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You talked about a game that in which the player does everything right and still "looses". I've played a game like that, although I don't remember what it was. There was someone attacking you, and you kept on getting pushed back. But in the end, I still won, so it doesn't count... ^^



Hmm... I remember that Jedi Knight II had a sequence like this, somewhere at around the end of the first third of the game. It had a fight that you couldn't win, but of course nobody told 'ya. I spend all my hard-earned healthcontainers on that one. It was extremely frustrating, especially because I always quit when I saw that I haven't had a chance. In the end, I had to refer to a guide to see that I couldn't win that one. The situation wasn't clear enough, thus it became frustrating (at least for me). The rest of the game was cool, don't get me wrong, but that part? Cool idea, bad execution.



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Error014, i liked what you said about stories. You're totally right. Stories aren't as good as they should be.



Hah, thanks. I seem to have missed the point of the thread, though. I still believe in what I've said. I've toyed with the idea to open a thread to discuss how to develop characters and how to present and write your story so its intruiging, fun and not too boring (right now, I'm struggling in my game to introduce a million things without it ending up as a book ). Any interest in that?


Another interesting aspect about this is the moral dilemma you as a developer are in. Is it actually okay to have the player do something bad? Right now, its pretty much "yes" if we talk about shooting and stealing. You still have to draw a line somewhere, though. If the player stops playing because he can't accept what he does morally, then you lost. You have to find the balance between whats "bad and cool" or "bad and acceptable" as long as there is a fun gameplayexperience and maybe a storybehind it and whats "just bad". Of course, this is different for everyone, but the more extreme you do it, the smaller the targetaudience becomes. Sadly, this is also true for the reverse: If you make it too familyfriendly, self-declared, 13-year old "mature gamers" won't play the game. And thats quite a chunk of the market! That being said... please don't develop games for them.

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Or leave the decision to the player (Fable)



Sure thats possible. But for indydevelopers like us? I doubt it. We can't develop games as big as this, at least not in a reasonable timeframe. I might be all alone on this oen, but you have to take your possibilities into account. Yes, Acknex might (would) be able to power such a game - are we? It's hard enough to make a linear game!

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or have most of the NPCs think you are against them when you are actually for them...



In the right hands, maybe, but it will be a balancing issue from beginning to end. People play games to escape their boring everyday-life. They want to be a cool hero. It's fun to blow things up*, sure, but its even better if people know that you are the hero! I don`t know about you, but I make sure to visit any village in any RPG that I just saved just to hear people telling me I'm awesome. Maybe my ego is surprisingly small, but then again, everyone likes to get praise. I'd hate it if everyone I ever talked to would say "Oh, it's the guy that completely messed up my life!". Thats okay if its one person, sure, but everyone? At least include someone who knows about what the player is doing that encourages him.

GTA... well, one doesn't really feel evil. It's a giant "do-whatever-you-want". Be bad enough and the police is out to get you - until they've got you or until you escaped them. Thats it. I won't see on the news what I've done. Nobody in the city willEVER recognize me. Thats probably a good thing from a gameplay-perspective, but this way, you never really feel like the "bad guy" you are.

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All stories are told. We can only alter them and put them into a new location.



As you've said yourself already: Thats not an excuse for not trying to make up a good story, though! Even if every story might have been told somewhere by someone, there are still concepts that are overused way too much and some that will still feel "fresh". It's easier to make a (game)story about a submarine feel fresh than it is with an abandoned spacestation. One of them was seen a million times. The other oen... not so much. The less often your general scenario and setting is used, the easier it is to create a story that will truly surprise the player. Which is always a good thing. Be honest, aren't you tired of abandoned spacestation?

Okay, I'm done. You may now go on and rip my post apart. Can't wait!

(So... is there interest in a discussion about how to write stories and how to develop characters?)


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*This is not a subliminal message to get you to blow something up

Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!