Enough is Enough

I agree with Loco. Whats needed is more of the BASICS understanding of structure, format, and what does what in its basics, taken from the standpoint that the reader knows zip about shaders.

I would think some sort up build up order to the process.
I know materials themselves are easier then shaders ( only so many variables to set with a basic material and shaders need the understanding of how to work the basic materials. so that would be a good place to start. covering each basic parameter and what they do.

then mabey fixed functions what are they, whats the differnace and how to progress from basic materials to fixed functions. what particular parameters, apsects make up a typical fixed function

then explian the matrix system ( or do this before fixed functions if this understanding is needed for fixed functions)

for shaders contiue with a list of normaly encountered parameters ( beyond whats seen in materials and fixed functions) and how each influance an effect.

I know thats allot to ask for, and writting something/explaining something isn't the same as knowing how to do it. its allot of work to write up soemthing and very time consuming but it would be extrodinatly helpful if the average user could look at an effect/shader and understand what it does and if soemthing needs to be tweaked ( and I see allot of questions and answers on exactly that "adjust the .... effect" "where do I do that?" ) they know where to look ahead of time.

btw steempipe. Im still trying to figure out that automaterials effect at times. why it makes everything in my level go black for those particular textures.

I think it would be excellent. I myself havent even tried to step into the realm of shaders besides trying to apply bump mapping to level geometry(which i still cant get to work)... Preferably fixed function shaders would be excellent but thats only cause i cant use Vertex and pixel shaders

Ot: Will bumpmapping on level geometry work with a nividia geforce4 mx420... I was told fixed function would work on it however ive yet to get anything working tho its probally due to my lack of understanding and not properly following instructions.

I agree with all those in favor of the tutorials.
The more, the better.
Also, when Conitec releases the next update with the shader library, what I would like to see is a reference sheet documented somewhere giving me a breakdown of what the version is and what card(s) it does or does not work with.
It would suck to release a game that featured shaders available only to ATI users or only to geforce users and have to find out the hard way.

Hi,


I would place myself in the 'Lazy' Category in so far as I've bought a couple of books on Shader creation but haven't commited myself to learning it.

The Likes of Steempipe & Matt_Aufderheide Have produced good working examples of shaders which have been a pleasure to run.

But unfortunately none of the resources are 'easily' (and I use this term carefully) modifiable.

Matt coles produced some nice example levels which I believe were influenced by previous work. I can adopt these into my projects no problem.

I believe the tutorial requirement would be to explain the creation & insertion of simple Shaders for Level geometry/ Models / Terrain with a step by step instruction of what each line of code does.


Personally I find reading a book no substitute for seeing an example & understanding how each element of code changes the way a scene looks.

Having said this I am appreciative of any knowledge people share on this subject. It is after all their time & effort so thanks.

Finally this would not be an issue had Conitec provided the 'Library of Shaders' that we were all expecting.


No disrepect to JCL/Doug/Marco et al

But I would have thought that with the number of people clambering for working shader code that they would pull their proverbial fingers out & get it done.


And if it can't be prioritized internally outsource it to someone else e.g commision SMEE2 to be an official add-on

@Loco I suspect without some sort of 'collaboration' you may well end up DIY & if you do good on you...

@Daedelus, If you look at the forecast you'll see that the Shader library is not in development yet so I don't believe it will be in the next official release.

I think the next versions of gamestudio should just come with a bunch of fx files. I would say the most popular shader types should be in there, including my per-pixel lighting shaders, the terrain multitexture shader, Ventilator's overlay shader, Oliver2's water shader, the rest of the one's on the Wiki and some others i cant think of offhand. I dont think JCL and gang should devote their time to making a shader library right now, there are enough already. materials.wdl should be modified to automatically load the fx files, and have the predefined materials.. so the user can just choose the shader material like any other right off the bat with no extra work setting it up. The most common shaders requested are lighting/normalmapping, toon shaders, water, and terrain, and these are all covered pretty well.

Matt,

I appreciate what your saying but you've already suffered the pain of shaders & come out of the other side.


If enough people want shader integration in the toolset then priority should be given to that area.

Also you are suggesting with some justification that the required resources are already available. If that is the case how much work would it involve for conitec to integrate these examples into a working library ??

Not that much... so by the fact this hasn't been done there is obviously a lot more work required to achieve these goal.

So Quid Pro Quo doesn't that mean you r wrong ?

Hi,

this works for me:

When i have enough, spent you time with another work, texturing, scripting, or just reading a book. Forgot all you know about shaders or all what you think to know about shaders. Then try it again very simple. It works.

I wanted to give up too, and know what you mean. Just pause and try it again.

Maybe my little tuts helps: Shaders

well its certainly possible Conitec doesn't want to integrate community developed shaders into their product, for a variety of reasons-- one being that shaders are of varying quality..my shaders for instance, are probably not highly optimized, and can only run on high-end hardware. Also, there is the question of propety, would Conitec want to pay poeple to include their shaders, or would developers let them be included for free? Perhaps Conitec figures that for now they should let the community handle it, and concentrate on other things.

You'll have to forgive me for digging out my soapbox for the occasion, but it has to be said....

Quite frankly, a post like this pisses me off. Many people here have been VERY kind to freely give away very good shaders in the first place. There is a shader for almost any general need out there in most cases. Because you don't understand them yourself is the last reason you should turn and point a finger at those who have been spending their time and effort to develop these shaders for the community and help others understand how to use them. I've submitted quite a few shaders myself, and it sure doesn't show any appreciation when someone steps up and begins flaming us for not teaching the community how to do shader programming when we've been sharing shaders, helping others get them working as we have time, and even writing a few tutorials. I've been beginning to prepare a free shader package designed to work among all tested GPUs; perhaps I should just forget it if this is the thanks we get for helping, evidently it isn't what people are wanting- so why bother?

Nothing that explains how to use shaders? how about these? ALL of these are entry-level tutorials
http://www.coniserver.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=476539&an=0&page=0#476539
http://www.coniserver.net/wiki/wikisecure/index.php/SimplePixelShaderTutorial
http://www.coniserver.net/wiki/wikisecure/index.php/SimpleFixedFunctionTutorial
http://www.coniserver.net/wiki/wikisecure/index.php/AdvancedFixedFunctionTutorial

Among many many others.

Don't tell me we haven't tried to help you learn.

Yes, after all there is a shader editor / library planed. Making a good one needs some time and investigation, and all conitec members are working hard on there stuff. For example I don't think you would like Marco to drop developing the map-compiler or JCL to stop working on the engine, do you? ...and I think you also don't want to have a beta product with many bugs to be released.

Developing such things need time, but that doesn't mean it is not worked on them!

I think people are taking this thread the wrong way.

I don't think those that know shaders and have contributed allot of work to the community know just how appreciated they are for thier efforts.

being said though, since I don't understand shaders, I havn't went and bought the books on shaders ( nor can afford to), and I don't want to have to play 50k questions and pester people just to do some minor tweaks ( like change how a light source effects something) to amke a shader fit my projects, I don't think I can justify the right to useing them.

Using a preset library of effects are also out of the question for the same reasons above.

Hi,

This was most certainly not to say there haven't been some great shader contributions made to the community. I definately wasn't trying to say that. I was refering to step-by-step tutorials that introduce people in to shader script.

Let's take a simple shader that that was contributed for example.

Code:

---

 

material mtl_vegetation
{
	event=mtl_vegetation_init;
	effect=
	"
	texture entSkin1;
	dword mtlSkill1;

	technique vegetation
	{
		pass p0
		{
			Texture[0]=<entSkin1>;
			ZWriteEnable=True;
			AlphaBlendEnable=False;
			AlphaTestEnable=True;
			AlphaRef=<mtlSkill1>;
			AlphaFunc=Greater;
			CullMode=CCW;
			
			ColorArg1[0]=Texture;
			ColorOp[0]=Modulate2X;
			ColorArg2[0]=Diffuse;
		}
	}
	technique fallback{pass p0{}}
	";
}
 

---

We have the decalrations:

texture entSkin1;

What does texture mean and how do I use multiple skins?


dword mtlSkill1;

What does dword mean and how do I define multiple skills?


technique vegetation


What is a technique and how do I add multiple techniques into a shader?

pass p0

What is a pass and how do I do multiple passes?

Texture[0]=<entSkin1>;
ZWriteEnable=True;
AlphaBlendEnable=False;
AlphaTestEnable=True;
AlphaRef=<mtlSkill1>;
AlphaFunc=Greater;
CullMode=CCW;

What do all these shader commands mean and what are they doing in this code?

ColorArg1[0]=Texture;
ColorOp[0]=Modulate2X;
ColorArg2[0]=Diffuse;

What do these commands mean? What is Modulate2X and what is difusse and how do they effect the shader?

technique fallback{pass p0{}}

What is this line of code doing? Is this similar to a while(1)-wait(1) loop or is this a fallback of somekind for cards that can't handle this shader?

This is more the type of tutorials that are missing.

What is the structure for lets say a vertex shader output?

Code:

---

 
struct VS_OUTPUT
{
// declarations
};

VS_OUTPUT main_vs(parameters passed defined in declarations)
{
VS_OUTPUT Out ; // define the ouput
// Change output
return Out; // return output
}

---

Why exactly are we defining things like:

float4x4 matWorldViewProj;
float4x4 matWorld;
float4x4 matViewInv;

float3x3 WldToTan;

float4 vecViewPos;
float4 vecViewDir;

float4 vecLight;
float4 vecLightPos[8];
float4 vecLightColor[8];

and how to they reference to the objects in the 3DGS world? Such as the camera, the lights, etc. What is a matrix and how does it work?
What do the different matrices affect?

The world matrix - all objects in world space are transformed by this matrix
The view matrix - refers to the position of the camera
The projection matrix - defines how Direct3D projects the 3D scene onto the 2D surface


A tutorial let's say of making a vertex shader from scratch that does some small shader objective. How to define the variables, what do they mean. How to get the input, then change it, then output it and make it work with 3DGS.

I am sorry if I sounded like there has been no shader contributions, because that is not true, but step-by-step shaders covering differents shader types, vs, ps, hlsl, etc and what the commands inside these shaders actually mean and the structure of the shader script itself is what I was refering to.

Possibly it is just too complicated for anyone to explain, but I doubt it. I can look it the script and get a general idea of what is going on, but it would be nice to have some detailed tutorials on the subject. Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone too terribly.

And if there is a tutorial covering something like this for 3DGS, then I really put my foot in my mouth.

Loco

there are plenty of tutorials on the interweb, just search google...

Ok, never mind guys.

Sorry I brought it up,
Loco

Don't be sorry, Loco - I agree... while there is information that has been shared, so far I've found all of it very confusing. Maybe some of the experts here would be willing to recommend some of these tutorials on the interweb that might be helpful to someone very new to (and confused about) Shaders, as they apply to working with A6.

Cameras and sliders I can do - PM me, and maybe I can help

Shaders are confusing and hard to learn at first.
The best way to learn is to mess around with someone else's shader.

Hi,

I have by no means given up. I just don't want this to become a topic with people bickering back and forth, that is useless.

Grimber, Bopete or I should be able to help with any camera, slider code, multiple views, or anything else necessary to make the program look good and functionable with C-Script. I can also help with making the documentation look nice if that would be of help, or making .pdf's whatever. Fuxerz can make any special models that you might need with the skins necessary to show the shaders at work. I have quite a few people who would like help with any textures needed also.

I am going to see grandma this weekend, but as soon as I get back Sunday night, I am on this like white on rice.

Thanks,
Loco

For some things, just messing around can be fine - but for something technically complex, messing around without some sort of guidance may not be very effective or efficient. I've already spent enough time scratching my head, and hope to try a different approach ;-)

I'll help if you want me to... I can do artwork.

Locoweed is absolutely correct.

What is missing from the shader forum is quite obvious.
Their is no tutorial, that defines exactly how to start working with shaders from the ground up. Their are a few attempts at entry level explanations, but nothing that I would consider a great "help."

And for Rhuarc, who's opposition to this thread seems to be the most vibrant, I can garuntee you (without even reading your examples) that none of those tutorials is what Loco is talking about. Take the tutorial on the wiki, one line says "All you need to do is multiply R1 * R2 and LOOK what happens." Well that begs a few questions, what is stored in r1 and r2 that requires multiplication, not addition? Those are the types of questions that should be answered in a quality tutorial, not just, that this is what you have to do, but why you are doing it that way in the first place. That is how you LEARN a topic.
Secondly, I'm taking it that no one asked you specifically to write the tutorial, so stop "being offended" by a post no one directed specifically at you, keep your mouth shut, and maybe some more knowledgable dedicated-to-helping-others forum members will make this tutorial, your flaming of locoweed is just a waste of time.

(I don't mean any of that personally Dan, but it needs to be said)

This is silly, there are many basic tutorials on the net, and there is the direct3d documentation. I just dont see why we need some super basic tutorial for shaders. Do you want to be shown how to tie your shoes? If you dont have the energy to learn a little on your own, what good is it going to do.. writing shaders is not for non-programmers(or at least knowlegeable amateurs), so you should learn something about programming before trying to learn shader programming. Why do you need someone to write a basic tutorial, when there are already plenty of these on the web? just do a search on google! sheesh, how do you think other poeple have learned these things?

I would suggest that, in this thread at least, everyone just ignore Matt and anyone else that chooses only to criticize. For those that wish to get involved and use this thread to help or be helped, then let's carry on and be productive

I'm not 'chosing to critize', the point is this: there are plenty of tutorials on this subject so why bother? Make some effort on your own. This whole thread was like saying, you shader poepl are lazy and have a duty to write tutorials for us newbs. come on.

I just dont see what's so hard about searching for basic info on the the web.. Wolfgang Engle has some very good shader tutorials up, better than any you would find here.

@Matt, if anyone in here would like to do that, they are perfectly entitled to do so - and I'm sure that it would help many users. But please do not provoke argument, and go off topic.

@Everyone, please keep this thread on topic. If it goes too far off, I'm going to have to close it (in which case Loco or anyone else can start a fresh new thread).

We should close this thread now! I don't think that Matt, Steempipe, Ello, Alexander Esslinger, Oliver, Rhuarc, Rigoletto, Ventilator, Drew and so on didn't contributed and helped less in shaders than others did in other subjects as modelling and coding.

I continuesly had a look at the discussions in the shader forum right from its beginning. There already IS a nice collection of shaders. IMO it would be nice to see them placed and updated in the wiki, that would make the things less confusing. And several questions might be repeated less often.

Loco's complaints happened right in the time when Rigoletto built up his first tutorials. Which are great start, that should be supported with sequels, additions and hints - in the wiki!

What your saying is right, but your still missing the point, you need to drop the subject.


Locoweed, no one is willing to help you it seems, you should make your own tutorial.

Hello,

First, I will say that there is definately a series 3DGS specific tutorials on shaders in the works. Whether they are really necessary or not, definately could be debated for a while. It is my opinion that they are, or I wouldn't have brought it up, but that is just my opinion from trying to learn about shaders on this forum and too much Google'ing, nothing more. For me it is simply that 3DGS has shaders, so there should be some good tutorials here on shaders. 3DGS uses DirectX for multiplayer, so there should be a multiplayer tutorial that bridges DirectPlay with with 3DGS. That's is just the way I feel about it. It really isn't anything personal. It just has more to do with the ease of learning how to implement the features of 3DGS that access external components like DirectX or Shaders through the 3DGS forums. I sincerely hope no one objects to that. Kudos to those who grasp multiplayer, shaders, or something like physics in day, but I just aint that smart. I need as much help as I can get, especially from my friends here, and why not here? I am serious, why shouldn't we have a good tutorial on shaders here? I personally don't understand why we shouldn't. It totally baffles me why anyone would have resistance to a 3DGS specific tutorial on shaders. I just don't get it. I really don't understand it and it bothers me alot, probably too much.

On the otherhand, many bring up a good point though, that tutorials for shaders by people like Wolfgang Engel and others cover the basics shader programming quite well. I would highly recommend Wolfgang Engel for the theory and implemententaion shader code that is accessable over the internet for free. Read up.

Sincerely,
Loco

I dont care if you make tutorials or not.. the point has been that you made it sound like no one was helping you.. 'enough is enough' and saying we are all apathetic. Nobody grasps shaders in a 'day'. it takes a lot of work, but the fact you can take one of the sahders already availble and plug it into your app. do you need a tutorial for this?

Hi Matt,

Yes, you are correct. I was definately wrong in how I started this topic. That was my mistake. I agree. I apologize.

But that's as far as my apology goes,

Loco

I don't think there is anything wrong with writting a tutorial on the subject, from the standpoint of a beginner. An introductory document that assumes NOTHING on the writters part.

What i have encounted is every referance pointed to for a beginner to start REALY ISN'T set up/written for a REAL beginner to understand the basics before jumping in feet first with allot of examples that inodate the reader ( closest I found was the HLSL PDF on teh WIKI that was of any beginner help).

Most everyting else realy approachs the user has to already know X ammount. ( don;t read them based on what is contained in the doc, but what is NOT when seen from teh eyes of someone with NO knowlage of even the who, what , where ,when why of shaders)

Shaders may be an very advanced topic, but it doesn't have to be written/explained ONLY in terms to 'advanced' users comprehension.

How to work HLSL WITH 3DGS may be in the manual, but as we all know the manual isn;t usualy clear to the person new to a particular topic and users then struggle with it via trail and error untill the perverbial lightbulb 'DING' clicks on "AH-HA, THAT's how it works!"

Reminds me of ent_move and my struggle understanding how to move an entity using just that instruction.

ONLY place it was documented/explained was the manual. Not in ANY tutorial ( and I seriously digged across the internet for tutorials, docs anything.) Everytime I asked for a brief explination of using it. A Community Stonewall as well. It was like either a closely guarded secret or Knowone could realy explain it. After couple of months I puzzeled it out myself .

I found as I went this was not an uncommon occurance. Much is DOCUMENTED, but not EXPLAINED.

Shaders/marerials seem to be in the same boat. There is much in the way of documentation, what is wrong is EXPLINATION or the lack of actualy.

Explination is a BUILDING process.

example: you can't properly explain how to use ent_move without first explaining what a vector is and he differnt sort of vectors the we uses. that falls back to explaining what a varible is.
You have to cover 'scope' and 'relative' in relationship to an entity.
you have to cover vector math.

You have to cover eular angles, what they are and are not. how are angles handled in 3DGS game levels and how to do vector angle math.

So the same with shaders/materials. need to go BACK a BASIC level of CORE elements. The fundimental basic parts. Yes plenty of documents on HLSL, what is missing is the EXPLINATION of the 3DGS end of the process. Just can't add an .fx file in your work folder, assign it to an entity like you do with an action and away you go. Not all shaders are even IN fx files, its all scripted.

And that is where the real problem is. We don't need a tutorial/workshop at THIS time on HOW to make particular shaders as stated there are many such documents that float around that just need to be found and transposed to DX9 or some such needs. I don;t think there is anything that CAN'T be taught to someone that has no idea from the beginning. It's all in the matter of approach.


Now, looking at the documents users HAVE provided for help ( forum threads, WIKI posts) by reading them they do give some explinations, but from an introductory level invividual they are all a bit over the top.

THis MAY be allot of work, especialy to those that understand the workings already ( easier to understand then explain in SIMPLE terms) and I also understand some people have the ability to learn something but don't naturaly have the ability to teach it to others.

But such a compiled explination of the workings would:

1. realy cut down on the Q&A of the basics
2. get more people up to a competent UNDERSTANDING level providing a much larger spring board of members for shader workings/projects in the community that can provide better feedback, testing and improvments.

I'm not stating its ANYONEs responsability to write such a document, but it would be far eaiser process if a few experianced users took a couple inexperianced shader/material users that can write tuts from an intro level point of view and guided them through the process of learning the subject and provided feedback on proofreading tuts as they get written.

The more the number experianced/knowlagable users provide input the more the outcome can be in such tutorials. They don;t have to WRITE the tutorial(s) per say but guide a few others lerning from the ground up to a compentent level and provide feedback though the process. The tuts themselves will sort of build themselves from this dialog/learning process.


Give you an example of what I mean:

Lets start from the beginning here. What is a shader.

Myself: I break them down ( from what i know so far) in 3 catagories

Material.
Fixed Function.
Shader.

Shaders get broken down into 2 basic parts

Vertex.
Pixel.

Now as How "i" understand them in simple form:

Material: an advanced way of controling how lights interact with a surface.

We have the basic understanding of using normal 3DGS settigns of like UNLIT, Albedo, Ambient. A material gives you more advanced control on how light interacts with your textures/entitis by allowing you to adjust the ammount of Red Green and Blue light colors either is reflected (albedo), flattened (diffuse), self iluminates ( ambient ) or 'whites out' ( specular/flare).

For example, if you wanted to make something look more metalic you would want to have some reflectivness brighter colors, and diffusion of darker colors ( makes the dark areas look flat) and some specular of whiteish level colors

A fixed function: I don't know the differnace to this but obviously there is else others wouldn;t recomend certain effects to be done by fixed function over a shader equivalent.

Shader: A process where, prior to the engine drawing/updating the video display each frame (render), you grab a specific object, area, chunk, piece of the 3D world represented in a game level. Transpose or convert it's data to a 2 dimensional mapping, then through a process( or multiple processes) manipulate that data such as change colors, move possition, alter how light effects it ( even more than a material) overlay a texture... and the list goes on.
That manipulated data is then transfered back into the 3D world enviroment, where the engine then does its process to draw the 3D world data onto the video screen.

Vertex shader: As we know objects are defined in a 3D world by a set of points ( vertexs) that are set in referance to a single point in space ( the origin point). an objects surface is defined by 3 vertex points connected. A vertex shader allows us to manipulate the data(texture surface) between those 3 points in space by referancing those 3 vertexs.

Pixel shader: via the 3 vertex points that define a surface, we can actualy referance an individual pixels x/y/z location between those 3 vertexs points. which allows you to then manipulate the pixels themselves.




Now as a feedback you can correct me how I understand these things.
Keep in mind , say that I'm a new 3DGS user, my knowlage of computers is limited ( and you don;t know what I do and do not know). SO avoid teh technical at first. If you ahve to use a technical term ( say like, PIPELINE) give a very brief explination of what that means/is.

The process then contiunes: So I start with the simplest of the above... materials:

A basic matieral is defined via script much like a function, action, panel etc.

You have a data TYPE: MATERIAL
You give it a name: user defined name that follows c-script name definition restrictions.
and it has a structure: { }

example:

MATERIAL mat_dothis
{

}

some of the basic material instructions you can use in this structure:

ambient_red
ambient_green
ambient_blue

control of how much ambience ( self lit) a surface/object is. values are adjustable range from 0-255 for each of the 3 colors

diffuse_red
diffuse_green
diffuse_blue

controls how much light is NOT reflected by a surface/object. values range 0-255 for each color

emissive_red
emissive_green
emissive_blue

color emmited by the material itself and is added to the surface/objects lighting. ranges of 0-255

specular_red
specular_green
specular_blue

the influace of dynamic lights on the surface/object to create highlights (flares)

power

sharpenss of the specular highlights... range 0-10 power set to 0 turns off specular highlights

albedo

overall influance of SUNLIGHT on the surfance/object range 0-100. 0 not effected by sunlight, 100 sunlight fully reflected off surface, ignores shadowmaps.

so a possible material would look liek this:

material mat_grimber
{
specular_red = 50;
specular_green = 20;
specular_blue = 60;
power = 3;
diffuse_red = 20;
diffuse_green = 15;
diffuse_blue = 40;
}

experianced users comments, pointers, suggestions, additions, corrections


and onward it would go. as it builds further on the tutorial would build itself.

I have been trying to learn HLSL for a few weeks now - and think I have started getting the hang of it. I recommend the book "The CG Tutorial" by NVIDIA - although it did assume that you knew a few things (at least, thats the impression I got), it does help you grasp the concepts....

Hiya.

Well, Grimbar, THAT is something I would love to see! It seems exactly like what a lot of artists/3DGS'ers are looking for. The 'tutorials' I've seen about how to use a shader in 3dgs seem to use some techical term to describe another technical term. So "The fuznickle vec0 is simply the reverse of the blinstaknub mat3's RenderVisualVectinswik". ???

It's all fine and well to say "Just use this code...", but when those who don't have a clue go to use it, it doesn't work because the user doesn't know what/how to "fill in the holes" (re: "material = <yourpic.bmp>" is great...but where do I put that .bmp? Does it have to be in one particuar place? Does it have to be in the same dir folder as the .fx? Can it be referenced like ".../mytextures2/yourpic.bmp"? Will any .bmp work, or does it have to be 16-bit? 24-bit? 32-bit? No bigger than 512x512? etc...etc..etc).

Anyway, I hope some folks with the knowledge, time and compassion to help "us shader noobs" step up to the plate. I think one of the main reasons we don't see any "wickkked-kewl" screen shots 'made with 3dGS' is because only about 4 people actually know how to implement a shader into a 3dGS project (ok, so I'm exaggurating about the number of people, it's probably twice that... ). The more artists who know how to stick a .fx file on their kick-ass monster/player/item, the more "wickkked-kewl" screen shots we'll start to see...

Well :
Normal mapping, specular , water, glow ,refraction
HDR, bloom , mtion blurr , colored vision (night googles,infra red etc ...)
are the standard main ones you need !

No need to learn shader , with theses standard you can already make great games,
and AAA games uses theses.
With normal map /specular you'll have a next gen look :
illusion of very detailled models !

Some 3D engines give you all theses shaders ready to use and apply to your models !

Wait 3DGS to evolve in shaders, or if you can't wait one more year ,
buy another 3D engine now ?

There are very few engines which have an out of the box SSS shader. Mostly engines require you to write more complex shaders yourself.

I agree with you totally. You can make almost everything with Lite-C. You can even program an Open-GL renderer if you like to.

The small but significant difference is just the little word "make". You have to do all that on your own. This will turn you from a game-developer into a tool or shader developer. If you like that task and you like your hobby - then everything is perfect - if you want to make a game - then it looks a bit different

Anyways this is mute as there is a shader tool & shader pack coming re: forecast

I just don't what these to be canceled.

Yes. That is true. Looking forward to it.

I don't mean to sound annoying and I actually do agree with you for the most part, but you're talking as if the lack of more editors is what's keeping you back from making games. I honestly don't think that's fair, especially since Lite-C, at least from a programming point of view, gives you immense freedom of what you'd like to create. Off course it doesn't create those things for you.. but that's your job as programmer.

A game developer is a tool developer too, but simply does a lot more than just that.

When I'm in the prototype stage of making my game, there are a ton of things I need to keep track of; values, angles, positions and so on .. hence I had to make some tool to show all that on screen while debugging my codes. You could call that a tool, but it's absolutely essential for creating my games, without it I would spend ages while doing a lot of guesswork and it just wouldn't work fast enough.

My point? Don't make tools you don't need for making your games, but when you lack tools you need, it's really not a bad idea to invest time in them.

As for shaders, eventhough I do know my way with shaders a bit, I definitely agree that a shader editor would be very awesome, but that's mainly because of the plug-and-play nature of shader code. There's no point in making a shader editor myself, because applying them to a model in the engine is not the problem. The actual solution would be to simply learn how to create shaders and I'm busy doing that, but a shader editor would speed things up.

Off course, a shader editor still doesn't provide you with the possibility to make extremely customized shader stuff, so at one point you'd have to learn the shader language and how things work anyways.

I could go on like this, but from a 'lone-wolf' perspective, it's simply very difficult to make games on your own.

Cheers

The 'probability' you are talking about isn't bigger or smaller when you were to use C-script for making your games, Lite-C or any other tool...

Good games aren't defined just by the latest 'next' gen graphics, in fact, as some Xbox Live Arcade titles (that got great publisher deals) show you can even get away with just vector programmer art, as long as the gameplay is acceptable. The latter will always require reasonably high programming skills regardless of the engine or programming language. You can't get away with templates...

Cheers

Do you even try to read threads before you comment all my posts?

This thread is about shader programming and not about what you need to program good game-play. And it is located at the shader-forum.

Weren't you the one talking about Lite-C? (post: #799124) If you blame me of being offtopic, at least take a look at yourself first dude.

Besides I was talking about graphics with shaders in mind, regardless of the 'general rant' nature of the post, I don't see why I was off topic there,

Cheers

Like always your are NOT guilty of anything

This alone tells the whole story.

But for everybody else it is very simple: This topic is about shader related graphics programming. My post about Lite-C in connection with my comment about shader tools programming is a part of a shader pipeline (so I was not off-topic at all) but talking about game-play and ranting and calling other people your dude is far off.

But nevertheless. We all know you like that. And to make it even more simple: You started the off-topic discussion here. So just stop commenting off-topic and it will be fine.

Yeah, someone should ban Frank for provoking and behaving like a 12yr old,

Cheers

This thread is a waste of time and should be locked and deleted....

You are lying and everybody here can read about it if they go through this thread. Unfortunately all this bullshit ruins these threads so I don't think anyone would even want to read through this anymore. Big thanks to you Frank, big thanks to you,

Cheers

(*sigh*)

Okay, time out both of you.
I'm not sure what either of you is trying to prove, but personal attacks are just a waste of time.

Thread closed.