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Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #46595
05/25/05 08:36
05/25/05 08:36
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 142
England
Ranger1 Offline
Member
Ranger1  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 142
England
Matt,

I appreciate what your saying but you've already suffered the pain of shaders & come out of the other side.


If enough people want shader integration in the toolset then priority should be given to that area.

Also you are suggesting with some justification that the required resources are already available. If that is the case how much work would it involve for conitec to integrate these examples into a working library ??

Not that much... so by the fact this hasn't been done there is obviously a lot more work required to achieve these goal.

So Quid Pro Quo doesn't that mean you r wrong ?


Whilst all Answers are replies not all replies are Answers
Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Locoweed] #46596
05/25/05 11:16
05/25/05 11:16
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 609
Rattenfängerstadt
Rigoletto Offline
Developer
Rigoletto  Offline
Developer

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 609
Rattenfängerstadt
Hi,

this works for me:

When i have enough, spent you time with another work, texturing, scripting, or just reading a book. Forgot all you know about shaders or all what you think to know about shaders. Then try it again very simple. It works.

I wanted to give up too, and know what you mean. Just pause and try it again.

Maybe my little tuts helps: Shaders

Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Ranger1] #46597
05/25/05 11:18
05/25/05 11:18
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
M
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
Expert
Matt_Aufderheide  Offline
Expert
M

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
well its certainly possible Conitec doesn't want to integrate community developed shaders into their product, for a variety of reasons-- one being that shaders are of varying quality..my shaders for instance, are probably not highly optimized, and can only run on high-end hardware. Also, there is the question of propety, would Conitec want to pay poeple to include their shaders, or would developers let them be included for free? Perhaps Conitec figures that for now they should let the community handle it, and concentrate on other things.

Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #46598
05/25/05 11:43
05/25/05 11:43
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 142
England
Ranger1 Offline
Member
Ranger1  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 142
England
Matt,

Yep I agree with you completely

but even given

Quote:

We've listed below features that are scheduled for development in the next time. Features and priorities are mainly based on the suggestions on the future forum and the beta forum. Please note: the order of the features given here is not necessarily the order of implementation. The list is not complete, and everything is subject to change in priority, or even to removal. So it's a bad idea to rely your game upon future features. Take only into account what's already available in the current version.





the Particles,Shader and Material Editor

Has been on the forecast for well over a year.

Perhaps if Conitec were to say that the editor won't be out in the next 12 months that would galvanize people to learn rather than like myself hanging on until it becomes 'plug & play'

@Rigoletto thanks for the Link


Whilst all Answers are replies not all replies are Answers
Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Ranger1] #46599
05/25/05 18:30
05/25/05 18:30
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,298
Beverly, Massachusetts
Rhuarc Offline
Expert
Rhuarc  Offline
Expert

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,298
Beverly, Massachusetts
You'll have to forgive me for digging out my soapbox for the occasion, but it has to be said....

Quite frankly, a post like this pisses me off. Many people here have been VERY kind to freely give away very good shaders in the first place. There is a shader for almost any general need out there in most cases. Because you don't understand them yourself is the last reason you should turn and point a finger at those who have been spending their time and effort to develop these shaders for the community and help others understand how to use them. I've submitted quite a few shaders myself, and it sure doesn't show any appreciation when someone steps up and begins flaming us for not teaching the community how to do shader programming when we've been sharing shaders, helping others get them working as we have time, and even writing a few tutorials. I've been beginning to prepare a free shader package designed to work among all tested GPUs; perhaps I should just forget it if this is the thanks we get for helping, evidently it isn't what people are wanting- so why bother?

Nothing that explains how to use shaders? how about these? ALL of these are entry-level tutorials
http://www.coniserver.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=476539&an=0&page=0#476539
http://www.coniserver.net/wiki/wikisecure/index.php/SimplePixelShaderTutorial
http://www.coniserver.net/wiki/wikisecure/index.php/SimpleFixedFunctionTutorial
http://www.coniserver.net/wiki/wikisecure/index.php/AdvancedFixedFunctionTutorial

Among many many others.

Don't tell me we haven't tried to help you learn.


I no longer post on these forums, keep in touch with me via:
Linkedin.com
My MSDN blog
Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Ranger1] #46600
05/25/05 18:58
05/25/05 18:58
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,543
Germany
A
Alexander Esslinger Offline
Senior Developer
Alexander Esslinger  Offline
Senior Developer
A

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,543
Germany
Yes, after all there is a shader editor / library planed. Making a good one needs some time and investigation, and all conitec members are working hard on there stuff. For example I don't think you would like Marco to drop developing the map-compiler or JCL to stop working on the engine, do you? ...and I think you also don't want to have a beta product with many bugs to be released.

Developing such things need time, but that doesn't mean it is not worked on them!

Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Rhuarc] #46601
05/25/05 18:59
05/25/05 18:59
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
California
Daedelus Offline
Senior Developer
Daedelus  Offline
Senior Developer

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
California
Quote:

Many people here have been VERY kind to freely give away very good shaders in the first place



I agree.

and to quote myself:
Quote:

The more, the better.





Quote:

I've been beginning to prepare a free shader package designed to work among all tested GPUs




That would be fantastic! Please do continue this.
And for what its worth I would definitely be interested and be quite grateful to you I think all of us here would.


Formula Games - A place to buy and sell Indie games.
Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Rhuarc] #46602
05/25/05 19:27
05/25/05 19:27
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,628
IL,US
FeiHongJr Offline
Expert
FeiHongJr  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,628
IL,US
Quote:

I've been beginning to prepare a free shader package designed to work among all tested GPUs; perhaps I should just forget it if this is the thanks we get for helping, evidently it isn't what people are wanting- so why bother?





I want I think that everything that everyone has done and contributed to the community is great and appreciate the work and effort put in no matter what it may be from a model of a crate to a fully functional game. Anyways i just want to say that there are indeed many people gratefull to what has been given to the community allready, And i cant be positive but think that everyone who has posted here feels the same way. I personally am not saying nothing against whats available allready but as Daedelus said the more the better


http://www.freewebs.com/otama_syndicate/index.htm - Each master to his own technique.

- Not me said the bee, Nor I said the fly.
Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Rhuarc] #46603
05/26/05 00:29
05/26/05 00:29
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,959
US
G
Grimber Offline
Expert
Grimber  Offline
Expert
G

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,959
US
I think people are taking this thread the wrong way.

I don't think those that know shaders and have contributed allot of work to the community know just how appreciated they are for thier efforts.

being said though, since I don't understand shaders, I havn't went and bought the books on shaders ( nor can afford to), and I don't want to have to play 50k questions and pester people just to do some minor tweaks ( like change how a light source effects something) to amke a shader fit my projects, I don't think I can justify the right to useing them.

Using a preset library of effects are also out of the question for the same reasons above.

Re: Enough is Enough [Re: Grimber] #46604
05/26/05 15:26
05/26/05 15:26
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,256
Oz
L
Locoweed Offline OP
Expert
Locoweed  Offline OP
Expert
L

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,256
Oz
Hi,

This was most certainly not to say there haven't been some great shader contributions made to the community. I definately wasn't trying to say that. I was refering to step-by-step tutorials that introduce people in to shader script.

Let's take a simple shader that that was contributed for example.

Code:
 

material mtl_vegetation
{
event=mtl_vegetation_init;
effect=
"
texture entSkin1;
dword mtlSkill1;

technique vegetation
{
pass p0
{
Texture[0]=<entSkin1>;
ZWriteEnable=True;
AlphaBlendEnable=False;
AlphaTestEnable=True;
AlphaRef=<mtlSkill1>;
AlphaFunc=Greater;
CullMode=CCW;

ColorArg1[0]=Texture;
ColorOp[0]=Modulate2X;
ColorArg2[0]=Diffuse;
}
}
technique fallback{pass p0{}}
";
}



We have the decalrations:

texture entSkin1;

What does texture mean and how do I use multiple skins?


dword mtlSkill1;

What does dword mean and how do I define multiple skills?


technique vegetation


What is a technique and how do I add multiple techniques into a shader?

pass p0

What is a pass and how do I do multiple passes?

Texture[0]=<entSkin1>;
ZWriteEnable=True;
AlphaBlendEnable=False;
AlphaTestEnable=True;
AlphaRef=<mtlSkill1>;
AlphaFunc=Greater;
CullMode=CCW;

What do all these shader commands mean and what are they doing in this code?

ColorArg1[0]=Texture;
ColorOp[0]=Modulate2X;
ColorArg2[0]=Diffuse;

What do these commands mean? What is Modulate2X and what is difusse and how do they effect the shader?

technique fallback{pass p0{}}

What is this line of code doing? Is this similar to a while(1)-wait(1) loop or is this a fallback of somekind for cards that can't handle this shader?

This is more the type of tutorials that are missing.

What is the structure for lets say a vertex shader output?

Code:
 
struct VS_OUTPUT
{
// declarations
};

VS_OUTPUT main_vs(parameters passed defined in declarations)
{
VS_OUTPUT Out ; // define the ouput
// Change output
return Out; // return output
}



Why exactly are we defining things like:

float4x4 matWorldViewProj;
float4x4 matWorld;
float4x4 matViewInv;

float3x3 WldToTan;

float4 vecViewPos;
float4 vecViewDir;

float4 vecLight;
float4 vecLightPos[8];
float4 vecLightColor[8];

and how to they reference to the objects in the 3DGS world? Such as the camera, the lights, etc. What is a matrix and how does it work?
What do the different matrices affect?

The world matrix - all objects in world space are transformed by this matrix
The view matrix - refers to the position of the camera
The projection matrix - defines how Direct3D projects the 3D scene onto the 2D surface


A tutorial let's say of making a vertex shader from scratch that does some small shader objective. How to define the variables, what do they mean. How to get the input, then change it, then output it and make it work with 3DGS.

I am sorry if I sounded like there has been no shader contributions, because that is not true, but step-by-step shaders covering differents shader types, vs, ps, hlsl, etc and what the commands inside these shaders actually mean and the structure of the shader script itself is what I was refering to.

Possibly it is just too complicated for anyone to explain, but I doubt it. I can look it the script and get a general idea of what is going on, but it would be nice to have some detailed tutorials on the subject. Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone too terribly.

And if there is a tutorial covering something like this for 3DGS, then I really put my foot in my mouth.

Loco

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