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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: Leonardo]
#182135
02/07/08 13:31
02/07/08 13:31
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815
Finland
Inestical
Rabbit Developer
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Rabbit Developer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815
Finland
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vsps20
I need the GeForce 8800GTX or the equal from ATi (can't remember the name)
"Yesterday was once today's tomorrow."
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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: Inestical]
#182136
02/07/08 14:24
02/07/08 14:24
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
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Quote:
If that is possible with 3DGS and not very hard, then I'll stop ranting here! ^^
You can see in many shaders in this forum that fallbacks are possible. You can even fall down to fixed function pipeline or non-shader. FFP works even on old Geforce2MX, nobody has such old graphic cards.
So yes, you can stop ranting 
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#182137
02/07/08 15:55
02/07/08 15:55
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
broozar
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
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Quote:
that's an interesting thought. my notebook is a couple of years old and was really cheap and dodgy at the time we bought it, and it doesn't have a graphics card, but it supports shader version 2.0.
well, every pc that has a monitor connected to it has a graphics chip/card. and intel x3100 and ati x1250 are capable of shader model 3 (for the intel chip, i'm not sure maybe even 4 due to many laptops come with vista and this chip). however, it is not a good idea to push this as it will result in unplayable framerates (PREY at around 10 fps with the intel chip in medium settings).
Quote:
but a developer (especially one who is using 3DGS) shouldn't sacrifice a part of the potential buyers by implementing shaders
o.0 well... you'd lose 99% of the potential customers if you would follow your advice. "woah it looks bad - i don't play it" that's what the average customer will think. 1% leaving fans of the engine, geeks, and office pc users which are not the target audience and will barely have a look at an indie game.
and good shader model 3 cards are available for over a year now for under €100.
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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: Leonardo]
#182139
02/07/08 22:13
02/07/08 22:13
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
broozar
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
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Quote:
If 99% of the players wouldn't play the game because of the graphics, then there wouldn't be any indie games on the market, so your statement is wrong! You know the indie market is growing, noone can disagree with that! 
can you give us figures that will proove your argument?
my personal observation is that a game will be bashed by the press if it does not deliver up-to-date graphics, including shader technologies. most target group gamers don't care if crysis runs at 12 fps, it's crysis. same with gothic3 and other so-called "gaming revolutions". no matter how much fun the game is, graphics and shaders assure you a mild review and so a commercial success in most cases. and you have to admit that there are more cases when a game has been acclaimed for its good graphics, but had a questionable gameplay and was a success nevertheless (doom3, far cry, quake4), instead of being a commercial successful game with outdated graphics but extremely fun to play (the gish, worms).
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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: broozar]
#182140
02/07/08 22:22
02/07/08 22:22
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 290
Latvia
Leonardo
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Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 290
Latvia
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Your personal observations are inaccurate! One word - BEJEWELED!!! Does the game use shaders? No! Can the game be made in 3DGS? Yes! And I leave this question to you - is the game bashed by the press? Are most of indie games bashed by the press? If you don't see the difference between indie games and professional company games, I cannot help you!
I suggest that you read a bit more about different game genres, other than the FPS - Crysis! If graphics would rule the gaming industry, indie games would die! And there is nothing you can say to disprove this point!
Leonardo
"Things of the mind left untested by the senses are useless."
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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: Leonardo]
#182141
02/07/08 23:10
02/07/08 23:10
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
JibbSmart
OP
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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Quote:
well, every pc that has a monitor connected to it has a graphics chip/card.
no kidding. i didn't say otherwise (and you didn't say i did, but it's implied). but modern integrated graphics won't compete with modern cards. i assumed you were talking about older chips, because i think it'd be unwise to take really modern notebooks as reference. i was thinking about people who think they can't do squat coz they're stuck with integrated graphics. xXxGuitar511 has been struggling with a lack of shader capabilities recently, only to realize after a little research that his friend's computer that he's using actually supports up to vs/ps2.0.
@leonardo: yes, as others said, it's very easy to do fallbacks in 3DGS. my poll was looking for stats without use of fallbacks because i want to see what people think the best balance is.
julz
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: JibbSmart]
#182142
02/07/08 23:27
02/07/08 23:27
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
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Bejeweled is made by a company that earns millions with games. It produces high quality casual games. And the graphics are very polished and almost perfect.
They have very good quality assurance, marketing, do advertising, sell through different publishers. It is not comparable with a hobby game-maker calling themselve an indie.
If you want to make a Bejeweled clone you even do not need a 3d engine. You can do it with a 2d game engine.
At the end we come to 3d games and if we look at this we have to realize that Broozar is right. You need good lighting and at least per-pixel lighting, some specularity or shadow-mapping is all made via shaders because it is faster than cpu. You can use fall-backs and support many systems.
Look at the Source-engine. It can even render from DX7 to DX9 with different features. While 3dgs can only render DX9 it still can cover many systems if you have good shaders.
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
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Re: what shader version does your card support?
[Re: Leonardo]
#182143
02/07/08 23:48
02/07/08 23:48
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
broozar
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
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Quote:
Your personal observations are inaccurate! One word - BEJEWELED!!! Does the game use shaders? No! Can the game be made in 3DGS? Yes! And I leave this question to you - is the game bashed by the press? Are most of indie games bashed by the press? If you don't see the difference between indie games and professional company games, I cannot help you!
I suggest that you read a bit more about different game genres, other than the FPS - Crysis! If graphics would rule the gaming industry, indie games would die! And there is nothing you can say to disprove this point!
Leonardo
ok, obviously you cannot prove your points with figures, otherwise you already had instead of posting such random thoughts.
bejewelled is a classic game, like tetris and gauntlet, not as old of course. there are many pong and even a bejewelled clone out there made with 3dgs (damocles made one, i remember). of course, these games are fun. so is Don't Get Angry. but believe me, neiter Do Not Get Angry nor a Pong or another Bejewelled clone will bring you commercial success, you will rather earn a weary smile.
plus, bejeweled is a flash game. as there is no real (usable and spread) 3d in flash, other rules apply to online flash games than to boxed (or steam-able) 3d games.
and, you are again using the word "indie developer" in a wrong way. indie means independent from big companies, rasing funds mostly by their own and having full control over the design and game creation process, meaning that the ones responsible belong to the same group/company that develops the game, and noone from a 3rd party like a publisher dictates em what to do. but these usually smaller teams usually live from their products by selling licenses to publishers. infinity ward (call of duty) has once been indie, until it has been acquired by activision after the success of call of duty 1. garageGames is indie. they are professionals, but indie.
people and weekend warriors who do not earn their income with the 3d game products they create, are hobbyists and amateurs (word meaning "love the things they do"). they work in their free time. they are not professionals in terms of the definition "professional", their profession is their job they earn an income with. if they are really good at the things tey do, they are semi-professionals. they are not indie developers in terms of my previous paragraph.
you can hardly compare bejewelled with crysis or ut3. neither will i. just tell me which game you awaited longer for the last months and years, ut3 or bejewelled 08/15? how many preview and review articles have been written about ut3, how many about bejewelled ME edition? do you have the slightest idea of UT's sales figures, compared to the lads who play bejewelled2 on a regular basis?
not the indie scene is dying. just noone will buy or play hobbyist games that follow your philosophy but some nerds and engine fans. to give you an impression of today's indie scene,
red ocean:
ankh (based on ogre):
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