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Re: Multiplayer Online Games #81
08/25/00 00:33
08/25/00 00:33

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While dropping 250,000 at Conitec's feet is a cool idea...I must disagree with some of the other observations.

The Lithtec engine is so very capable of making RPG's...in fact, if you had the cash, you could probably make an RPG using Lithtec faster than A4. Read up on that engine...I've seen magazines, web articles etc. and it seems to me to be the best choice. But, support? I obviously don't know because I haven't managed to scrape up enough change to lisence it...

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Happiness is seeing your mother-in-laws picture on the back of a milk carton.

Spectre


Re: Multiplayer Online Games #82
08/25/00 03:44
08/25/00 03:44

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Lets go down the issues

** Thanks to all the users who told me to respond to this message **

Classes are no problems. Classes are no more then skills, and arrays being defined against tables that due certain tasks. Link this to the correct model and wala a class is formed. It is not that hard. Many people can tell you here how flexible A4 is. Something that I do believe is a true asset in a RPG environment.

We started he Unknown on 3.x and changed over to 4.x for multi-player purposes. We are currently using our own development code but we have been told by the time A5 comes out our code will not be needed. We been n close contact with JCl, and are starting to actually see some of our coding idea’s come up in A4. The first one is file instruction.

Right now even with our special module, we can have up to 1500 people connect to one game server. We have tried more and we have a noticeable lag. We are working on isolating the lag problem, and we are re-defining our packets. We have also have done it with world servers, where zones are on different servers simulating 1000’s of people online. A4 handled it.

Now to be honest it was not all 100% easy. But support was never an issue, no matter how crazy the question was or how stupid it might have been JCl always gave us an answer. There has bene times when I have email him 10-15 times a day, I know he probably deleted some of them <hhehehe> but for the most part he has answered it.

It is not going to be easy to code it with the existing version of A4, but with the changes that are starting to be implemented and are coming I do feel it is 1000 times easier now then it was when we first started. We have gone back and implemented array’s now saving us 1000’s of line of code and actually speeding up the process. We are now removing save and load features for shops inventory with the new file instruction that is on the way and so on. Overall I can say it can be done. But it does take time.

I cannot tell you it going to take you 6 months if you buy A4 to produce a RPG world. And to be honest none of the other companies can tell you 6 months and you can go. It depends on the experience of the people you have working with you and the knowledge of the system.

But before you go jump for that 250,000 bill, you might want to look at a few things:

- Customer commitment
On this forum you will never see us say it is a stupid question or not worth answering. We help even the most novice user.
- Price
Price does not always mean better. Even with the best engine in the world, if you lack the talent to program it and do something with it mise well be a toaster oven
- Expandable
You better look at the features, A4 continues to expand it features month after month with updates. Features keep coming, and features can be added if need by JCl and the Crew

Now about RPG worlds, if you think you can produce one in 6 month’s good luck. Even AC, EQ, Middle Earth, HQ took at least 2 years to develop and extensive testing. Maybe an alpha test in 6 months but in a small scale way could be possible beta your going to need one hell of a crew or some coding designed into the engine or an engine that has it already done.

Right now, we have nearly 35 classes in the Unknown, 135 skills, over 300+ different model monsters, over 1500 other models with animation frames ranging from 100-3500 frames. We use 3ds max, to create our models, and use 3ds max to export our levels, with custom tools. We have nearly 5700 textures, and nearly 534,789 lines of WDL coding. We also have 16 visual C+ libraries to help us multi-player. So overall A4 will do it, but it takes the time to do it.

Hardware is key to how many people will fit on a server but you need to take another look. Size of packet also. I can lag the best server in the world with 10 people if my packet is large. Keep the packet small server specs high you will have no problems.

Oh and I have to agree with Srotcho the A4 users now have it made. I will tell you what I have told many of them now. Buy A4 now, get your levels done get your code down, get those NPC a moving because once A5 comes all you need to do is input your multi-player code and be done. So even though it very hard with A4 now, and we are doing alpha test with A4 code, we know when A5 comes the Unknown will be done as a huge multi-player game. A5 is slated for December or January release. The Unknown is not slated for public testing until then, more to see if we can eliminate our libraries and to insured when we do release that everyone knows Conitec’s WDL language was used.


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Lead Developer
Unknown Quest for the Golden Dragon

[This message has been edited by Kevin Ross (edited 24 August 2000).]


Re: Multiplayer Online Games #83
08/25/00 04:18
08/25/00 04:18

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Unknown rulez
Kevin rulez

Regards,
scotchco

P.S.:

Spectre, about the Lithtech: Personally, I feel the Vulpine to be vastly superior. With the bone animation there, you can give an actor the command to e.g. pick up some object, and the engine does all the rest of the animation stuff for you, moving the actor there, animating it to pick up the object, etc... However, it's also vastly expensive... Also that may be a matter of taste and perception (and the Vulpine company being located in the town where I live)...

"The Lithtec engine is so very capable of making RPG's..."

Actually, when you look at Vampire, which is the current prime example, in a certain way, yes. But what about EQ style multiplayer? Generally speaking it's a BSP engine like many others, maybe better here, maybe worse there. At least IMHO

"in fact, if you had the cash, you could probably make an RPG using Lithtec faster than A4."

I really enjoy the "probably" here. Actually if you couldn't it wouldn't be worth the money, would it?

"Read up on that engine..."

Done that when looking for one for our project.

"I've seen magazines, web articles etc. and it seems to me to be the best choice."

As I said, matter of taste.

"But, support?"

It can be, in no way, better than that from Conitec, now can it?

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DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD?
http://fogi.webloft.de
http://www.fogi.de (wenn's mal tut)


Re: Multiplayer Online Games #84
08/25/00 21:00
08/25/00 21:00

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Sorry,

dont know very much about Multiplayer with A4.

Is it possible to only send variables (skills) and nothing else to server?
Then the server send this Variables to the clints?

If yes, i think its not a great problem to make "Multi Level" Game.



Re: Multiplayer Online Games #85
08/25/00 21:23
08/25/00 21:23

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Hi Madcat,
I don't think it's that easy. Think of the following: you have two players simultaneously in a map. This map is run by a server instance. Now, one of the two players leaves the map and enters another map, but the second player decides to stay.
What do you do? The server engine can only run one level at a time. So, you need to have a second server instance running for the second map. Now, how do you tell the client to re-connect somehow to that second server? How is the first server instance supposed to yield information about the client state to the second server instance? Without a lot of add-on, as described by Kevin, this is not easily possible in the current A4 (be we hope for the best for A5).

Regards,
scotchco

------------------
DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD?
http://fogi.webloft.de
http://www.fogi.de (wenn's mal tut)


Re: Multiplayer Online Games #86
08/26/00 00:16
08/26/00 00:16

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Hi Scotcho (ich red mal Deutsch*gg*).

Stell dir mal vor, das Level läuft nicht auf deinen Server sondern auf jedem Client?
Der Server wird nur als Variabel_weitergeb_Maschine benutzt.

Ich versuchs mal ganz grob zu erklären:
1 Server/4 Clients

Clients loggen sich ein...und geben dem Server nen Skill damit er weis welches Level gerade auf dem Client läuft.
Ok..ein client ist auf level 1...vier Skills stehen zu verfügung für Level 1(beim server)..server checkt ob skills besetzt sind wenn nicht wird dem client gesagt was für ne ID er auf Level 1 hat..
(müsste ja jetzt mittels VAR kjkj {3} gehen.
erster Wert ist ID, zweiter Level, dritter X.pos usw.)

Player Client gibt jetzt x,y,z usw. coordinaten an server. Dieser gibts an die andren clients weiter.

Ein Skript beim Client bewertet und sortiert jetzt die VARS aus.
Wenn der Level Wert des VARS übereinstimmt mit dem Level Wert des Client Levels, dann stellt Client z.B. ein Model auf diese Pos.
Die ID verhindert dann das alle x,y,z Werte usw. an das selbe Model gehen.

Bei nem level change vom client ist der Level Wert anders...server vergleicht..wenn ID die selbe, aber Level anders.. dann das Signal zum löschen des Models.
Setzt z.B. ID=0...client skript löscht alles mit id 0;
dann neue ID an Client mit neuen Level Wert.

Äh..ich hoffe mein Arabisch und das Prinzip war etwas verständlich.
Ich glaub das lässt sich WDLen.

Was hältst Du davon?
JLC/DOUG würde sowas gehen?

Vorraussetzung währe halt das man z.B den dritten Wert im VAR auch direkt abfragen kann. Also wenn IDLEVEL dritter Wert =2 usw.
Kenn mich mit dem Var noch nicht soo aus.
Bleibe derzeit bis auf wenige Ausnahmen noch bei der alten WDL-Schreibweise sonst check ich mein Skript nicht mehr.
Und Multiplayer ist erst nach Weinachten bei mir angesagt.

Und wie nennt man das Var?*gg* Sind das Arrays?

Bekomm ich ne "Prof Version" wenn ich son ne Demo mache und ein Tutorial dazu (natürlich ohne Schreibfehler...hehe)?*gggggg*



Re: Multiplayer Online Games #87
08/26/00 00:20
08/26/00 00:20

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äh..ja, keine ahnung ob man solche VARS mit A4 auch verschicken kann...



Re: Multiplayer Online Games #88
08/26/00 00:28
08/26/00 00:28

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Hi,
soweit ich weiß ist es so das der Level auf dem Server und dem Client läuft, Entitys existieren aber nur auf dem Server.
Auf dem Server kann immer nur ein Level laufen, da man immer A4 immer nur einmal laufen lassen kann.
Vieleicht wird das noch geändert, aber im Moment ist es wohl nicht möglich.
Oder täusche ich mich da JCL?

Kaylie
http://www.dark-design.de

[This message has been edited by Kaylie (edited 25 August 2000).]


Re: Multiplayer Online Games #89
08/26/00 00:37
08/26/00 00:37

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Hi Madcat,
Kaylie hat (leider) recht.

"Stell dir mal vor, das Level läuft nicht auf deinen Server sondern auf jedem Client?"

Vorstellen kann ich mir alles mögliche, nur ändert das nichts an den Tatsachen:

n Clients - 1 Server - 1 Level

mehr ist mit der A4 (ohne den von Kevin beschriebenen Aufwand) nicht drin. Levelwechsel gehen zwar, aber nur für alle Client Entities gleichzeitig (Beispiel: Vampire). EQ mässige MMORPGs sind damit gar nicht so easy zu Prototypen.

MfG,
scotchco

------------------
DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD?
http://fogi.webloft.de
http://www.fogi.de (wenn's mal tut)


Re: Multiplayer Online Games #90
08/26/00 06:29
08/26/00 06:29

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@Scottcho
LOL, jaaa, klar hab's kapiert.


Also Frage an JLC/DOUG. Wäre es soo schwer
die Möglichkeit einzubauen das ein Var per Send an den Server geschickt wird? Und dieser alle empfangenen Vars an die einzelnen Clients schickt?

Geht doch, nur mit Strings...

Mehr nicht...schon könnt ich ein Level Change usw. programmieren.
WEIL DER SERVER NICHT DAS LEVEL WECHSELN MUSS,WEIL KEIN LEVEL AUF DEM SERVER LÄUFT....UGA,UGA.
Komisch, hab ich jetzt nen denkfehler?
Oder versteht keiner was ich meine*gg*



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