0 registered members (),
954
guests, and 1
spider. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Does chance really exist?
[Re: vartan_s]
#96610
10/31/06 15:32
10/31/06 15:32
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
|
There are choices even if there's no chance, so prediction of anything will be very hard. Quote:
What if I knew all these factors.
Beyond humanly possible, yeah but that kinda makes it too much theoretical. If you knew everything, then you would know how everything works in this universe too.
If you know the seed of the randomness, then because you know it could you still call it random? (I'm talking about knowledge of the 'infinite seed for the randomness, combined with it's 'random' outcome', quite impossible for us to know. And still random if you knew imho.)
Randomness in a computer function isn't random, because it's seed isn't random (or the seed is not random enough, not sure exactly, but I heard it's not really random.), but this has it's advantages too.
Quote:
It will always do the same thing, in the same situation.
Problem is, every situation is unique. Yes, it may be similar, but it can't be the same. So, there you go. The evidence that proves randomness. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
Cheers
|
|
|
Re: Does chance really exist?
[Re: vartan_s]
#96612
10/31/06 16:56
10/31/06 16:56
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
|
a.) you can't know wether or not the reaction would be the same, since we experience only 1 past, present and future. b.) we humans are complex enough to behave in a complex way, I don't think we would react the same to each exact same situation. Quote:
A person will always have the same reaction to the same event
Especially theoretically, this is just an assumption off course, every person has more than one choice to choose from. Fact is, we can only choose one of them, but which one we choose is entirely up to ourselves, not bound to any rule.
Cheers
Cheers
|
|
|
Re: Does chance really exist?
[Re: Damocles]
#96613
10/31/06 20:45
10/31/06 20:45
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
Serious User
|
Serious User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
|
Quote:
These effect get really small in large scale systems, but are very valid for small systems.
So the probabilistics of quantumeffects will not change wheter a star will explode or not,
It is exactly the same answer I gave sometime ago about indeterminism. Reading the Seth LLoyd's book I realized I was partially wrong consequently you also are now partially wrong ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)
It is true that Heisemberg's indeterminism is valid only for atomic system It is also true that "organized and stable " entities are not affected by the indeterminism The orbit of the planets or of our galaxies have nothing to do with quantum theory However large but still chaotic system are heavly affected by the indeterminism
The indeterminism, at atomic level, is a sort of "trigger " whic can make the star explode ( or condensate)
|
|
|
Re: Does chance really exist?
[Re: AlbertoT]
#96614
10/31/06 22:53
10/31/06 22:53
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles
Expert
|
Expert
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
|
The quantumeffects are unprecise and "random", but by the sheer number of the qantums, the "chances" even out. So a star will explode or not given it mass and composition. Quantumeffexts will not change wheter is does that or not. The effect of quantum randomness is just too small to have any impact on this "decision". Quote:
A person will always have the same reaction to the same event
This is a totally different system, as peoples are never! in the same event twice. (Even if we think, that the event is the same, from a physical standpoint it is totally different)
Last edited by Damocles; 10/31/06 22:56.
|
|
|
Re: Does chance really exist?
[Re: Damocles]
#96615
10/31/06 23:06
10/31/06 23:06
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
Serious User
|
Serious User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
|
Quote:
a star will explode or not given it mass and composition.
As far as the the explosion of the star is concerned probably you are right but generally speaking it is a mistake to assume that the quantum phisics does not affect the macro system
|
|
|
Re: Does chance really exist?
[Re: AlbertoT]
#96619
11/01/06 04:52
11/01/06 04:52
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
Matt_Aufderheide
Expert
|
Expert
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
|
Quote:
Simply we dont have all the correct informations about temperature - pressure - humidity etc
that was my point.. chance is purely subjective, and so is certainty. Because it is likely impossible to have ALL information, then to the observer the universe is essentially random--how is he to know otherwise?
|
|
|
|