Hi,

I am sure this will not go over well with the shader gurus, but I have had enough. Is any expert on the subject ever going to make a good tutorial or not? I have spent too many hours beating my head up against the wall trying to squeeze an ounce of information out of anyone dealing with shaders, even receiving .wrs files to hide the code. Come on guys, someone please explain shaders in detail with some nice tutorials.

I have no time and don't want to do it myself, but I swear I will make the time and learn shaders inside and out, and do it myself if no one else does.

Everytime I try to get help or information on this subject, even on a major project, I have been met with what I would call apathy. Someone please take the mystery out of it or I will do it myself in a tutorial similar to the multiplayer tutorial that will take a person from zero and cover atleast a few aspects of making different shaders work with 3DGS and explaining what is going on in the shader script.

I am not trying to be rude, but I have had enough. Someone please start explaining shaders with working tutorials and help the community, or I will friggin do it myself.

I am really sorry for how this sounds,
but there comes a point in time that someone has to say something.
Why is this part of the community different from the rest?
It won't be for much longer, one way or the other,
Loco

PS: I will never live down this post, but that's ok if it makes something happen. Heh, now I have probably forced myself into the realm of shaders, since, what little help I was getting, will now be zero.

This is not meant to say anything bad about anyone dealing with shaders. I really like and respect most of you and I know you are busy, but the fact is, this part of the community in my opinion is the least helpful as far as teaching people how to learn this aspect of 3DGS and do it themselves. It just has to change. My apologies.

It's ok for a while if you don't claim to know me.

You have a good point, and the critisism is not so misplaced. I have left you hanging a time, or two.

There are various levels of interest in shaders and it is hard to meet all of them. There are those that just want working code and seek technical support for them. And then those that want a full-on "from the ground up" tutorial.

I agree, there needs to be a good tutorial/demo project that can be used as a learning tool.

What would you(anybody) want to see in this type of tutorial?? Interest and suggestions might make it a viable thing to do.

Hi Steempipe,

First, I must thank you for your pleasant response, when it probably wasn't deserved. You definately have my respect now, not that you didn't before.

On to what I believe would a good first shader tutorial. In my opinion, the first tutorial shouldn't be as much about the looks of the shader itself, but how the shader script is written and the conversion process from 3DGS to the shader works.

If I was writing my first shader tutorial, not unlike other aspects of 3DGS, I would start with the easiest possible shader, explaining each part of the shader script. I would also, show some changes in the shader's variables that would show how making those changes effects the shader.

I would stay on the simple shader for a while and also add some other important aspects, that are not difficult to do, but very useful. For example, how to change the shader to work with fog.

After taking the simpliest shader and showing topics like fog, etc on it, I would next move to a more complicated shader, the emphasis being on the shader script and how 3DGS variables tie in with it.

The first tutorial you wrote with explainations of how shader script works would be more useful than you could ever imagine. Just one example of how changing one variable in a shader script and how it changes the look of the shader would do more for everyone than you could imagine.

Examples of changing shader script to work with fog, which is a process I went through with absolutely no help, even though not difficult if you have the knowledge, is almost impossible for someone new to shaders without a guide.

Anyway,
Thanks so much Steempipe for you response,
You definately have my vote,
for, ummm... something nice.
Maybe Jamie_Lynn will send you some roses, , except I kind of made her mad the other day,
Loco

I do apologize for how I started this thread, but I really felt it was necessary

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I am not trying to be rude, but I have had enough. Someone please start explaining shaders with working tutorials and help the community, or I will friggin do it myself.

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What planet are you living on? There there have a been a lot of shaders and tutorials posted over the last few years.. if you havent taken the time to try to understand them, then that's your own 'apathy' not anyone else's. Drew has posted some good tutorials,I have posted many useful shaders, Steempipe, Oliver2, Ventilator, Alexander, etc. have all posted really good shader examples and working demos. I wrote a short tutorial explaining the basics of HLSL, it's a sticky at the top of this form. Frankly, if you want to use shaders, you should be prepared to invest some time into it, so why not 'friggin do it'? Is that some kind of wierd threat? Why would anyone be mad if you did this..?

Shader programming involves learning a language, either HLSL or assembly..but you can just copy existing shaders and get them working very easily.

Anbyway, this is the first I've heard of you asking for help..

I agree with Loco. Whats needed is more of the BASICS understanding of structure, format, and what does what in its basics, taken from the standpoint that the reader knows zip about shaders.

I would think some sort up build up order to the process.
I know materials themselves are easier then shaders ( only so many variables to set with a basic material and shaders need the understanding of how to work the basic materials. so that would be a good place to start. covering each basic parameter and what they do.

then mabey fixed functions what are they, whats the differnace and how to progress from basic materials to fixed functions. what particular parameters, apsects make up a typical fixed function

then explian the matrix system ( or do this before fixed functions if this understanding is needed for fixed functions)

for shaders contiue with a list of normaly encountered parameters ( beyond whats seen in materials and fixed functions) and how each influance an effect.

I know thats allot to ask for, and writting something/explaining something isn't the same as knowing how to do it. its allot of work to write up soemthing and very time consuming but it would be extrodinatly helpful if the average user could look at an effect/shader and understand what it does and if soemthing needs to be tweaked ( and I see allot of questions and answers on exactly that "adjust the .... effect" "where do I do that?" ) they know where to look ahead of time.

btw steempipe. Im still trying to figure out that automaterials effect at times. why it makes everything in my level go black for those particular textures.

I think it would be excellent. I myself havent even tried to step into the realm of shaders besides trying to apply bump mapping to level geometry(which i still cant get to work)... Preferably fixed function shaders would be excellent but thats only cause i cant use Vertex and pixel shaders

Ot: Will bumpmapping on level geometry work with a nividia geforce4 mx420... I was told fixed function would work on it however ive yet to get anything working tho its probally due to my lack of understanding and not properly following instructions.

I agree with all those in favor of the tutorials.
The more, the better.
Also, when Conitec releases the next update with the shader library, what I would like to see is a reference sheet documented somewhere giving me a breakdown of what the version is and what card(s) it does or does not work with.
It would suck to release a game that featured shaders available only to ATI users or only to geforce users and have to find out the hard way.

Hi,


I would place myself in the 'Lazy' Category in so far as I've bought a couple of books on Shader creation but haven't commited myself to learning it.

The Likes of Steempipe & Matt_Aufderheide Have produced good working examples of shaders which have been a pleasure to run.

But unfortunately none of the resources are 'easily' (and I use this term carefully) modifiable.

Matt coles produced some nice example levels which I believe were influenced by previous work. I can adopt these into my projects no problem.

I believe the tutorial requirement would be to explain the creation & insertion of simple Shaders for Level geometry/ Models / Terrain with a step by step instruction of what each line of code does.


Personally I find reading a book no substitute for seeing an example & understanding how each element of code changes the way a scene looks.

Having said this I am appreciative of any knowledge people share on this subject. It is after all their time & effort so thanks.

Finally this would not be an issue had Conitec provided the 'Library of Shaders' that we were all expecting.


No disrepect to JCL/Doug/Marco et al

But I would have thought that with the number of people clambering for working shader code that they would pull their proverbial fingers out & get it done.


And if it can't be prioritized internally outsource it to someone else e.g commision SMEE2 to be an official add-on

@Loco I suspect without some sort of 'collaboration' you may well end up DIY & if you do good on you...

@Daedelus, If you look at the forecast you'll see that the Shader library is not in development yet so I don't believe it will be in the next official release.

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@Daedelus, If you look at the forecast you'll see that the Shader library is not in development yet so I don't believe it will be in the next official release.

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Woops, you're probably right about that. I guess I got overly excited seeing that the priority level was listed as "high".

I think the next versions of gamestudio should just come with a bunch of fx files. I would say the most popular shader types should be in there, including my per-pixel lighting shaders, the terrain multitexture shader, Ventilator's overlay shader, Oliver2's water shader, the rest of the one's on the Wiki and some others i cant think of offhand. I dont think JCL and gang should devote their time to making a shader library right now, there are enough already. materials.wdl should be modified to automatically load the fx files, and have the predefined materials.. so the user can just choose the shader material like any other right off the bat with no extra work setting it up. The most common shaders requested are lighting/normalmapping, toon shaders, water, and terrain, and these are all covered pretty well.