God can't ever be measured, why would he exist nonetheless? Why would he be more than just a concept or idea when there is nothing to be really found? There is no other way of detecting God than measuring. Regardless of whether it's feeling God or seeing God, if all this can't be done, he simply can not exist by definition.
It's a bit like trying to find out why there isn't something when you find nothing. All you have at your disposal is this nothingness that says zero about anything other but that nothingness you've found. Logic or no logic, anything you'll say about that something (that isn't there) will be fantasy and your own idea.
Besides, who would ultimately accept an "it's true because we said so" argument?? I don't mean to sound offending, but only people who choose ignorance, hope and fear over knowledge and facts will. That's okey and fine with me, but it doesn't justify any claims about existence,
Cheers
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Re: Why God exists
[Re: PHeMoX]
#144923
09/13/07 23:57
09/13/07 23:57
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134 Netherlands
Joozey
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Quote:
And, in case someone WOULD actually be able to proof he's there, that would be a proof that god does not exist, because it's in his nature not to be measured by men, otherwise he wouldn't be god.
So why wouldn't god be a god when we measure him or when he shows himself to us tomorrow? Do you know his nature? If god had a nature, he wouldn't be god because he wouldn't be almighty.
I don't get this:
Quote:
and can someone finalyl tell me if god can create a stone even he couldnt lift?
Why couldn't he lift a stone? He could also write in one. And that rock in front of jesus's grave... angels aren't THAT strong
Why does god have to be almighty? He too may be bound to nature rules. And the fact that he is bound to that does not mean he couldn't create the world in 7 days. That just requires alot of energy. Just because the bible says so doesn't mean it's true. The bible doesn't nessecarily have to be written by god. People wrote down what they witnessed, and heard, and thought to have seen, and misunderstood and voilà, the bible was finished.
Quote:
i mean, arent you happy to be FREE to do whatever you want? do you want to make yourself dependant of some being you dont know? why do you want that? why do you want to be a slave?beliving in god is slavery.
And what if god has set us free hundreds of years ago, in the medieval times? Sadly the church didn't want to loose power, so they said god would punish us while they knew god was 'gone'. God is actually now watching us grow without interfering. The secret died along with the cardinals and saints controling the church and here we are, not knowing what the answer is. We are slaves of the church, not of god.
[unprovable nonsense] For all we know god put fossiles and bones in the ground himself to prevent us finding the answer too soon. Dinsaurs never have lived on earth! If god would exist, I'd see him as an alien and by my definition of 'alien' he is one. His realm may be outside our universe and stores our souls in devices making us think that we are in heaven. He is harvesting human souls to power something big, something evil. And he uses beëlzebub to prove his innocense!
Oh god, I need to escape from here! [/unprovable nonsense]
Well I can go on hours telling theories (more like stories) of how god could exist. There's an infinite chance that god could exist, but at the same time theres an even more infinite chance that he does not. That's why I don't believe in him. Statistically seen it's more logical to accept that god does not exist, so why do the opposite? If theres a 60% chance that theres 100 dollar in the left box, and 40% chance of 100 dollar in the right box, you would go for the left box right?
Click and join the 3dgs irc community! Room: #3dgs
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Re: Why God exists
[Re: Joozey]
#144924
09/14/07 08:13
09/14/07 08:13
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 20
Arathas
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>>>Besides, who would ultimately accept an "it's true because we said so" argument??
Well, I don't, but although I'm an atheist, I can see the problems occuring with god vs. science.
I am a science-loving man, and thus, I can see where science will not help to improve matters. And furthermore I know that there are things that we don't know and can't say for sure (that is, today. Don't know if we'll discover the meanings of it in the future).
For example, you write:
>>If God can't ever be measured, why would he exist nonetheless?
I think, if he "exists", he just couldn't be measured with human technology. Even if we got a proof that god exists, let's say he drops down another 10 commandments from the sky, we wouldn't know *what* exactly he/she/it is, wouldn't we? And to measure something, you need a device for measurement. And you can't build a device for measering something you don't know anything about -> See, you can't construct a thermometer if you don't know what temperature is at all.
Take the human consciousness: We know that it's there, because it's obvious. We know it BECAUSE we know it (same reasoning as with the "god exists because he exists" theory). But if we look into a persons brain, we only find very small things. We can measure these small things like electrons and so, but we can't measure consciousness itself. Nevertheless you would claim that you're conscious, wouldn't you? ;-)
Maybe god is something very similar to this consciousness, only in a much much bigger way. What's an electron for us may be a planet/star to god. Or a galaxy. Or even a universe. That means we CAN measure the "small" things like a star, a galaxy. But we are not able to see that a quadrillion of quadrillion of galaxies forms a thought of god.
>>>So why wouldn't god be a god when we measure him or when he shows himself to us tomorrow? Do you know his nature?
Hehe, that only proves that humans tend to squeeze god in some human shaped form. When I think of a possible god, I don't spend a single thought on an old, long-bearded man. That's just rubbish made up for children. IF there's some sort of god, a creator able to form worlds, it has to be outside our reach of understanding. Why? Because I wouldn't regard it very god-like if he only was able to create ONE world. ONE single planet. What's with all the other planets, suns, galaxies? If they weren't created by god because god only made earth and humans, then who created all this? Other gods? Would be a very ungodly god if god himselfs depends on others to build a sun for him before he can create the earth that rotates around that sun ...
>>>Why does god have to be almighty? He too may be bound to nature rules.
Then again, it would not be god for me (and almost all other people, I think). You simply cannot be bound to nature rules AND create these rules at the same time. He'd just be another form of life or being and thus mortal. Yes, it MAY BE that "god" is a mortal being, a very powerful being. But it would not be a god then. Just some powerful being.
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Re: Why God exists
[Re: Arathas]
#144925
09/14/07 16:51
09/14/07 16:51
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
I think, if he "exists", he just couldn't be measured with human technology. Even if we got a proof that god exists, let's say he drops down another 10 commandments from the sky, we wouldn't know *what* exactly he/she/it is, wouldn't we?
Yes, but it wouldn't be proof of God's existence per say, perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster dropped it.
Still, it would be a sign that there's something. That's also what I've meant to say. If there are no signs at all, no things pointing in the direction of the existence of God ánd he can't be measured because we can not see, hear or feel him somehow .. thát's when I would conclude that he does or can not exist.
Quote:
And to measure something, you need a device for measurement. And you can't build a device for measering something you don't know anything about -> See, you can't construct a thermometer if you don't know what temperature is at all.
And still people found out about temperature and were able to construct devices to measure it. Not knowing what something is doesn't mean you can't ever know about it, as long as it's noticeable. When people say (or religion dictates) that God can't be measured by definition, how can we know it exists ..ever?
Quote:
>>>Why does god have to be almighty? He too may be bound to nature rules.
Although fictional, this is similar to asking why superheroes have to have special powers to be superheroes. It's a definition thing.
Let's assume for a split second that life was created by an alien scientist billions of years ago, would such an alien be God simply because he created us with his superior technology and/or science? Not by our definition. "Gods" have certain special properties... the most popular seems to be 'almightiness',
Cheers
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Re: Why God exists
[Re: Joozey]
#144926
09/16/07 14:47
09/16/07 14:47
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
Matt_Aufderheide
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Quote:
Why does god have to be almighty? He too may be bound to nature rules
Then he is not God, just a very powerful being. In other words, the notions of omniscience and infinite power are implicit in the 'God' concept.
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Re: Why God exists
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#144927
09/18/07 01:46
09/18/07 01:46
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
Quote:
Why does god have to be almighty? He too may be bound to nature rules
Then he is not God, just a very powerful being. In other words, the notions of omniscience and infinite power are implicit in the 'God' concept.
I would even go further and say that this is exactly why God can not exist. He's our definition, which is suspicious on itself, but apart from a definition he is nothing (or at least equal to nothing which renders him useless).
Cheers
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Re: Why God exists
[Re: PHeMoX]
#144928
09/18/07 06:52
09/18/07 06:52
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 20
Arathas
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Quote:
He's our definition, which is suspicious on itself
Ah, but that's where the holy man will disapprove. It's you (the bloody atheist) who claims that god's only a definition of us. The holy man instead will claim that WE are defined by GOD ... because he created us.
See - there's always two sides of the story. ;-)
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