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Re: Environment [Re: fogman] #128123
05/07/07 20:16
05/07/07 20:16
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Doug Offline
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Doug  Offline
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A whole page of "facts" but not a single one of them documented.

I'd really be interested in seeing where AGD's is getting data from. This is the first I've heard of either of these (rockets making holes that take 5 years to fill and the earth tilting so much that ships are crashing into rocks). I'm not saying they are made up, but it does sound like "this one web site said that some scientist said...".


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Re: Environment [Re: Doug] #128124
05/07/07 20:37
05/07/07 20:37
Joined: Apr 2005
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Germany
F
fogman Offline
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Quote:


...
So this is sometimes presented as esoteric behavior, but can be exhibited by very simple systems: for example, a ball placed at the crest of a hill might roll into any of several valleys depending on slight differences in initial position...





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect




no science involved
Re: Environment [Re: fogman] #128125
05/07/07 22:25
05/07/07 22:25
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,264
Wellington
Nems Offline

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Wellington
Hiya Doug,

As stated, the info is from publications like 'Time Magazine' and 'National Geographics', both USA produced.I dont recall exactly which one it was, circa 1980 to 83, full featured article.

Axis tilt is from World news at the time, circa 1980 to 81.

Following this, sattelite nav became standard, no more navigating by the stars for big ships.

Re: Environment [Re: fogman] #128126
05/07/07 23:44
05/07/07 23:44
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect






I do think small things can have huge impacts, even if it's just a glass of poison in the Mississippi river. Basically all life is connected through the food chain, so changing one thing will or could have an impact on other things.

I'm not sure if humans caused these huge and ongoing environmental and climatic changes, although we absolutely can't deny the fact that we are influencing our environment negatively.

Cheers


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Re: Environment [Re: PHeMoX] #128127
05/09/07 23:40
05/09/07 23:40
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
Doug Offline
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Doug  Offline
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Quote:

As stated, the info is from publications like 'Time Magazine' and 'National Geographics', both USA produced.I dont recall exactly which one it was, circa 1980 to 83, full featured article.




Trusted publications, both of them (at least back in the 1980's, don't know how they stand today). But I can seem to find a single article in either of them on these subjects.

I'm not say they aren't there, and I'm not accusing you of making anything up, but did you read these articles or are you quoting somebody else who did?


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Re: Environment [Re: Doug] #128128
05/09/07 23:49
05/09/07 23:49
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Doug Offline
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BTW: If you do a google search for: "Time Magazine" rockets ozone
This web thread shows up as the third link.


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Re: Environment [Re: Doug] #128129
05/09/07 23:58
05/09/07 23:58
Joined: Jul 2002
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Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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ratios are quite tricky. one sunk tanker ship can poison sqare miles of the ocean. Imagine if once a day one tanker would sink. sure we have lots of ocean left but for how long.
the "natural rapair" sytem is sloooooow.
if you continue to spill out posion into a river sooner or later it will die. Simply because the regeneration is slower then your poisoning.

if you at the same time continue to cut down whole forrests, getting rid of the co2 wont get easier at all.

i have no doubt that we are [censored] up this planet with a mankind masterplan. and sooner or later its either mother natur or us. and i doubt this is a situation we can win.

cheers


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Re: Environment [Re: Doug] #128130
05/10/07 05:27
05/10/07 05:27
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,264
Wellington
Nems Offline

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Read the article myself a few times and presented it to many people involved in the ozone debate at the time.(Refrigerents were the culpable culprits at that time too)

Found it in a Hospital library when I was a patient in for asthma, Thames Hospital, Coromandel Peninsula, New Zealand and at peoples houses too who subscribed.

Doesnt matter to me if scepticism is prevalent or not, info is delivered, you do what you want with it.

If I was keen to verify a post regarding such an issue, I would hunt down anyone with old hard copies from old subscriptions as it wouldnt seem likely to me that such info would be uploaded to the net due to age and possibly vested interests or write to the HQ of the Publishers themselves.

Essentially the article said a rocket motor burns a hole approximatly 2 miles in diameter that required 5 years to refill. Heaps of supporting evidence with the presentation in both research notes, images, tables etc.
The article spanned 4 or 5 pages which in any publication like those, is a major feature article.

Cheers.

P.S

A quick search threw this up.

An Ode to Ozone

CANADA GREEN PARTY F.Y.I.
The following was taken from Project Censored "THE TOP 25 CENSORED NEWS
STORIES OF 1990" and THE GULF WAR: TRUTH WAS THE FIRST CASUALTY
by Carl Jensen.
This book is published annually and if you wish to get a copy send $10
U.S. to:
CENSORED PUBLICATIONS
Sonoma State University
Rohnert Park, California 94928

NASA AND THE OZONE LAYER

SOURCE: EARTH ISLAND JOURNAL, 3OO Broadway, Suite 28, San Francisco, CA 94133
DATE: Fall 1990
TITLE: "Soviets Say Shuttles Rip Ozone Layer"
AUTHOR: Gar Smith

SOURCE: SSU STAR, Sonoma State University, Rohnert Park, CA 94928
DATE: 5/8/9O
TITLE: "Doc Caldicott Prescribes Medicine'
AUTHOR: Mindi Levine

SOURCE: SAN FRANClSCO CHRONlCLE, 901 Mission St., San Francisco, CA 931O3
DATE: 8/21/9O
TITLE: "Group Says Space Shuttle Damages Earth's Ozone"
AUTHOR: David Sylvester


COMMENTS: Gar Smith, editor of Earth Island Journal, said he was surprised by
the limited coverage given to this story considering the variety of other
problems with NASA's space programs that were being reported during the same
period. "It is worth noting that this story appeared in the European press
over a year before I discovered a reference to it in the London- based South
Magazine." Smith also said that he faxed a press release, citing this story
among others, to daily newspapers, radio and television stations in the San
Francisco Bay Area, as well as to AP, UPl, Reuters, Time Magazine, etc., and
there was no interest in the story. (However, he noted that another writer,
Lenny Siegel, had been working on the story independently and had produced a
l2-page report that was the basis for a story in the San Francisco Chronicle
and an article in Mother Jones magazine.) Smith concludes "The story still has
not penetrated the mainstream press. On December 6, (1990), the AP carried a
story on NASA's plans for '27 Shuttle Flights Set for Next 3 Years' that
carried no mention of the environmental impacts of such flights for the
integrity of the ozone layer."

NASA SPACE SHUTTLES DESTROY THE OZONE SHIELD

"Every time the space shuttle is launched, 250 tons of hydrochloric acid is
released into the air. With each launch, .25% of the ozone is destroyed. So
far, the space shuttle has destroyed 10% of the ozone."
Dr. Helen Caldicott, world renown physician and environmentalist stuns
audiences when she makes that statement in her talks across the country.
A brief article, in a small-circulation environmental publication,
supports Dr. Caldicott charges.
Two Soviet rocket scientists have warned that the solid fuel rocket
boosters used on the space shuttle release 187 tons of ozone destroying
chlorine molecules into the atmosphere with every launch.
Valery Burdakov, co-designer of the Russian "Energiya" rocket engine, also
noted that each shuttle launch produces seven tons of nitrogen (another ozone
depleter), 387 tons of carbon dioxide (a major contributor to the "greenhouse
effect") and 177 tons of aluminum oxide (thought to be linked to Alzheimer's
Disease) before reaching an altitude of 31 miles.
Burdakov also notes that the history of ozone depletion correlates closely
with the increase of chlorine discharged by solid fuel rockets since 1981.
Soviet rockets employ a fuel combination that is 2000 times less damaging than
the shuttle's but which still destroys 1500 tons of ozone per launch.
According to Burdakov and his colleague, Vyacheslav Filin, a single shuttle
launch can destroy as much as 10 million tons of ozone. This means that some
300 shuttle flights could completely destroy the Earth's protective ozone
shield.
All other solid fuel rockets also contribute to ozone destruction. Near the
top of the list are the U.S. Delta rocket (which destroys eight million tons
per launch), the U.S. Titan, and the French Ariane V.
In an article published originally in South, Burdakov warned that, at
present rates of increase, rockets will soon be pouring 100,000 tons of
chlorine and nitrogen into the atmosphere annually. Burdakov has called for
international controls and a phase out of solid fuel rocket technology as well
as a ban on supersonic aircraft flights into the stratosphere.
The extraordinary charges by the Russian scientists were supported by
research done by the Military Toxics Network, headquartered in San Francisco.
Working with the Russian figures and data obtained from NASA, the Network
concluded that significant damage was being done to the ozone layer by the
space shuttle launches.

SSU CENSORED RESEARCHER: DIRK VANWINKLE

web page

Last edited by AGD; 05/10/07 05:44.
Re: Environment [Re: Nems] #128131
05/11/07 00:29
05/11/07 00:29
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
Doug Offline
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Doug  Offline
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Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
So we've gone from National Geographic magazine to a BBS 'zine that didn't make it past its second issue?

The book it quotes is suspect as well (although, honestly I haven't read the entire thing). Back in the 80's and 90's Soviet rocket scientists would say anything to smear the US space program (remember the Cold War? Maybe not...damn I'm old ).

I'm not saying there is no effect from rockets, but I would be surprised if it was a major factor in the ozone holes.


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Re: Environment [Re: Doug] #128132
05/11/07 06:41
05/11/07 06:41
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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Austria
i would be more concerned about farting then rocket holes in the sky. no delta rocket can compare with a night at taco bell!

cheers


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