The Future - Is There One?

What's going on with GameStudio? Is it slowly dying? Where are the beta updates that I am used to seeing? Where are the forecast updates that I am used to seeing updated?

Please not again... btw your site seems to be dead too...

when there is no more room in hell...3dgs will walk the earth

Yep. My site is dead. I've moved on. But that has nothing to do with my original question.

To answer your question. Quoting from an email of a German developer studio`s CEO to me:

It`s the development speed of the engine, the Windows-only thing and the high effort you have to invest to make a great game that makes the Acknex Engine increasingly uninteresting for serious game programming.

Just show them SüperCan and they will shut the fuck up (personal experience).

Of course there are several reasons to move on with unity.
I´ll use them both, because both of them have their strengths and weaknesses.

No. What I was talking about (and I am sure many here understand) is that GameStudio has been around for a long, long time. And I've been involved with GameStudio for a long, long time as well (all the way back to v3). In all those years, GameStudio has always had a wonderfully constant progress of updates. The beta forum was usually quite busy. The Forecast and Beta links often contained fairly frequently updates.

But now? Silence.

Not completely. But instead of a roar of activity, there is a whisper that is barely audible.

Look at the forecast page for the New Wed. It's been sitting at 50% for how long now? The RPG template has been at 30% for how long?

Look at the beta page. What do you see? v8.3 was released on October 15th. The next beta was released February 14th. That's FOUR MONTHS! And that was only to go from v8.3 to v8.31!

I am concerned about this incredible slow-down to GameStudio development. That's all. I love the engine. Love what can be done with it and have used it for a long time. But it seems like the developers have either lost interest or are moving on to something else.

Dagobert. Maybe.


Most people don`t want to use an engine with unknown future. Problem is that Conitec and JCL don`t communicate anything about future developments.
"We are working on a new WED" "We are working on an Android port". But once you ask any detailed questions there`s complete silence. Not even any answer.

The game engine market`s low budget sector (Unity,Torque,C4) is developing fast at the moment. Gamers want to see great graphics and stuff. And to deliver that you need to have an efficient workflow and good tools. The easier artistic workflow is the main reason for me to seriously think about Unity on the long run.
And I`m really the last one who likes to go that way.

Sure. I completely understand this.

WED and MED are old. Very old. I remember when Conitec licensed some old Quake model editer (QED, was it?) and made it into MED. Well, frankly, it hasn't really changed all that much. And WED might have been great in the days of WorldCraft (Half-Life's editor) when BSP engines were all the rage, but now?

That`s the question, yes.

QOOLE -> WED
Q2Modeler -> MED

Thank you. I had them all back in the day.

I hope Dagobert development doesn't takke too long, since that project started the GS development is going really slow, before that we had new releases every month

I think the long support of compatability is slowing the engine down unnecessarily.

Just look at the Fileformats, wich are stuffed with struct elements to support old formats.
(The palette -12 years outdated tech- indicating this nicely)
Or the Quake-1 default texture in WED.

I think Gamestudio should really have a structural overhaul.

Make a well finished final A8, and start A9 without looking backward and restrict itself by legacy elements.

This does not mean everything needs to be canned, but
features should be implementable without fear to break the old system.

+1

i also agree. parts of the file formats are quite horrible and cumbersome. i would prefer zipped json or something like that.

and it seems like the active user base is reduced to like 50 or so. what is jcls plan to lure all the lost users back over once there really is a new wed and an android version (in 3 years :))? almost impossible in my opinion... what will be the selling point? do you really think the new wed will be that awesome?

+3

+4

+0b101

Yes. Like we need WAD support any more. And, as has been pointed out, a 256 color palette!

My A7 is still doing fine for the type of games I make.

My A8 is doing fine as well, except that my games won't run on Mac or Linux. A structural overhaul would likely make other changes easier to implement, including OpenGL.

Whatever comes after KarBOOM won't use GS if we don't get Mac and Linux support (or at least Mac, but you might as well do Linux while you're at it).

Right now I'm trying to keep my game logic independent of the engine. So far coupling another engine on my project works fine, so long it implements the same interface.

That makes sense. Everything I've been doing lately in KarBOOM I've been trying to do in such a way that it's easily portable to standard C/C++ for my custom engine in case I want to do similar things with my next project and we don't get cross-platform support.

What other engine have you been using?

Take this forum for example. This place use to be hopping. It was hard to keep up with all the posts. Sure, there's still a decent amount of posting going on, but it is nowhere near what it used to be. For example, the most popular place for posts was in Morbius. The place would overflow with posts. I have gone a good part of a weekend (recently) and seen zero posts ... 1 post, etc. That's it. It used to never be like that.

This place was crawling with activity. The engine was being worked on with fairly consistent updates. Users were pumping out work of all kinds and at all levels. Feedback (both good and bad) was flying. There was even a consistent amount of work (paid and otherwise) to be found in the jobs forums.

Now? The place feels like an old town that most people are leaving behind. I used to love to come here and used to check posts frequently, hourly sometimes. Now? I can go days and know I have not really missed anything.

Part of the blame, in my opinion, is the lack of development of this fantastic game creation engine.

I guess I am just getting old and longing for the old days.

the religious people have left. all the fun creationism threads were half of the forum activity.

I would be really interested in the actual user quantity of 3dgs, and in the ratio of free users, hobbyists and serious/professional users. the latter seems to be really low based on this forum activity, and on known projects released. but the sum also can't be too high, if I check my 3dgs related webpage traffic, the highest was 40 visit a day when I uploaded some free stuff (skies, trees, terrains), second best is 34 when I released MapBuilder in Dec, and only 17 when my work was mentioned in AUM in Oct.

And that's part of my concern, sivan. Years ago this forum rocked. People were posting like crazy (and it wasn't all by religious people ). There was a grand sense of helping one another out. People were posting screen shots almost all the time (several people with several screen shots on a daily basis). Code snippets were flying here and there. The place was hopping with 3DGS activity.

And as far as projects, professional, hobbyist, good, bad, etc, ... they seemed to be everywhere. People were pushing the software, bugging issues, discussing the ins and outs of 3DGS, and attempting to push the software where it hadn't gone before.

Now? This place is relatively dead.

Personally, I think some of this has to do with the slower development of the software and less visibility by Conitec on the forum. This forum, as ugly as it is (and it's always been ugly, imo), was active with people who both used and did not use 3DGS. Many who did not use 3DGS bought the software as a result of the activity they saw going on in this forum.

Does anyone here remember when Caligari created GameSpace? They chose to support 3DGameStudio (and even GameStudio's outdated MED file file formats). Why? According to Caligari, GameStudio was the most used, most popular game engine out there available for indies. There's no way this could be the case now.

So why/how did Conitec drop the ball? Did they lose interest? Did the new management (wasn't Conitec sold at some point in the last few years) decide to move in another direction? Or are the other engines (Unity, etc) just simply drawing away many 3DGS and potential 3DGS users?

Speaking of Conitec and its interest in its user base, the employees of Conitec used to frequent these forums and get involved in many ways. Marco, Doug, JCL ... they were there frequently answering questions and even getting involved in the mayhem that occurred in various threads (even starting some of the mayhem from time to time). That really made people feel connected with the company and, thus, with the software they produced.

Doug and Marco are no longer with Conitec. I don't personally come here as often, but I don't even know who the other guys are. And JCL? I rarely see posts from him (in comparison to how often he used to post).

JCL should have invested in at least one programmer who was 100% focussed on Gamestudio. The fact that there isn`t any development speed at the moment (and to be honest I believe that Conitec hasn`t even seriously started working on a new WED and the Android/Linux/Mac port) snaps the engine`s neck in my eyes.
Yes, you can achieve nice things with Acknex. And Süpercan is a real project. Cool things are possible. But I`m sure that with Torque 3D or maybe Unity (I havn`t experience with Unity) many people could have achieved so much more on their current knowledge level.
The truth is: To make really great, modern things with Acknex on a professional level you need to be a both a professional programmer and designer. You must know how to efficiently program shaders, how to program your own collision system better than the one from Gamestudio, how to program your own MDL-exporters for your tools, pathfinding, physics plugin extensions, advanced user interface solutions, maybe some ingame editor functionalities, and other stuff while comparable engines come with a WYSIWYG editor, a shader editor, working direct model importers, a better collision system, a pathfinding solution, advanced physics plugins and much more. And they come with an open forecast list and things like editor stuff is widely discussed.

The sad thing about this is that we had many good community solutions for missing features. But Conitec isn`t interested in supporting them and/or making them official. Intense Pathfinding was a good and working pathfinding solution with user interface extension for WED. The project is dead.
Shade-C could have been so much more and comes with "make your shader" functionalities. Project is as good as discontinued.
The Newton-Wrapper used to be great, too.
The Blender exporter.
And there`s so much more.

Garage Games with the Torque engine for example activly supports user projects. Some of them even can be downloaded on the Torque homepage for some money and are officially supported.

I like Gamestudio. I really do. But if Conitec continues like this, I don`t see the old days coming back.

Unterschreibe ich Dir. Ich selbst werde wahrscheinlich nie wechseln, weil ich nicht auf Geld aus bin, klar ich hätte nix dagegen, is aber kein muss. Aber ich glaube die Tage wo 3DGS Spiele in Zeitschriften neben Build Engine Projekten auftauchten, sind gezählt (z.B. Skaphander). Warum sollten unbekannte Teams mit 3DGS starten? Wenn ich heute auf Enginesuche gehen würde, denke ich nicht, das meine Wahl auf die Acknexengine fallen würde. Bin mal gespannt, wo der 3DGS Zug noch hinsteuern wird.

mfg
Edit: Nicht falsch verstehen, ich liebe 3dgs. Ich sage auch nicht das seine Tage gezählt sind, ich sage nur, damals schien mir das Programm "mächtiger".

Please. If the topic begins in English, then it stays in English. The same is true with German, etc.

I translate:

be optimistic: updates are getting rare because something big improvement is done behind the scene, and good work needs time (similarly to bad work)
but don't forget to make price & feature comparison among engines, and what skills and other software knowledge & ownership are required to start. 3dgs seems to be not a bad choice at all, if you don't want to spend too much money...
but my example is very typical: I just made first an own editor because I found WED not suitable for my purposes.

Thats 100% correct too. The price is fantastic on the other side. But even the Unreal Engine is not impossible for small teams, since UDK was released. Dont know much about it but i heard the license/price must be "ok" for that software.
If u compare price and power of 3dgs its a fair deal, yes.

I rather doubt this is the case, though I would hope it was. I have had a long history with 3DGS (even involved in the beta test a bit) and if there was little activity publicly, there usually was something going on in beta. There hasn't been. And even if there was something going on behind the scenes, it's bad business to ignore your customers and let them sort of fade away, don't you think? Even if they reveal a super-cool new engine and tools, who will be here to witness it? (Yes, I was exaggerating).



As others have pointed out here, because of how outdated the tools are, you need to be a virtual expert to use GameStudio properly (creating your own import/export tools, etc). This being the case, there are many, many FREE engines out there with many more features that make GameStudio look quite outdated. And other engines are not very expensive these days. Compare the pro version of Unity to GameStudio. How about Torque? And what good is a price point (should GameStudio come out ahead) if the product actually is dying?

The long death of gamestudio:

My two target platforms are windows and mobile. For windows I use 3dgs, for mobile I use Mosync, both in C++.


Dwarf Fortess took 2 years to release 2 major updates. Inbetween came no updates at all. But the fanbase was never labelling DF as dead.

I didn't label GameStudio as dead. I asked if there was a future. That's asking, not stating. And the graphic with the tombstones does not tell the story. Since v3, GameStudio's community has been vibrant and active. And Conitec's staff has been involved with its community. This is not so any more. At least, it is not anywhere near the level that it once was. This gives the impression that Conitec is getting ready to move on to other pastures. It may not be the case, but it certainly seems that way.

If nothing changes it will be dead, though.

I would not start any bigger project anymore with it as long as there is no new information about the future plans of Conitec released.
Not a problem for me, as I don't start bigger projects anyway - destined to fail

I said that the lower priced versions worth the money, not the pro. I have only extra now, but commercial is under my max limit too. I would never give so much money for any engine (man, that's the price of a good guitar! ) because I'm not a professional user. Rather I would spend money on a new pc...

Dan, if you don't have to waste hours on the forum anymore, become yourself vibrant and powerful and make an awesome graphics demo. You have the skills, I know it - unleash them! That was meant absolutely serious, no kidding.

Sivan RealSerious3D is Dan Silverman?

RealSerious3D... haven't you noticed the "I was here long ago" stuff?

Ken Silverman would be cooler

HeelX, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them. I am on to other things for the most part. Wrote a sci-fi/fantasy novel that is to be published this April or May (very excited about that), doing a lot more traditional art and digital fantasy art, etc. I want to get back into RT3D stuff, though, and GameStudio and I go back a long, long way. I was tinkering with it when it was ACK, then ACKNEX, when it was on a disk with a game programming book and when some company called OP Group had it.

I still read this book from time to time cause of the good old times oP Group, i remember the bad logo sprite in demo level on demo disk

@Dan:
hey welcome back Dan

@all:
As always we're running through changes.
The engine is hot and commercial edition has all the good features like RenderToTexture and nice shadows. If the ressource packer would be included I nether would look to other engines.

Like Rondinion I use Blender for Leveldesign.
1. Creating the whole world
2. Split it in separate regions
3. than paint each with black/red/yellow/white colormap
After that I add in WED invisible blocks for collision detection and set the terrainshaders.

Rest of logic comes with SED.

Yesterday I followed the link to Unity3D because the free Android thing. Did download some stuff and crawled through the their forum.

Unity pro is no option for me....to expenssive for my hobby. And the free version lacks of shadows and rendertotexture.

The Android support is sure a nice option.
BUT are all indie developers sentenced to create stuff for phones only and earning 15 cent pro game????

15 cent is better than nothing but this is not my personal intension in game creating.

In the unityforum they had the same discussions like here
The engine lacks on power and members switching to other engines. I did a quick look to Visual3d.net.

After that I looked here again

,
gri

You're welcome!


Actually, it is OP Group again and not Conitec anymore.



If you hold the copyrights, then why don't you take a part of your novel (or the universe) and make it into a game. The trick is: Although it is sci-fi/fantasy, you could use traditional paintings etc. as a basis for the artstyle of the game. That would be something unique. Most sci-fi games have this clean metal/light/glass look with laser beams and holographic-stuff. I would like to see a real sci-fi game, Okami style, if you know what I mean Man, that would be awesome!

I just found another game engine comparison table on Esethel engine site, to help your decisions (3dgs is not included):
http://www.esenthel.com/?id=compare

How so? It looks to me like it is cooling.



Wow. Really? When did this happen (and why does the home page still say Conitec)?



It's part of the plan, actually (and part of my renewed interest in GameStudio). I have the novels (a trilogy), an old school pen and paper RPG (like Dungeons & Dragons) based on the concept, and a potential video game as well. I do hold all the copyright and rights to the story, characters, artwork, universe, etc. I was very careful about this.



I am not sure that I will go the route that you suggest, though I have toyed with this for other game concepts. I want to create the world in a way that is similar to what goes on in the book. Fortunately, the book deals with the ability to travel to other dimensions/realms. So this means that just about any type of environment can be created.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.



My decisions? I am not (at the moment) making any decisions. I've been using 3DGS for far too long. However, I am concerned about the state of the current engine and its future. Thus, this thread.

As far as Esethel, I have that (and a few dozen other engines) already bookmarked.

Welcome Back Dan.

I've been checking this forum for over ~10 years now and i absolutly have to confirm you dan.. the user base never have been smaller. I think If there was a change of the forum server (like ~6 or 7 years ago), there wouldn't be much more than 100-200 users on the new server. That's really sad for an engine where the active and friendly user-base was (at least for me) one of the best "features".

If there is A9 in ~1 year (ofc without a stable / any android port) - is there really (!) anyone here who will BUY a9 professional? Are you REALLY willing to spend around 1000 bucks for an engine which is 1) outdated and 2) without any progress?
The progress of A8 just makes me a little bit sad, especially because of the extremly bad communication of jcl. How often have you heard: "I'll put this on my list"? How often have there be no response at all to certain user requests?
I asked jcl a long time ago for local variables debugging, which was an absolutly must-have feature for me. He more or less promised (privatly) the feature will be released in april 2011 (!) which is now also some time ago .
The completle communication is neither professional nor user-friendly.

I just highly doubt that anyone is really working on the engine anymore. So in my opinion the only possible "life-saver" would be an open-source 3D-Gamestudio engine which is developed further by the best programmers here in the forum. Besides that ~20-30.000 bucks have to be invested to get a good working and looking world editor.
As i do not see this coming for 2 years now, for me the engine is already dead.

Duke 3D - Build Editor. Oh yesss

Doesn´t look that bad to me. Working on PSSM, map compiler and ways to change shader properties from within an editor on a per object base.

If A9 comes with a new WED, I don´t really see a reason why I shouldn´t update, because I really like the engines approach to supply basics and offer things like shaders as some basic templates just like movement scripts and stuff like that. The only thing that isn´t yet that awesome is the way these templates are structured and can be setup. I also don´t really see a reason for an android port, except that it means an OpenGL renderer which would help linux and mac support a lot.
Also, in my opinion while WED and MED are definatly outdated, they are much easier to understand for a beginner than for example the Unity editor and I am really not sure if I hadn´t given up if I had started with Unity instead of gamestudio.
Of course you are right, about this forums activity, which was really great in the past...

The android port does not mean opengl. It means a liteC->java "compiler" (jcl stated this some time ago)

As a matter of fact, they already disclosed that they are working on an OpenGL ES renderer (which would be a perfectly valid OpenGL renderer)... Everything else wouldn't make any sense, no one buys Gamestudio just to write a normal application in Lite-C...

The problem is more than WED and MED being outdated. They do things in very strange/poor ways. Especially MED. A beginner who learns 3D, for example, via MED is really at a disadvantage as he will not be able to use much of that knowledge elsewhere (i.e. when using other 3D applications). If MED were more standardized, then I might agree with you.

Secondly, MED is NOT a good program for a beginner, imo. It makes you jump through all sorts of complex hoops to get simple tasks done. It is overly complex for such a simple program (simple meaning, it doesn't really do a whole lot). Other full-featured 3D apps are easier to understand (imo) and faster to get things done in. So, no, MED is not an ideal app for beginners (again, imo).

WED isn't too bad, but I may be saying that because I know my way around WED. I've been using the damned thing for way too long. However, WED can be one of the most frustrating apps I have used. It's viewports are slow, slow, slow. The display quality is crap. After all these years it is still not drag-n-drop for simple things like adding items, textures, etc. If we were teleported back to the days when Quake was a brand new game, then I would be singing WED's praises. But today? This is barely a Windows app and a poor one at that.

People in the know these days try their best to avoid using either MED or WED. This should not be the case with the tools supplied by and made by the people who make the engine, imo.

just my personal thoughts inspired by this discussion about the 3dgs editors:

for me MED was a good start as a simple 3d modeller, but later found disturbing it because of its missing (nearly basic) functionalities. but after MED it is easy to get familiar with for example Milkshape, Fragmotion, Sculptris, Hexagon, which are cheap or free. moreover, some other engines do not have own modelling tools at all... as an engineer who worked for years with autocad and other really different cad/cam systems, 3dsmax is the more attracting one, but too complex and expensive for a hobby user (I used and liked gmax too for modding), I tried out Maya but found not for my taste, and Blender seems to be made on another planet (but would be really worthy to learn to use). for the first sight WED seemed to be a good and simple tool, easy to make simple levels from blocks, but after a short time I totally eliminated it from my workflow (because I need outer scenes with terrain, vegetation and building models). Terrain creation is also possible by some free/cheap tools (Terragen, L3DT, PnpTerrainCreator, Earthsculptor), the offered features are really basic in MED and WED. GED always crashed, so I gave up to use it at all.

so if I would own 3dgs, I would keep MED as is, with minor updates for catching beginners to offer a complete package (because advanced users can use a lot of other tools due to their taste), and would concentrate on WED to make it more up-to-date and cool looking, and a more integrated tool, suitable both for beginners and professionals - which is the hardest task. I like Lite-C, I would keep it too. but unfortunately the development speed is really not comparable to other engines at the moment...

To my knowledge OpenGL ES + Android is confirmed. Just no date is given...

And I wanted to add I really really hate WED - especially for its problem with keys getting stuck in Walkthrough mode!!

The workflow is very very poor.... even for simple levels.

I just remembered that ParadoxStudio (the creator of the Natural Media Center and the AR plugin) said (after asked for it), that they use Gamestudio because of it's easyness and straightforward way of working with.

One of my clients is launching a biofeedback device for the health & medical market and is seriously considering to use Gamestudio as default development platform for future games and applications, because stunning results can be created/prototyped and polished in a very short timeframe and it has some unique features like the native socket commands that are perfect for their hardware interface.

I know several developers that are producing retail Gamestudio-games for the german market that have budgets of over several dozens of grands. Here in this forum are active and inactive people that are still making a huge amount of their money with it.

What almost anyone is missing is the fact, that games in particular require a huge amount of work and for most productions, customized in-house tools are an absolute must-have, not including the tools to create art, audio and everything else you need. Plus talent and effort and blood and sweat and tears - and not fancy soft shadows from outer space.

You know what? Talk is cheap and I seriously doubt that most of the people are really constrained in how they are progressing with their game (if there is even something in development) because feature X and Y are missing or platform Z is not supported.

In my eyes it is more important to ask "what can I do?" than "what can I not do?". And if you really think that there is no way to do what you want to do --- you are always free to change technology..

Well that fake MMO project and Dagobert really put on the handbrake for the 3DGS development (we don't even seem to get a recent AUM thumbnail anymore ). To my mind this sort of was the finishing blow to a somewhat sub-par engine as it badly needed quite an overhaul back then and today even more as the other engines leaped ahead...

It's hard to blame anyone for this though. There sure were some bad decisions concerning the course of development (both outright wrong or just turning out wrong in the long term) but even with all decisions made just right 3DGS probably would have fallen short by now due to the lack of manpower. 3DGS never succeeded in growing or maybe the need for this never was realised. Today there exist engines like Unity with a huge team behind it. With maybe just JCL really working on the engine itself nowadays (I don't know too much about the number of people working on the engine itself since Marco left) there's no way 3DGS can compete...

I still think the only option 3DGS has is to stick to a niche and be good at that. The recent messages concerning Android support and so on don't really show that though - there's next to no appeal in using 3DGS for a mobile game. It's true that Indies really have a chance on that market and Indies are what 3DGS aims for but they need an easy to handle engine and a good art pipeline. Not mentioning some advanced culling or well optimized shaders etc. for some limited eyecandy. All of these are aspects where 3DGS falls flat though and that's why I see little success in the development of Android games with Acknex which also slows down the development of the highly needed improvements on the engine itself and its editors...

So when being asked about the future of 3DGS I see it falling into oblivion / vanishing into thin air as it won't be a competitive product anymore (and actually even right now hardly is)...

HI HeelX,

I am going to disagree to some extent with some of what you have said above. No hard feelings, I hope.

First of all, no one here has said that you cannot create anything with GameStudio nor has anyone said that retail games and professional products cannot be created with GameStudio. But let's look at this statement of yours for a moment:



Yes. Exactly. But the people who have the ability to build customized in-house tools are also capable, if they so chose, to use just about any engine out there from free ones like Ogre to something that costs thousands of dollars. These types can make choices because they can create what is lacking if they need it. But most of the rest of us do not have this choice.

GameStudio is not billed as a game engine for professionals (it was certainly not developed by id ). It is promoted as a studio for people to make games, even if they have little to no skill in the making of games. That is why it comes with WED, MED, and templates for things like making a shooter game, RPG, etc. But it is also an engine that professionals use as they can indeed develop their own DLLs, can extend the engine to some degree, make their editors, etc.

So a person or a company that is looking for an already created engine to use may select GameStudio for a variety of reasons (and you've mentioned at least one of them). But that does not mean that the engine is not dying or being neglected by the developers. Nor does it mean that GameStudio is what it should be. I am an artist. I don't mind using the template code or developing some simple code, but I just want to create stunning environments and move through them (or allow others to move through them). I can certainly get things going in GameStudio, but it is a pain in the butt to use this engine if one is not a programmer. I am forced to use WED to some degree and to deal with its issues. And the engine is very limited when compared to others (and, since I am not a programmer, I don't have the option of adding on to it via a custom DLL, etc).



Maybe. Maybe not. However, it is not the missing features that get me. And I have rarely complained about missing features. I don't really need cool new features for most of what I want to do. But I do complain about the terrible tools, the bugs, the lighting errors, the times when WED will not compile a level right during a build or won't compile the level at all, etc. These are not "new features" that I am talking about, but getting the engine to simply work smoothly.

And build times, though faster than previous editions, are still too long in some scenarios. It's just feels like this engine has too many hooks into the past ... as if it is somehow still a version of the Quake engine with a bunch of really cool add-ons. Yeah. I know that this is not the case in any way, shape, or form. But this is the impression I am sometimes left with. Maybe it comes from staring at WED too long.



I agree. However, that is not the topic of this thread. I am just wondering if I am going to be FORCED to change technology because GameStudio is dying in the eyes of the developers.

Ok, that was fair enough. Maybe I was also looking too much with the eyes of a programmer, biasing my statements.

To some degree, I agree ... especially if they don't increase the development team to bring this level up a notch. What seems to be really missing (imo) is a well rounded real-time 3D game engine that allows non-programmers to EASILY make 3D games. The templates are lacking in this regard and are not either bulletproof or all that easy to use properly. If the developers came up with a simple system that allowed easily created games (somewhat like The Game Creators FPS Creator, but better) I think that would rock and would sell many copies (if sold at an affordable price). And if they still allowed for "professional" developers to do what we are already doing, then all the better.

HeelX (and others) ... this has been a fun and informative discussion, though. No one has gotten bent out of shape, no "voices" were raised, and people are sharing their thoughts in a constructive manner. Very cool. And that's especially good since the initial reaction to my posting this thread was something like, "Not again!"

I would be really interested in your (I mean in plural) opinion about what other game engines are worthy to be tried/used beside/instead of 3dgs, and for what type of games/applications they are really practical. Taking into account 3dgs commercial as a maximum price. And must be suitable for one person development (i.e. not needed to be professional neither in graphics nor in programming).
- I tested Unity free - simple, but no shadows, too messy project handling, not good for my purposes;
- atm I'm testing the Ogre based Neoaxis - it offers a lot of example projects, including 2 pathfinding systems, but its workflow is not too smooth at all, so probably I'm uninstalling it soon;
- DXStudio - said to be really slow in fps;
- Torque - the Pacific demo also shows very low fps on my pc, its scripting seems to be not so simple as Lite-C, but anyway it might be not too bad;
- UDK - seems to be fine, free (plus royalties), but atm has too high system requirements for me;
- Esenthel - seems to be fine, but atm has too high system requirements for me;
- CryEngine - seems to be fine, free (plus royalties), but atm has too high system requirements for me;
- HeroEngine - seems to be fine, free (plus royalties), system requirements are achievable.
So until now 3dgs seems to be the best option to keep system requirements at the lowest possible level, achieving an acceptable graphics quality by utilizing some 3rd party tools too, and last but not least it has a simple scripting language. Please share your experiments. Maybe it would require to create another thread?

http://blogs.unity3d.com/2012/03/10/gdc-2012-unity-3-5-and-advanced-character-animation-preview/

there is no way gamestudio will ever have such tools. well, except if jcl makes tens of millions of euros with zorro and hires a team as big as unity's.

(hm... but even with those tools... most games made in unity look extremely boring to me. :))

Well when looking at their GDC reel pretty much all games are made for mobile platforms or browser games and I also think this in general is a very strong side of Unity. Sure - those one button games don't look very exciting to me either but it seems that there still is quite a market for Indies which is why probably the majority of Unity games are from this sector...

@sivan:
You forgot about Shiva...

Yes, the tool chain is a huge problem for A8.
I love the engine itself, it can do everything I need just fine, and is flexible enough to extend it in many ways. All that is missing is the capability to compile Lite-C to DLL so I can switch to C++ and still use my Lite-C templates as DLL (doing the C++ part as DLL painfully limits the debug possibilities).

But the tool chain is really slowing me down, and there are no real news or pictures or anything more than a percent number concerning the new WED. It's disappointing.

And, Firo, you've been here a long time. Maybe even longer than I have. I am sure you remember how active this forum was, how much time the employees of Conitec spent on the forum answering questions, helping people, and even just messing around. And the development cycle for the betas, even during the slow periods, was fairly swift and active. Now? It's like this place has dried up.

(we are feasting on old memories)

More like starving, if you ask me. To me, it's like looking at a corpse and saying, "Do you remember when this guy used to breathe?"

I would suggest, website needs a facelift. -It's darnright ugly.
Make user accounts - where it keeps a record of who is who and we can re-download bought contents. This provides a base for where users can log onto 3dgs and have a basis of what is going on. Especially updates.

If someone does a clean format, it would be handy to log onto your 3dgs account and with a click, redownload all your contents and be back exactly where you were.

Take a look at Torque3d's website. Professional looking. They take the worry out of lost keys, etc. I can be comforted in knowing that what I paid money for is there for me to use at all times. Log on, redownload.

Once I log on, I can see where my software is at, the updates, what new versions I can upgrade to. It's a chance to sell new patches - updates, sell new tools, etc. If we can incorporate skins, tools which users can submit to 3dgs and which can be uploaded and then downloaded for a fee.

So the community can have a chance to submit new tools, skins, environments.
This provides a steadily growing base of tools and other game making items for developers.

We have a post counter, would be cool to have a downloaded counter, etc.

ps, can we make the submit, preview reply, switch to full reply screen look like they're buttons....

I guess the colour scheme is in step with the german flag...

i know that there are "a lot" of pages for gamestudio resources
but you don't have any site where really all stuff is collected and shared as one
maybe we users can create something like you suggested (but without the key stuff )
but who has time to do this? and the money?

Simply go to "My Stuff -> Edit Preferences -> Your preferred stylesheet" and choose f.i. ubbthreads_stock, I use that for years and I think it looks cool.

Seriously, this Forum is really dead. Used to be that almost
every section had new posts many times per day.

Now Im happy to see some posts from the current day at all.

It is an important fact in life that everything comes to an end.
After such a long time with a new medium which opens such a fine social network... it is like loosing his best kindergarden friend, when the university ends, the job begins and finally he left the street for a new country. (Ask gry) This is harder then loosing his wife after the "rosenkrieg".
But there are other great places... and you only have to stay up.
Don´t waste your time . The grave don´t bring back your love.
Run my brothers to the rising sun, to a new dawn. Peace!
Our time is short till our sons will bring us six feet under.
Hail my brothers. Who want´s to die forever in this place?
In 2 years this forum is surely reduced to "morbius"!!!!

maybe this forum is lacking posts because all is answered ^^
or maybe the new kids won't make their own games anymore because they can buy nearly any game you can imagine....

but hey, morbius is better than nothing

As only AckCon is important - who really cares?

Fun read. It's nice to see Dan around, although I wish it were under better circumstances.

Was thinking of posting something similar, but this thread pretty much covers it.

I remember when I bought, I think it was, A5 from Best Buy in some sort of game making package. It was amazing! The templates worked, the forums were busy, and there were tutorials galore. But now? Life support.

I love Gamestudio. It got me into the business. I made many things with it, although it always seemed to be more of a struggle than it should have been. And now I've moved on. If these guys would step it up, I'd come back.

Forum is almost dead.. But even so, it's overflowing with those selling models/arts/bullshit members and I really feel sick to see almost only selling stuff in contribution threads. I'm not that old member, but when I just started working with GS, I remember there were a lot of stuff shared for free, how members were trying to help each other and new members. I hope someday it'll come back to those good old times.

good old times never come back, and good new times can come, but only if work is done for it.

in this particular case it means continuous engine development to be up-to-date in competition, and have a good marketing alongside, to attract new users, and keep the existing ones. it would also require nice online content and easily available demos, videos, tutorials, and links to games released created by the given engine.

I think 3DGS is concentrating mainly on beginners and hobbyists who requires simple but complete tool-set and lower system requirements. and it's really good as a starting engine in 3D game creation. those who have some 3D art or C#/C++ programming knowledge, have better options.

and also the licence price and conditions are also important, but when you can download e.g. a cracked Unity Pro easily, probably a lot of people decide to use that because they know that they will never release a completed game (or they buy one licence when project is ready after some years to legalize the work). or use e.g. Esenthel where full functionality is available, you have to pay only when releasing a commercial project. or UDK. probably much better examples can be written...

I think many gamemakers underestimate Gamestudio 3D. Next to that, I have heard that the templates from UDK etc. are way better. Personally I dont use any templates anymore, I have used a template once but noticed it was heavily outdated.

However, if you have the freetime and hone your program & modeling skills often, you can create some wonderfull things with this engine.

As for the somewhat dying community, less gamestudio 3d programmers make us leftovers more special .

True words...
Just think about how fast you can create anything. For example i've done some movement like in diablo in just about 20 minutes which feels great to play
maybe i'm creating some game out of it or just some prototype
i tried to change the engine but in the most engines you are not free to create what you want

lol I am currently doing a diablo like game too. Gamestudio 3d engine is nice for an hack & slash, I am especially astonished by the lightning and the terrain bumpmap (second terrain skin). And since I dont use any height differences in the terrain, the editing in WED is less tedious (mapping has never been this easy ).

About 3DGS,
i see now Zorro project in the banner of the forums ???
What's happening with Conitec ?
Seriously people coming here is to make games and find a good engine !

Why doing some advert of a trading product to people here more interested in games ?
It should have is own forum not here and not be mixed with game making ?

What we should say if Unity 3D, Torque 3D, Esenthel Engine , Visual 3D etc ... would propose some threads about a trading product in their forum page ???

Really Conitec should not mix game making with trading tools, it makes them like some company doing several things at same time and not concentrated in one priority only :
GAME MAKING ??

Well perhaps , it's 3DGS beginning to sink ?
like Blitz3D , only the fans or new comers to 3D will remain ?

I like it, but i don't like how things are turning this time.

yes, this Zorro thing seems to have not really the best effect on 3dgs development...

yes, this Zorro thing seems to have not really the best effect on 3dgs development...

Indeed !
And Conitec should really choose their camp like fully concentrated on game making or trading tools.
It reminds me in some way the Gamecore Engine adventure :
MONEY ATTRACTION.

I think 3DGS don't bring enought money, and some 3D engines concurrents just by the amount of published games just show you can't race against them.

Conitec talked about mobile platform lot of months ago, but nothing, they don't have taken the step, and it will take one or two years (or more) before they have something comparable to existing solutions.

So their strategic solution for money is a trading tool ...
game making is just something aside it seems no more the main selling product.

Well ... let's see what will happen in next months ... ?

I agree that is too far away from a gamemaking software. However, what if it does get them the money they needed in which in turn they can use to keep updating Gamestudio 3D? I have the feeling it wont though, it looks too amateur-like (sorry, not meant to be insulting to the developers, just my opnion). But than again, I dont have a crystal ball. So who knows what will happen.

I dont understand the zorro thing and dont have the wish to exploring it.

We are here for gamedeveloping and not pushing money from here to there exept in our cases

I'm happy with the engine so far. Small things like a blender to mdl converter or a nice solution for multitexture terrain on models with mirrorwater would be great.

maybe we just need to publish some cool, goodlooking games to get the motivation back for others
i'm really looking forward to the release of superku and others
first i will have fun playing those and second you can share them (no piracy, just show them the games) with others (maybe friends) and get them to gamestudio

I know this is just some crazy dream, but i won't give up good ol Gamestudio

maybe we just need to publish some cool, goodlooking games to get the motivation back for others
i'm really looking forward to the release of superku and others

The problem, you only find some very few games of real commercial quality each year made with 3D game Studio like SuperCAn for example.

Just browse the amount of Unity 3D games to see the real difference, or some Torque 3D MMO ( Gideon MMO )
Well ...

Mobile would be a BIG BIG accelerator for 3DGS , in terms of games published, advert for 3DGS , so lot more money income
for Conitec.
Nothing on that side, and tablets, Mobile are exploding in terms of selling in the market !
I think they miss a BIG BIG STEP


Even other companies like :
Garage Games (iTorque 2D)
BLitz3D (Monkey for mobile)
Unity 3D
Esenthel Engine
LeadWerks 3D
Dark Basic Pro
Irrlicht
even Blender (Maratis3D engine)
and some others ....
...
have 2D or 3D Mobile solutions !

Indeed 3DGS with only Windows platform, seems to be loosing a big distance from the others companies; because :
- No Mobile solution
- No Flash and 3D support
- No Internet Bowser plugin (without using some other company plugin)
- No Mac support
- No Linux Support(Specially with Indie games)

But that's really the mobile point that really put 3DGS behind, specially when lot of people could concentrate on small games and make real selling also !

Like i said, let's see in the next months if something (or nothing) happens ... ?

Rachet, there are a several commercial games or applications (!), made with Gamestudio. But not every game is published to the public or is presented here. I am not 100% sure if mobile gaming would be a huge win for Gamestudio in general, but given the price policy, it could be a huge saving compared to the Unity 3D pricing. I dont know how much the Android plugin will cost, but A8 pro + Android plugin will be cheaper than Unity 3D Pro with Android plugin

Btw, Irrlicht is no company, but an open source game engine.

The problem is, that you can talk the trash talk everyday, but if you don't do anything, you are no good.

You can't blame the engine for missing shiny pixels if you are the guys that is not providing them.

The problem is, that you can talk the trash talk everyday, but if you don't do anything, you are no good.

I agree a lot with that.

And you can find alos lot lot of people sometimes interested in some 3D features, but never doing any game even some using 3DGS asking some feature without having a real project behind.

-----------

The thing is that i target Mobile game, so i use another engine, i have no choice at all. If 3DGS would have mobile it would be great to use Lite C indeed

I talk about mobile, so i don't seek shiny pixel also, my style will be more simple graphics in BorderLdands game style, or some Cube World Retro style !
For the shiny side, there are already really cheap 3D engines providing complete lithening and shaders solution without having to code and with simple workflow compared to 3DGS.

I talk low price engines, i dont' talk about Proven AAA engines like Unreal that can be a good deal for some people also; and having Mobile support.

--------------

3DGS workflow is a pain when you come back after using some other real time editors ... that the one big weakness.

That's the two points i pointed out, let's see how things will become in the future ... ?
But from 2012 : NOTHING really new, only lot of 3D commands, no new tools, or better workflow for 3D artists ... we are going quickly to 2013, only some months ... an empty year for non programmers people.
Even A7 to A8 have been only new 3D Commands, some new 3D features, but nothing for 3D artists, you keep WED and MED ...

Unity have a great strenght with it's open editor for plugins , that the other weakness of 3DGS that is not oriented for plugins made by users.

But i stop caus i know it's an engine mainly for Programmers ,
so i don't have to complain here.

------------

I use Shiva 3D that is even cheaper (some 180 Euros) than Unity Mobile basic (400 Euros) and have all 3D features.
Mobile requires lot of optimisation also, i'm not sure 3DGS for mobile will as fast as other solution that exist from years now and have evolved ?
Why choosing it when some others solutions are vene lot more advanced (navigation tools, rela time editing etc ..) like with Esenthel for example ? or Shiva 3D ?

Well again, i don't say 3DGS will fall, but that trading tool even on the banner really show Conitec is on the wrong direction and mixes game making and money on the same Forum:(
(specially money trading that is only something bad from my point of view when you see all the problems today, specially with Euro)
Money is needed indeed, but well Conitec should really keep things separated, if not : they make advert and search for
young people or hope some people will buy their tool here
I find that a shame really, but well they have the right, it's their forums.

Really Conitec should really keep appart they money appetite and game making !
For my point of view, it only shows some bad image, like we need money, game making is for another time.

------------

The lack of unified shader / ligthening / Shadow solution ready to use without programming, and lacking from years until today in 3DGS just shows another Weak point.
And shaders have been brought from lot of years (A6 version when i baught it), 3DGS have just been some programmer evolution until now ... nothing really on the editors

The Vegetation editor promised on Forecast from YEARS, well ... where it is ... ??
It's coming ? perhaps ? But i'm happy i don't have waited for it, of i would have wasted years waiting for nothing !

I doubt it will evolve to 3D artist or plugin orientation, and it should continue on the programmer orientation i think.

I don't say it will sink ...
but let's see what will it becomes on the future ?


-----------

Ok it was the thread : The Future Is there One ?

I have given only my taste and point of view
More 3D artist than programmer point of view indeed.


I use other solutions and i find it's a pain coming back to 3DGS and the very very very old tools/editors compared to advanced concurrent solutions.

Take it bad or not, i given my advice on 3DGS.
I like it's programming side, it's magazine, but it's not more enought to keep me using it now as others solutions are improving in the Worflow and 3D artist or Mobility side.
(I doubt 3D artists using some other engine will be able or want to use 3DGS, specially some using visual scripting plugins also.)


Lot of Betas , but for programmers only.
I baught A6, A7,A8 but i really think it will be impossible for me to be interested in A9.
It won't compete fro example with workflow and features/tools
of Unity 3D, Leadwerks 3, Esenthel etc .. etc ...
3DGS is not for 3D artists, i think it resumes very well the situation.

If you would produce more 3D art than programming like me, and if you would need simple click to apply shaders/lightening/shadows/vegetation/grass etc ... and had the priority to go fast, code only gameplay, you would think like me !

So should i sound bad, or talking trash, don't take it bad ; it's my taste only.
Conitec have their orientation, decisions, customer type target, it's their strategy !
I respect that , only that strategy don't suit 3D artists like me and lot of others.


Anyway good night to all programmers and long life to 3DGS also to make happy all of them


[b][/b]

Well speaking of the workdlow, the only 2 things that really annoy me of Gamestudio 3D and those have to do with the editors:

1. You can't color your texts in SED (except for 'comment line') to tidy your script.

2. Mapping in WED is annoying (the camera feels to restricted, shooting out with mouse cursor and moving something else than planned etc.).

But I recently noticed that they are community editors to somewhat replace SED and WED, so these problems are probably solved than too (I hope ).
Also is GED worth looking into?

yes, it really started to disturb me, as I'm not experienced at all in this field, but in other engines (in the same price category) I can get really fine solutions (e.g. in Neoaxis it is really nice and fast and just one click to set, in Esenthel only a few lines of code). so another thing to learn

anyway 3DGS is still very good for starting 3D game making, and for one person project development (especially if it is only a hobby, like in my case), mainly thanks to Lite-C what I really like. when I selected 3DGS I knew that I had to make my own game specific level editor, so I do not really care WED/GED, MED is usually okay as a mainly conversion step.

achieving commercial graphics quality by 3DGS probably requires more knowledge and work-time than in other engines, but in other engines programming requires more efforts... (or more money like in case of Unity what I do not plan to pay, and the free version is too restricted)

so imo 3DGS would be much better, if not only starting would be supported well by tutorials and AUM examples, but if a few small but commercial quality open source example projects would be released by the developer (could be third party), from where you could take ready to use solutions, fine tuned for this engine, and not only the community would give good advices for particular problems. it could be for a little extra money like in case of Esenthel, or free like in Neoaxis, it's a question of marketing.

GED :
Sorry, i used it, not incredible, and LOT LOT of bugs an dcrashes on my PC
Even if some editors are coming , like Vegetation tools on Forecats , lest' hope it won't take years for users ... ?


anyway 3DGS is still very good for starting 3D game making, and for one person project development (especially if it is only a hobby, like in my case), mainly thanks to Lite-C what I really like. when I selected 3DGS I knew that I had to make my own game specific level editor, so I do not really care WED/GED, MED is usually okay as a mainly conversion step.
You are in a special case of a programmer and that use it as Hobby, not specially targetting a game could it be free or not. So indeed it suits you.

And im' not sure Unity 3D for example would be complicated , it's easy to sue , specially with C# once you get the basics.
(Simple commands to call).
And just look at great quality plugins that exists with Unity 3D , it just prooves you could make your own editing tools as easy as the people that made the plugins
Even LeadWerks 3 will have some plugin orientation also to allow people to easy make custom editors or tools.

What lacks really is that :
- No unified lightening solution with shaders/Shadows/lights
- No plugin open oriented editor
- No mobile support
- No solid and fast real time editing
- No lot better workflow
- No today editor with panels and drag and drop features
- No GUI editor
- No advanced particle editor
- No easy lightmap import or generator
- No grass/Tress/vegetation tool
- No complete terrain editro (even if it will come from some users)
- No physic visual editor (character capsule adding and adjustemnt done in some minute), solid primitives visual adjustment etc ...

And i must forget some points.
But that's ok for programmers, caus they don't care about fast/easy workflow or visual editing tools !

For 3D artist using other engines , that don't care programming (only gameplay programming), it's hard to use , and hard to put a secen with complete lightening, or terrain and vegetation level etc ...

Well it does the job for programmers, and Lite C is great.
Conitec have is own strategy, indeed, i respect their decisions, and like any other engines, it will have it's followers and some that will leav it also.

For my part i won't wait years ... solution in indie market already exist if you have some project game idea.

But who knows ? perhaps they will surprise us with some solid lightening solution, or some mobile features one day ?

I don't know how fast the new editor development is, there are no too much info about it, only that it will use the engine dll for display thus real time editing should be possible, and the main concept is ease of use... as a consequence, I'm improving my own editor (due to my own special requirements)

Well it has been announced from months, it will be a year, and no screenshot about some new editor ?
PErsonnaly i just doubt a lot to see it, or be impressed, because i use some other 3D egines already having top notch world editor ...
But who knows, some people could be surprised ?
Once again, people seeking workflow in 3DGS improvment will just have to wait.
And programmers mainly using it don't care a lot, or have used 3DGS from years with WED and MED , so they can wait also !

And now, with Unity 4 in public beta ... is this the death knell of GameStudio? And, frankly, it's not the release of Unity 4, but the LACK of updates to GameStudio. And the fact that, frankly, GameStudio is seems so out of date. This saddens me. GameStudio and I go back a long way ...

i think unity is just a little bit faster in development because of the lack of gamestudio developers
but i hope the android support will be out "soon"

i currenlty switched to XNA not because it's "better" than gamestudio but i have much more control over the rendering (have to write all renderings from scratch)

That may be, but the GameStudio developers have been here for a long, long time. There was a time when they were in the lead as far as indie game engines were concerned. They had some good developers working for them, developers that would communicate with us on the forum. But these people are gone. And, as we've seen, the betas have become more and more silent.

I know. I know. I need to stop dredging this up. But GameStudio is deeply rooted in my past. I hate to see GameStudio slip from its lofty position among game engines to slowly fade into obscurity.

The description of this "Rants"-forum may make it seem different, but you have valid points, and it's only fair to voice them. With the perceived halfing (that may or may not be real) of development time due to Zorro, I think it feels more grave as ever.


Personally, I've tried to not get involved in this particular discussion here so far, but sure, I can't help but wonder as well.

So what I'm saying is, you shouldn't have to apologize for wondering and bringing your concerns up, and more communication from Conitec would be great, if only it was a daily (or even weekly!) updated forum post "What we are working on". And no one can argue that this forum has become more quiet than it used to be.



Aaah, I miss the old times.

unfortunately development became very slow, I thought Android and new WED is ready until Dec, but I think it will be next summer... updates and bug-fixes are also has a slow speed, but exactly reported stuff is always solved, so this side is not bad.
what I don't know is whether adding only Android support is enough or not when you have a couple of really multi-platform engine options...
Unity with its pricing policy is not an absolute winner, I simply won't buy the Pro, and the Free lacks LOD and shaders necessary for creating nice water. if it would have an interim version at half price, offering me what I minimally need, I would buy it.

I guess we need to be happy just for getting simple updates (even if they come out once in a year), and forget about new "awesome" WED and mobile support.. For me, they are like doomsday.. Some believe that it will be there, someday.. Others don't believe in it at all I only anchor one's hope on some community users, which are making some nice tools to make 3DGS not that much outdated. Thank you guys for your time and work!

Really fucking nice too see jcl answering questions in that "Zorro" bullshit.. about half an hour ago.. And not having enough time to answer anything in "bug hunt" forum!

Who are 3dgs's team? I always thought it was just JCL.
Anyway it seems to me now that 3dgs is going away very soon now, will probably become free and open source while "Zorro" flashes his blade.

Has anyone actually had a hands-on with Zorro?

Ive been wondering if it is 3DGS-based.
If it is, it may (hopefully) injecting some of its profits
into the 3DGS development coffers.

Well ... one can HOPE cant one?

It uses a slightly modified Lite-C compiler under the hood. Not sure if and when the changes get backported to 3dgs (but I would assume that at least some of them get backported)

I think if that guy over there won't be interested in 3DGS future, we won't get anything backported or even developed farther.. but I really hope that I'm wrong at this point. Anyway it really make me sick (and not only me I assume) to see how that bullshit project attracts more attention than main project which is GameStudio (at least for most of the community users).. I hope this won't go for too long..

I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have invested into a new WED and an Android port if they didn't see a future for Gamestudio. And it's not like there was a sudden change in the industry that killed Gamestudio in an unforeseen manner. Having to maintain two compilers isn't really a great thing, especially if you can't push your changes upstream, so I'm fairly certain that these two compilers get merged at some point.



I did not know that it was your role to determine which project should have which priority inside of Conitec.

You should understand that Zorro is a new product at an early stage, giving bad support when there is virtually no community around it will essentially starve the product and peoples interest in it (you can't just throw things at people and expect them to just figure it out on their own). Think of it however you like, but for some time this "bullshit" project will get most of the attention from Conitec. Gamestudio can carry itself for quite a bit through the well established community, something that won't work for Zorro.

Hmm.. Did I ever say anything related to this? You probably just didn't get the point of my words JustSid, as if you are saying such silly things. This forum mainly wasn't focused on "Zorro", was it?? MAIN Conitec project on this forum was and hopefully still is GAMESTUDIO, or am I opening America for you with this words? Or did I just miss something in here? I'm not the only one complaining about Zorro logo in the upper left corner And it is really strange to see this BULLSHIT right here, in the community of the GAMESTUDIO! People come here to make games/tools, not to test/use stuff for making money (or whatever) and I don't give a damn fuck about other conitec stuff, but they could at least make another forum for that NEW shit. I don't have anything much against that thing (Zorro thing), I'm happy for Conitec that they are able to invest some money in new "tools", but what I don't really like is that they new "tool" slows down GameStudio development, THE MAIN PROJECT HERE ON THIS FORUM, product for which this forum was made FOR! That's why I call it bullshit or whatever!

From a financial point of view Zorro carries much more attraction than 3DGS does, if you look at the possibilities regarding revenues and investment kickback.

There have always other topics been present on the forum too, look at the Morbius or Hilberts Hotel part, which originally accrued from a book and a page related to physics/philosophy.

Hopefully they'll make a good share with it and gain some free funds to strengthen the general developpment team, which will be beneficial to all of their tools.

I expect all A8 users to get a free update to A9.

On the Zorro site you find a forum :
Zorro site
And their forum is a sub part of 3DGS forum, that's very unprofessionnal and just proove they don't have money to make a dedicaced forum.

On Zorro site you can read : Take money form rich and give it to poor ? let me laught ... trading is what make the world so bad on these days.

If it was right Conitec, should do it for free and give Zorro for free if their goal was to save poor pople !

If you could take so much money, Conitect would use it and would hire developpers to make some big 3D game studio ....
or they would just concentrate on Zorro.


--------------------

But i understand without money and one guy having to manage all that ... by beeing on 3 domains :
-Galep device programmer
-3DGS
-Zorro
Without concentrating on some domain like 3DGS mainly and strongly , it could fail ?

Conitec just trying to adapt to survive , 3DGS is no more able to compete with other 3D engines[/color] (Shiva 3D, Unity 3D, Esenthel, LeadWerks 3 etc .... )

Past years, you found only some 3D engines, now you find a lot , even free advanced, and now lot better, lot more complete and some very advanced also : UT3 SDK, Crysis, Unity 4, Esenthel, free Ogre 3D, LeadWerks, Shiva 3D, C4 engine etc ...

------------

For new 3DGS IDE ,and MOBILE ...
You have strong prooven engines for mobile with optimized 3D features and some very cheap, well ... we don't need to wait 3DGS for that.

If you are interested to keep your customers that's what you make usually, some screenshot of what is going or you show nothing when you have nothing going on ?
Nothing about wed or mobile !

------------------

It's like Vegetation tool , remaining on Planned features from more than two years now, and it's blocked since on 50%.
It's useless ... only to make some people dream ...
It's features based on the hope that some user will make them, like it has been for lot of little features...
(shade C, Physix cloth etc ... )

------------------

WE ARE ON THE FOG ....

Conitec should be lot lot more transparent and show what is really in the works (screenshots , videos) etc ...and just say what is planned in the next months also.
And really make shorter the long Forecast page , and put only what is really working on !

On some other strong 3D engines (Esenthel, Leadwerks 3, Unity 4etc ...) you can see what is done (screenshots, videos etc ...)
There is no visibilty from 2012 on real things, , no vide, no screenshot, only little updates.

For my part i like 3DGS, but i just see it sinking , even more with Zorro now !
Just look at that to see where 3D artists and game makers are going :
games Gallery examples

Today you need 3D artists to come to your engine to make it popular and prooves that it can do it.

Unity , LeadWeks 3D, UT3 etc ... for example have understood it and propose some visual programming modules for pure 3D artists that can even not program anything.

Some game made entirely on a visual scripting tool with Unity ( PlayMaker for 3D artists ):
Alien Breed remake
And it looks and works lot better than lof of 3DGS Showcase games.

I don't say you can't do good games with 3DGS :
SuperCan, Battle For Forgol, Maniac Mansion etc ...
Sometimes it can ask you lot lot more work , and it could lack features otehrs have (NavMesh etc ...)

-------------
Just one simple example : Select create a cloth than change easily the properties under the great Inspector View, is so easy, so fun, so fast to adjust things ... this i can not do it under 3DGS caus it don't have such Inspector window for objects !!


It's a choice perhaps, for programmers like 3DGS, Dark Basic Pro etc ... or for 3D artists also

---------------


If strategy of Conitec will be : new WED interface, some beginning of mobile for A9 , in that case i'll pass and keep A8

I just hope Conitec will make the right decisions, and avoid to let down people on the fog about what is in the making.

They done it during two years without any updates in the past, and today that feels teh same strategy :
-Nothing precise
-Just Wed, Mobile annoucements without any screenshot or video ?
-little 3D update functions
In some other 3D engines teh upadets are VERY BIG and complicated like : Mac support,mobile, new Rendering shader techniques, new terrain system, navmesh system etc , visual programming etc ...
From 2012, no big update, so much little programming functions ... i think the life is easy like that for them







-----------

People don't have to take bad my arguments, i'm not fan on any engine, i use another two for other purposes and features, and it's just some customer feeling from A6 days

And perhaps lot more 3D artist than programmer, so needing lot more and better tools.

So perhaps all my talking is not very appropriate for 3DGS ?
And 3DGS , have a great community members , the forums help, Acknex magazine , documentation ... all that is such a big positive point.
I hope Conitec will continue, even by letting people on the fog (and easy annoucements), and i hope they will improve the tools also, something more easy, fast to use etc ...

Only future will tell ...

--------------------

And i found i'll buy some day Unity 4 Pro, it can be hight price, but not so hight, just some Apple computer price at final like another indie said to me.
And when you see the big team behind, the incredible amount of features of the editor, all the plugins , the easy script and panel templates, the open system ... you pay such price for an engine near AAA ones

I feel i'll have to leave 3DGS and turn the page, and use only up to date engines, even if i used it from old good A6 days.

Some other 3D engines, when you are in front of them, you see directly you need 3D models and textures, the tools are there just waiting for your 3D assets.
Like some complete 3D terrain editor, it just waits your textures, your houses, trees, characters etc ... that's the difference between programmer engines oriented, and mixed ones oriented to 3D artists !

----------------

For now i use it for a retro indie game, and i'm happy with WED caus i don't use terrain for that game.

Who knows if 3DGS could give us a surprise some day ?
That's a year from 2012 (and more) i say we could be surprised ...

And critics, even bad , even on the real life , just awaken you up or make you progress, or realize some things .....

1. Zorro is freeware
2. Conitec is using it

Ok so i was wrong !
I just hope they will concentrate some more in 3DGS Game !