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Re: soft shadows? [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #94945
10/26/06 10:15
10/26/06 10:15
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles Offline
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Damocles  Offline
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Posts: 4,305
Why?

In this view, there is no need for BSP Blocks with static lights either,
since this is the same concept:
Create a static lighning, that is rendered once, and needs not
renderingtime ingame (it just needs to be displayed).

Not every game needs dynamic shadows. If the gamelight / dayligt does not change,
and the lights dont move, there is no need to make the lighning dynamic.
The only problem that will persits, is that the shadows of units and Models will
look different than the shadows by blocks...

Re: soft shadows? [Re: Damocles] #94946
10/26/06 10:30
10/26/06 10:30
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
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Machinery_Frank  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
I also can imagine that dynamic lights and shadows will be the future. Most shaders have only one purpose: creating dynamic lighting. This concept even uses normals, heights and specularity today. The gpu's do all that real-time.

Currently static light maps are a good way to create moody environments. If I would make a game now then I want to have static shadows as well. This ensures to run smoother today.

But the future will probably be real-time. It will even make much things easier: You don't need light map compilition. You can place a light in a real-time editor and you see results instantly.


Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
Re: soft shadows? [Re: Damocles] #94947
10/26/06 11:55
10/26/06 11:55
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
M
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
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Matt_Aufderheide  Offline
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M

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
Quote:

Why? In this view, there is no need for BSP Blocks with static lights either,




Yes thats right.. such things should be removed from the engine.


Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.
Re: soft shadows? [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #94948
10/26/06 12:53
10/26/06 12:53
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles Offline
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Damocles  Offline
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If all shadowing it rendered on the fly, the engine
needs much higher machines, than without it.

This is a hobby/indy engine after all,
so games with it should keep to the more high-fps
techniques.

Re: soft shadows? [Re: Damocles] #94949
10/26/06 14:08
10/26/06 14:08
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 28,024
Frankfurt
jcl Offline

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jcl  Offline

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Posts: 28,024
Frankfurt
Matt is always several light years ahead of us .

While he's right that precalculated lighting will eventually disappear, at the moment - and also for the next couple of years - it will still be used by most major engines. Even Microsoft just began to implement precalculated lighting in DX9 and DX10.

Re: soft shadows? [Re: jcl] #94950
10/26/06 16:00
10/26/06 16:00
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
M
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
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Matt_Aufderheide  Offline
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Posts: 4,131
I dont think i'm too futuristic here. Engines like Doom3 have had this for years. CryEngine 2, Unreal 3, etc will all use dynamic lighting and shadows.

Some precalculation can be useful for such things as Global illumination and so on, but for standard lighitng and shadows there's no substitute for dynamic methods.


Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.
Re: soft shadows? [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #94951
10/26/06 17:22
10/26/06 17:22
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 9,859
F
FBL Offline
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FBL  Offline
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F

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Posts: 9,859
Why not just add dynamic stuff and leave the static things as they are once they are finished?

Re: soft shadows? [Re: jcl] #94952
10/27/06 12:05
10/27/06 12:05
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William Offline
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William  Offline
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Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
Naw, he's not lightyears ahead of us, just sees in FPV(First Person View), also known as "first person shooter view". It's a syndrome full of effects, and other razzle dazzle.

Unfortuantly, it will be a while until all games can switch to a fully dynamic lighting system, mostly due to speed reasons. I'd be doing things a differently if speed was no issue. As well, creating art to properly work with dynamic lighting is alot of work, a fair amount more than art developed in mind for static lightmaps.

Re: soft shadows? [Re: William] #94953
10/27/06 13:22
10/27/06 13:22
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
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Machinery_Frank  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Quote:

...as well, creating art to properly work with dynamic lighting is alot of work, a fair amount more than art developed in mind for static lightmaps.




I can partly agree but also disagree. Arts for dynamic lighting can be even easier to do. You do not have to paint shadows, highlights and faked specularity into your image to make it look more realistic. This makes a real-time shader for you. So sometimes a faster created color map is sufficient.

Did you realize that many users today use quite simple maps for human skins? Just a flood fill with some noise on top? This is not big amount of work. The shader and the normal map will create all the details with real-time lighting.

But you are right when you want to create high poly meshes for the normal map in addition to your low poly mesh. That may take some minutes more


Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
Re: soft shadows? [Re: Machinery_Frank] #94954
10/27/06 17:17
10/27/06 17:17
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Actually, both take a lot of time if you want to get it done right. If only people who use the fill tool would try to spend more than just half an hour on one skin painting, just take the time needed to make a proper skin. You know, add lot's of (necessary) details, and would look for some general painting tutorials, etc. ...

It seems just a handful of people are prepared to spend some time learning this, but it could greatly improve the overall quality of the games shown here on the forums .. I'm not critisizing anyone here, I've experienced myself that learning to digitally paint costs a LOT of time. (Still not done learning.)

Some people seem to think that shaders make a model look good, but infact it's the textures for 90+ % that makes it look good. Shaders can only make it a bit better, or way way worse. (I definately agree that bump mapping or parallax mapping and perhaps even specular mapping improve a model a lot, Frank_g's textures are a good example, however even there you see that it's actually the artwork that's making it great).

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
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