|
1 registered members (Akow),
1,403
guests, and 9
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#76287
07/11/06 10:39
07/11/06 10:39
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,939
planet.earth
ello
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,939
planet.earth
|
Quote:
You will get only answers that you can imagine with your mind.
yes, thats why so many ppl are going insane. but if your openminded this wont happen. its a question of fearing the unknown or just take it as how it comes upon you.
i'd guess that a god would speak in understandable tongue (i prefer speaking in images here) which reaches not only the rational human being but the human beaing in its total awareness and maybe the unconscious parts, too, which help giving us a certain perception
hearing god is more kind of a feeling
interesting thought about the ai-programmer, here:) but i guess you'd need to be a very tough programmer to teach your ai-creations to even get aware of you. if there is a god, i believe he/she is tough enough to do so, as he/she built the computer, too
|
|
|
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: ello]
#76288
07/11/06 10:47
07/11/06 10:47
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
|
If that would be true then all dreams would come from god. But why do all people that I know dream realistic stuff and I dream only crazy things at strange locations, other planets, living under water and things like that? Maybe my god is a sci-fi god 
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
|
|
|
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: ello]
#76290
07/11/06 11:20
07/11/06 11:20
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
|
Yes, Ello. That is a serious anxiety. Then indeed my god is an alien god.
I never trusted the egoistic being of the christian god. I like natural gods much more like gods of then indians, american natives, australian natives and such. And my god is from the outer space, haha. I will start to worship his/her being right now, hahumba, hahimba, cooka coomba, calimba...
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
|
|
|
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#76292
07/13/06 00:48
07/13/06 00:48
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
|
User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
|
Quote:
You think I do not know it better because you apparently do not think that evidence is required before believing ANYTHING.
When have I ever demonstrated this kind of thinking?
You can't just make assumptions about my belief and then just keep talking as if you're assumptions are true. That would be believing something without evidence.
Before you say that I have no evidence of God, I've given you evidence, but I'll address that later.
Quote:
Off course this makes my own believe superior to yours in MY opinion, why would I deny thinking I'm more right than you are? At least I've got good reasons for it ...
Reasons you apparently don't feel like sharing, as I've mentioned you have no reason to believe there is no creator, and you respond by going after the bible. Which wasn't exactly the [whole] point of this discussion.
Quote:
Infact, you still haven't told me why you believe in God, except your statement that you believe the bible to be true, but what kind of reasoning is that?
Well, you've either intentionally ignored what I've previously posted, or you don't agree with my evidence, but you haven't given a reason why.
For instance, the prophecy in Psalms centuries before Jesus was born about how He would die. In the psalms it says, "They peirce my hands and feet." Executing people on a cross wasn't even around back then. Please see my reference in the previous post. Later in that verse it talks about people drawing up lots for the clothing. Which is what happened to Jesus after being stapled to the cross. Kind of a strange coincidence.
I doubt you'll see this as 'proof' but its one of many reasons I find the bible to be likely. Amongst others are things we take for granted scientifically being shown to be true in the bible.
-The stars being greater in number than sand on a beach (certainly wouldn't look that way to an ancient). Genesis 15:5 Jeremiah 33:22 Hebrews 11:12
-The earth being round, and having rotation (day and night). This includes a reference to some that are asleep, and others are working in the field in seemingly the same moment. If the earth were flat, it would be day everywhere, or night everywhere. Luke 17:34-36 Isaiah 40:22 (Also seems to suggest that space is expanding, although I don't really think I agree with that).
-The earth is floating 'on nothing.' Job 26-7
-Jews and Arabs are descended from one man. Link.
-Predicts the hydrological cycle at a time everyone else thought rain came from the 'gods' with no further explanation. Why wouldn't Israel give an equally ignorant account? Is it possible that they're the true 'myth'? Job 36:27-28 Amos 9:6
-The bible also seems to predict that air molecules have weight. Job 28:25
-Predicts entropy (thermodynamics). Psalms.102:25-26 Isaiah 51:6
-Time had a beginning. 1 Timothy 1:8-9
-Springs in the sea. Job 38:16
There are more.
On the other hand, the atheist creation myth of evolution caused some dentists to remove wisdom teeth when they shouldn't have. Causing problems. Good work.  But anyway, this isn't about evolution.....I'm just taking a stab.
These of course aren't the only reasons I find the bible to make sense. But they're among the reasons. The bible hasn't conflicted science on any testable hypothesis since it was written until today. In fact, its predicted some things which we later discovered to be true.
This alone seperates it from any other religion, and also lends it some credibility. In fact, every other religion appears to be a false branch of the Jewish beliefs. As if there was someone trying to spread confusion around or something...:)
Amongst the many other predictions about historical events (nations being destroyed), Jesus' life, and so on. Those are the clues that should pique our physical minds. But that's no replacement for a spiritual understanding of God's word, which is more important than any prediction.
Other reasons would include the no-nonsense doctrine. (For instance, the idea that nothing we can do will please God and the only thing that will save us is that He offers us salvation despite our complete inability to do what's right. Most other major religions focus on 'works' as a means of salvation. Jesus Himself showed such an amazing understanding of the Torah, that He continually put the religious 'experts' of His day to shame in such simple ways. What He says makes sense, etc.
Anyway, whether or not you find any of this interesting, or convincing is your deal, I'm just explaining why I think there is evidence. So no need to respond to my evidences, let's keep this to the point, because now I want to get the explanation I still haven't received. What possible reason could the universe exist without a creator? Tell me, what natural process creates nature?
But therein lies your problem. In order for a natural process to exist to create the universe, the universe must exist. You can't have the universe before the universe is created.
So, if you could just break it down logically, that would be great.
Quote:
Yes, and another indication that they don't have a clue about death metal in the first place
What is there to know about music that celebrates death? You can have the death metal style, without having crap for lyrics, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with the music, per se, its the emotional effect it has on people. And you can't say it doesn't. People are puppets (in a sense), they'll conform to whatever strikes them as emotionally pleasing (even if its emotionally negative, or empty).
But that's really not the point of this discussion.
Quote:
just like christianity trying to prohibit the use of condoms in Africa.
The only thing I've heard is that the Vatican opposes condoms. Christians espouse something like the ABC policy, as far as I know. Abstinence, something else, and condoms. Roman Catholicism is in direct violation of many biblical principles anyway, so I don't care what they agree or disagree with.
Quote:
If they would have a better understanding of things, they wouldn't make themselves this ridiculous all the time.
A better understanding would server everyone better. Including 'free minded' atheists. If there is such a thing.
Quote:
Mmm, when you keep telling yourself that you can know things you can not know, then how could things get more clear when it comes to truth?
When did I say I can know things I can't know? I've said that some things are unfathomable, but the important things aren't unfathomable.
Apparently for you, things don't get as clear as the truth. I'm not going to debate this here, but you take the philosophical position that all truth is relative. So, for you there is no 'clear cut' solution to the truth.
Quote:
There is no evidence for a worldwide flood rather exactly the opposite,
I certainly wouldn't say there's conclusive evidence of a biblical flood. But there is evidence that evolutionists are wrong, and most of the earth points to massive catastrophe. Whether its the kind of catastrophe the bible talks about or not is up to the individual to decide.
Quote:
'judgement day' hasn't come yet either, the world still exists.
By this way of thinking, I can dump evolution out the window. You can't take a 'I'll believe it when it happens, or I see it,' approach or you'll have to throw many of your beliefs out the window.
Quote:
like the socalled prophecy of world war II
I never heard of this, and I would be immediately skeptical.
Quote:
Way to go, that's like saying, the color green is green, simply because we defined it as green, so it must be green. It still doesn't prove that it's actually green in reality though.
The point is that I'm trying to use a process of elimination to determine what the likely start of the universe is.
Quote:
but it says 'God is blablabla', that's even worse than stating 'we know ... ', where off course we couldn't possibly know and that's exactly where the bible gives it away!
I can't argue this because you haven't given a single example, or even a vague reference to why you believe this. You haven't even given me a logical reason that God can't be understood. Even if He couldn't be understood, that isn't a requisite to His existence. Whether or not the ancients understood atoms, they still existed.
The nature of existence is that things exist regardless of what we know, feel, or think about them.
Quote:
Anyways, that's quite irrelevant, but just because you see God as a requirement for the existence of the universe, doesn't mean he actually is.
Yes, but if I don't take the position that God is a requirement, no one will. So I'm coming from my own perspective. You can come from yours.
The reason I said this, was because I'm trying to prompt any of you to give a logical reason the universe could exist forever, or have created itself. I have yet to hear it. Criticizing the bible doesn't prove the universe can create itself.
Quote:
There are plenty of ways the universe could have come into existence, with or without a creator.
Like?
Quote:
I think a creator get's excluded automatically when you approach the question with pure logic.
You keep making statements, but you never back them up. Please enlighten me with this logic.
Quote:
How did or more important how could the creator come into existence?
If God can't exist for no reason, than neither can the universe and you've just destroyed your own argument.
Quote:
If you think the universe requires a creator, then so must the creator require one for the exact same reason.
Except we know the universe had a beginning. God doesn't have a beginning, so there's no room for a creator.
Quote:
So you tell me, what makes more sense?
You tell me. How exactly does a natural process create the universe? You don't need to know the exact science, it could be, "The universe has always existed." Or something. I wouldn't recommend that one because I can easily refute it, but something simple like that.
Quote:
Exactly where did you tell me?
I gave a reason time couldn't have existed forever. If it hasn't, then there was a beginning. You chose not to direct any of the logic I applied to the origin of the universe and instead attacked my belief in God and the bible. Which, while not completely irrelevant, lacked any substantial reasoning to explain what you believe.
Quote:
I've already explained why it doesn't automatically makes sense, infact the opposite makes more sense, and not because I want to be more right than you, but because of proper reasoning, not by fantasizing about what might be.
That's easy to say, but you have yet to give a reason. "The universe can create itself because who created God." Isn't a reason.
Quote:
How can we possibly know God's existence?
Like, say, if He left a book and performed undeniably impossible deeds, like raising someone from the dead (Jesus). You can say people lied about it, but when they not only risked their lives, but died by claiming this, I would have to ask what their motivation was.
Quote:
It's obvious that we can't know, since we haven't seen him or met him,
I haven't seen a supernova with my own eyes, but I believe it exists. That's not a reason something doesn't exist.
Quote:
Well, keep on 'proselytizing.
If I did have any notion of converting any of you, I would have been forced to give up on that a long time ago.
Quote:
You call me an atheist? Interesting. I call me an open minded being and I will believe in everything that sounds logic and is founded with evidences. God and creationism is not.
Do you know all evidence in existence? No? Then you don't know what is and what isn't based on evidence. You can say that you don't know of any evidence, of course, but you can't claim something does or does not have evidence definately.
Quote:
As a child I often called god to send me a sign. There was never a sign.
Tell me now, what sign would be enough to convince you of God's existence? Something we can comprehend (once again, not a square circle). I've asked this several times and other atheists have failed to respond.
Quote:
So I read books and studied alot of knowledge and found way more logic in it.
I've studied a lot of atheist philosophy and I have yet to hear anything that makes sense. So we'll call it even.
Quote:
It is not that you can call someone an atheist and then say: You must say that because you are one of them. We do not have rules like a religion prays. We are free and we think free. That's why we can learn from everything even from you.
But you'll never be able to consider any evidence in favor of God, because you're convinced He does not exist. So you're not free to think whatever you want. But if you're not sure whether or not God exists, then you're not an atheist.
The idea is self-contradictory (surprise, surprise). If you're free to not be an atheist, then you're an agnostic because you're not sure. But if you're sure there is no God, then you won't listen to any evidence, because you'll rationalize the evidence, in which case you're not free, you're stuck to your line of reasoning.
So you're not really free. You're stuck being an atheist. For a group of free thinkers, I have yet to hear anything new from any of you that I haven't heard from atheists before. Strange how that works, like you're all stuck in some kind of identical thought pattern.
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 07/13/06 01:30.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
|
|
|
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#76293
07/13/06 06:00
07/13/06 06:00
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Here's the thing, we're going to forever go in logic circles (an endless loop if you will) about the unvierse's begining, because if you say that things cannot be created uncaused, then god needs a cause, and since god is by definition omnipotent, and you state that things can only become/create less complex things, there can be no cause - which makes your logic contradictory, and no god more likely. But then, the other alternative is that the universe was created by a natural process - what caused this process? why another one, and so on and so forth, such that I believe you can only see it as an infinite regresion of causes.
Kind of reminds me of an old myth that the world rested on the back of four giant elephants on a giant turtle. When asked what the turtle rested on, a head priest would reply 'it's turtles all the way down'
I have yet to see any evidence that an infinite regression of events is less plausable then an omnipotent being.
|
|
|
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#76295
07/13/06 09:13
07/13/06 09:13
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
Matt_Aufderheide
Expert
|
Expert
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
|
Quote:
And my god is from the outer space, haha. I will start to worship his/her being right now, hahumba, hahimba, cooka coomba, calimba...
Lol..
Quote:
-The stars being greater in number than sand on a beach (certainly wouldn't look that way to an ancient). Genesis 15:5 Jeremiah 33:22 Hebrews 11:12
-The earth being round, and having rotation (day and night). This includes a reference to some that are asleep, and others are working in the field in seemingly the same moment. If the earth were flat, it would be day everywhere, or night everywhere. Luke 17:34-36 Isaiah 40:22 (Also seems to suggest that space is expanding, although I don't really think I agree with that).
-The earth is floating 'on nothing.' Job 26-7
-Jews and Arabs are descended from one man. Link.
-Predicts the hydrological cycle at a time everyone else thought rain came from the 'gods' with no further explanation. Why wouldn't Israel give an equally ignorant account? Is it possible that they're the true 'myth'? Job 36:27-28 Amos 9:6
-The bible also seems to predict that air molecules have weight. Job 28:25
-Predicts entropy (thermodynamics). Psalms.102:25-26 Isaiah 51:6
-Time had a beginning. 1 Timothy 1:8-9
-Springs in the sea. Job 38:16
Sigh, where to begin with this horsecrap.. Im not even sure I want to bother, but here goes...
Have you ever looked up at the Milky Way? You can see a heck of a lot stars on clear night away form outdoor lights. Back then they didnt have any artifial electric lihgts and air polution..
Quote:
The earth being round, and having rotation (day and night). This includes a reference to some that are asleep, and others are working in the field in seemingly the same moment. If the earth were flat, it would be day everywhere, or night everywhere.
This is why I sometimes have trouble believing you are not stupid. Obviously there always is day and night(execpt at polar latitudes)... and not everyone who knew this fact thought the Earth was round. They believed the sun moved around the Earth too, which would caus eday and night even if the earth was flat... this would sort sort of rule out your logic here.
Even if they DID know the Earth was round , or curved at least(and i have a hard time believing any sailor didnt know that), so what? The ancient Greeks figured that out too, they even calculated the circumference. Are they prophets?
Sorry, this theory is just plain stupid...think a bit
Quote:
The earth is floating 'on nothing.'
Well.. what does a statement like this prove? That someone could have a thought that was somewhat near the truth, even without seeing it first? That's called reasoning...and frankly not a very profound leap either.
Quote:
Jews and Arabs are descended from one man.
Yes thats the common belief, and they reason they are called 'Semites' sons of Shem. However, this is almost certainly NOT TRUE. and even if it were, how can that be prophetic? Maybe they just had good record keeping.
Quote:
Predicts the hydrological cycle at a time everyone else thought rain came from the 'gods' with no further explanation. Why wouldn't Israel give an equally ignorant account? Is it possible that they're the true 'myth'?
I'm not sure "everyone else" thought rain came from the gods.. where do you get this idea from? While certainly some groups may have believed that, others, such the Greeks agains, knew better. This is just a stupid attempt to mislead poeple by using false premises.
Quote:
The bible also seems to predict that air molecules have weight.
While I'm pretty sure they didnt have molecular theory back then, its also a no-brainer.. anyone can tell that air has some weight...just fill a leather skin up with air, and light a fire underneath, the air will rise, then when it cools off, the air sinks. Again, this is not even slightly prophetic. Give the ancient poeple some credit; mnay of them were a lot smarter than you seem to be.
Quote:
Predicts entropy (thermodynamics).
Uhuh, and Nostradumus predicted lots of stuff too. Give me a break.. because we can see a relationship between an ancient concept or statement and a modern one, doesnt mean they foresaw the future science behind it.
The ancient Greeks had an atomic theory, a chemical theory, and invented the steam engine. The Romans used poured conrete 2000 years before the Europeans did, they had inddor plubming and heating, and built high rise apartements. Some arab cities has street lights in the middle ages.
Your way of thinking seem to suggest that any progress in thinking, opr any idea is a prophecy. There are much better arguments to prove the existence of God. These are laughable, and frankly make you look incredibly ignorant by quoting them here.
|
|
|
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox)
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#76296
07/13/06 23:18
07/13/06 23:18
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
|
User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
|
Quote:
Have you ever looked up at the Milky Way? You can see a heck of a lot stars on clear night away form outdoor lights. Back then they didnt have any artifial electric lihgts and air polution..
If this is a first response, then its a good sign of the weakness to come in the rest of your arguments.
Even on a clear, light pollutionless sky, it certainly would not seem that there are more stars than sand on the beach.
Quote:
Obviously there always is day and night(execpt at polar latitudes)... and not everyone who knew this fact thought the Earth was round.
Read my source. The verse talks about people sleeping and working at the same time which is the important aspect of that verse. Other people knew there was day and night, yes. That much is obvious by observation. But without knowing the earth was round, you wouldn't assume it would be day for some people and night for others.
Quote:
The ancient Greeks figured that out too,
Your source? It would be important to know when, amongst other things.
Quote:
That someone could have a thought that was somewhat near the truth, even without seeing it first? That's called reasoning...and frankly not a very profound leap either.
Ok, compare that to the knowledge the Jews had at this time, and then compare that to what everyone else thought about the earth at that time. You're looking at this from a modern viewpoint. The best way to see this would be through their eyes.
Quote:
However, this is almost certainly NOT TRUE.
Except they compared the genetics of Jews and Arabs and found they were descended from the same 'man.' So why is it certainly not true?
Quote:
and even if it were, how can that be prophetic? Maybe they just had good record keeping.
Its not actually prophetic. The bible doesn't directly state the relationship, but this helps validate the genealogy of the bible which, if you extrapolate what's written, places the Jews and the Arabs as descending from, I believe, Abraham.
Now we just have the science to back it up.
Quote:
I'm not sure "everyone else" thought rain came from the gods.. where do you get this idea from?
The idea that rain is formed when bodies of water evaporate into the clouds, is extremely specific considering the scientific knowledge they had back then. In fact, the bible specifically calls the evaporation, "little drops" or "mist".
Quote:
such the Greeks agains, knew better.
Again, a source including date and time would be convenient.
Quote:
anyone can tell that air has some weight...just fill a leather skin up with air, and light a fire underneath, the air will rise, then when it cools off, the air sinks.
Which I'm sure they did all the time back then. And even if they did, I'm sure they would have assumed it was because air has weight.
Quote:
Uhuh, and Nostradumus predicted lots of stuff too.
Except he didn't/doesn't and his supposed predictions are blown way out of proportion and have more to do with misunderstanding. However, take this for instance.
Comparing a garment wearing out to the universe wearing out (as the bible does) is quite ahead of its time. In fact, the idea that the universe is infinite was a pretty recent view. Its difficult not to make the connection between what we know for sure to be true because of science, and what they knew to be true through God.
Compare that to the ripoff of Jewish belief, Islam. The Quran says semen comes from the chest. This is what happens when someone is just pulling stuff out of their butt. They make incorrect assumptions, and they certainly won't consistently get scientific principles right thousands of years before we know for sure it really is right.
Quote:
Even a few evidences are way more than creationism that provides simply no evidences at all.
I will not respond to all your other quotes that sound completely out of logic to me.
Ok, that's fine that you believe that. But my point was that you can't say with certainty that creationism has no evidence, because you don't know all possible evidences. That doesn't mean creationism does have evidence, but it means you need to 'check' your comments about what you think you know.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
|
|
|
|
