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Bible apologetics
#117350
03/14/07 10:30
03/14/07 10:30
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
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When reading the bible, we're finding a set of stories by more than a hundred different authors that were written over a time of more than 1000 years. As can be naturally expected from a collection of this size, the stories contain thousands of historical and logical mistakes and self-contradictions.
Bible apologetics is a challenging game with the goal to a) re-interpret the text in a way that the mistakes and contradictions between the stories disappear, and b) interpret a literal meaning into the text (regardless of how it was really meant). However the attempts at bible apologetics on the internet only cover a small part of the bible mistakes. Even in the very first parts of the bible, Genesis 1 and 2, most of the blunders were not yet addressed by apologists or at least I haven't found them online.
I'm interested in a complete apologetics of Genesis 1 and 2. For instance, at the very beginning of the bible we can read:
"So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it." (in the Hebrew original it's not "expanse" but "vault" as in architecture).
This passage was written in 500 BC in the Babylonian exile, and obviously refers to the Babylonian creation myth where the God Marduk did the same thing (creating a vault and separating the waters below from the waters above). The Babylonians assumed that there must be water above the sky because of it's blue color, and because sometimes it falls down. The vault is needed to keep it up.
So the sentence is true in its historical context. However, today astronomy claims that there is no vault and there is no water above the sky. Astronomy even claims that the earth is a sphere, so there is not even a "below" and "above". So when taken literally, either astronomy is wrong or almost everything in this sentence is wrong today... or am I wrong here? Apologists, to the rescue!
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: jcl]
#117351
03/14/07 12:38
03/14/07 12:38
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NITRO777
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Note that I really dont apologize for anything written in the Bible, so I dont indulge in 'apologetics'. Quote:
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
The firmament is the lower atmosphere. In the creation story God brought water up above to the clouds where the clouds hold the water. Thus he seperated the waters from the waters.
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Astronomy even claims that the earth is a sphere, so there is not even a "below" and "above
In that case there is no 'below' or 'above' anywhere because all space throughout the universe is relative. I dont think too much about it though or else I would have trouble walking up the stairs.  ...is the universe falling down or up?
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This passage was written in 500 BC in the Babylonian exile
Perhaps a copy, but the original story was passed down verbaly untill Moses finally documented it(mark 12:26,luke 24:27, John 1:45, Romans 10:5,2 Cor 3:15)There is no reason to doubt the Bible tradition untill there is evidence to the contrary.
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Babylonian creation myth where the God Marduk did the same thing (creating a vault and separating the waters below from the waters above).
A lot of these stories are similar because they actually happened, rather than one civilization copying from another.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: jcl]
#117352
03/14/07 12:46
03/14/07 12:46
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Joined: Nov 2004
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South Africa
capanno
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I find it ironic that when religion flaming begins, its always christianity in the spotlight. Why in movies do they keep on say "Jesus Christ", or "for Christs sake"? They will never say "for buddhas sake", or "for the love of allah."
It seems as if satan continuously attacks christians. Why is this? Why does he leave the other religions alone? Well, maybe it is the fact that they are on their way to hell, and he wouldnt risk allowing them to see the truth. Think about this. Satan will never let an athiest experience supernatural stuff. That will mean that there is a spiritual realm. I hope everyone will realize this! There is a saying: the biggest trick the devil pulled was making people believe he doesnt exist. Dear athiest, dont fool yourself. Satan has you exactly where he wants you. If you search for the truth you will find it. I hope that God will open your eyes before its too late.
Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: jcl]
#117353
03/14/07 12:50
03/14/07 12:50
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Joined: Mar 2003
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NITRO777
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Quote:
"So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it." (in the Hebrew original it's not "expanse" but "vault" as in architecture).
--One more point here  ,I used Strongs Concordance , the Hebrew word used here for firmament is raqiya, pronounced raw-kee-yah, it does indeed mean 'expanse' or more literally 'the visible arch of the sky'
I think your source might be interpreting an arch to exclusively be used in architecture.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: NITRO777]
#117354
03/14/07 13:57
03/14/07 13:57
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
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Thanks for the explanation! However, it is not yet fully satisfying. Your concordance translates "raqiya" with: Quote:
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
a) expanse (flat as base, support)
b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above
which is obviously its usual meaning taken from the bible; so the concordance sounds a little like circular reasoning. More interesting would be the meaning of that word outside the bible.
Anyway: I don't fully understand your explanation "God brought water up above to the clouds where the clouds hold the water". I suppose you mean that God evaporated water into clouds. But this is hardly a creation act, nor is it written in the bible. It even contradicts it: the Hebrews certainly knew that clouds are below the sky, not above it; whatever "raqiya" means, all meanings in your concordance agree that it is solid and supporting, so it's not air or clouds; and if it were the "lower atmosphere", then where is the water above it, and why has God made only the lower and not the upper atmosphere?
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: capanno]
#117355
03/14/07 15:02
03/14/07 15:02
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
I find it ironic that when religion flaming begins, its always christianity in the spotlight. Why in movies do they keep on say "Jesus Christ", or "for Christs sake"? They will never say "for buddhas sake", or "for the love of allah."
Basically because they are western movies. Asian and middle-eastern people will curse in a dramatically different way, it's a pure difference of culture. They won't say '[censored]' as a swearword either, they will get very mad though if you say that someone's mother is ugly.
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Dear athiest, dont fool yourself. Satan has you exactly where he wants you. If you search for the truth you will find it. I hope that God will open your eyes before its too late.
Aah, there's the good 'ol 'better believe or burn in hell'-argument.  Well to be honest with you, I'd rather burn in hell for something I have reason to believe in, than believe in something for which there is really no evidence whatsoever and maybe go to heaven. I think it's completely reasonable to demand at least a fair bit of evidence and allknowing as he supposedly is, he would understand this too. Arrogant point of view? Perhaps, but at least it's more reasonable than having blind faith in lies for all we know,
Cheers
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: jcl]
#117356
03/14/07 15:32
03/14/07 15:32
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Joined: Mar 2003
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NITRO777
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Quote:
I suppose you mean that God evaporated water into clouds
Yes thats what I mean.
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But this is hardly a creation act,
It would not need to be a creation act, because water was already created, it was an act of dividing or seperating. Not everything God did at that period had to be creative.
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nor is it written in the bible
Because the Bible is not a scientific manual. However, I believe that it does align itself with science.
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However, it is not yet fully satisfying. Your concordance translates "raqiya" with:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
a) expanse (flat as base, support)
b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
which is obviously its usual meaning taken from the bible; so the concordance sounds a little like circular reasoning. More interesting would be the meaning of that word outside the bible.
The word is definitely NOT referring to a solid formed vault or peice of architecture. The word firmament, as I previously defined it means an "expanse" and that is all. A little more contextual reading reveals this. Notice in the below verse that God put birds in the 'open firmament'. The last time I checked, birds cannot fly through solid vaults  The word 'firmament' below is the same exact Hebrew word.
Quote:
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: jcl]
#117359
03/14/07 17:58
03/14/07 17:58
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Quote:
And what about the other objections - where is the water above the firmament, and why do you assume that God created only half an atmosphere?
No I didnt assume that, anything beyond the firmament is irrelevant to this discussion therefore I am only focusing on the firmament and the 'waters above the firmament'. I didnt see the relevance...maybe you can tell me how the upper atmosphere is relevant to your point? ...oh well, I tried to explain my side the best I could. 
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