the pope and the limbo

Posted By: ventilator

the pope and the limbo - 04/25/07 16:35

i find it quite funny that the pope recently abolished the limbo for small children. so if unbaptized children die they go to heaven now.

how does this work for born again christians? they don't believe in limbo and purgatory.

i don't really understand what "born again" means. maybe because it's hard to translate to german.

i read that being born again is some kind of encounter with the power of god and an intense conversion experience which leads to a "conscious" relation with christ. only someone who gets born again is a real christian and can get salvation.

i don't think children can have that experience? so what happens if a fetus or baby or child dies? do they go to hell? is this one of the reasons born again christians are so strictly against abortion?

Posted By: Ran Man

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/25/07 17:29

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i don't really understand what "born again" means. maybe because it's hard to translate to german.

Yes, this " born again " thing is in the bible.

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John 3:5-8
5 Jesus replied, "The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven. 7 So don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again. 8 Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."

So, the "baptism" of water is not the key, according to Jesus.
The key is the baptism of the Spirit of God.

I think it's hard to say when or if that happens in a child or baby, since our eyes are blinded from the spiritual at the present time.

Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 06:54

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i don't really understand what "born again" mean

Welcome the club of normal poeple.

In fact its basically tacky gibberish invented by televangelists who want your money.

Posted By: Kinji_2007

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 10:16

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In fact its basically tacky gibberish invented by televangelists who want your money.

Televangelists wrote the Bible? lol Its not wonder some of you guys are atheists. You have no clue concerning things on a spiritual level. At the very least, study and figure out exactly what it is that you do NOT believe in. :-)

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 13:13

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i don't really understand what "born again" means. maybe because it's hard to translate to german.

ventilator it is uncanny how closely your questions resemble those of certain teachers in the Bible(see John 3 for Nicodemus curiosity on the meaning of born again)

Let me give you my own interpretation of "born again".(although I believe it is very supported by scripture)

Born again is a type of ethnic cleansing, a type of rassenhygiene without all of the violence. The basic idea is that mankind is flawed, ALL of mankind (not just Jews, handicapped or any other group).

The idea of Christianity is to kill this flawed group, but not physically kill them, to spiritually kill them. This is symbolized in baptism: the person is held under water and raised up out of the water as a new creature.

So inwardly this old creature is crucified along with Christ, and inwardly a new creature is ressurected with Him.

That is why Christians see themselves as distinct from the rest of the world, because we are literally a new species, we have been re-born inwardly.

Now you are most likely more confused than when you started.

Good luck.

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Welcome the club of normal poeple.

Normal people scare me.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 13:39

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The idea of Christianity is to kill this flawed group, but not physically kill them, to spiritually kill them. This is symbolized in baptism: the person is held under water and raised up out of the water as a new creature.

So inwardly this old creature is crucified along with Christ, and inwardly a new creature is ressurected with Him.

That is why Christians see themselves as distinct from the rest of the world, because we are literally a new species, we have been re-born inwardly.

I for one am definitely more confused now.

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The basic idea is that mankind is flawed, ALL of mankind

This is probably true

, there's no such thing as perfect people, but I think you mean spiritually flawed here, right?

Cheers

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 14:07

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I for one am definitely more confused now.

heh heh. Well the whole doctrine of death, burial, and ressurection with Christ is a very complex thing, I was hoping to create kind of an overview, but Im sure it created more questions than it did answers.Lol. The word "kill" was probably the wrong word to use, and there were other ways to make the point.

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but I think you mean spiritually flawed here, right?

Right, but the physical is dependent on the spiritual so they are still very connected according to Christian belief. The rebirth of the spirit begins immediately after salvation, the rebirth/recreation of the body occurs after physical death.

So no I dont believe that Christians should go around killing the rest of the world because they are flawed and we are not.

However I definitely do believe that the Christian is superior to world in that we are accepted by God, and the world is rejected. But this "superiority" is a moral choice which anyone can make, so it is not an issue of inequality.

Hitler had the right idea in a sense because he wanted to create a perfect race, the Aryans, however he failed to realize that the Aryans were flawed also, which was abundantly proved by his own military mistakes and defeats.

Now because of Christianity, a perfect race has been "created from within" without any need of violence. That is true perfection.

This is what Jesus meant when He preached that "the kingdom of God is at hand" He was talking about a kingdom which would not be a physical kingdom (like Hitler or Cyrus) but an invisible Kingdom.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 14:34

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However I definitely do believe that the Christian is superior to world in that we are accepted by God, and the world is rejected. But this "superiority" is a moral choice which anyone can make, so it is not an issue of inequality.

So we are spiritually flawed based solely on our choices? I don't think believing in God is a moral choice actually, more so an emotional one. But the idea is uuuhmm somewhat contradicting, or at least that's what comes closest to describe it.

Basically you believe we are unequal unless we believe to be something which would make us equal. I'm pretty sure there's no such thing a spiritual perfection and many Christians sin or do bad things actually. Basically you can find the same kind of society when it comes to good and bad people amongst religious people, that's a fact. So, my point and opinion is more centered around the belief that it's ultimately about our actions, not about our deepest beliefs or spiritual side.

Don't you believe your God ultimately judges upon whether or not someone has lived a good life?

Cheers

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 15:13

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Don't you believe your God ultimately judges upon whether or not someone has lived a good life?

No absolutely not, that is not Christianity. Every_other_religion believes that but not Christianity. In Christianity God ultimately judges upon whether or not Jesus had lived a good life not whether or not we had lived a good life.

Thats why Christians are so Jesus_centric. Jesus blood is the substitution for our bad moral choices. Jesus was punished so that we are no longer accountable to God. Now, in the eyes of God, we are a new creation.

There are no actions which this born again phenomena require. Jesus death and blood are a free gift. The only action you must take is the action to accept this free gift.

It is analogous to someone handing out a million dollars as a free gift. There are no set of laws and regulations you must fulfill in order to qualify for the million dollars, it is already yours, there is nothing you have to do to work for it.

However, there is a small thing you need to do, number one you have to believe that the guy is indeed holding a million dollars, for if you dont believe that he is holding the money, you will never take the money.

The other simple thing you must do is take the money. It doesnt no good at all if you dont reach out and take the money.

However, the man offers the money as a free gift. There are no actions which the man requires you to do before you can have it. Most religions require you to do all sorts of things before you qualify for the million. Christianity offers the million to all regardless of their moral actions.

This is the perfect love.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 16:02

Okey, I see.

As far as the analogy goes, it's definitely not the same. I'm very sure I would give the person willing to hand over 1 million the benefit of doubt and believe him and take the money. (I'd probably want to know why he's giving it to me, but in case he replies with 'hey, you either take it or leave it', then I'll take it ...)

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This is the perfect love.

Yes, but then it's flawed when it comes to true perfection. People can be extremely evil in this life (with all kinds of grave consequences for other people on this planet) and still be saved. Perfect love? No, honestly it seems God loves the evil more than he loves the good. Basically God is handing over a blank check to everyone. Okey, I see this is very loving of him/her/it, but abuse is tolerated no matter what.

Do you actually believe in hell? When do people end up there? If Jesus saved us all there's no point in having a hell, infact, there's no point in having a Heaven either. Off course, if everyone's equally loved and no matter what,

Cheers

Posted By: xoNoid

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 16:14

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i find it quite funny that the pope recently abolished the limbo for small children. so if unbaptized children die they go to heaven now.

This was well overdue in Catholic theology but not particularly surprising. The Catholics have being playing down the importance of limbo for a while now and it has not even been officially taught now for a number of years.

I think you can see this as someone trying to clean up the big stuffy Catholic book of doctrine.

Posted By: ventilator

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 16:18

but i still don't know how small children are supposed to accept the million.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 16:23

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but i still don't know how small children are supposed to accept the million.

Well small children or not, I don't see anyone willing to hand it over either actually, so we have to assume someone is, we also have to assume that it will be '1 million' and we will also have to assume that we get it "later" when we believe in it "right now"... Not quite an offer you can't refuse, it smells like a hoax even it were true,

Cheers

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 16:28

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but i still don't know how small children are supposed to accept the million.

well they arent of any accountable age, a just God would bring them to Heaven regardless of their choice.

In this country you are not tried as an adult untill you are 18, I am sure that God has a similar age of accountability which is not a solid age like 18 but since he knows all the hearts of every man, every man has an individual accountability to God.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 16:29

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I don't see anyone willing to hand it over either actually

why not?

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 16:53

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I don't see anyone willing to hand it over either actually

why not?

No, I meant I do not literally see anyone, that wants to make this 'deal' so to speak.

I can't say yes to a question when nobody ever asked.

Supposedly there's a choice, but there's no evidence of choice, no one asking that question, no one carrying a suitcase with a question mark on it and asking the question 'if you believe that I am carrying 1 million dollars in this suitcase, then it will be all yours'.

Cheers

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 17:01

Oh, I thought you meant that nobody would ever give such a gift because nobody would be so kind.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/26/07 17:29

Yeah, actually when reading what I've first wrote there i can understand that it reads like that. Sorry.

As to how kind people can be, some are really really kind and are willing to give away pretty valuable things

, so no I don't really question a God's kindness in this respect either,

Cheers

Posted By: Kinji_2007

Re: the pope and the limbo - 04/27/07 02:40

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Do you actually believe in hell? When do people end up there? If Jesus saved us all there's no point in having a hell, infact, there's no point in having a Heaven either. Off course, if everyone's equally loved and no matter what,

Everyone will stand in judgement. You will to also. Promise. For your comment I say you must study the Word a bit more. Jesus offered a new covenent. He did not save us all.. He saved those of us who wished to be saved. Some of them/you will not ever believe thus His blood will never cover you. You are loved.. the question is: Do you love Him in return?

Not as a scare tactic but I do have one question. If I am right and God exists.. you do not believe and by some chance you do spend eternity in a place called hell that you do not believe in... will you remember my name and the simple thing that I wrote? God is real. Look into it with a open heart. Forget the pope and so called religion. Read the Word and find the answer. If you find any role-model more worty than Jesus Christ then please tell of it.