This post is meant to be the start of a discussion about feasible work-for-future-profits business models/working structures.

Everyone's input is welcome. If you think the general idea is not feasible-- fire away; however, I think what really would add value to the conversation is solutions and perspective from anyone with experience in such projects. (lessons learned etc.0

I think we're all well sick of the years and years of posts (in almost every game dev forum) that go something like: "I have a great idea for a game; I just need 4 programmers, 4 artists, some musicians etc.. I will in turn do all the fun stuff while everyone gets themselves in deep in engine-specific code and complex art paths. We'll work for the glory of my idea, and if there is any money I'll give you some of it. Trust me."

Please if you have a great idea, go for it. Write your game design docs and see if folks will join. I think ideas are important, game designers are important, producers/project leads are important; however, your chances are about 0, if your post rings of the previous sample.

I think, an opportunity is missed by most folks who want to start a project on a shoestring or no budget.

If you aren't an artist or coder-- make sure that you do your homework and have something to offer i.e. a well thought out design doc and scedule with all assets needed planned for... a business plan-- a feasible marketing plan that includes an affiliate program-- at least all that. If you can write, you can do that.

Now on to the working structure. Wouldn't a more feasible structure for setting up a "for future profit model" include first NDA, and partnership agreements. In this partnership agreement, you could specify that say...paypal be setup as a merchant account for the game-- that all developers would have access to it and could see any profits-- that those profits would be distributed monthly based on sales by the leader of the group-- that no other distribution or income stream would be allowed-- and all manor of details concerning distribution of profits/other elements.

Now this would require still a lot of trust, and I seriously doubt it would work with people spread over the world as any one person could raid the merchant account and have little fear that his co-developers will seek any retribution via courts or torched auto etc..; however, isn't this better and more feasible than the very simple "if they're are any profits we'll split them up" situation that is ever-present. A reputable game designer, artist or coder is not likely going to raid an account.

Thoughts...remember please let's try and get this idea to evolve not devolve if possible. More working projects means possibly a project that you could be a part of.

I don't think that it is a matter of trust, the most users in this community don't have the knowledge and the capacities to make a whole game. Few can make prototypes. Very few have the breath and the knowledge to compose a game with enough level and all required assets, because this is a community of learning programmers and learning modeler.
Gamedesign and leveldesign and producing are the skills that are mostly missed.

i like what youre comin with, but also, i think most indie developers are so sure of their own "extremely amazing" idea that they would never think of surrendering it to team up with someone else and create another game, even if similar to theirs, as said, its best to find your strong point then join a team or such that can compliment your strong point, for me, its working with weapon systems, totally adore it, not melee weapons like swords though

Poppen, I suppose you're right; however, you and darkinferno are very good programmers. I'm worth my salt as an artist, so there are three. I'm sure that there are many more here. Any game dev forum, even for the top engines, is going to have a community dominated by people learning.

I think trust is an enormous issue. I for one am not working on anything unless at least the spirit of an agreement is outlined well.

A lot of projects could be done without money; however, let's face it, most free projects just vanish because everyone gets side track with real life. A business model with a real payoff could help to keep people motivated since everyone needs money.

>Gamedesign and leveldesign and producing are the skills that are mostly missed.
I agree, but how is that fixed? I think a feasible business model could better support people who want to hang their shingle in those fields.

Perhaps another discussion, but people in a game dev forums are far too focused at times on the tech and not the intellectucal property that you can bring to life with it.

Another thing is that there happens a lot of developing behind the curtains.
The more someone show his skills in the forum the more he faces requests to help in one or another way, and sometimes find people who ask him for paid work.
As soon as they found a way to earn money more frequent, they don't appear as active on these forum as they are expected to do.

I'm personally now working on a project that wouldn't last more than three months on a professional base, but lasts now from November of the last year and still isn't finished.

You won't get a start and a team without a good concept and good skills in at least one of the required tasks of a game production.
And, probably, you need already a prototype that the guys around here like to play to find a team.
If you as an artist present in this forums a set of models(with all included: skinning, animation, texture) and scenes(texture and shadowing) that show an impressing atmosphere, a certain uniqueness and a fitting visual concept for a small game, then you most certainly find others who are willing to cooperate, but the most skilled users are already busy with one or another project.

I don't think the situation is about something that can't exist because of various factors involving resources. The resources are there. I think the issue is the common "mod" like business model. It stinks.

You could get the right team together with a game design doc and some concept art, but again what next...

The solution is to indeed have a vanguard with a unique vision for a feasible project. My question is, once you have the vanguard and get at least the attention of the rest of the "right people"-- what next without money.... I'm seeking a discussion about the details.

The "what next" is almost always answered in an ineffective way.

Another solution besides ongoing shared profit/ single merchant with universal access among developers might be to develop the game with more of a contract situation. That is, say for an artist, you build levels 1-3 and get y dollars based on profits (which you have access to as well). Once those dollars are earned, you're involvement in the project could be ended.

With Aaaaa!, we worked with a few people in this capacity. I think what really did the trick was there was that, every week, we'd assign specific tasks, and then meet, in person, to give everyone a chance to talk about what they'd done.

We did lose one team member (one of the interns), but every week, the work was done. Those meetings held us accountable.

Ichiro, how has your experience in general been as an independent?

The contract model has a lot of advantages over a partnership. If you think about not so much making a game, but owning a business...well, lots of partners complicates things. What if someone leaves. Do the others buy them out? What if the game never made a dime, but it's clear that it will, and someone wants out or stops working. With a contractor, you can then find someone else who is interested in helping on your terms more or less. I prefer a team for some reason...


Perhaps three people-- one designer/planner/web guy/business person, one artist, and one coder. All partners-- 33 percent. IF you look at the history of successful companies, that seems to be the best setup at start. Of course it would help if the business person had access to money, but we're talking about shoe string/no string budgets and if possible not bowing down to publisher money.

> The contract model has a lot of advantages over a partnership.

I think you can get the best of both worlds and blur the lines a little. You raise some good points, which teams should address in a formal agreement:

> What if someone leaves. Do the others buy them out?
> if the game never made a dime, but it's clear that it will, and someone wants out or stops working.

If you sit down and write this all out (the nice thing about an agreement is that you can decide anything, so long as it's legal), I'd say you're pretty well off.

> Perhaps three people-- one designer/planner/web guy/business person, one artist, and one coder.

I also like the number three. The principals of Dejobaan are broken down thusly:

1. Biz/Programming/Art
2. Marketing/PR
3. Game Architecture

And I think that Marketing and PR are so important we took on an intern for that area this summer.

It's good that Art and Programming are grouped together. Of course, you don't need me to tell you that, Ichiro, but I think since so many of the users here (not all) are either programmers or artists, it's easy for people to forget that artists and programmers should work close together.

An apparently good game is KOTOR (1 and 2) which I never played because its presentation was so bad. I think the artists were in one country and the programmers in another, because there appeared to be no communication between the two:
All in-game cutscenes were composed of canned animations that appear to have been made well-before the game was designed, resulting in animations that usually don't fit the mood/setting/cutscene properly. It wouldn't bother me in most games (such as almost any game by Raven, since they're a little better but usually rely less on real-time cutscenes to further the story), but KOTOR is meant to rely on being an epic story and was filled with small cutscenes; I found suspension of disbelief an impossible task. The quality was no different between minor side-quests and major events in the games.

A bit more on-topic:

What do you mean by "Game Architecture", Ichiro? Is that like what the game's going to do and how it is structured?

Jibb