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Define exist.
Define universe.



I'm not going to bust out the dictionary. You reference a lot of EM bursts and whatnot, if they don't exist (inside of this universe) then don't bother mentioning them.

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We have no clue what the universe is, how can we know it exists?



For me, you asking that question answers it. Our understanding of something isn't a requisite of its existence. We didn't know what gravity was (maybe we still don't) but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect us at all times.

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As far as we know there are no absolutes in nature. EX. the fine structure 'constant' is in fact changing slowly. What does that mean? The universe is not fine-tuned, or if it is then somebody has definetly been lazy lately with keeping it so.



Actually, last I heard it was up in the air and they were hoping to experimentally clarify earlier results by the end of this year.

Assuming the fine structure constant is changing, the universe hasn't decended into chaos yet.

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Everything is variable, everything is relative. There are no absolute co-ordiantes because there is no absolute origin point.



Ok.

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Maybe you should take a look at your perfect natural machine, your fine-tuned universe created specifically for us



I don't think it was created for us. If it was, you're right it probably wouldn't look like it does. I wouldn't expect the universe to be specifically created down to every detail just for us, though. I mean, I'm flattered that I'm part of the only species able to grasp the universe (to an extent), but I have no delusions of importance. The universe is in many ways finely tuned for life, but we're not living in a bubble meant just for humans. In fact, I'd be contradicting the bible if I wanted to believe otherwise.

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the vast majority - and I mean VAST - of space is well... space. Where giant nuclear furnaces whip around crushing darknesses, drawn slowly in over millions of years... Where tiny dense spinning balls fire off streams of death. Where unexplainable bursts of massive amounts of radiation fire into the permanent blackness. Where all of this is merely another level of tiny building block to the grand scheme of things... Where everything our brains -so tailored to this tiny rock - can comprehend ceases to apply.


Then ask yourself, what do I really know? What is certainty? how can I truly believe that there are moral absolutes, that these ideas from the minds of social apes have any merit?



Its rather interesting to follow the atheist line of reasoning here. I'm not trying to belittle what you're saying here, if that's what it sounds like. It just really helps me see things from your viewpoint like I never could before. I don't know, your diction is interesting too, "crushing darkness", "streams of death", "permanent blackness" and so on.

I can definately see why you would feel the way you feel if this is the way you perceive the universe around you.

I don't know, I've always felt privelaged to be a witness to 'the show' if you will. Where you see permanent blackness, I see a sprawling canvas. Where you see streams of death, I see something akin to a cosmic fireworks show. Frankly, the creation never ceases to amaze me, and its one of the few beautiful things that's too far out of our reach to 'taint'; Lord knows we've really managed to mess things up here on earth. Sure, most of these things are dangerous from the perspective of life. But think about how dangerous and destructive the sun is, even though we couldn't survive without it. I don't see danger, I see opportunity (in a sense).

I have to ask you a question though.

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Then ask yourself, what do I really know? What is certainty? how can I truly believe that there are moral absolutes, that these ideas from the minds of social apes have any merit?



Then how can you trust yourself? Why should I believe any of the conclusions you or any relativist comes to? How do you know that you're right about the 'hopeless' situation we 'advanced apes' find ourselves in? The problem I have, according to you, doesn't just apply to me.

The whole relativist philosophy says that I'm not more right than you are, even though I'm saying the exact opposite of what you're saying. Something doesn't match up.

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Logic does not apply to existance.



I don't think you could prove that without using logic. Although I wouldn't mind having a debate on the existence of logic, because that's something an atheist might have a hard time with when it comes to accounting for its existence.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 09/13/06 05:19.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."