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Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: Dan Silverman] #176976
01/08/08 06:15
01/08/08 06:15
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
Doug Offline
Senior Expert
Doug  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
Four areas off the top of my head: AI, Control, Design, Gameplay.

(( Warning: Half-baked rant coming on. ))

AI: It's getting better but, if we compared it to graphics, its roughly on pair with "8-bit" sprites.
In the next 10 years, hopefully we can move beyond simple pathfinding and state machines.

Control: The Wii-mote is cool, but limited.
How about a standard interface where you could use any control (joystick, laser-pointer, lightgun, etc.) with any game?
Or no control at all, just use a video camera to track player movement (they could do this in 1997, but it required a lot of computing).

Design: Even with 3DGameStudio (shameless plug ), its too hard to make great games.
Creating games should be as easy (or easier) than writing a book.

Gameplay: There are a lot of fun games out there, but there still isn't anything as popular as the "real" game of golf.
When you can create a game that is still played 100-years later by millions of people, that's good gameplay.


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Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: Doug] #176977
01/08/08 07:02
01/08/08 07:02
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
sPlKe Offline
Expert
sPlKe  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
Quote:

Four areas off the top of my head: AI, Control, Design, Gameplay.

(( Warning: Half-baked rant coming on. ))

AI: It's getting better but, if we compared it to graphics, its roughly on pair with "8-bit" sprites.
In the next 10 years, hopefully we can move beyond simple pathfinding and state machines.

Control: The Wii-mote is cool, but limited.
How about a standard interface where you could use any control (joystick, laser-pointer, lightgun, etc.) with any game?
Or no control at all, just use a video camera to track player movement (they could do this in 1997, but it required a lot of computing).

Design: Even with 3DGameStudio (shameless plug ), its too hard to make great games.
Creating games should be as easy (or easier) than writing a book.

Gameplay: There are a lot of fun games out there, but there still isn't anything as popular as the "real" game of golf.
When you can create a game that is still played 100-years later by millions of people, that's good gameplay.




well, i wont be around in 80 years i guess, but i belive tetris is it then...

Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: sPlKe] #176978
01/08/08 12:27
01/08/08 12:27
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
lostclimate Offline
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lostclimate  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
I didnt read most of the last part of this thread, but I also think about when you first start making games.

anybody start with game maker? i started at v 3.2 and played around with it, and the first day I made a small stick figure game, that not only worked, but was a distributable exe file, I mean, I must rock.

now I'm making 3d models, baking 3d textures, thinking about how I'm going to implement pathfinding, and searching for libraries, and to be honest, its not as fun as it used to be.


I know all this is really not that related to the original post but a similar concept.

Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: lostclimate] #176979
01/08/08 17:59
01/08/08 17:59
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
Doug Offline
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Doug  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
sPlKe: Tetris is a great example. Not nearly as popular as golf, but I could see people playing something like it 80 or 800 years in the future.
But I hope we have more to offer future generations.

Quote:

and to be honest, its not as fun as it used to be.



lostclimate: I don't think this is what Dan was talking about.
I think he misses the "adventure" of blazing new ground with graphics and wonders what's next. The stuff you are doing has already been done.

For me, my adventure is people like you.
Why on earth should you have to implement pathfinding if you don't want to? I'm guessing you'd rather come up with interesting ways for your AI to react to the player (i.e. find them, hide from them, chuck rocks at them, etc.).

Yeah, templates and development tools are nothing new. But there is still a lot of room to grow here.


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Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: Dan Silverman] #176980
01/08/08 18:28
01/08/08 18:28
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Quote:

Everyone's an "expert" these days. Back then, none of us were sure what we were doing and, as a result, we would all reach out and help each other. Sure, people still do a bit of that today, but it certainly is not like it was.




Well, it's still only a small group of people that really are pushing the boundaries and those people still share a lot of secrets with others. Most of it probably happens behind the screens, but the other majority of people kind of follow where others lead so to speak.

Don't forget Half-life and Medal of Honor wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for Carmack helping other people out and so on. It's still happening today on similar levels, but more on specific subjects instead of entire engines mostly. Nowadays a lot of shader related knowledge is out in the open for everyone to read about. I think most of the real experts are very aware of the fact that progress goes faster if everybody is involved in it, able to share ideas and so forth.

I think the adventure seems gone, simply because the whole scene blew up the way it did. Companies earn millions with single game franchises, game hypes are created in such a fashion that the release of a major title makes the evening news.

Things like that definitely ruin the adventure of it in my opinion, but we haven't seen the final frontier of games by far. We haven't nearly started to approach the graphical boundary of ultimate realism and other aspects lay even further behind like Doug said. I think recent inventions like EyeToys and Microsoft's Surface are going to be the start of where the 'next' huge change is going to be. I am pretty sure that it's going to be an evolution though, not a revolution,

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: PHeMoX] #176981
01/08/08 19:02
01/08/08 19:02
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline OP
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline OP
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Oh, creating real-time 3D content is still fun and there is still a bit o' the adventure, for sure. I suppose I just miss the attitude of the "new frontier" that many of us experienced back in "the day". At one time, when Quake and Unreal were new, there were level editors, model editors and WAD editors popping up everyone like crazy. The creators of these tools had a following and they freely offered what they created to those that wanted them. It seemed that many of us hung on with deep anticipation for each update so that we could try our hand at creating content for these new, evolving realities. Programmers were developing engines and actively looking for graphical help. Graphic artists and graphic artist wanna-bes were looking for ways they could help. It was like we were all on equal footing. It was like there was a sense of "brotherhood". If you were "daring" enough to join the adventure then those already on the trail would haply lend you a hand.

Most of that appears to be gone. Many are not developing an engine for the sake of the adventure, but in the hopes of turning a buck. Perhaps they can make the next GameStudio competitor or perhaps some big company will take notice and pay them to develop for them or purchase the rights to their engine. I certainly have no problem with people earning from their hard work. It just seems the spirit is missing that once permeated almost every aspect of real-time 3D content creation. The "esprit decor" of the early days of real-time 3D seems to have gone away.

I am not necessarily saying any of this is bad. I am just saying I miss this "spirit" and the original adventure. I just wonder if there will be something in the near future that will generate the same sort of adventure or if this was simply a once-in-a-lifetime experience.


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Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: Dan Silverman] #176982
01/08/08 21:40
01/08/08 21:40
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 290
Latvia
Leonardo Offline
Member
Leonardo  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 290
Latvia
Well, you pretty much always get that "tingling" sensation when experiencing and experimenting with something new, it's the human nature. You become like a kid - overwhelmed, happy, maybe even a bit crazy! But I can't say, that the industry has lost it's spirit, it has just reached it's limit, both in graphical discoveries and in human capacity (how many people can make a decent playable game these days?)! I know, someone will say, that we haven't reached the graphical discovery limit until we get total realism, but as mentioned earlier, it is all just improvements on a known technology, not a totally new discovery.

What would make me personally get a "tingling" sensation, is a totally open-source gamedev community. Free engine, free models, free scripts etc. and all that on a massive scale - 10 of thousands of people who create games for fun, not money, cooperating and sharing, discussing and helping each other Now I don't approve of illegal p2p file sharing, but while watching "Steal this movie" part I&II, I actually saw this as the future of sharing - whether the items are ideas, models, scripts.... Because, let's agree, the feeling is gone because nowadays a lot of people pretty much look at the GameDev companies as greedy, money-hungry corporations. By the way, I'm not saying that's a bad thing and that we all feel like this. ^^

Leonardo


"Things of the mind left untested by the senses are useless."
Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: Leonardo] #176983
01/08/08 22:29
01/08/08 22:29
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
Doug Offline
Senior Expert
Doug  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,973
Bay Area
Quote:

What would make me personally get a "tingling" sensation, is a totally open-source gamedev community. Free engine, free models, free scripts etc. and all that on a massive scale - 10 of thousands of people who create games for fun, not money, cooperating and sharing, discussing and helping each other.




I think the Blender community is doing something like this. But they want something professional at the end.

The 3DGS community had a similar project many years ago called "Stone Soup". The finished game was far from professional, but everybody had a good time.

Dan: I think the "spirit" is still very much alive in the independent game movement. And, as the roadblocks begin to melt away, I think we'll see a lot more game development for fun.


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Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: Dan Silverman] #176984
01/09/08 10:47
01/09/08 10:47
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
JetpackMonkey Offline
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JetpackMonkey  Offline
Serious User

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
Isn't this adventure right here, under our own noses?

Aren't we living it right now?

Back in the 1990s, indie game design in real time 3D was out of our reach. Now we have some of the same technology used in commercial games right now. I see mind blowing 3D realtime games here and made with Torque and other engines. This is marking a big change in how games are being made now, and how they will be made in the future.

I'm convinced that the indie game production process is going to become easier and easier as more tools become accessible, and eventually come to a point where the game designer focuses more on content than on technology. I think there's a golden age afoot and we might not be able to see ourseles standing right there in its early stages. At some point, being a game designer is going to be more like being an author working alone on a book, and the days of huge production teams will dwindle. At least that is how it seems to me.

Re: Where's the Adventure? [Re: JetpackMonkey] #176985
01/09/08 12:03
01/09/08 12:03
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline OP
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline OP
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:

Back in the 1990s, indie game design in real time 3D was out of our reach.




Nope. Back in the days of DOOM, Quake and Unreal, indie game development was what it as all about! Anyone (and I mean ANYONE) with an idea could create a game and have a chance at being successful with it. Why? Several reasons: 1) It did not cost zillions of dollars to create a game back then and therefore it was within most people's budgets. 2) It did not take hundreds of man-hours to create a game at that time and therefore you did not need a team of 20+ people to create a game. 3) You did not have to worry about the variety of hardware that we do today (i.e. no one had 3D video cards, etc). This was the day and age of games like Commander Keen. This was before there were any real shareware distribution centers. It may not have been as easy to create the game as we have it today, but a team of one, two or four could get a good game out the door in a few months.

Also, to think things are easier now may not be the case. They may not have had game creation kits in that day like we do know, but they sort of did. Myst wasn't completely coded from scratch. Cyan used a piece of software from Macromedia that was similar to Director (forgot the name). While this was a more "general" tool, it facilitated game creation in that you did not need to code from scratch.

I will disagree with your statement. In the beginning of this all, indie game creation was at its height and was in the reach of ANYONE that cared to dive in. Today, the budget and manpower needed puts it virtually out of the reach of most people despite the tools provided. This is not to say it is impossible ...


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