Gamestudio Extra

I guess some people already learned that one of our competitors has recently followed us in providing a free version, which we already offer since 2007. As we like free versions, we're eager to follow and will give Atari lite-C more features in the next time - no shaders, though. Atari lite-C will get WED and the game templates, and thus will basically have the same functions as the Extra Edition.

I understand that this might annoy users who forked out money for the Extra Edition in the last time. Fortunately there aren't many, as we're mostly selling Commercial and Pro. All people who purchased Extra since September 2009 will get a $50 discounted upgrade to Commercial. Please contact Support for claiming the upgrade. I hope this serves as a sort of compensation.

For technical reasons the new features of Atari lite-C and the discontinuation of the Extra Edition are not effective immediately, but will take some time.

Will it also allow commercial use?

EDIT: The A7 engine is okay (except ODE) but you really have to do something about the editors. They aren't competitive at all anymore.

wow, i have comm but i think this is a great move, reason being, people now have two great free engines to choose from, which also means we'll see alot of more members hopefully making content for 3dgs, who knows where it may push us, am just curious as to what you'll do to announce that to the public, limiting the use of shaders? well... idk, 3dgs can look REAL ugly without shaders, cant even make a basic terrain look good but ok, i guess ppl will always find somthing else you can/should make "free".. good luck in the battle, although now am pretty sure torque will follow soon

hmm, they could add shaders and limit it to pre-defined shaders only.

Yes, soem basic shader stuff like metal, glow etc. make sense.

Hey, this would be very cool for Atari Lite-C users.

Great idea.

LoL

A question: I have won the extra edition, in the last beginner contest - Can I also update this to commercial ?

I think making Extra free is very cool, and a very good move

If you were to consider adding a limited form of shaders, what about full shader support while still withholding PP-effects and Render to Texture? Render to Texture is relied upon so heavily these days anyway (shadowmapping, SSAO, refraction, reflection, deferred shading, to name a few), all it really means is that people with the free version can use normal mapping and toon shaders (yeah, there're more than that, but these have been standard in games for years and years now).

Either way I am stoked it's free, even though I already have Com. I think it's a great move, especially since (as you've mentioned) the vast majority of your sales are from Com and Pro (let alone your profits, as an Extra sale contributes much less than a Com or Pro).

Jibb

Adding some basic pre-defined shaders could move users of the free version to upgrade to Com to get the entire range-just give them a small piece of the cheese

I think that it wouldn´t fit the design of A7. If shaders, than complete, if not, as jcl already stated, than there also shouldn´t be a compromise...

Well I think it's not all that wrong to provide some default materials, which of coruse may use shaders internally.

But I guess this is upo to Conitec to decide, it was just an idea.
I have my Pro version anyway

I'm looking forward to the time when you'll cancel Commercial and I get an upgrade to Pro for 50$

I think this is a good idea, the name "Extra" was bad anyways since you cancelled Standard and the name Extra implies that it's better/more than normal (=Standard), but there was no "normal" (except maybe Lite-C, but that was no "full" Gamestudio). But even without that name issue it's a good idea^^

@Lukas , it was extra edition because it was a little more than standard , which was the cheapest , and most limited , and you had to display an A4/A5 water mark , so there was in fact a difference , not sure with the latest versions though. Well , even though I keep seeing Conitec dig a deeper grave for Gamestudio by the day , I'll say this is the only thing they could do to survive a tiny bit longer. The biggest thing GameStudio has going for it against Unity is the $199 Comercial version which includes shader support and the like , where Unity only has indie and pro , so that's definitely a plus , but if I were Conitec , I would just offer Pro for $199 , and get to working on A8 and create a competitive engine , as Gamestudio is starting to look like windows 98 trying to compete in the Vista/Windows 7 era , it's just not going to cut it.

I think this is a good move. The A7 Extra version has no shaders which are important, and Unity Indie has no shadows which are also important. So its a sort of tie, both Unity Indie and A7 Extra are not able to create realistic scenery, you have to upgrade to the not free version for a professional game.

This step is $199 for Gamestudio and much more for Unity, so it looks as if Gamestudio Commercial is well placed against Unity. They only now need to give WED and MED a more polished look .

I guess i will apply for this 'discount', as i have a copy of extra.

I'll contact support as soon as i can.

good looks isn't enough. usability is more important.

i think WED/MED needs more to be like the Unity Editor...
Controlling global variables directly in the Editor, basic functions that you can add to objects ( like the collision hull + gravitation in unity )..

But for the moment.. that´s a great Step in the correct direction..

@Why_Do_I_Die: What I meant was that the name "Extra" became senseless because A7 doesn't have a Standard version

I'm waiting mostly for the GED version which integrates directly into WED.
And I'd like to have better movement behaviour in the current 3d window. The jerky camera movement and keys getting locked (permanent rotation) REALLY annoy me when trying to fix something in 3D.

Ah right, a default shortcut set, clearly explained in some document would be cool as well. Currently you have to set it up yourself. That's ok, but a default would be nicer.

I think it is a forced move as you must stay competitive....I'm not bashing. If I were to create lite-c(or anything that I invest my time on) you can bet I would be selling it, there would be no "free" version...so a big thank you to JCL and staff.
as far as GS looking horrible, or not that great without shaders...think again, as a matter of fact look a WoW, and turn off the bloom/spec mapping/bump mapping...still looks fantastic, Torchlight doesn't use heavy shading and it looks fantastic...I can make some pretty neat stuff(I think)without the use of shaders.

if the engine is too much designed for the way directx and especially diretc3d acts, then you don't will see a support for other plattform that soon...
the option is to rewrite the core (maybe not the whole one but seperate really rendering from other things) but its a huge work and sometimes is better to start a new engine core than to rewrite a directx based one only to fit for multiplattform problem.

but to rewrite or write a new engine core it takes so much time, that is not realistic if they work now on this game project. so after or during this project maybe they see what could be a lot better in workflow etc. so that they recreate new editors etc. its still easier to make a new editor than an engine. The engine is more or less the same and you can use a lot of code twice for the new editor in the background, only the visual part of the editors must be changed. It's not a few days job but soon or later something must happen, and I think the engine itself is not that bad, tweak a little bit more the tools and people easily get more ideas of what great things they can create with 3dgs.
I used and use several engines ( closed source, propetary and open source) and for me 3dgs is still the best package even if I only use a6 extra and lite-c free. But I've also to admit that I'm very impressed about what I'm able to do with the other engine of the competitor who after only a few hours on the first day I used it. I feel familiar with everything and I have the feeling that I work professionally with it. But for rapid prototyping or rapid game creation I still consider 3dgs the best one, and the option for knowing that we can extend the acknex engine is and will remain hoepfully a great option

oh sorry I have a problem with my browser my answer above was for another topic intended *sorry*

if lite-c were to add at least shaders to the free version i would stop using unity3D altogether.And i think a lot of ppl here would say the same.

I agree totally but respect conitecs decision every company has to face their individual situation unity had their motivation to makes this step as like as conitec (and atari?) had their motivation for making lite-c free. I remember in 2001 or 2002 I only saw what other made with 3dgs,there was none free edition and I had to wait as long as I didn't had the money for my a5 standard(gold edition package of sybex btw) but then I worked and played around for so many years (later with a6 extra) with it. so we can be lucky that there is a powerfull lite-c free and yes the lite-c free is really powerful u can nearly do what you want, use external things like directx and opengl, win api etc.

Guys, Unity Indie CAN use shaders. It just can't use Render-To-Texture in shaders, that's all.

I don't know why people keep thinking it can't use shaders...

And i don't know why people are so mad at buying the pro version to get Render-To-Texture. When i got my A6 Pro, the only reason why i got it was RTT, so where is there difference? Just because A7 com offers RTT now too? Maybe Unity Indie will one day too? How many of you use RTT actually so often for games, especially for games that you are going to finish?

true words captain I only downloaded unity for the shader support but then I saw some other benefits of it and I think to use it more in next time.

Well, will the updates from Lite-C free to com cost the same as the update extra-com at the moment or will all Extra-users get a little benefit for com updates then?

i would imagine for those that didnt pay for their copy, wouldnt benefit from the discount. only for those that paid for extra, will get a discount on an upgrade.

Yeah, I just mean I bought the extra already. But this was some time ago. I just want to know if the upgrade to com will be at least a little bit cheaper for me then for the lite-C Free users

I didn't see anyone in this thread imply that Unity-free can't use shaders. In fact, a lot of people are saying "put some shaders in Extra" because shaders are in Unity-free and not in any free version of A7. RTT is a big deal. I mentioned a bunch of reasons before (I think in this thread; if not, I did in the Tools thread), but I'll emphasize one that almost every 3D game has had for a while now: shadow-mapping.

Jibb

Maybe I am not up to date but I still haven't seen a really reliable and production ready shadow-mapping solution for A7. Is there one? Unity at least has one in Pro.

I don't know -- it has been a long time since I've tried other peoples' shaders, since I really enjoy writing shaders myself (to me A7's shader-related features are one of its biggest strengths).

Shadow mapping is essentially quite simple, but there are many different ways to try and overcome its shortcomings -- mainly that of resolution.

Jibb

Yes, I know. The basics are easy but it's extremely hard to achieve shadows in acceptable quality. Nice smoothing and getting rid of artifacts requires a lot of expertise.

So do you have a usable solution yourself?

I find it a bit funny that this shadow argument always comes up when Gamestudio doesn't even have a solution in its Pro edition. Some shader programmers always claim that you can do it yourself but I haven't seen anything convincing yet.

No, I don't But I haven't tried yet (I haven't reached that stage in my current project, and I haven't had any shader work involving shadowmapping). I'm confident I could have a usable solution, but I'm wary of having a one-size-fits-all shadowmapping setup when the techniques used depend a lot on the situation.

Jibb

EDIT: Btw, in some cases you can see how other people do it just by interacting with their demos. For example, in Unity's "Room of Shadows" demo the sun uses a screen-space blur to soften the shadows (much like in A7's shader workshops), while the omni-lights are content with nothing to cover up the aliasing. It still looks good, but it's not difficult.

If Extra version is going to become free, then wouldn't the Lite-C version and the Lite-C free version become pointless to offer? Then wouldn't that mean the people who purchased the Lite-C version recently deserve a discount too?

If I can have a vote, I'll vote for beam and streak for particle instead shaders...
I mean, even LiteC Free has beam and streak option, but why not in Extra??

liteC = beam & streak - what the heck???

Do someone know when the free version of gamestudio extra will be available?

- Muhsin Kaymak

jcl knows

This news nearly blew the turkey forum. We waiting for it. But have not given a definite release date. Can we take a definite release date?

I think the Unity editor depends a lot on the introspection features of .NET languages. So probably it isn't easy at all to do an Unity-like editor for lite-C and Gamestudio.

Wait.. Since september?

I bought it in February. Does that mean that i can't apply for this discount?

I dont want to start a new thread about this so;

Okay, i know JCL is very busy with the MMO project and the engine itself but i made a blog post when this first announced, and alot of people are waiting for this in Turkish community. It has been quite a while since the announcement.
I suppose that this free version will be available with 7.82 . Anyway i would like to be able to give a proper answer to the members of the Turkish community.

Is there any ETA for this free version and 7.82? A week? a month?

Regards.

*bump*

I imagine i can't, but it would be nice if there was some kind of discount...

What more discount can you get then a free version?

true.. but jcl mentioned discount..... i think

What I am trying to explain is that i bought extra (for its full price) in February. JCL states that the $50 discount to a version upgrade (to comm) only applies to buyers of extra since September.

I still have a copy of my receipt, key, email that was received etc for proof.

It's just that it would be nice to receive a discounted upgrade, since I payed for an item that is now (or will soon be) free.

All i would like is word from jcl stating whether I am, or aren't, applicable for the discount.

Thanks

- Both the discount and the new free version will be available with 7.82, which should be out in the next weeks.

- Extra version owners will be emailed with a discount voucher. But only when they bought or won their version in September or later.

- We're considering some other feature changes, but that's not fully decided yet. Most likely, Pro will get new features for http, ftp, and socket data communication, and Commercial will get bones weights.

Thanks for clearing things up JCL

That's kinda unfair. Pro users gets everything .
At least put the http feature and the bone weights in Commercial.

no, we arent greedy.. bone weights are nice but if you wanna be REALLY generous [doubt it] then BSP is really shiny too

Thanks for clearing that up JCL. What should i do with my extra license then? delete it?

EDIT: Wait.. Doesn't my license entitle me to be able to publish my games? that means it's not entirely worthless. Or will the free version let users legally publish?

the free version of gamestudio extra isn't available yet, is it?


- Muhsin Kaymak

no it's not. it will be available soon with 7.82, but idk how soon or when.

I bought the Extra in 4/12/09 so it looks like I should just wait for the com to be free.

Dennis_W

If you didn't receive the mail until now, you need to write a e-mail to: support 'at' 3dgamestudio 'dot' net

I think I better look in to that because I never get any e mail

Thanks

Dennis_W

Kinda confused here..

Is the A7 version on download page the current free or Extra now? (since it's 7.82)

I installed it as free last I checked (unless Extra is now renamed to Free and that comparison chart is old..).

there is a free lite-c and a free extra. in the extra wed is included

Sorry, I don't understand.


I am asking because I can't publish to EXE like the chart in Extra version says using the 7.82 Free I downloaded from the site (unless Extra isn't a freeware).

How did you try to publish?
From SED? From WED? Did you go to Preferences and to choose the script to publish?

Oh, nevermind. It works.

I didn't choose the script.

Sorry, this question could be annoying, but I don't understand it^^
I'm german and my sense for english is not very good...
Could someone easyly explain to me whitch version is free now (A7 extra or A6 extra???) and who is now able to get a free upgrade...

I just started using my old A6extra version, I didn't use it untill now, cause my knowledge about scripting was to low... now I'm learning...

Whatever...I searched for updates oh this site and found one... so I wanted to download it, but they were asking for a username and pw. I don't got those... so I registered here, but this is not the right registration to get the update I think...

So anyway, I payed 99,95€ for the A6 extra version and can't update it? Esspecially in the manual they say: <<Wenn Sie mit 3D GameStudio arbeiten, besuchen sie regelmäßig http://www.3dgamestudio.de. Sie können sich dort alle paar Wochen Gratis-Updates mit neuen Features herunterladen.Außerdem...>> I will try to translate this....: <<If you work with 3D GameStudio, you should visit http://www.3dgamestudio.de from time to time. There you are able to download free updates with new features every few weeks.Even...>>

I hope you could explain this to me
Greetz
Fussel

A7 extra is free.
Everybody who bought A7 Extra later than September 09 gets a $50 discount when upgrading to Com or Pro.

Nothing to do with A6 here.

oh, ok, but what about updating my A6 version?

You have A6 Extra, but A7 extra is free anyway. for higher versions you have to pay the full price I'm afraid.

Did you buy a Sybex version?
There is no update option as far as I know.

You only need to download the free A7, it is somehow an update to the latest version that you can get. Why updating to A6, when you can get such a much more improved version?

Nochmal in Deutsch:
Auf der Downloadseite ganz oben kannst du die A7 herunterladen, die freie Version entspricht der Extra. Du brauchst doch nicht mehr die A6. die späteren Versionen A6.40 und A6.60 sind eh die Vorläufer der A7.
Und wenn Du Dich eh erst einarbeiten musst, dann arbeite Dich doch gleich in die aktuelle Version, ist viel sinnvoller.

ok, thx

Um Missverständnissen vorzubeugen: Die Gratisversion hat die gleichen Engine-Features wie die Extra, es gibt aber trotzdem noch Unterschiede zur "echten" Extra. Die Unterschiede sind hier gelistet:

http://www.3dgamestudio.de/order7.php

http://www.3dgamestudio.com/order7.php