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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: jcl]
#135823
06/12/07 22:08
06/12/07 22:08
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Quote:
NITRO77: Please watch your language. Foulmouthing and insulting other users will get you banned from this community. Consider this a last warning.
go ahead and ban me, I dont care what you do, since you dont enforce the rules on other forum members, your just showing your hypocrisy. So go ahead and ban me, too bad I couldnt gather all your insulting quotes.
Just because you own this software and forum means nothing to me, you might have inflated views about yourself, and plenty of people around here might want to agree with you to kiss your ass,but you dont impress me at all because I know what you are., and I know what you are not. I also know what this engine is compared to commercial engines.
I never said anything to anyone that they didnt deserve, if fastlane wouldnt have been such a prick the I wouldnt have said what I said, he went after me first. In your fantasy world where you are the boss of everyone on the forum then perhaps you can overlook that. But in the real world yopu have to be accountable for what you say and you cant just ban someone because you dont like what they say
Quote:
Foulmouthing and insulting other users will get you banned
I also dont know what your definition of "foulmouthing and insulting" is, in fastlanes first reply he used the term "bitch list" and I have heard many many other forum users use the word ass and many other swear words. And I found fastlanes sarcasm insulting, but the point is that for some reason you have chosen to single me out, in spite of the fact that your own statements are insulting sometimes on the Hilberts Hotel forum. I think your problem is that are used to everyone around you "ass kissing" which is American slang for "sucking up" or flattery. If you had someone give it to you straight some time, you might realize that your development of 3dgs is far from perfect. You really need some perspective.
I simply aired some greivances of my own, agreeing with some of Ran MAns, I dont want one of your your circle of cronies and fanboys patronizing me with any sarcasm or anything else. I may not be as great a programmer as some here, but I still dont need to be mocked. The last time I checked, 3dgs was SUPPOSED to be for script kiddies like me, not real graphics programmers, you were supposed to be the one taking care of the serious graphics.
Last edited by NITRO777; 06/13/07 00:20.
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: NITRO777]
#135824
06/12/07 23:31
06/12/07 23:31
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man
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The purpose of me opening this thread was to, yes, vent my frustrations, but also too help Conitec with feedback.
After all, I cannot expect them to know my thoughts. I think they need honest feedback from their customers. If they choose to ignore any feedback, then it's their decision.
I made some specific request earlier, regarding an easily editable movement template with LAN abilities. I looked at the forecast and once again, they appear to be satisfying the "non-programmer" crowd, by making click-together stuff.
Hey, that's okay and good, but what about the programmer who needs a EDITABLE template to get going? I'm too busy working on other programming to get that going. Aggh, maybe I'll just PM George or somebody later for A6 movement templates to edit, but I think Conitec should be doing that.
In short, I opened this thread to help you guys at Conitec. I find Nitro very valuable around here. So, if you ban him, then ban me also.
Fastlane don't like me, I know, but I hold nothing against him or anybody else. I just think that Conitec should know what we think.
My thoughts are that Conitec, hey they pleased a lot of non-programmer folks and also the programmers who wish to make a simple shooter and have the time to make their own movement templates, but for me that does not work.
I have too much AI, actions and ART to worry about, rather than movement stuff.
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: Ran Man]
#135825
06/13/07 00:10
06/13/07 00:10
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
fastlane69
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Quote:
Fastlane don't like me, I know, but I hold nothing against him or anybody else.
I think you are wrong to condemn Conitec for it's desire to move forward with it's scripting language... I think that for as long as you have been here that you might have outgrown a dependence on the templates by now... and those were the only points of my admittedly sarcastic initial post.
And any difference of opinion between us has zero to do with what I think of you as a person. Heck, if I considered everyone who disagreed with me as not liking me, then my parents must really hate me!  I think your games are unique and the christian angle is a very interesting one. I commend you as a person for doing this for people of your faith as a different expression of your beliefs.
If you express an opinion I disagree with, I may call you out on it. There is no hate in this disagreement; quite the opposite: if I truly didn't like you, I wouldn't even bother posting towards you, savvy? 
And Nitro, my post had ZERO relevance to what you posted so I have no idea why you have taken this so personally. 
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: fastlane69]
#135826
06/13/07 00:18
06/13/07 00:18
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Quote:
And Nitro, my post had ZERO relevance to what you posted so I have no idea why you have taken this so personally.
because you clearly included me in your sarcastic reply as if I was one of the ones so stupid to not notice the higher fps, and different variable types, etc.By using the term "you guys"
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You guys are right. Here's my bitch list regarding the changes:
and yes, your comments did in fact clearly relate to some of the things I had originally said
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: NITRO777]
#135828
06/13/07 00:33
06/13/07 00:33
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Quote:
Just so you'll know, I don't really like you very much. Just thought I'd clear that one up. I can get along with anyone...my best friend used to be my "mortal" enemy, but he turned out all right in the end. You....I just think you're a pompous ass. I'll leave it at that, and I think your little tirades which you think are clever and oh so hoi poloi are the result of someone who has had too much to drink or whatever.
I guess its also ok to say stuff like this in this thread right? Or has anyone ever got mad at someone and vented? or is everybody so perfect? huh? somehow I dont believe it...
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: NITRO777]
#135829
06/13/07 00:45
06/13/07 00:45
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Netherlands
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Quote:
I simply aired some greivances of my own, agreeing with some of Ran MAns, I dont want one of your your circle of cronies and fanboys patronizing me with any sarcasm or anything else. I may not be as great a programmer as some here, but I still dont need to be mocked. The last time I checked, 3dgs was SUPPOSED to be for script kiddies like me, not real graphics programmers, you were supposed to be the one taking care of the serious graphics.
It's still for 'script kiddies' like you and me, it's just the syntax that had a little overhaul. I'm pretty sure it's not thát big of a change, especially since you can use c-script still for a while.
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what this engine is compared to commercial engines.
True, however if Conitec would be even more conservative this would never ever change. The 'script kiddy' purpose of this engine may somewhat contradict any kind of competitiveness on the commercial level. On the other hand it's quite the contrary since there's a big group of 'script kiddies' out there who would like to try their hands at making a game.
My personal opinion about Lite-C, I like it, however I do sort of dislike the fact of learning it. I'm confident I can learn it, but it will cost time. I can understand that people dislike that, no matter how small the changes actually are. Still, without changes there's no progress, so it's for the better of all of us.
Anyways, I think a lot of people missed D3D's point, if you're making a game, decide upon which version you want to use and stick to the most stable version for the duration of the project. This way you don't have problems when the syntax changes. Having said this I'm fairly confident that I will upgrade to A7 within a reasonable short amount of time and go learn Lite-C, but nonetheless I will finish my latest projects using A6,
Cheers
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: PHeMoX]
#135830
06/13/07 01:19
06/13/07 01:19
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Quote:
On the other hand it's quite the contrary since there's a big group of 'script kiddies' out there who would like to try their hands at making a game
Oh yes, but jcl doesnt care about them, I wouldnt say "Conitec" doesnt care, I specifically single out jcl because hes in charge of Conitec and they just do what he says. Like I am primarily an artist with average scripting copy and paste type of abilities, just an average guy yet because of all the different factors of 3dgs are impossible to put togther. The most I can do is put a nice level together with some people walking around, other than that if you ever want to do anything advanced in 3dgs you have to know about pointers, trig, some calculus, write a dll with c+++...
so what do you do if you cant do these? you turn to plug in like intense ai, or sphere or ice_x terrain because you need that functionality, but why hasnt conitec made those plugin to interconnect with the engine? why havent they spent time developing those editors so that users can have ease of use? because I dont think they really care about the average people, or they are just hoping that these members like Larry Laffer are going to do the job for them.because average people cant develop an advanced ai system, or shader or terrain editor, so therefore if we dont use these plugins then we can forget having realistic games.
I really think the rendering hjas improved greatly, but I still dont know where they are going with the templates? all of I seen of this new a6 templates was just a very basic functionality (in comparison to some users plugins), yet this very basic functionality comes with the high cost of a heavily complicated programming code. On the templates the ratio of functionality:code understandablity is very low, what I was simply pointing out in agreement to Ran Mans statement is that the old a5 templates were easier to understand, the variable names made sense, the variable scope was easy to keep track of, IM not saying that the old a5 templates were sufficient.
I think Conitec has wasted a lot of time developing the new templates when they should have been making these editors like terrain, and shader.
And for ai? Has Conitec EVER developed anything decent for ai since the company has been founded? NO. capital N. So why not? Because I believe as I said in my first post that they really might not even be game players, therefore they have no understanding at all about how important AI is to a game, it is absolutely positively indespensible for gameplay realism, and I believe they would understand that if they actually were game players and game developers, but Conitec is not game developers, they are game tool makers. Concentrating on the rendering and Lite-C is good, but for all these years there has been very little thought into what actually makes games cool.
5 years ago they should have been on board with a shader editor... It grieves my heart, I could go on and on, but it is just depressing...
At least it would be nice for jcl to step up and admit that there have been some wrong direction,and what he will do to fix it but Im afraid he is a very hard person to work with, and that may be why some of this stuff will never get accomplished. It bothers me that they wont accept that there have been any limitations or errors in the software, when clearly some game engines are far far beyond 3dgs.
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: NITRO777]
#135831
06/13/07 02:36
06/13/07 02:36
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
fastlane69
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So many wrongs to right: Quote:
I specifically single out jcl because hes in charge of Conitec and they just do what he says
Nope. JCL is just as much a cog as Doug and everyone else. Conitec is a German company and he does what THEY say not the other way around.
Quote:
do anything advanced in 3dgs you have to know about pointers, trig, some calculus, write a dll with c+++...
Well yes and no. You are making a game one of the more difficult of software development tasks because of the different areas it covers: art, ai, programming, music etc. It's true that to EXCEL at 3DGS you will have to learn about some mediocre advanced concept (trust me, C++ is advanced... this is not) but we all know that TONS of people with no calculus skills or DLLS or C++ knowledge make games all the time.
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.because average people cant develop an advanced ai system, or shader or terrain editor, so therefore if we dont use these plugins then we can forget having realistic games.
Average users will always make average games even with the best tools.
But exceptional users will always make exceptional games REGARDLESS of the tool.
You see this not just in games but in Music (White Stripes), Photography (Ansel Adams), Paintings (Georgia O'Keefe)... in anything that requires creativity, the true artist will find a way to get their vision out there and won't rely on convention to guide them. If the tools are lacking, they make the tools. And if they can't make the tools, they use whatever they find around to make sure their vision is seen and heard and felt!
Furthermore, where is it written the all games must be realistic? Where is it written that the best games are realistic? Realism is nice if it's relevant to your game but I can think of 30 years worth of un-realistic games that are legendary and still fun today.
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but for all these years there has been very little thought into what actually makes games cool.
D'UH!!! That's because that is your job as a game developer not Conitec's!!!
Would you blame the hammer maker because you can't build a spectacular house?
Would you blame the word editor because you can't write a GREAT novel?
Put another way, can you imagine if Conitec was in charge of "fun"? They say that RPGs are fun and FPSs aren't and thus they don't develop any tools to work for FPS... how much fun would THAT be for the community!?
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And for ai? Has Conitec EVER developed anything decent for ai since the company has been founded? NO. capital N.
And why should they? They can't develop EVERY game module out there for EVERY need. You might as well condemn them for never creating a SCORM module so I can integrate it with military protocols, for never making a "sticky" module so I can make a Katamari knock-off, or for never making a "gravity" module so I can make a Ratchett Knock-off!
As I'm saying above, if you want AI in your game you either do it yourself (which is incredibly hard) or you have someone do it for you. That someone could be Conitec but AI is NOT a tool; AI is the product of using those tools. At some stage, you have to take responsability for your the development of your game and not rely on what others have done but rather on what you can do...
Quote:
At least it would be nice for jcl to step up and admit that there have been some wrong direction,
No one in their right mind would do that. No one in their right business mind at least.
After all, all I see here is a difference of opinion: they are going in one direction where you want them to go another. How is that wrong? It's not. It's merely your opinion vs. theirs and since they are the ones in control here, they trump any of our opinions... which isn't really true for despite your assertions that Conitec turns a deaf ear to experienced developers, I think we can all testify to the personal level of service Conitec provides for it's customers. It may not always be the direction you want to go in, Hell, it's often not been the direction I myself would have wanted, but they do listen and they do move forward and the engine and the community are better for it.
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"I don't have pre-made AI, I don't have pre-made shaders, I don't have pre-built Terrains. How am I expected to make a game if Conitec doesn't build it for me first???"
That's what you are sounding like to me. The more and more you go on Nitro the more it sounds like you are fustrated with your own personal game development efforts (or rather the lack thereof) and are trying to put the blame on the engine. It seems to me that you want the mythical "make my game" button and are mad as hell because Conitec hasn't given it to you yet! To me it sounds like you want to acheive professional results with only average efforts.
Have you considered that making games may just not be your gig? There's no shame in this... not everyone is cut out to make games. Maybe JCL will admit to a failure in direction when you admit to a failure in game development. Not likely to happen, is it? 
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Re: New Features, Thanks :-(
[Re: fastlane69]
#135832
06/13/07 02:54
06/13/07 02:54
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man
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Coppell, Texas
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Oh, I guess that I give up on this thread.  I just wanted Conitec to hear my point of view. I could program the movement myself, but this project has me so busy and sometimes I get very frustrated. Sorry Fastlane for mentioning you. I should not have done that. Both Fastlane and Nitro are good guys. I salute them both. Keep up the good work guys. Remember that all of us and the entire world needs both of you. Bye. Randall...
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