Discusions on turn based and other game designs

Edit- This thread seemed to naturally expand beyond this first post. So I change the name and opened it up to wider discussions.

Hello
I'm seeking your opinions on the things you like in turn based games. As some may know, I don't play games(odd I know). So my broad exposure is very limited. I will list some Ideas about rule and systems and design, but most of it is adaptation for my childhood learning of the ancient Dungeons and Dragons ed2 rules.

1) movement is limit by amount per turn.
2) actions can be take during moves, that involve arms and hands - i.e. shoot a gun
3) running can increase speed but would kill the ability to make most other actions while running - i.e. shooting a gun while in a full on sprint would be pointless - aim penalty to extreme.
4) difficult actions would kill movement and take the whole turn - i.e. setting up a mobile motor, aiming and firing.
5) fatigue should kill running and walking after prolonged movements. i.e. running 120 meter in full sprint will tire you out.


I know it's just a few and only dealing with movement, but I welcome all design input for all things turn-based. And genre is open as most things can be convert i.e. fantasy to sci-fi

Thank you all
Mal

Not to much rng / random chance, I personally prefer almost no rng/chance whatsoever (good example is AoW3 or lateron when you have enough skills in games like Fallout 2 or the x-com series).

Another one would be multiple actions per turn (e.g. through time units like in old x-com or simplified by x actions in new x-com).

, just curious, why not actually?

Thanks for the feedback. Anyone else have anything to add?


To answer that in full would be huge post and part rant.
They do not engage me or hold my attention long at all. I either haven't found a genre I like or the thing I would like in a game don't exist.
Games are repetitive, boring, and frustrating in the wrong ways. They have a odd unrewarding reward system. They are exercises in enduring repeation with the prize being, having endured to completion.
Take a shooter game, basic simple button repeation. Run, aim , shoot , reload, jump. With two rewards, enduring or competive dominance over other network players.
Borderlands boasted 1000 different gun types. Wow 1000 way to make the trigger button do the exact same thing with varied results.
As you can see I don't love shooters, but I enjoyed the hell out of boredlands 2 for the whole month it held my attention.
Anyways, I'll kill this here, or it will become a huge aimless rant. Lol

Mal

, ahh but I was starting to like this conversation
Anyway I wouldn't sweat about that, this forum isn't that crowded anyway. Besides things like these are interesting cause they can result in new game ideas.

So you like Borderlands 2, and dislike most shooters (most shooters tend to be a bit repetive in gameplay not saying that is a bad point per se). I would say Borderlands is obviously a shooter rpg hybrid game. Have you tried other shooter rpg games like Fallout(3/NV/4) and Deus Ex(1 if you don't mind outdated graphics, 3 is good too)? Perhaps the Stalker series, though personally it couldn't get my attention.
Those games do have alot to offer so they should be less repetive, but sadly can't be coop'ed (except through some wip mods).

, what would be the most importants things you would like to have in a game?

Hi,
I like turn based strategy games. The most indeed. In opposite to Reconnoiter, I like a bit of randomness where infallibility is broken and you need to adapt your strategy to previous results. I liked the focus of Omerta - City of Gangters a lot. It is half turn based and half real time. Cool enviroment and unit upgrades.

Unit movement is a part of the whole. The most important thing is having multiple chances to play with, I think.

Thank you for this feedback and I'll try to play test everyone's example games to get the feel of it all.

I own deus Ex 1, but never play it, I'll give it a new try as I can't recall why it just sits in my steam lib. Probably because I just don't play games. I also own Half-Life 2 , and even put in some real play time. I'll do another hour with it to refresh my mind. As for any network play - I hate it! Coop or pvp. It's often like stepping on to a national football team(US or European football) and trying to play at that level of skill. Your teammates hate you and your opponents hold no respect for you. Granted, if you are a excellent footballer this is thrilling(I assume) but for me - whole sale unenjoyable.

Oh that's a lot - Lets start with puzzle/problems, choice and solution. I love to problem solve. My favorite this is when a friend has a issue or broke item and no money to solve it. We must fix this with what's on hand. I get to use creativity and intelligence with an array of choice to find one solution where many are possible. So let's do a life-like example - You are placed in a room, and must get out. There is only one solution and one perfect item to escape. After an hour you find this binary solution. However this is not rewarding at all. You spent an hour failing Because it is a binary solution, you get no reward for creativity - you only had one choice. As for intelligence - your a dope, took you and hour to stumble on the only solution. OR it take you 3 seconds to escape - Again zero creativity it's a single binary solution. And intelligence is not required, you just grab the simple obvious solution everyone else will see near as quickly if not quicker.( a locked room with 3 tables, one lamp and a key!! Wow).
So times we get a trinary or quandary choice, there are 2 to 3 simple fixed solutions to leaving the room/puzzle. Wow.
Now for another example - You are place in a locked room with 300 unique objects, of these object there is a 1:4 solution possibility and 1:8 combination rate. You can use and combine objects to escape the room. Creativity - There is by far more the one solution and many choices, while one person my choose the dry ice and bubble-gum(random talk), you choose to combine the lamp, cat-food-can and magnet. So you are thinking using logic and choice and creativity, not just randomly testing each object( this is where, you pick up and try each object one by one, till one opens the door, it's repetitive and random and basic.) Intelligence - You get a real reward here, the faster you get out. The smart you use your choices and creativity the better you feel about it.
Now there is the risk of game time bogging down. Not if you keep it rapid, take when I am solving a code problem or fixing someone's code. I might see the answer of hand, bang done. Or I am have a general idea about the fix, try 3 mods on the code rapidly, bam fixed. Maybe I have no idea, grab some manual info, do 10-20 code mods rapidly the whole time stepping and restepping the logic and design in my imagination. Maybe takes some time, but fixed and very rewarding.

Ok If you want to know more, I post a next section on how game design can be solely based on hand twice skill and hand timing, and how that sucks! I'll also talk about how the infinite/multiple life system can many time not be a benefit for a play, but used as a designer game aspect ( respectively dying is design into the game not a helper. Or as I can it fail-and-die till you get it perfect)

This took my slow mind like and hour to write(minus eating and making coffee) so I'm burned on writing it for now. And maybe this is a reflection of how rapidly things become boring and uninteresting to me.

Enjoy
Mal

EDIT - not rechecked for typo's and mistakes

^---

I forget a game example of this topic I wrote.
You're in a end of the world zombie shooter-type, (I can only assume The Last of Us, but I've never played it). Your truck brakes a part, you need to fix it. Games - one or two magical perfect items are placed in the city block and you hunt them down. Wow !
I would - 200 hundred item are placed in the city block around the truck, one or two my be perfect, 30 can be combined to fix the truck, 10 can be combined for a quick fix(Rigging - not sure how the idea translates to other langs) that is only temporary. A solution for the simple, creative, intelligent and lazy.

My game uses hard work by the design to make enjoy and easier work for the player. Common games make both player and designer work easy with the one binary choice, however the designer wins, he hasn't had to work hard at setting this up, but the player can lose, he can go through hell and frustration finding that one perfect item. Or the player is handed, he just walks to the auto-repair shop, these is a odd highlighted perfect part. Now the game is ,can you spot highlighted item. That is a boring kids game, like spot the difference picture they gave us in school.

Mal

, I like randomness, but there is a difference between 10%-25% to miss and missing 5 attacks after each other periodically. But to each his own I quess.

@Malice, from what I have gathered, you find it fun if thinking creative rewards the player (did I understand that right?). In that case, I personally find Deus Ex 1 and Fallout series one of the few games that really do that (enough). You should try out Deus Ex with the next/upcoming version of the GDMX mod http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx (it enriches an already rich game with many new added options for items and improving ai in a fun way etc.).

Sold! If you have identified this than I will for sure give it a go, if only to see how well they do it and where they fail at it. Research !!! It's a shame that you say, many games don't have a focus on these things.

Anyways did you want me to continue my design rant/post, reveling my magnum opus?

Edit - planned topics
1)Hand twitch skills is the game! And require perfect timing in hand and button press.

2)Death as a function not a feature - and learning solving only by dying.

3)Kill as the main goal not a obstacle - and Focus on killing and innovation/ expansion in only killing methods. Many mod weapons, but single goal level mission with binary solutions.

4)Inventory limits expansion and hiding/holding

5)Exceeding human intelligence/ coordination /human common-sense. Hand and timing cause the game player to do things no real person would.

6) Boiling games done to stats and numbers as a primer game focus. Evil that destroys the fun of role-playing!( With understanding of pc game design limits)

7) more but that's enough for this week(next 7 days)

If you want to know about one or all let me know. You can pick a topic or ask a new one.

Mal

Speaking about randomness I wrote a little module for controlling it.
http://www.opserver.de/ubb7/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=443388

^-- Very helpful! And I added it to 2015 round-up thread.
Thanks
Mal

, well I can imagine its hard to create these games. Especially things like amount of features you would have to implement. And balance since you can't predict so easily how players will play the game (a bit also why the mapping in some shooters is so simplified https://husks.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/game-design.jpg ). Still I would prefer freedom/variation in gameplay than perfect balance, but lots of people probably dont.
Maybe Fallout 4 modding community will suprise us.

I personally really want to create games like these, but I am still a better gamer than a developer.

, lol, sure

Lmfao- That's a shame....


I believe this is part of the business. I think many Devs would love to create amazing games, even it takes years. How ever game dev companies want to spit out games and fallow-ups rapid and repeatedly.
Shame is new and independent dev have no ability to achieve a magnum opus, due to staff and money. When they get a job with a company and huge budget and staff, now their forced to use it to spit out a call of duty every 6 months to a year, handicapping any chance of making gems and amazing games they truly want.
At one level it's just make any money and get in foot in the business. At the other level, it's just make as much money as fast as possible at any expense.

Mal

- Ok I keep writing about design, as per this thread. And maybe open other threads to talk about it outside this rant , and what we all feel about design.. i.e. platform what do you like and hate and what would you do differently?

, that is an interesting one I think. Cause many older classics like e.g. Deus Ex which may not have been sold as well as COD's at that moment, but overtime (through e.g. steam or gog) have sold really well. On other hand, companies have many personnel/staff costs so that might explain why they want money so early. Still it seems like normal practice in the industry to fire every worker after a game project has finished & launched. (I am so glad that I am not in such a position)

, well type of games that I like most are, surprise, Deus Ex (fps/rpg hybrids) like games , basically games that give freedom to mess around and try combo's which are not only an illusion of freedom.
What I would do different (or better am trying with my current project) is more open and vertical map design and with rich loot/secrets. At the moment I am trying to make 1 fairly big ghost village/city like map with also things like big churches and very high towers etc. Basically being able to explore every house, walk over the roofs, crouch through windows. Will you go from tower to tower or just walk over the road?
My biggest concern for this is AI though. Perhaps I will let them climb things.

Other genres I like are:

- rts (e.g. C&C 3 KW and e.g. Starcraft, I even made a mod of it link moddb mod ). I would make towers stronger for most rts but let them take population. I love rushing with towers and forward bases etc.

- hack&slash (e.g. Diablo 2 lod). I love it but always hack checkpoints for it, otherwise for me it is too grindy / time consuming. Also I would increase difficulty, decrease item drops but increase chance to get good items (so all in all: less grind, more challenge, progressing faster).

- tower defense. It is just recently that I started like this genre, or better its potential, cause of this game http://store.steampowered.com/app/391250/ . This game is more puzzle-like in it its gameplay (/what tower works on what spot), but still gives freedom to different solutions (except for the very beginning). While the graphics style reminds me a bit of games like Starcraft 1 and older rts's.

There are more genres that I like and have ideas for but it will become a really long list so I will keep it at this.