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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#76277
07/10/06 20:33
07/10/06 20:33
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
JetpackMonkey
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Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
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Yeah you're absolutely right. That was regretfully a cheap stab at you, and wasn't very good form either, so accept my apology-- it was my 8 o'clock over-caffeinated sarcastic manic flip-out.
But that you thought my suggestion of fostering awe of the cosmos is "not caring about anything"?
You really think that is not caring??? Why not?
I'm convinced that whatever circumstances (sure you can call them god too) put us here in reality wants us to explore and create and search for meaning, we are meaning-seakers, and that we must put now expand our search beyond the same 2000 year old pre-enlightenment primate mythologies into the new realms being discovered by mathematicians, scientists, philosophers, physicists, astronomers, astrophysicists and biologists.
If I were god, I sure would be annoyed to be worshipped by masses of people who did not look for a greater truth and did not delve deeply into the vast universe of creation. I would want them to prosper, grow and expand to their maximum potential, to become God-like themselves and not to fall into group-think, or blindly obedient to a small set of rules.
Isn't that growth and search for meaning the purpose of our being?
If not, what do you think god wants of you and why?
Let's role-play that you are god, and try to answer this question: What you would expect of humanity and why?
Last edited by Jetpack_Monkey; 07/10/06 20:59.
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: JetpackMonkey]
#76278
07/10/06 21:53
07/10/06 21:53
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
If I were god, I sure would be annoyed to be worshipped by masses of people who did not look for a greater truth and did not delve deeply into the vast universe of creation. I would want them to prosper, grow and expand to their maximum potential, to become God-like themselves and not to fall into group-think, or blindly obedient to a small set of rules.
Infact, that's the irony here. What If there really is a God out here somewhere then I'm sure those blindly obedient people A.) are wrong about a lot of things, far more wrong than right and B.) I wonder how that God's reaction would be when he finds out that they are worshipping a none-existing clone God instead of Him hehehe... Revenge is sweet, or? 
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But at least quoting rock and roll in a philosophical discussion is a lot more 'enlightened'. You're representing atheism pretty well here, A Russell. Keep it up.
Oww, I thought the avarage atheist according to the church listens to death metal and worships satan? Isn't that what you've been told? Not? Oww, now that would be a definate first! 
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Well let's assume He is for the moment. That causes a glaring paradox, because God already exists as a physical being, but He created the universe. Well how can He create the universe if it must already exist for Him to be physical?
There's no paradox, since this can be explained. There's either no God(most likely explanation), or He didn't create the universe(ooww, and then what? God's God? -> thus there can be no God at all..) ... If He isn't physical, well that causes some paradoxes... How can a none-physical being influence the physical(science more or less ruled out 'magic', so try again ), and how could we know or tell this, since we can't notice it. Again, the most logical explanation is that he doesn't exist.
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Isn't it arrogance to assume that you know for sure that those things aren't true? I mean, you can say you haven't been convinced, but to say for sure that the belief is arrogant, would be arrogant for the same reason.
It's definately NOT arrogant to state we don't know and think you are wrong, it IS however very arrogant to think your God exists and you know this to be true as a fact, because you do seem to claim this...
You've turned this argument around, just like the 'why would I believe in a God without any evidence' argument of me earlier(different thread I think). You've also stated that you could believe for exactly the same argument, that's very odd reasoning imho.
If we don't know something at all, you can't go claim what you wish to be true, that's ignorance's finest and plain arrogance. Truth is we don't know, stating otherwise either requires the proper evidence of proof, or would simply be the arrogance of stupidness.
Cheers
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#76280
07/10/06 22:53
07/10/06 22:53
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
Matt_Aufderheide
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the very notion of thermodynamic modelling of the universe has been questioned, since the effects of such factors as gravity and quantum phenomena are very difficult to reconcile with simple thermodynamic models, rendering the utility of such models as predictive systems highly doubtful
This is from the same page. It is difficult to use thermodynamics to determine the age of the universe.
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: JetpackMonkey]
#76281
07/10/06 23:15
07/10/06 23:15
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
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edit: Phemox! I think I thought your post was by someone else. So I might have said some things that didn't apply to you, but I don't remember anymore, and I don't want to go over my post again. Quote:
Yeah you're absolutely right. That was regretfully a cheap stab at you, and wasn't very good form either, so accept my apology-- it was my 8 o'clock over-caffeinated sarcastic manic flip-out.
No worries.
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But that you thought my suggestion of fostering awe of the cosmos is "not caring about anything"?
Well....I guess what I really meant was, not caring about the ultimate answer. Where did it all come from?
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I'm convinced that whatever circumstances (sure you can call them god too) put us here in reality wants us to explore and create and search for meaning, we are meaning-seakers
I agree.
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and that we must put now expand our search beyond the same 2000 year old pre-enlightenment primate mythologies into the new realms being discovered by mathematicians, scientists, philosophers, physicists, astronomers, astrophysicists and biologists.
The belief in God has been around for 4000 years longer than Jesus' death. Why you're fixated on this 2000 year value I will never understand.
Scientists haven't discovered God doesn't exist. So we aren't moving anywhere new. The question still remains, and must remain for all time since there are some things we simply can't figure out through science.
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If I were god, I sure would be annoyed to be worshipped by masses of people who did not look for a greater truth
What is this greater truth? I would be annoyed, as God, if people kept insisting that they need to search for some truth besides God.
You seem to think God requires something magical from us. Like we need to immediately give up on living our lives, and become something...else. You don't suddenly not care to understand anything. You don't stop searching for truth, in fact the truth then becomes more clear because you have a direction, instead of wondering wherever your mind takes you. You're starting from the source of ultimate truth.
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and did not delve deeply into the vast universe of creation.
God doesn't command in the bible that we close our mind to everything except the bible. In fact, the bible commands believers to discover truth. I can't remember the verse off hand, and I want to work on my game so I'll leave it at that for now.
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I would want them to prosper, grow and expand to their maximum potential, to become God-like themselves and not to fall into group-think, or blindly obedient to a small set of rules.
Please tell me how you avoid this by not being a christian? This is an inevitable aspect of being human. Although this distracts from the point of Christianity.
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If not, what do you think god wants of you and why?
Not that I could even if I tried, but I'm sure He doesn't want me to be God-like. If he created me to be God-like, then I would be God-like.
I think he wants me to be 'the light of the world.' To allow the Holy Spirit to 'flow like a fountain' through me. The world is fallen (before you claim arrogance, this includes me). As a christian its my job to spread the good news to those who will respond to God's call. Pretty simple. I already know what the good news is, so that's the only thing that seperates me from anyone else (well that and I have faith in Jesus' sacrifice).
Anything else is an abstract of human existence. My desire to become a scientist may not be directly important to God's commands, but He could use my job to reach others. Or to reach me...
I don't claim to know what God's will is for my life, but I have faith that it will be done.
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Let's role-play that you are god, and try to answer this question: What you would expect of humanity and why?
I can't roleplay as God, but I'll guess as a human. I would suspect He wants us to stop giving in to our sinful nature, to live in fellowship with Him, and to do what we were designed to do. Which includes our curious nature, our ability to actually understand things, so on and so forth.
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Infact, that's the irony here. What If there really is a God out here somewhere then I'm sure those blindly obedient people
I love how you set yourself up here as somehow better than others. Like you aren't blindly obedient to your sinful nature, or blindly obedient to the world's philosophy. Blindly obedient to the psychological barriers you've erected to keep God out.
What you've said here is just a way for you to self-reaffirm your own beliefs. How do you know you're not wrong? How do you know your philosophy and worldview are holding you back? In fact, according to you you're not more right than anyone else, so that means if you believe anything about anything, you're stuck in group-think, and you're blindly obedient to your beliefs.
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A.) are wrong about a lot of things, far more wrong than right
There is a lot of confusion and outright lying spread around. But everyone is accountable to God's word, the bible, and its the way everyone can hold other believers accountable.
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I wonder how that God's reaction would be when he finds out that they are worshipping a none-existing clone God instead of Him
There are a lot of different religions. The Quran claims the semen originates in the chest, so that excludes the other major religion.
I won't get into all of the religions, but the bible is full of prophecies that came true, wisdom that anyone can access, and a no-nonsense doctrine. What do you think God will say when He finds people have ignored the obvious signs He's left for everyone?
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Oww, I thought the avarage atheist according to the church listens to death metal and worships satan?
Nope, the average atheist doesn't believe in God, as the namesake implies. Churches don't spend time talking about atheists. They warn about letting things like death metal influence your mind. But that's all.
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Isn't that what you've been told? Not? Oww, now that would be a definate first!
I haven't been told that. Personal experience (almost everyone I know is an atheist) speaks clearly enough.
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There's no paradox, since this can be explained.
No it can't because without God the universe doesn't exist. I defy you to come up with a logical explanation for the existence of the universe that excludes a supernatural creator.
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If He isn't physical, well that causes some paradoxes... How can a none-physical being influence the physical
Well, by definition this non-physical being created the universe. So influencing the physical wouldn't be that difficult.
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(science more or less ruled out 'magic', so try again )
Ruled out magic, but not a Creator. If you want to claim that the creation of the nature out of the supernatural is magic, then you claim that the universe is magic and science disproved our existence.
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and how could we know or tell this, since we can't notice it. Again, the most logical explanation is that he doesn't exist.
Everyone is a witness to the creation so they're without excuse. [Romans 1:20]
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It's definately NOT arrogant to state we don't know and think you are wrong, it IS however very arrogant to think your God exists and you know this to be true as a fact, because you do seem to claim this...
I've offered a logical reason to believe God exists. Et tu?
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You've turned this argument around, just like the 'why would I believe in a God without any evidence' argument of me earlier(different thread I think). You've also stated that you could believe for exactly the same argument, that's very odd reasoning imho.
I've done no such thing. I made a claim (God exists and created the universe). I then provided logic to back it up and bible verses that I think solidify the God of the bible as THE God. You on the other hand have done next to nothing to back up your claim that God doesn't exist except you think it makes more sense. But that's just a claim. Typically, in a good debate, claims are made and then backed up with some kind of universal reasoning.
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If we don't know something at all,
Again, this is a claim without any reasoning. Tell me why you believe we can't know God exists?
I've already told you why we can.
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you can't go claim what you wish to be true, that's ignorance's finest and plain arrogance.
This is a very poignant statement.
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 07/10/06 23:51.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#76282
07/11/06 00:22
07/11/06 00:22
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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I love how you set yourself up here as somehow better than others. Like you aren't blindly obedient to your sinful nature, or blindly obedient to the world's philosophy. Blindly obedient to the psychological barriers you've erected to keep God out.
What you've said here is just a way for you to self-reaffirm your own beliefs. How do you know you're not wrong? How do you know your philosophy and worldview are holding you back? In fact, according to you you're not more right than anyone else, so that means if you believe anything about anything, you're stuck in group-think, and you're blindly obedient to your beliefs.
You think I do not know it better because you apparently do not think that evidence is required before believing ANYTHING. Well, that's fine for you, but that's simply not the way my mind works. Off course this makes my own believe superior to yours in MY opinion, why would I deny thinking I'm more right than you are? At least I've got good reasons for it ...
Well I didn't expected you to come with those 'psychological barriers to keep god out' kind of arguments, but I couldn't care less, since I could blame you of exactly the same thing. Infact, you still haven't told me why you believe in God, except your statement that you believe the bible to be true, but what kind of reasoning is that? Believing a story is hardly enough to justify the believe in a God.
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Nope, the average atheist doesn't believe in God, as the namesake implies. Churches don't spend time talking about atheists. They warn about letting things like death metal influence your mind. But that's all.
Yes, and another indication that they don't have a clue about death metal in the first place, just like christianity trying to prohibit the use of condoms in Africa. If they would have a better understanding of things, they wouldn't make themselves this ridiculous all the time.
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You seem to think God requires something magical from us. Like we need to immediately give up on living our lives, and become something...else. You don't suddenly not care to understand anything. You don't stop searching for truth, in fact the truth then becomes more clear because you have a direction, instead of wondering wherever your mind takes you. You're starting from the source of ultimate truth.
Mmm, when you keep telling yourself that you can know things you can not know, then how could things get more clear when it comes to truth?
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I won't get into all of the religions, but the bible is full of prophecies that came true, wisdom that anyone can access, and a no-nonsense doctrine. What do you think God will say when He finds people have ignored the obvious signs He's left for everyone?
Which prophecies came true, and exactly which hints? There are to many questions to say the least surrounding the bible itself, so it's hardly possible to see it as direct evidence for anything. e.g. There is no evidence for a worldwide flood rather exactly the opposite, 'judgement day' hasn't come yet either, the world still exists.
The vague prophecies that you must mean, like the socalled prophecy of world war II in the bible is so vague it could have meant anything. But please do come with examples, if there are more convincing or clear ones.
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Well, by definition this non-physical being created the universe. So influencing the physical wouldn't be that difficult.
Way to go, that's like saying, the color green is green, simply because we defined it as green, so it must be green. It still doesn't prove that it's actually green in reality though.
Yes, the very same definition of God that is required for Him to even be possible to exist, since it gives Him a artificial purpose, and guess what, that was invented by humans too. One of the main errors in the bible. It's not 'we know' or 'we think' 'God is blablabla', but it says 'God is blablabla', that's even worse than stating 'we know ... ', where off course we couldn't possibly know and that's exactly where the bible gives it away!
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No it can't because without God the universe doesn't exist. I defy you to come up with a logical explanation for the existence of the universe that excludes a supernatural creator.
You must have meant without God the universe might not exist, not "doesn't exist". Again, this clearly shows YOUR arrogance. Anyways, that's quite irrelevant, but just because you see God as a requirement for the existence of the universe, doesn't mean he actually is. There are plenty of ways the universe could have come into existence, with or without a creator. I don't think the Christian concept of God is THE most logical explanation for the existence of the universe. Infact, what makes it even logical according to you? I don't think creation of the earth is possible in those 6 or 7 days, especially not if literally meant.
I can't see or feel God, but maybe that's because he is gone now? If he's gone now, then what guarantee is there that he even once was around? I can't discover evidence of God's activities in the past, but maybe that's because his traces are very life itself? Considering evolution and the like, that for starters would contradict the biblical creation. If that's true then that still doesn't really provide anything that could answer the question wether or not his existence would make more sense than his none-existence would, which logically renders him totally irrelevant. ('+1-1=0') I don't see any evidence of divine interference either, maybe that's because there isn't any? Can I even trust the bible with all this knowledge, since they more or less claim to know what can't be known or seen, they specifically claim that 'God helped' more than once...
I find parting the seas and walking the water very fascinating to read about, but is it strange to demand some evidence before believing it as fact? I'm fascinating about superheroes that can fly too, wouldn't it be amazing if a human could fly like superman? Well, we all know we can't do that, so why believe in 'walking on the water' and changing 'water to wine'? Okey, I'll stop talking about some of the personal arguments against the possibility of a creator, I know you might think I'm far off from your question at the moment, but look at it like this, is there one reason why a creator would actually really make sense? I think a creator get's excluded automatically when you approach the question with pure logic. How did or more important how could the creator come into existence? If you think the universe requires a creator, then so must the creator require one for the exact same reason. So you tell me, what makes more sense?
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Everyone is a witness to the creation so they're without excuse. [Romans 1:20]
What creation? I can claim these kind of things too. I could say the flying spaghetti monster made the mountains, since we can all see there are mountains, still we haven't witnissed any creation at all.
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Again, this is a claim without any reasoning. Tell me why you believe we can't know God exists?
I've already told you why we can.
Exactly where did you tell me? I've already explained why it doesn't automatically makes sense, infact the opposite makes more sense, and not because I want to be more right than you, but because of proper reasoning, not by fantasizing about what might be. How can we possibly know God's existence? It's obvious that we can't know, since we haven't seen him or met him, or are able to notice him, there is no evidence pointing in his direction either, so what's the reason for being stubborn and think to know he exists still?
Again, h o w could we even know this ...
Cheers
Last edited by PHeMoX; 07/11/06 00:37.
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#76283
07/11/06 01:06
07/11/06 01:06
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
JetpackMonkey
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
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I already know what the good news is, so that's the only thing that seperates me from anyone else (well that and I have faith in Jesus' sacrifice).
Well, keep on 'proselytizing.
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: JetpackMonkey]
#76284
07/11/06 08:38
07/11/06 08:38
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
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Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
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You call me an atheist? Interesting. I call me an open minded being and I will believe in everything that sounds logic and is founded with evidences. God and creationism is not.
As a child I often called god to send me a sign. There was never a sign. So I read books and studied alot of knowledge and found way more logic in it.
It is not that you can call someone an atheist and then say: You must say that because you are one of them. We do not have rules like a religion prays. We are free and we think free. That's why we can learn from everything even from you.
As far as you show me enough evidences I will follow you without doubt. But you have no evidences at all. All you have are accusations.
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#76285
07/11/06 09:38
07/11/06 09:38
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,939
planet.earth
ello
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planet.earth
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As a child I often called god to send me a sign. There was never a sign.
although i dont call me very religous (in fact i already had a phase of pure satanic beliefs back some time) i can talk with god (atleast what i call god)
you just have to calm your squirky minds down so you can hear it.. ask your question and listen carefully:)
to the question:
god's god is god. nothing more nothing less
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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: ello]
#76286
07/11/06 10:20
07/11/06 10:20
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
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Interesting Ello. But I think I talk to my subconscious mind then. You will get only answers that you can imagine with your mind. A supernatural mind could give you thoughts that you never could have thought about. But that will never happen. But maybe you can tap into the minds of other people with your meditation. I can do it with some mystic games like tilting a table together with other people. But all that is not proof for a god. And from my mind a real god is so supernatural that we never could understand him with our limited minds. Consider a programmer and his artificial intelligent NPC's. Could they completely understand the programmer? They can only "think" in the way that they are allowed, like finding the path to the next node All stories from whatever religion in this world cannot describe a supernatural being. They can only guess how it feels as a human to admire something bigger and that can indeed be everything. A god is only an abstract a summary of all that cannot be understood. So god cannot be understood and all stories about god and his children like Jesus are man-made.
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