GameStudio for Mac?

Quote:

The kind of person who buys the new G5 for home use is the same person who buys Bose speakers and drives a BMW Z4 (at least that's the impression I get when I visit their stores).

That may be who they are targeting, but for the most part they get starving artists who are eating ramen in order to save up for software for their Mac (which put them out of their house to begin with...). There was a Forrester Group study a few months back which examined users of various software and hardware and 75% of Macs are being used in business situations...most of them being used in the medical industries (apparently a lot of the firmware for MRI and CAT scan machines was written to interface with Apple only...). 12% are being used in education systems...a large portion of that being from a huge buyout that the federal government did a few years back to prevent Apple from going under...again (they did the same thing in the early 90s). The remainder is relegated to surfing the web and sending emails. I don't remember the exact demographic on it - but it was around 50% of the home users surveyed make less than $50K. Granted Wintel systems had a higher portion in the lower bracket...but when you control 80%+ of the market, you can afford to slum a little.

Quote:

iPhoto, iMovie, iTunes

The secret of their success? They run on Windows.

With the exception of the iPod (and honestly the HP version of the iPod has been recieving better reviews than the Apple iPod), there really hasn't been much that Apple has done in the past 15 years that really has shown any in roads towards the home user.

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Right now for me to bid on educational products it has to be MAC and PC. Which leaves me with Blender (free), Shockwave / Director ($1500), Torque ($500), and VirTools($10,000).

I feel your pain there. Although I have not been dealing with the educational contracts recently - the government made a number of bulk purchases of Apple systems over the years. A lot of them have made it to schools, but there are a lot which have been set up in various other areas as well (imagery analysis is my big gripe right now...). When I make bids on the contract I either have to develop for the systems in place (Apples and PCs...depending on the location) or figure the cost of replacing the unsupported system into the contract...as of yet, I have been doing the later.

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You sell 100 MAC copies and hopefully the 3DGS team will make a tiddy profit.

I am sure you could get alot of Director users to add 3DGS to their tool set if there was a MAC version. Add 500 more 3DGS Mac users from them Director cross over.

Could get all the people who want a OpenGL (and OpenAL, and new network code...) version of 3DGS and would be willing to pay for it to sign a petition and what version they would be willing to buy. If it gets up anywhere near those numbers I would bet Conitec would take another close look at doing the port.

However unlike a lot of software like Silo (good software that had a massive Mac crowd clammering on a daily basis for the port of it) I just don't see it happening...

Quote:

supporting the MAC creative crowd would be a good money maker.

Nah, you want to support Windows and the rest of us greed driven money mongers.

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/15/04 14:10

Not a matter of support for one system or another so much as it is making sure that both sides are presented honestly. Often Mac proponents tout the stability of their systems over Windows, but the reality is that a properly configured and maintained Windows system is no less stable than Mac or Linux. They all have their uses, and some can do some things better than others - however in the realm of general purpose home computing nothing at all comes close to Windows. Attempts to make Linux more user friendly have resulted in a bloated GUI and reduced stability. Apple does not offer the freedom of hardware configurations or software that makes Windows so appealing. However when it comes to video editing, there is a lot (OK - 2

) of Mac only software that makes life a lot easier - but as Adobe indicated with dropping support for Mac in Premiere Pro...Apple is loosing ground in that area.

Anywho - would an OpenGL interface be nice for 3DGS? Sure, I prefer working with OpenGL for rendering elements anyway. However I do not think that a new gravy train of Mac users and potential customers for games made with 3DGS exists. Maybe Blitz is thinking ahead, maybe they are attempting to secure some form of future...or maybe they lost a bet.

Time will tell, but the numbers don't seem to support it in the long run (granted they have been holding strong at the 1-2% market share for some time now

Posted By: A.Russell

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/15/04 16:37

The market for Mac Users should still not be ignored though. Even a 1% share of the market is quite a lot of people. It's sort of like, why does Coca Cola bother selling its products in New Zealand when there are only 3.5 million people there, and the 50 million odd sheep don't drink Coke. Even such a small percentage of the market can still produce a lot of revenue.

Also, some institutions still favor Macs. A lot of educational institutions have been using Macs since computers were first introduced into the education system, and they haven't changed. A lot of art studios favor Macs, probably because of their pretty case design and lovely looking GUI. I still don't know if the there are as many Apple users as there are sheep in New Zealand, but they still shouldn't be ignored. If you could sell 50,000 units of your game to PC users, you might have been able to sell another 1,000 units to Mac users -and that'd buy you a few steak dinners.

Mac is going down the toilet, though. It loses market share every year, even in the US. With any luck they'll disappear altogether and we won't have to worry about them anymore.

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/15/04 23:29

@ Fastlane
oh come on now 'lane... you know you were there too... and when the time came, you pushed everyone outta the way and jumped in the front of the line... so you could be the first to get your 'spanking'...

why am i not surprised to see you at the head of this line too...

@ Myrlyn and A Russell
good and balanced viewpoints, reasonably presented...

of course i was taking a tongue and cheek jab at the WinPC 'union' that seems to always race to volunteer to put down anyone and anything that isn't Windows...

the reality of the matter is that either system is a competent OS for the general user... and neither excels at doing anything that much better than the other...

and of course, i say all this at the risk of having the Win/PC fanboy union have a protest march in front of my office...

but hey, i can take a day of pale, glasses wielding nerds, sipping their lattes and drinking their colas, walking around carrying cute lil signs with emoticons sprinkled all over em...

... religiously stopping every hour or so to face the holy city of Redmond, kneel, submit their chants of adoration to their savior, and reboot their systems, or update their virus checkers... whichever comes first...

(sorryyyy, i just couldn't resist that last one

)

--Mike

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/15/04 23:44

<<steps on soapbox>>

Child molesting spankings aside, in all seriousness, I've had every windows version from 3.1 to xp and am now learning to use 2003. In all my years, I have had a total of one blue screen of death in win3.1 and never have I ever lost any data (keep my os on c:, data on d:, reinstall and life is good). Reinstalling is a hour or two process and thus even that isn't a pain.

I've been using xp for years now and I have never had a crash, never had a virus or trojan horse, and never lost any data; perfectly stable as far as I'm concerned. Am I lucky or unusual? I don't think so. Here's my personal viewpoint:

Windows is like 3DGS in a lot of ways.

When something goes wrong with 3DGS programming, the newbies are quick to blame the engine as "buggy". But 99 percent of the time, it's because of improper understanding of the engine or faulty programming or faulty hardware; nothing to do with the 3DGS engine. Same with windows; if you don't know what you are doing (for example, you use weak passwords or open every attachement you get or set up shared folders improperly or don't patch or etc etc), then you get hacked, cracked, and virus and blame windows for being a "buggy" system. Much like the 3DGS user, the windows user says "Oh it can't be me, it has to be the OS".

Windows is only as secure as the users. And since there are so many more windows users, there are correspondingly greater chances of messing up. So all I know is that in my experience, windows has been a fantastic system.

Now as to macs, my only experience with them lately is that my last university deployed macs in every classroom. Guess what, our of 8 machines, on average, 2 to 3 where always down every week. Do I blame the OS and Mac? Nope, I blame our admin for not setting up securities and user accounts properly and letting the students run amok on our systems. Again, it's the user not the program.

Finally, and this is undeniable, the amount of software and the bredth of scope of that software is much higher on win than mac. Thus, if I was a general user, I would be better served using windows and not macs as I would be guaranteed to find a piece of software. I think the public knows this, I think Conitec knows this, and that's why I think 3DGS won't be ported to Macs any time soon; spending 100% of your time pursuing 1% market share doesn't sound like good business.

<<steps off soapbox>>

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/15/04 23:48

another unsolicited testimonial... he even brought his own soapbox...

hey, you're preaching to the choir dear boy...

try selling that hype to someone who hasn't used and coded for Windows 1.1...

... and to someone who doesn't still have most of the 50 or so odd Chicago cds from actively participating in the beta.

--Mike

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/15/04 23:53

You're welcome.

Posted By: Nardulus

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/15/04 23:53

IMHO 3DGS should consider Director 3D as competition.

Many of us indies that are pitching projects are doing so through advertsing / marketing firms to create Avdertising Games. Ad Agencies are still very much Mac Domains. This translates into what is pitched to a client MAC compatability.

So regardless of the reality of how many users use MAC's, in two areas where 3DGS is a viable tool choice and furtile ground for indies, Education and Advertising Gaming, it comes in as a weaker sister because of the lack of MAC playable.

Educational games is very open for Indie developers. In my region of the world MAC compatibility is required. It is not in all of the world. Since 3DGS is a top indie tool, it would be nice to offer to the 3DGS indie developers an option to be able to bid on the MAC PC Hybrid deals, instead of being forces into bidding to make the run of the mill Shockwave game. As I stated charge $1500 for that privilage, make it worth the work.

I think Wild Tangent is struggling against Shockwave because of the lack of a MAC playable.

When JCL and crew outline new features, I would think they would also be thinking about how to reach new customers, and retain the ones they have. They need to find ways to generate additional revenue.

Doug is an EX MAC developer let him loose for 6 months.

There are only a handful of us that would be interested in a Console port. Even if an indie could make an XBOX version, Microsoft controls product publishing so closley that you would be screwed. It would be a nice little hobby thing I guess, once you drop 40K for XBOX dev system.

The MAC is still an open Market, Apple does not enforce publishing restrictions like the console manufacturers.

Like Myrlyn, I too, have grown very found of OpenGL.

Ken

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/16/04 13:52

One thing to keep in mind with a lot of educational software (software targeting schools more so than software targeting parents at home) is that a good portion of the computers have minimal 3D capabilities. A lot are also running with minimal RAM as well. One of the reasons that Macs are so popular with the schools is that they get new Macs from the various bailouts by the Fed (can't have Apple go under, otherwise Windows will have a very real monopoly...so every few years the government spends a few hundred million dollars on new Apple computers). However when it comes to PCs a lot of them are second hand from other government agencies (DoD, IRS...), so by the time the schools get them the hardware is already 4 or 5 years old. Point being, the best bet for most broad reaching educational software is no 3D or a very efficient software renderer.

A project I did a couple years back for a study group in Texas came acrossed that problem. Their original contractor had problems and one of them was meeting hardware requirements. We ended up using plain old flash animation and actionscript. We were able to run on almost any computer, and the actionscript allowed us to connect through the network to a central PC. The main executable was Windows only, but since the flash clients did not need to be a specific OS - the schools only needed one Windows box for each cluster. Also, with a bit of help from a handful of flash experts - we were able to effectively simulate 3D movement and interaction, collision detection and even some simple physics behavior...all using the action script (which is really quite simple).

Anywho - depending on what you are looking to create support for Mac might be nice...or you might loose a contract altogether. However having a 3D accelerated engine that will run on Macs may not help much if the Windows PCs can't run them to begin with. I think that would be a better path in the long run to pursue as opposed to support for Mac...support for piss poor old hardware.

Lack of either might cause you to loose a contract.

Posted By: A.Russell

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/16/04 17:54

You might find outside America schools are using PCs built in their own country. All the schools I've worked at in Japan use NEC, and all reasonably new as well. Except for in the staff rooms; they usually get the old ones (even saw a few running Windows 3.1). Still, it's the American market that everyone is after.

Selling to schools is a good bet for educational software. The schools themselves will buy a heap of licenses at a time using government money, and will effectivly make parents aware of your software for a few more potential sales.

Generally though, most schools aren't using their computers effectively. At all the schools I've worked at (I worked at quite a few as a dispatch teacher) computer time was time to play solitaire, net games, and play around with graphics programs. So you also have to find a way to market to administrators and teachers who don't have a clue.

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/16/04 22:04

My solution to the school win/mac dilema is to do what I'm currently doing: make a client/server educational piece of software over a "single player" version (ie the dreaded edutainment

).

The way I see it, you can make your server on any box you want (in my case, 3DGS windows ) and then make clients in whatever box you want (win or mac).

I feel this offers maximum flexibility since even if you have all macs in your school (as has been my experience at the uni level), you would only have to buy one win server box and then deploy all your clients on macs.

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/16/04 23:53

in the interim, visit the Blitz site and get some info on BlitzMax...

like i said above, the OSX version has already been released, the Windows version is soon to follow, and the 3D modules for these are slated to follow in the not too distant future as well...

you can look at the demo to get a feel for it and decide whether or not it's for you...

RealBasic... as far as 3D is concerned, a bit of a dissapointment... although some development can be accomplished using the default 3D plugin, any serious stuff would require you writing directly to OpenGL api... and after waiting for so many versions for them to improve the 3D aituation, i stopped licensing the updates.

the cross platform capabilities i think is questionable (using one codebase across multiple platforms), and i would choose wxWindows or one of the more matured apis like wxWin, that afford a wider scope and proven cross platform capabilities.

and if you are looking for a purely 3D cross platform game development environment (Win/OSX/Linux) you might also want to check out the well known Torque site

seriously though, Torque allows true cross platform game development with no porting issues whatsoever (my experience with win and osx only)... the same script and models need only be copied across and run...

a win version player can even log onto a mac version server, or vice versa.

i mean seeing as it has already been stated here that a MAc version is not in the immediate future, if cross platform is a must for you now, these are some options you might want to look into.

--Mike

Posted By: CBuilder2

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 06:00

Mike,

So, it would seem like you could build games today using Blitz3D for Windows with plans to port the code to BlitzMax for Windows/OS X/Linux. It would seem you could reuse all your resources (3D models, levels, pictures, etc.). Does BlitzMax support the same file formats as Blitz3D? Since I have a Windows machine and neither product, I'm wondering if anyone has done this.

CBuilder

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 06:35

@ CBuilder

i don't think that coding in Blitz3D is gonna really be the thing to do, you'll probably wind up having to recode most of it anyway, not what i'd really call super portable...

BlitzMax has a lot of object oriented stuff that aint in Blitz3D... you'd surely want to take advantge of that...

what i would suggest is building your game directly in BlitzMax, now, on the Mac... and when the Windows version comes out, port it over to Windows... which would mean copying over the source, compiling the code and supplying the path to the resources...

i've already done it... it works... same code base, same resources, mac version, pc version, ooooo lala...

can't get much more portable than that...

also, BlitzMax is 2D only right now... so if 3D is your thing, you might wanna wait, or explore some other option...

visit the Blitz site and get the demo...

--Mike

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 07:23

use whichever one you like best...

i've programmed a few things with RealBasic on a Mac... then tried the portability thing... that's why i'm advising you to go with BlitzMax... but it's your decision... and you keep asking as if you have some reluctance about it... so,

use whatever you feel comfortable with... i aint getting any kickbacks on sales from the Blitz people...

if you still need more info, read this OPenGL.ORG (scroll down to Dec 10th), or like i said above, go to the Blitz site... download the demo... try it for yourself...

i've already seen both ( i was part of the BlitzMax beta, but didn't really contribute muchdue to time constraints) and, for the last time

my choice overall would be BlitzMax over RealBasic

or save yourself the trouble and stick with A6 and be happy...

--Mike

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 10:46

@ CBuilder

what!!!!!!!!

if you don't already have a Mac, what are ya going about all this for in the first place

hey, first of all, i don't prefer any of em... i use what works... BlitzMax seemed to fit the specs you outlined far better than RealBasic... now, i've told you already, but i'll repeat it cause it seems as if you missed it...

the whole thing about portablility on anything but a trivial piece of code with RealBasic is questionable... with BlitzMax, it's not... you don't believe me (why should you actually) then go pay the licensing fee and play with it yourself... you'll be right back here, $300 lighter, and a lot wiser...

also, if you plan on waiting for Conitec to ok the OSX version, then i hope you're a patient man... like Doug said, this aint gonna be no overnite wham bang kinda thing... first they gotta ok it, then it's gotta be coded...

merry xmas 2006... or 2007 for that matter... if we're lucky...

--Mike

Posted By: CBuilder2

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 11:53

Red Ocktober,

I never wrote I owned a Mac. I agree with Ken; I like the opportunities a Mac Version of 3DGS presents. I'm going to buy a Mac when I can actually use it for one of my projects. So far, I have not found a "need" for it. I'm not one of those zealots who runs out and buys a Mac to find the many applications he uses are simply not available on the Mac. When 3DGS for OS X comes out, I'll run out and buy one. Until then, it would just be a nice conversation piece!

CBuilder

Posted By: Nardulus

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 13:11

I am with you Rich, I smell indie oppurtunity, how can we get to it.

Heck I would pay $1,500 and I would offer to code a section if Doug wanted some help.

I do not think it is fair for one funder to front the 50K. If I had a client that could do that, would Conitec be willing to split revenue when it sells the MAC verison.

Blitz is interesting, there are guys working on a Cipher Port also. Torque is a good engine but I am just not compatible with it, my prob, not Torques.

I think Doug was saying that if they could get 25K Conitec might meet half way. So the hill is not that big to climb.

Ken

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 23:01

Looks as though you have three potential customers in this thread that are serious. Round up 20 or so more and approach Conitec.

Personally I don't see how they could do the port for $50K, but if they could that would be a steal in terms of development costs (it would effectively be an entirely new engine...everything in 3DGS is heavily rooted in DirectX). I myself would be more interested in what this would mean for the Windows version of 3DGS than what it would for the potential Mac customers. Maintaining 2 seperate code bases would not make much sense so chances are good that certain limitations in the current engine might be skirted in a new build that will run (more or less) on both Windows and OSX.

If Conitec would be willing to offer up more information on what the big picture of the potential port would be, I might be willing to throw my hat (and a few dollars as well

) in behind the development.

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 23:12

As someone who has no desire to port to Mac, I would be concerned as to what this would do to the actual win 3DGS engine development. Seems like this would spread the 3DGS team a bit thin, push back A7 release, etc....

They could hire an outside team to do it I guess, but the est. $50k price tag doesn't seem like enough for that...

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/17/04 23:47

@ CBuilder
ya know, you're not making any sense... first you express interest in a Mac dev tool, then you don't... then you do... then ya don't...

why don't you wait until you make up your mind on what you actually want to do... then i think it would be the appropriate time to engage in pointed questions... until then you are not only wasting your time, but everyone elses who is trying to offer you some assistance...

@ the rest of the interested

make that 4 customers... i would be willing to invest a thousand for startup dev costs... in return for participation in the beta, and at least the first 3 version licenses...

the returns would make such an investment insignificant... while the Mac market is small in comparison to the Win/PC market, anyone who has taken the time to look at the numbers could hardly ignore the sales potential that a 'small fish' would enjoy in a 'small pond'... the Mac market is starving for all sorts of games... an indie would do quite well, as would a tool maker who would sell licenses to them...

but hey... i'm not one who believes in swimming against an overwhelming tide, especially when there are so many here opposed to the idea of a Mac port... in other words, i'm not gonna get up and wave an iMac flag in the face of the tornadic level wind that the Windows fanboys would undoubtedly create as they fanned faster and faster...

for me, there are many other options for cross platform development (ok, there are a few) that i am comfortable with now... so, i see this as a battle that is not worth fighting...

also, this idea has been suggested before... the community response was underwhelming, if not outright negative... the company response was also negative... and understandably so... there are many pressing issues with the current engine, that to me, would take precedence as opposed to diluting resources that could be better served.

... i mean, something like this would take a definite commitment on the part of those involved... if that is not there, i would advise not even wasting the time even embarking on it...

... but if the commitment is there, count me in.

--Mike

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 00:26

Let it go cbuilder.
Any chance Red has to

a) Pick on someone for what they DON'T say
and
b) use the word "fanboy"
he'll jump on.

Don't let it get to you man; he's a broken record just looking for some airtime at your expense.

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 00:35

Follow the words of someone wiser than I:

"There is no try; do or do not" -yoda

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:06

look up CB... your answer is there... your trivial challenge has been met...

it really wasn't much of a challenge...

more like a nerd tugging on superman's cape...

and you see how quickly Fanboylane jumps to try and enlist you in his forces of darkness and ignorance... don't fall for it...

he's a self admitted fanboy, his tales of 'fact' have already been discounted, as i've shown, by some more reputable persons here...

don't let him prospect you and drag you into his miserable world... it's lonely down there, and he needs people to share his world of deluded fantasys... that's why he just had to join in on a back and forth that he had nothing to do with...

misery loves company... don't let him bait you into joining him and destroying an otherwise usefull thread.

--Mike

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:13

Again Cbuilder, let it go man. Trust me on this one....

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:15

he already has (or at least he says he has, who knows)... why don't you let it go...

jeez... here we go again....

mods!!!!!

--Mike

Posted By: CBuilder2

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:15

Quote:

look up CB... your answer is there... your trivial challenge has been met...

it really wasn't much of a challenge...

more like a nerd tugging on superman's cape...

--Mike

Mike,

You resort to childish comments. Yes, that is intelligent and mature.

You cannot even copy and paste text to support your so called points! You are just like the dumb ass Liberals who spout off all sorts of insanity. Yet, when challenged to back up their insane ramblings with facts, they fail miserably.

I intend to leave it here.

CBuilder

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:18

no CB... your the one who started this with your off the cuff comment about my comprehension needing improvement... that was being childish...

you have no demonstrated knowledge, no illustrated accredidation or qualifications to assess my comprehensive abilities... at least not to mine, or anyone elses knowledge here...

so, i took your comment as being an unqualified comment made of of frustration, emotional instability, or just plain childishness...

now you add credence to my conclusion... now you're gonna start to whine when i pointed out, exactly as you 'challenged' me to, clearly how i, or any rational person would come to the conclusion i made above...

that is the epitomy of childishness young man...

now grow up and let it go... like you said you were just a few posts above...

there are people here who want to discuss the topic at hand... this aint about me... or you...

--Mike

Posted By: CBuilder2

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:25

Quote:

no CB... your the one who started this with your off the cuff comment about my comprehension needing being at fault... that was being childish...

now you're gonna whine when i pointed out exactly as you 'challenged' me to, clearly how i, or any rational person would come to such a conclusion...

that is childish young man...

--Mike

Mike,

You clearly twisted what I wrote. I never "whined." You childish comment was not warranted.

I merely challenged you to back up your statements with quotes. There is nothing childish about that at all. I'll give you a hint; hit the cute little button which has the text "Quote" in it. It is not that difficult. However, like a good Liberal, you wish to move away from the original point because you know you have already lost the argument.

I have better things to do. This is it. Enjoy your beloved BlitzMax.

CBuilder

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:27

i quoted you directly... there is no twisting of anything...

look up dear boy... open your eyes and read the direct quotes... just liked you asked me to do...

Quote:

However, like a good Liberal, you wish to move away from the original point because you know you have already lost the argument.

I have better things to do. This is it. Enjoy your beloved BlitzMax.

hahahahahaha.... oh boy could i have a field day with what you continued to say... talk about childishness, "beloved BlitzMax" hahahahahahahaha.... oh, that's really mature...

and you can count how many times i've begged you to get back on topic... are ya blind, or something... just look up for god sake... how do you see that as trying to move away from the original topic... (and he talks about my abilities at comprehension

)

but hey... in the interest of ending this foolishness... i'm gonna conceed (if there is indeed anythingthing to conceed) and let you win...

YOU WIN...

ok, feel better...

can end this foolishness now...

--Mike

Posted By: CBuilder2

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:35

Quote:

i quoted you directly... there is no twisting of anything...

look up dear boy... open your eyes and read the direct quotes... just liked you asked me to do...

--Mike

Mike,

Okay. There was some sort of issue here. When I looked, the posts were not there. It was a refresh issue. If they were there, I would not have pressed you for them.

At any rate, you really rambled on with quotes from several people. It is very simple, how do you support your assertion

Quote:

first you express interest in a Mac dev tool, then you don't... then you do... then ya don't...

Please just focus on what I quoted above.

I only want quotes directly from my posts, in context. None of the following:

Judas hung himself. Jesus said, "Go forth and do likewise."

You cannot grab one sentence from here and one from there. Copy and paste the entire paragraph.

CBuilder

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:49

what!!!

ok, now this is just getting wierd...

i was gonna ask you about your references to me being a LIBERAL (what was that all about), but i chose to ignore that crap (if you knew me you'd realize that there is very little that is liberal about me, but you don't, so how could you come up with that nonesense)...

Quote:

Judas hung himself. Jesus said, "Go forth and do likewise."

now you start to babble off some lunacy about Jesus and Judas...

what's next from you... lines from the Three Stooges TV series!!!

Quote:

I only want quotes directly from my posts, in context.

where do ya think those quotes came from... my god, loooooook uuuupppp
you made these statements... you said em, in the context i presented em...

sorry, i'm not gonna litter up the entire forum any further by completely replicating your statements as quotes...

you should've never questioned my ability at simple comprehension... now yours is at stake...

besides... i said you already won...

YOU WON....

can ya put a lid on it already, YOU"VE WON ALREADY!!!!!

for god's sake spare the forum any more... i refuse to post any more of your quotes... this is past incredulous...

mods.... mods... helpppp!!!!

--Mike

Posted By: CBuilder2

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 01:55

Quote:

what!!!

ok, now this is just getting wierd...

i was gonna ask you about your references to me being a LIBERAL (what was that all about), but i chose to ignore that crap (if you knew me you'd realize that there is very little that is liberal about me, but you don't, so how could you come up with that nonesense)...

now you start to babble off some lunacy about Jesus and Judas...

what's next from you... the Three Stooges!!!

hey, you win...

YOU WIN....

can ya pt a lid on it already, YOU"VE WON!!!!!

--Mike

Mike,

I'll yield as well to anyone who wants to actually discuss ideas for making the 3DGS for the Mac a reality.

CBuilder

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 02:00

THANK GOD!!!

--Mike

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 04:23

And now for something completely different...

Quote:

As someone who has no desire to port to Mac, I would be concerned as to what this would do to the actual win 3DGS engine development. Seems like this would spread the 3DGS team a bit thin, push back A7 release, etc....

They could hire an outside team to do it I guess, but the est. $50k price tag doesn't seem like enough for that...

That is why I was curious what the larger picture would be. Quite likely you would not have a dedicated Windows engine and a dedicated OSX engine - it would be a cross platform engine (and could very well be A7 or A8). Much of the development would not be affected, except of course the vast majority of JCLs work. Physics will operate more or less the same. Formats are not dependant on DirectX or OpenGL (you can even load X files in OpenGL). C-Script would not even have to change at all - since it doesn't run alone, it hooks to the engine. The only changes would be to the core engine...which is what JCL works on, apparently by himself. Granted it would be a lot of changes - but most of them can be made transparent to Windows users (other than clarities sake - you wouldn't even need to change things like the D3D_* commands).

Anywho, it would be interesting to know what a Mac port would really mean to the engine - beyond just operating on OSX.

Posted By: qwerty823

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 04:34

Taking into consideration things JCL has mentioned before, like seperating the engine, renderer, and scripting into seperate pieces, make it more feasable down the road to offer more x-platform possiblities. If the same thing was done for other pieces like audio, then using OpenAL instead of DirectSound would be a possiblity as well. Same with OpenGL as a renderer.

With regards to formats, I know first hand the the code to do this is not quite portable. The reason for it is that the structs have padding in them that is written out to the files, and this means they are doing serialization by simply writing out the struct directly from memory. This wont work on other platforms since things like structure alignment and byte order may be different.

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 04:37

The code to open the files is not portable - but there is nothing in any file format that restricts them to use on a specific platform. You may find that a file format that is currently being used is not optimum for a different platform - but it will still work.

Posted By: qwerty823

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 05:05

Quote:

The code to open the files is not portable - but there is nothing in any file format that restricts them to use on a specific platform. You may find that a file format that is currently being used is not optimum for a different platform - but it will still work.

Its the *code* that would need to get ported. All file formats are platform agnositc, as long as you have code that can read them. The point of portability is that the code used to read in all these files (wmb,wrs,mdl,etc) would have to be re-written to be able to run on other platforms. This is what would take time. Granted with proper coding, they could be written so they would work equally well on any platform, albeit at a small perfomance penalty. Although this would be negated mainly by the time it takes to actually fetch the data from disk.

Posted By: Orange Brat

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 05:11

Quote:

what's next from you... lines from the Three Stooges TV series!!!

Just to save the reputation of the poor Stooges and to lighten this up a bit, they never had a TV series....well in live action form, anyway.

Posted By: Doug

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 06:04

First, lay off the personal attacks. This is a developer forum, not fark.com. If you want to impress people by beating each other up, do it somewhere else. <subject ends at this point, if you have questions send me a PM or email *Don't post it here!*>

While pre-selling a Mac version of the software might sound like a good idea, it enters the whole world of "vaporware". Conitec fought hard against even having a "Forecast" list. It would be very hard to convince us to take money for a software product we haven't even started on...

Quote:

Seems like this would spread the 3DGS team a bit thin ...

It would spread the current team very thin. This goes back to my "limited time and money" point. We would have to hire at least one new person or...

Quote:

They could hire an outside team to do it I guess, but the est. $50k price tag doesn't seem like enough for that...

Maybe. Again, the $50k price tag is just a guess at this point (remember I said *not* to quote me on that

). In house or 3rd party, I'm sure we would end up spending a lot more then $50k. The hope is that it would be enough to get started.

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 07:14

i agree with qwerty's approach on this... abstracting the layers of code would make portability an easier prospect... and could be gradually coded into the engine while the HAL interface for the various platforms is thought out and coded...

... thus allowing for a smooth and uninterrupted transition.

--Mike

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 07:36

Another reason why I wouldn't like to see 3DGS ported is that in my mind, the current 3DGS users would likely be sharing in the cost of development and release; passing on the loses onto us as it where. Given that in everyones mind it would be an uphill battle, I could see the win version bumped up a few (hundred) dollars to make up for the initial period where 3DGS/mac is entering the market. I suppose that is why they would rather do it with outside investors rather than spend their own money on it.

Also, think of it from the indie perspective. If I'm going to spend my time and money on a product, do I want to deploy it on a computer system that has maybe 1% of the audience that windows has? Take Action Bird and Biyu Biyu...after all the time and sweat and money invested in it and for as excellent as those games look, if deployed on a mac it's exposure would be minimal and that would be a shame.

No matter how you cut it, it just doesn't make good business sense for either Conitec or its current and future customers.

For me this falls in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" category. The acknex engine has been around for a decade exclusively on windows and so far so good. While there is a potential for Conitec to be a small fish in a small pond, a small pond just doesn't have that much food and I'd like to think that conitec is hungrier than that.

Quote:

Again, the $50k price tag is just a guess at this point (remember I said *not* to quote me on that ).

Well I did put "est." and darn it, you are just so damn quotable!!!!

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 07:41

Quote:

a small pond just doesn't have that much food

you might wanna stop and take a look at the numbers first, before you jump to that conclusion... about the small pond of Mac users eager to see, and more importantly, to license, not only some of these games... but some of these game dev tools...

you might find that there pond, as small as it may seem in relation to other ponds, may be quite able to feed even the hungriest indie sharks... not to mention some the more established software publishing whales and dolphins...

--Mike

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 07:51

Quote:

All file formats are platform agnositc, as long as you have code that can read them.

Which was the entire point of my post. MED would not have any major changes (other than switching from a DirectX display to an OpenGL display...and most would agree that OpenGL is much easier for toolsets anyway), nor would the MDL format. Same goes for WED and SED. So Wladimir Stolipin and Gustav Nordvall would not really have any change in their work (other than the DirectX to OpenGL switch).

Physics is physics, and by and large does not have any direct dependancies on DirectX or OpenGL. There are some optimizations to be made, but by and large it will be a simple switch (especially when you take into account that there are a lot of apps using ODE and OpenGL already). The map compiler may prove problematic depending on how it is written - but there is a good chance that it could already be compiled as is to run on Linux or OSX (with the exception mainly of GUI aspects). So Marco's workload should be impacted only slightly.

C-Script need not have any changes done at all since it hooks to the engine. Doug can therefore keep plugin along on template scripts.

The engine and the Script compiler, JCL and Volker Kleipa respectively, are the only things which I could foresee needing major rewrites. And if done properly the changes can be totally transparent to the user base (for that matter they could release A7 as an OpenGL based engine).

Quote:

While pre-selling a Mac version of the software might sound like a good idea, it enters the whole world of "vaporware". Conitec fought hard against even having a "Forecast" list. It would be very hard to convince us to take money for a software product we haven't even started on...

That opinion in my mind would make me leary of putting $50K up for development costs. If you are not willing to take $1000 from 50 customers who are interested in a cross platform engine, why would it be any easy to take $50K from a single individual (company or otherwise)? Also in finding 50 willing participants it would seem to me to be a better indicator of the potential market than a single development house.

With 3DGS's apparent user base it would seem like the way to go. As opposed to waiting for a single user that is.

Quote:

Also, think of it from the indie perspective. If I'm going to spend my time and money on a product, do I want to deploy it on a computer system that has maybe 1% of the audience that windows has? Take Action Bird and Biyu Biyu...after all the time and sweat and money invested in it and for as excellent as those games look, if deployed on a mac it's exposure would be minimal and that would be a shame.

From the developers stand point Macs are actually the better market, however from Conitec's position I think it would be a hard sell. Due to the limited market of Macs very few games ever actually make it to the Mac - so you have much less competition...even from AAA titles. Where there might be 500+ adventure games released each year for Windows you might have 10 for Macs - so it is much easier to get the front page exposure than it would be when competing against those 500+ games. That and if you have a cross platform engine you will get to compete against the 500+ Windows only games as well as the 10 or so Mac games.

The bigger question though is not how it pans out for us, the developers, but for Conitec since for them it is not really a matter of how many games will be sold but how many Mac users they will pick up in porting the engine.

Posted By: Red Ocktober

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 07:57

again... good points M...

Quote:

The bigger question though is not how it pans out for us, the developers, but for Conitec since for them it is not really a matter of how many games will be sold but how many Mac users they will pick up in porting the engine.

i have to agree wholeheartedly...

question... taking a recent success story from teh 3dgs world, "BASS FISHING" (sorry to embarrass the author

)... do you think that it would sell well in the Mac universe if a Mac version existed...

and, do you think that there would be a substantial number of developers in that universe eager to try there hand at developing something similar...

the same goes for another titl i saw under development here, an edutainment title by BigBrainz... for kids...

do these sound like projects that a Mac audience would appreciate... and that Mac developers would be wanting to make, to you...

--Mike

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 08:16

Quote:

do you think that it would sell well in the Mac universe if a Mac version existed...

Nah - all Mac users are tree hugging PETA types and they now are looking to liberate fish from the dinner table as well. That and no self respecting sportsman would by a computer from a company who offers it in hot pink.

As you were.
_________________

Back on topic - you might want to look at drumming up support from Mac users (most of whom would not dare to think approaching the forums of a Windows only engine). Again, I think the best way to get support from Conitec would be to demonstate profitability on their part (not they should because it will help you sell more - you already bought the license

). With enough serious interest it would become more likely to happen...and I just don't foresee serious interest being generated by the current crowd (I myself am more interested in what it will do for various aspects of the Windows version due to the type of work I use 3DGS - a Mac version is just a means to an end).

Posted By: qwerty823

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 08:25

Personally, I dont think the mac market is big enough to justify conitec doing the work. Im not saying its not there, just that its not justifiable. Im not here to refute that there is a mac market. I *know* there is one. I have a mac (G3 iBook) and i have torque, and have used it on it.

I think conitec is going the right route, work towards being portable, without going out of their way in doing so. Spliting things so that switching to opengl, and changing other parts can be done without impact (as much) to the rest.

While the toolset (WED,SED,MED) cant quite just be ported by changing to opengl (hello? MFC for the mac? I think we need to rewrite the GUI part, unless its done in something like wxWidgets). I know there are dev enviroments that wrapper common windows libs to make porting easier, but they cost money, and are slower in comparison to a true port.

Personally, I would rather see a renderless server version for linux then i would a mac port any way. Im sure that would require *a lot* less time and effort for them then trying to port the engine, tools, etc over to OSX/Carbon/OpenGL/OpenAL/etc.

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 08:43

As noted in my post regarding the Map compiler...I forgot to mention it when refering to WED, SED, and MED. That and I have been using Qt for GUIs for so long that MFC has become an after thought for me most of the time.

Anywho, rewrites of the editors are one of those things which I would be interested in (needed for the Mac version - might as well build one that will run on both Mac and Windows). Qt is not free - but it will run on Linux, OSX, Windows...and I have not noticed any appreciable difference in speed.

The renderless server is another feature which would be nice...that and getting rid of DirectPlay altogether. Again it is another thing that you might as well make it work on both (maybe include Linux too...) at once.

Posted By: Nardulus

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 09:54

What kind of numbers you are looking for.

I.E. Number of Mac Director Users (at least 50,000), Number of Mac 3D Capable Machines (?), Number of educational games released for the Mac Last year (?), number of Marble Blast users(?), how many MAC's is Marble Blast bundled on (alot, what a great deal for an indie), how many 3DGS users will purcahse a MAC 3DGS version (more than 3), Torque sales based on MAC capability (not sure, seems like there is alot of MAC Torque users active in their forum).

What numbers will help?

As far as resources being diverted to MAC development effecting 3DGS Windows development, I say phish, its part of the landscape of this business. The current changes in 3DGS regarding Direct X has had adverse effects for some users in this community, and others a benefical one. For example the Requirement for DX 9.0C did not sit well with my publisher. I either had to refund my advance or find another engine. I got the crap end of the stick on this decision.

Two things about the MAC port; IMHO

1) The port will be an oppurtunity to clean-up and organize many years of code.
2) New customers will be interested in 3DGS because of its ability to reach a fertile indie MAC market.

Myrlyn has been expressing my thoughts very well, thanks ole man....

Ken

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 10:09

I should have some of the market reports still saved, what numbers are you looking for exactly in order to make your pitch? Number of Mac users, number of Mac users who play games, number of Mac users who want to develop games (probably don't have any hard data on that), number of Mac users who would by 3DGS if it was offered

?

A lot of the data I have is not freely available and has to be obtained through polling and research firms like eTForecasts, Forrester Research Group or eMarketer (I have used eMarketer and Forrester Group - but eTForecasts comes highly recomended from others). Other bits of info can be found on Apple's quarterly reports (great stock to own right now BTW). Here is the Q4 financial results announced by Apple in October 2004:

� Revenue for the quarter was $2.35 billion, up 37 percent from the year-ago quarter
� 106 million profit or $.26 per diluted share
� Apple retail had $376 million in revenue, up 95%
� $18 million profit in retail segment
� For the year, Apple reported net income of $276 million on revenue of $8.28 billion compared to net income of $69 million on revenue of $6.21 billion in 2003.
� 7.8 million visitors to all retail stores in quarter, up from 5.3 million last year
� Apple shipped 836,00 Macintosh units during the quarter
� Apple sold 213,000 PowerBooks, 238,000 iBooks, 156,00 Power Macs and 229,000 iMacs in the quarter.

If you feel like finding a reason to commit suicide you can read through the quarterly reports going back a long time...but they are extremely long and dry reading if you are not intending on investing in them...and I get the summaries for free from my broker.

Other info that might be useful:
� 83% of graphic designers use Macs.
� 77% of corporate design departments use Macs.
� 65% of ad agencies use Macs.
� 26% of U.S. broadcast stations and cable systems use Apple computers as their primary system for editing/production workstations.

According to Apple they have over 25 million users worldwide (note that is according to Apple). They also claim to account for 8-12% of computers used in homes (however most other research not from Apple contradicts this).

Posted By: Doug

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 10:22

Quote:

If you are not willing to take $1000 from 50 customers who are interested in a cross platform engine, why would it be any easy to take $50K from a single individual (company or otherwise)?

I knew somebody would bring this up.

The short answer is: Contract work is very different then selling "vaporware vouchers".

With contract work you are normally dealing with a single client. The client tells you what he/she wants done and you set a price. You enter into an actual contract with this person ("I will do XYZ for the payment of $$$") so, if you've done everything right, there is no legal ambiguity.

In order to sell vaporware you have "create" (read: "make up") a list of features that is so amazing that you can attract "dev_cost/unit_price" number of clients (in your example, 50 people). The collective needs of 50 clients will be much greater then those of one. For example, I think originally we were only talking about porting the engine, not all the development tools! As somebody pointed out, it isn't trivial to port MFC code to other platforms

Add to that the uncertainty of having a "contract" with 50 clients. Do they pay up front? What happens if we only get 20 users? What if 20% of the clients don't like the finished product? Etc.

I'm taking too much time with this post as is, but I hope I've made it clear why I think contract work is much better then selling vaporware.

Again, I must point out that this is my opinion as an employee *not* as a policy maker (see my disclaimer above).

---------

Re-reading your question: Are you talking about 50 people pooling their money to fund a single contract? I'm not sure how that would work without getting into the whole vaporware thing, but if you could somehow convince that many people to fund a single project, then we might be able to do something with that...

Posted By: Doug

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 10:26

Quote:

Torque sales based on MAC capability (not sure, seems like there is alot of MAC Torque users active in their forum).

If you can give me this, it would give me a lot of ammo next time I pitch this idea to JCL.

Quote:

number of Mac users who want to develop games (probably don't have any hard data on that), number of Mac users who would by 3DGS if it was offered ?

Yes, those are the two.

As you say, I haven't found any hard data to back either one of those up.

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 10:38

Quote:

Re-reading your question: Are you talking about 50 people pooling their money to fund a single contract? I'm not sure how that would work without getting into the whole vaporware thing, but if you could somehow convince that many people to fund a single project, then we might be able to do something with that...

This is what I have been refering to (and prodding users towards). As opposed to saying "I want Mac" form a consortium of like minded individuals to pool resources. Those individuals approach Conitec as a single entity (with the necessary funds) and enter into the contract with that group. I have worked in situations similiar to this (on both sides of the issue, I did a database application for a group of libraries in California and I have also entered into various "group buy" situations) and it has always worked out quite well.

I also agree that clearly defined contract work is the best way to go - but one problem that exists with the apparent 3DGS community (I say apparent because it is obvious that a lot is done by people who do not use the forums) is that they tend to not have very deep pockets. While most of them could manage a few hundred or a few thousand dollars - it would seem that the number of people who could afford the $50,000 price tag is pretty small...and those who could afford it and are willing to pay it is even smaller.

Looking at alternative methods to accept work like this similiar to what I stated above would seem like a good business path for Conitec.

Posted By: Nardulus

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 13:34

2002 Report from Scholastic about MAC penatration in Education.

IMHO Educational games is fertile ground for indie developers. 3DGS is one of the top indie tools..........

Quote:

Education Publisher Says Apple Has Largest Installed User Base In Education
by Bryan Chaffin, 4:45 PM EST, November 18th, 2002

Scholastic, the US publishers of the Harry Potter empire, the same company that decided to edit the books for US distribution to be less British, have released a study concerning US education market share in the computer industry. According to the study, Apple is the single largest vendor in the education base in terms of installed user base. Apple holds some 33% of that installed base, beating out Dell's 18% installed user base. The study also points out that the other 66% of the market not covered by Apple is controlled by the Wintel camp as a whole, and that Dell is thrashing Apple in terms of new education sales by some 35% to 21% of purchases. From the study:

Computer Brands: Macintosh is the single most common brand of instructional computer in schools today, but Wintel computers (from all makers combined) constitute more than two-thirds of the installed base. Of Wintel computers, Dell Computer is the most common brand with an estimated 18% of the installed base. Dell is also the leading brand in district plans to purchase instructional computers for the 2002-2003 school year, with a 35% share, beating out Apple's Macintosh brand (21%) for the lead.
Wireless: Almost one-half of the districts surveyed (43%) report current ownership of wireless devices. In addition, one-third of all districts report they will purchase wireless devices this year. As a sign of this growing trend, 9% of districts plan to buy all wireless computers this school year. Of wireless devices, 72.5% are laptops.
According to the methodology published with the results, the study was conducted by interviewing some 450 participants via the telephone. You can read the full report at Scholastic's Web site. The report has additional information on wireless use in schools. Thanks to Observer Scott Wilson for the heads up on the study.

The Mac Observer Spin:
There aren't any real secrets in this study, at least not to many Mac users who have long known that Apple maintained a much larger installed base than current market share reflects. There are many others out there, however, who were not aware of this, and for those people this is a fairly important thing for them to see.

At first glance, it's very tempting to start crowing about Apple having almost twice the installed base as Dell. Don't be too quick to do so, however, as Dell is catching up fast. More importantly, recent trends have suggested that Dell is accelerating its takeover of Apple's education market share. Anti-Mac partisans will also be quick to jump on the idea that Windows itself has the Mac OS (X and Classic) in a 2:1 lead in installed user base. In some ways, those partisans are right to crow about that. Apple is losing ground in education, and that can't be ignored.

The positive side of this is that Apple still has enough market share to make it attractive, and profitable, for software makers to make Mac education titles. That's an important element for stopping market share erosion.

The bottom line is that this report has some very good news for Apple, as well as lots of warning signs.

Posted By: Orange Brat

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/18/04 18:02

Quote:

83% of graphic designers use Macs.
� 77% of corporate design departments use Macs.
� 65% of ad agencies use Macs.

I see designers are still biased to Mac then. This would make sense given most that were trained were done so on them. I personally liked my experience with them..an older model and a top of the line(then) G3 with a horrible single button round mouse(yuck) that we finally got my last semester or two.

Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/23/04 16:38

Having been trained a graphic designer.. it's true that we all used Macs..at least that was a few years ago.. i don't doubt that its still mostly the same now.. although i think PCs have made some inroads, but most graphic designers dont play games anyway. Anymore there's no reason to use a Mac rather than a PC to do design work, seeing as how all the major design software works on PC(it didnt used to be like that). Porting the engine from D3D to OpenGl is a monumental task, and would require a rewrite of the renderer, etc. That would be be a waste of time for most A6 users who could care less about Mac support.. in the meantime would they have time to do the regular updates and new features we all want? i doubt it.

Posted By: Yulor

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 00:02

I *think* this was already said, but i'm just wondering, what are the programming languages for a mac? do they have C/C++/C# ?

Posted By: A.Russell

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 00:49

Don't know about C#, but if you use Code Warrior C++ you can develop for both Win and Mac.

Posted By: Ambassador

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 02:56

C++, Python and the language that Torque uses are Crossplatform ( for Mac also ) and some Basic languages are made for Mac also.

I'm sure there is more languages that Mac supports...

Posted By: Yulor

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 03:04

is the C++ syntax for mac identical to that of windows?

Posted By: qwerty823

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 04:23

C++ syntax is the same accross all platforms (although some vendors add their own "extensions" to their compilers). It's all the classes and libraries that come with the platform that make them different, like MFC.

OSX is *I believe* using something called Objective-C, which is an object-oriented C language, more like C then C++. I'd bet there were ways to use C/C++ to interface these as opposed to using Objective-C.

Posted By: Yulor

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 05:05

so basically, all the c++ language code in 3dgs can be ported over to mac without a problem.. it's just stuff that uses DirectX, and other Windows-OS specific code, that is the problem?

Posted By: WizRealm

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 05:08

Yes. That is why OpenGL is the standard for most games. (Sorry couldn't resist

)

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 09:52

Quote:

it's just stuff that uses DirectX, and other Windows-OS specific code, that is the problem?

Yes, but that can be a lot of stuff.

Quote:

That is why OpenGL is the standard for most games.

It is a standard for most games? What qualifies as most games? With the exception of two games, all of the top 10 games from the past year require DirectX. Most games are written using DirectX - very few games use OpenGL comparatively. If most games used OpenGL, OSX would not have so few games available for it - but it does have very few games available for it.

Anywho, with the exception of a small handful of languages (mostly Microsoft backed languages like C# or VB), you can use most languages on most platforms as long as you avoid any platform specific dependancies. Most the work I was doing on the day job was written on Windows PCs to run on Irix or Windows workstations. Now we are writing on Windows PCs to run on Windows with support from a Linux server to handle certain aspects. C is your best bet (fewest problems when doing ports), followed by C++ in most cases. After that you have fun ones like Pascal. But, even if you use a cross platform language, it is very easy to make the outcome platform dependant (usually because it is easier to link to a library than to add functionality yourself).

Posted By: qwerty823

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 10:24

Sorry Myrlyn68, I think WizRealm was being sarcastic.

As to Yulor's response: Porting the C++ code wouldnt be the issue. Its the heavy dependency on DirectX (where X can be X or Sound or Show or Play). Since i've never seen the code, I couldnt tell you exactly how hard it would be.

Posted By: Nardulus

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 11:04

Quote:

It is a standard for most games? What qualifies as most games? With the exception of two games, all of the top 10 games from the past year require DirectX. Most games are written using DirectX - very few games use OpenGL comparatively. If most games used OpenGL, OSX would not have so few games available for it - but it does have very few games available for it.

OpenGL is used for many games. The number of Direct X and OpenGL games varies depending on who has the technical lead at the time. Many games that use OpenGL rendering use Direct X for audio. Renderware which has been a popular engine choice supports OpenGL and Direct X. Its part of why Renderware is such a popular middleware product.

When we developed FLW fishing for GTI we used NDL Net Immerse the user could select between OpenGL or Direct X. Sometimes the Direct X drivers sucked and the OpenGL drivers worked. Having the ability to allow the customer choose a different render system saved the customer from returning the product and us getting charged with a bunch of returns. We were doing this in 1999, it seems this useful capability would be welcome in 2005 for use Indie developers from 3DGS. Offering customers a choice of render systems before getting a return is important, USA BASS has had over 5000 returns, its is a part a large part of the publishing landscape.

Torque is able to use Direct X or OpenGL, this selectable feature in 3DGS would be highly desirable for ease of porting to different platforms, or Operating Systems.

ORGE has the ability to support the MAC and PC.

It would be cool for 3DGS to support both rendering systems, and free us developers from the Direct X lock that exsits with 3DGS now.

Since I have ported Windows Code to the MAC in the past, it is not that daunting of a task. 3DGS will need to declare a graphics layer that is platform independent, and then you can switch in the needed render layer based on the client developers needs.

I am still good for being one of the first to purchase 3DGS MAC 2007.

Ken

Posted By: Yulor

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/24/04 12:32

I brought this up once a few years ago, if everyone pitches in like 5-50 bucks, we could easily accumulate the required cash to have 3dgs for mac.

Posted By: MaxF

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/25/04 08:02

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With the exception of two games, all of the top 10 games from the past year require DirectX. Most games are written using DirectX - very few games use OpenGL comparatively. If most games used OpenGL, OSX would not have so few games available for it - but it does have very few games available for it.

What about PS2 games the biggest console out there with 70 million users, I can think of many games which are not DirectX.

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/26/04 13:36

Development for the PS2 (or Gamecube...) is a different matter than home computers (which this thread is primarily about). If you want to get into that issue, you could go ahead and toss in cell phones, PDAs and a dozen or so other electronic devices.

When you get to that point though you are no longer dealing with OpenGL or DirectX. There is a lot of hardcoded routines in the consoles - as well as proprietary libraries to run on proprietary hardware - with proprietary interfaces. The Playstation itself does not use OpenGL (at least not the PS One or PS2). Gamecube (as I have had it explained) also does not use OpenGL. None of the current mobiles are using OpenGL - although a few have looked into options like OpenGL ES.

So, I would still be willing to say that DirectX is the most common interface since it is used in PC games and the XBox consoles. The only thing that might come close would be Sony's proprietary interface...but I don't think that will quite do it.

Posted By: Yulor

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/27/04 02:27

For cell phone games, I use the Java SDK, and I am trying to get my hands on BREW, which is a C/C++ Compiler.

edit: Woops didn't mean to press submit..

I'm using DirectX on my computer, so these compilers can run on DirectX, but the programs they generate do not?

Posted By: myrlyn68

Re: GameStudio for Mac? - 12/27/04 15:03

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I'm using DirectX on my computer, so these compilers can run on DirectX, but the programs they generate do not?

DirectX and OpenGL are just sets of libraries which handle a lot of the annoying tasks of connecting to the hardware (or more specifically the drivers for the hardware). In most cases you will have both OpenGL and DirectX on your Wintel machine...even though you might not have realized it.

With things like cell phones you will generally be using CPU only processes (most do not have an accelerated graphics chip...3D or 2D). For those it isn't really a matter of OpenGL or DirectX...there simply is no need to that type of interface yet. It is more akin to hand coding the old DOS games (with a handful of libraries to avoid the really repetative things).

To your specific question - they don't need OpenGL or DirectX to run. Since it is primarily 2D (or simulated 3D) it all gets processed via the CPU. The next generation will likely have an embedded version of DirectX or OpenGL...however even though the software is starting to become available to handle that, the hardware is still a long ways away. In the interim you will probably see more work done using a software renderer like older versions of Java 3D or one of the other fairly light 3D systems.