Kann es Evolution geben?????

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First of all you should say, the Christian comunity I belong to, beleive...
The official position of the Catholic Church, being evolutionism...

No, I said correctly. Any Catholic who believes the Bible is a Christian, if a Catholic does not believe the Bible then I do not know what he is but he is not a Christian.

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I suppose that God extended his curse also to animals and plants , even the ones living in the deep sea or in the middle of the Amazonian forest , which never came in contact with human beings, since it is evident that also their dna is not perfect

Yes he cursed everything everywhere, the entire earth. Here is the entire curse from the Bible:

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And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

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Forget for a while the evidences of the fossils which are clearly in favour of evolution

LOL. I beg to differ.

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Forget also that isolated localities have poorly efficient species
Many australian animals could not survive outside Australia , being quite primitive

Dont get me wrong, I belive that natural selection and survival of the fittest are true facts. I dont dispute that at all. A species will adapt to its environment based upon its existing gene pool. The question is: How did the gene pool get there to begin with?

The Christian belief is that God created creatures after their own kind :

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Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

So there is no problem that creatures in australia might not survive anywhere else because they have used their existing gene pool to adapt to their environments.

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An initial small protuberation was, for sure, of no use as far as locomotion is concerned but it could work as a sort of radiator for temperature control

This is where the fossil record is severely lacking. There are no fossils showing clearcut transitionals. There actually should be MORE transitional fossils than their are fully formed archetypicals.

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Do you mean, that God has programmed our DNA to get worse and worse, step by step ?
If so, do you realize that he commited the worst crime ?
Adam and Eva , who commited the sin remained almost perfect people while their innocent sons must suffer for any kind of deseases

Crime is judged relative to our moral framework perhaps, but relative to God's moral framework then the judgement fits the crime.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 13:36

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Wouldnt you agree that your view of God as a killer and mass murderer is a little extreme?

We dont see "killing" and "murder" as the same thing. Basically the difference is that "killing" is sometimes necessary as in the case of war or justice, murder is unwarranted slaying of innocents.

The difference is an important distinction.

Anybody with children would not hesitate to kill someone who threatened the lives of their children. Yet killing in this manner would never be considered murder.

As I said to Alberto. The jsutice system of God is only misunderstood by humanity because we are viewing it through the lenses of our own moral framework. We have no idea what Divine justice might be.

Therefore no, I dont see God's justice as extreme. Especially since He has given everyone a choice to save themselves.

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 13:42

There is only one excuse for killing, this is self-defense. And for mass-murder there is no excuse at all. A God that kills his own creation makes no sense to me. This is not only immoral but also un-Christian. Look in the bible what Jesus said about turn the other cheek.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 13:45

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If you understand the bible literally than you must understand how the stories were meant. They are not meant to depict God as a killer, but are tales with moral and poetic background. Of course they are meant literally but are meant as stories and not as historic record. I mean come on, not even people back then believed that Adam and Eve were real people. God cursed and killed no one

Jesus referenced these stories on multiple occasions as literal events, and so did Paul, Peter and John in their epistles. Its is clear through reading the new testament that the Christian church believed all the events of the Old testament. If the founders of the Christian church believed literally then the modern church should also believe it...that is if they want to be called Christian.

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 13:49

If you believe this then show me the place in the bible where Jesus said that God killed people.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 13:52

"
No, I said correctly. Any Catholic who believes the Bible is a Christian, if a Catholic does not believe the Bible then I do not know what he is but he is not a Christian."

Ok I take not that in your opinion, the Pope is not a Christian , even though he is not definitly considered a modernist
I suppose that you mean that Bible must be alwayes understood litteraly
Take a breath before answering
You might come across some embarassing situations

" Yes he cursed everything everywhere, the entire earth. Here is the entire curse from the Bible:"

Wow, Gengis Khan ordered to kill all the living species ( spiders included ) to take a revenge on his son's death during the Sarmacanda siege

" Dont get me wrong, I belive that natural selection and survival of the fittest are true facts. I dont dispute that at all. A species will adapt to its environment based upon its existing gene pool. The question is: How did the gene pool get there to begin with? "

Agreed ( are you surprised ?

)
This is the reason why a driven evolutionism is the only serious theory
Even though I beleive that sooner or later science will raze to ground also this last castle of Theism , I must admit that this is just a gut feeling
Actually evolutionism can not explain the primordial form of life

"Crime is judged relative to our moral framework perhaps, but relative to God's moral framework then the judgement fits the crime."

It is an unfair battle , actually you have a big advantage over us
We must explain everything even the small details while you can evoke the
" mistery of faith " to justtify any absurdities

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 13:59

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There is only one excuse for killing, this is self-defense. And for mass-murder there is no excuse at all.

Funny. I have debated with people who seemed to want to kill me just because they couldnt win an argument.

However I understand your point, and I respect your choice to have a different opinion than me. However, true Christianity does not hold your viewpoint at all.

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A God that kills his own creation makes no sense for me

Of course it makes no sense to you, you dont understand the difference between "killing" and "murder" like I understand it. That is not you fault or my fault, its just that people think fundamentally different. It is a sad but true occurence throughout civilization. It is the precise reason why wars will never end.

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 14:08

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you dont understand the difference between "killing" and "murder" like I understand it. That is not you fault or my fault, its just that people think fundamentally different.

I beg to differ, I dont share this viewpoint of total moral relativity. Killing innocent women and children without self-defense is always murder in all societies of the earth and no matter how different people think.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 14:33

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Killing innocent women and children without self-defense

Im glad that you think your looking out for the innocent women and children, but in denying the justice of God you have essentially removed the proper consequences for those actions which have occured throughout the years.

For example, if you believe that God should not "murder" his "innocent" creation. Then what should he do with pedophiles in the afterlife? Arent pedophiles part of the innocent creation? should he let them into heaven? Or how about people who have REALLY killed innocent women and children, people like Idi Amin, or the Nazis or Pol Pot? or rapists? Or all the bad people?

There have been many terrible people in our civilization that have done many terrible things, if you deny Divine Justice, then basically you deny all the victims their due justice.

And what about your own personal sin? Do you think your a good man? Every man will have to answer for the things he has done.

Thats why I talked about moral relativity, we cannot compare our morality with Gods. God has no sin whatsoever, whereas we have sin.

God gives everyone a choice, so if someone does not choose Christ, they are no longer innocent, and they deserve the judgement of God.

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 15:00

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God gives everyone a choice, so if someone does not choose Christ, they are no longer innocent, and they deserve the judgement of God.

Do you seriously believe that it's ok to kill innocent people just because they are not Christian?

What about you, then? I would not consider you a Christian with such a belief, so would it be ok to kill you? And on the other hand, you declared me not a Christian because I don't share your extreme bible interpretation, so you think its ok to kill me?

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 15:52

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Do you seriously believe that it's ok to kill innocent people just because they are not Christian?

Well yes of course, according to the Bible you will indeed go to hell if you are not a Christian.

But as I said:
1)its not killing, its God's judgement for sin
2)its not innocent people because we are all under sin, and we all have a chance to repent
3)we are talking about the afterlife, not God striking someone dead with a lightning bolt.

That is the Christian belief, Im sorry if you do not agree.

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And on the other hand, you declared me not a Christian because I don't share your extreme bible interpretation, so you think its ok to kill me?

No its not just a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with someone's interpretation. Its a matter of the sin in your life. even small sins like hatred, and wraths, and slander, and lies, jealousy and bitterness. All of those sins, left unrepented and unconfessed will send you to hell unless you seek forgiveness from Jesus.

Really it is the condition of your heart, all the blackness and evil which exists in your heart. The hate, the anger, the bitterness. None of it is according to the law of love. All laws can be summed up by the law which states "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" If you dont have love in your heart, but all you have is hatred, you will go to hell. Thats why you need Jesus.

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What about you, then? I would not consider you a Christian with such a belief, so would it be ok to kill you?

Gods judgement applies to everyone, male and female, me or you, whomever, God is no respecter of persons. But this applies to the afterlife, it has nothing to do with you killing me here on earth, or God sending lightning bolts. Although there have been cases where God has actually caused the deaths of people, like the flood and earthquakes. So I suppose it is possible, but not probable.

I actually look forward to my own death because I know Ill be going to heaven. So death is no big deal for me. I know I also have sins, but because I repent of my sins and I believe in Jesus to forgive my sins when I ask then I know I am going the right direction.

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 16:12

Well, of course you're free to believe that it is ok to kill innocent people just because they are not Christian. But I'm sorry to say that your belief has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.

Christianity is a religion of love, not of intolerance and hate. I think only few today have such a hate towards other religions that they want to punish a different belief with killing or torture in hell. Christians don't justify killing innocents or torturing them in hell. The 9/11 terrorists might have agreed with you but Christians won't.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 16:24

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I think only few today have such a hate towards other religions that they want to punish a different belief with killing or torture in hell.

really? I find that hard to believe. I think you will find that in spite of what some people might say, the reality is that their own hearts are full of anger, hatred, torture, and killing.

From the experience of my life, I have been unlucky enough to see what really exists in the hearts of some people. If you think that only a few have hatred then I can only hope you can continue to live in your fantasy world. Because I see what happens to people who are driven by hate and pride every day, even in this most civilized America.

You can wear a suit and tie, you can go to church, you can even be "nice" and politically correct and call yourselef a Christian. But Jesus knows whats in your heart, and you will be judged by God accordingly. As evidenced by the Master when He said:

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Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

You can say that you dont have sin, and you dont have hate, but God alone knows whats in your heart. Thats why we need Jesus.

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Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 16:32

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From the experience of my life, I have been unlucky enough to see what really exists in the hearts of some people.

Look into your own heart. It is you who's trying to justify killing innocents. Other people are normally not "full of anger, hatred, torture, and killing". Especially not if they are Christians and I don't mean members of your sect.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 16:51

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Look into your own heart.

I do, I already admitted that I have sins.

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It is you who's trying to justify killing innocents.

I never said that, that is your gross misinterpretation of what I said.

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Other people are normally not "full of anger, hatred, torture, and killing". Especially not if they are Christians - and I don't mean members of your sect. ]

Oh I get it, so your saying that you are this great loving group of Christians unlike my "sect" huh? Ok, if you want to continue believing this lie go for it, but if you actually want to look at what the Bible says we are ALL under sin:

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Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

So I find it interesting that you and other normal people(not evil people from my "sect") never have any sin in their hearts? fascinating. You must have some superior breeding, huh?

But I keep forgetting, the true "Christians" like the ones your trying to represent here dont seem to accept any part of the Bible. Tell me then, what qualifies someone to be a Christian? Do you qualify just because you call yourself one?

Are you a Christian because you are a white European?

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 17:07

I think I am a Christian when I accept God and the 10 commandments and the words of Jesus. And when you say its ok to kill people because of their belief and even claim your God did that then we obviously dont share the same religion. Its as simple as that.

"You shall not kill." Very clear and no room for interpretation, or do you really think God violated his own commandments and cursed and killed his own creation?

We all are not free of sin. Thats why Jesus died for us. For all of us, and what makes you think he died only for your sect and all other people go to hell?

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 17:44

Tobias

Everybody here is on your side but Bible is on NITRO'S side

Have you ever read the letter exchanges between Erasmus and Luther about "predestination" ?
Erasmus, Tobias (I suppose) , all conitec's member and myself think that predestination is a mostruosity

But Luther said and Nitro ( I suppose ) says

Dear Erasmus , Tobias , Conitec's members and Alberto... read the Bible

The point is that they are right

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 19:29

Please read some more of the discussion. My issue was not that the bible is wrong but that NITRO77 has a narrow and wrong bible interpretation that propagates intolerance and moral relativity in contradiction to Christianity.

The bible is the basis of Christianity but there are thousands of different interpretations and all claim to be literal and correct. The bible was inspired but of course not literally dictated and proofread by God. The bible stories and legends about Adam and Eve and Moses are meant to transfer Christian ideas but they also transfer human thinking and human morale of that time. They must be understood in that context. It is grotesque to assume that God really cursed or killed people.

This is the position of both the Catholic and Protestant churches and I think they have some authority about the bible. You can read about the bible, I dont know English websites but here is a Catholic website with a good introduction in the bible: http://www.joerg-sieger.de

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 20:17

Well I am not a biblistic expert but I feel that you , along with many other religious guys, pretend ignoring , even if in good faith , what Bible really states

I repeat , read Erasmus \ Luther discussion about predestinations

Erasmus tries to convince Luther using common sense arguments
Luther does not even try to counter attach on a logic or human like basis , it would be impossible , of course
It simply says :
" Erasmus, read the bible"
It is the same kind of answers which I and other people have got from NITRO
That said, I dont mean that Nitro and the fundamentalists are not good persons but for sure they are consistent people regardless of the consequences , while progessive Christians want, in my opinion :

"To wear two pair of shoes at the same time "

I dont know wether it makes sense also in Eglish but I suppose you got what I mean

Posted By: Tobias

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 20:32

Yes I understand what you mean and while I dont know the Erasmus / Luther discussion about predestination I know that Luther had a lot other wrong ideas, for instance he was antisemitist. But he was a fallible human so who cares today about some of his strange ideas? This does not make his other ideas wrong.

The bible was written by hundreds of authors and some had strange ideas about killing women and children, does this make the bible wrong? No, the bible is just meant to give us insight not only in God but also in human thinking of that time.

The wrong interpretation is to confuse the intentions of its writers with the intentions of God. If you mix both you just make God a human, and not a very good one. But God can be clearly understood from the bible and if you read it right you can see the difference between divine ideas and human thinking. The bible contains both divine and human parts and this is right so because religion also consists of divine and human parts. If you neglect any part you misunderstand the bible and if you neglect the divine part totally and see only the human part, you end up with such a bizarre misinterpretation like NITRO77.

Posted By: achaziel

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 20:43

evolution and creation are two completely different things. i heard a very good explanation of that, but, unfortunately, i can't really remember what it said

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 06/30/07 20:50

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There are no fossils showing clearcut transitionals. There actually should be MORE transitional fossils than their are fully formed archetypicals.

Yes there are
Inner ear , for example
Fossils clearly shows that auditive system is an evolution of the jaw
A simple vibrating thin blade attached to the jaw, at the beginning, but capable of trasmitting some signal to the animal

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/01/07 15:13

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There are no fossils showing clearcut transitionals. There actually should be MORE transitional fossils than their are fully formed archetypicals.

You're right and really these exist all around you, just in your view that evidence apparently 'is not good enough', it's still evidence though. Their are dozens and dozens of species with rudimentary morphological features for example wales their rudimentary hind limbs.

Cheers

Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/01/07 21:33

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Tobias, dont get angry...its not an extreme interpretation its a literal interpretation. Wouldnt you agree?

The Christian method of Biblical interpretation is simply to read the Bible for what it says. It is not a method of interpretation at all. I read it literally. Its very simple.

Anyone who does not accept the Bible at face value is not a Christian. Thats also very simple.

As the Pope and the Catholic Church have accepted evolution for some times, according to you they are not Christian? Pretty extreme I'd say. On the other hand, maybe YOU are not Christian, but some kind of lunatic.

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/01/07 21:38

Luther was in no way a literalist in the sense, that he simply took the Bible and believed everything in it. Actually he had a very personal taste and strong opinion about the different parts.

Here are some Luther-quotes:

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"I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much."

"The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible."

"Therefore St. James� epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it"

"About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic�I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep�My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1, �You shall be my witnesses.� Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely"

web page

The dogmatic approach, that everything in the Bible is scientific or historic fact is a genuine American invention and in my view a defense mechanism and strategy of survival against the sceptical and materialist mood in the late 19th / early 20th century, when suddenly everything was put into question.

Unfortunately it leads into countless contradictions and worse: intolerance, war, misery.

A more serious approach of course makes a difference between God (infallible) and man-made scriptures and attempts in general.

There are countless hints in the Bible, that one must read it in a spiritual way, searching for the meaning behind the words and in the end for the abstract meaning itself.

This is far from simple, there is no simple rule of thumb: one text is a metaphor another one a clear commandment etc.

If people are now dicussing the Genesis as a materialist or scientific description, they are in danger to miss or downplay the spiritual meaning of the text.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/01/07 23:27

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As the Pope and the Catholic Church have accepted evolution for some times, according to you they are not Christian? Pretty extreme I'd say. On the other hand, maybe YOU are not Christian, but some kind of lunatic.

It doesnt matter to me what Luther or the Pope or anyone else says. Jesus Himself, as well as the the other apostles and paul accepted the Old Testament at literal fact as is cross referenced in their own writings. They are the founders of Christianity, so therefore they would decide the doctrine.

Also labels matter very little to me. Christian means "Christ follower", and I follow the teachings of Christ, not the Pope, and Christ accepted Noah and creation, as well as the reality of hell, satan, the afterlife,and salvation.

My interpretation of the Bible is plain and literal, if you want to call me a lunatic, or unchristian, stupid, or whatever that is your perogative. I am glad at least that you say what is on your mind without pretense.

Posted By: jcl

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/02/07 07:12

It is unknown what Jesus believed about the Old Testament. All his statements in the bible were selected by Paul, who probably indeed believed that Adam and Eve really existed and God really killed all those people.

However today the bible is usually interpreted in its historical context. Omitting this context causes some more or less ridiculous misinterpretations. From an atheist's viewpoint of course, it's a good thing when people who call themselves Christians worship a killer God and reject science when it contradicts the bible. This contributes to opening people's eyes about the nature of religion, and is probably a cause of the current receding of Christian faith in the US.

The discussion went far away from the original topic evolution, but I think this topic was already exhaustively treated in the "Science and Creation" thread on this forum.

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/02/07 11:47

The problems come up, because people believe or wish, that the truth is simple and can - more or less easily and once and for all - be defined with words.
This is the basic assumption for people, who think, that God (mysterious infallible Spirit) and Bible (words, written down by non-perfect humans) are more or less identical or at least the belief, that knowledge of old scripture is identical with knowledge about the intentions of the living God.

There is not even inner logic, that supports the claim of biblical infallibility, because St Paul and others themselves did not claim to be perfect. They expressed a desire for perfection as a distant goal, not as an attribute, they already possessed.

And it is funny, that many atheists are taking this false belief at face value, when they also confuse God with the Bible, claiming, that there can be no God, because the people, who lived thousands of years ago were unable to deliver a simple "user manual" of eternal value.

But God != Bible.

God is love, God is Spirit, God is Truth.

Well, at least these are some basic ideas.
The search for God is just a more or less humble attempt, to understand the whole. And given our enormous (and potentially destructive) worldly power this is more important now, than ever before.
Serious religion should be an attempt to define and eventually redefine and find words for divine laws.

God can�t be touched by human opinions, certainly not by those, who try to reduce Him or confuse Him, with human attempts.

Science can only bring us closer to God, it can�t contradict God.

This is btw. confirmed in the Bible time and again.

The Bible doesn�t say: Worship me, the book, that you can touch and see.

And even the most "conservative" passage, that I was able to find in the gospels does not tell us to follow the scripture like slaves or robots:

5:17 �Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place.
5:19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now up to here it is like the confirmation for the "literalists" ...

But it goes on:

5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

(from the gospel of Matthew)

In other words: We are always allowed to do better and if someone knows Jesus own attitude towards the scribes and the Pharisees, there is even a necessity to go beyond ...
The important thing is: we should be guided by the Holy Spirit, which - according to the gospel of John is a Spirit of truth.

And if someone knows and understands the supreme importance of the Holy Spirit, there should no longer be any doubt:

12:31 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Strong words! While we are allowed to go beyond the righteousness of the "experts in law" (as expressed in the Bible) we will be in great trouble if we decide to go against the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of truth.

St Paul expresses it like this:

Galatians 5:18: But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The truth makes us free!

For me it is simply like this:
Our knowledge and mankinds collective experience isn�t static, it is constantly growing. And if we want to be guided by the Spirit of truth we can not simply ignore this.

Jesus was aware of this, he said (according to John):

16:12 �I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

So even Jesus, our Messiah, Saviour, etc., even He did not say:

I told you everything, all you need is the Bible ...

It is very important to search for the living God, to recognize the importance of love and truth and to keep in mind, that God is great!

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/02/07 14:33

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And it is funny, that many atheists are taking this false belief at face value, when they also confuse God with the Bible, claiming, that there can be no God, because the people, who lived thousands of years ago were unable to deliver a simple "user manual" of eternal value.

Well, it's not so much about the bible as a user manual, but more so about descriptions of events which either can't have happened or simply contradict other events. This is both confusing and suspicious, because obviously they can't both be right.

If the bible is wrong about a lot of things, why would it still be right about God? Why would it still be right about Jesus? I think those two questions are perfectly fine to ask when indeed you notice flaws in a scripture people claim is 'the one and only truth'.

I think that although most atheists indeed tend to take both the bible and god in one hand, that we do understand that it's not entirely the same.

Still if all Christians at one point say, 'okey fine, you've proven the Bible is wrong or at least has many errors and some big contradictions', then they will still say 'ha, but ya didn't really disprove our God!'.
In my opinion eventhough they're right in saying this, all they really are doing is back paddling, desperately trying to hold on to something ...

I think ID is a good example of were that kind of behavior leads to.

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/02/07 17:40

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Well, it's not so much about the bible as a user manual, but more so about descriptions of events which either can't have happened or simply contradict other events. This is both confusing and suspicious, because obviously they can't both be right.

Well, what obviously should be avoided is an approach, where you take the next best quote from the Bible and say: "That�s it, this must be the will of God", or "It�s written in the Bible, so it must have really happened".

How would a judge determine the "truth", if there is a lawyer and a prosecutor, who usually describe the same event in a very different way ...
The answer: It�s a lot of work.
You have to look at the evidence, you have to compare, you are by no way limited to the Bible. Avoid preconceptions and personal taste, try to be a good judge, imagine the context.

For me it would be much more suspicious, if everything would be "polished" and "perfect". I believe, that God was gradually discovered by REAL human beings at a REAL time and space. A later prophet can compare, what was revealed to him with his predecessors and can build upon the knowledge and see, if it still makes sense etc.

Only the individual human being, that reads the text can gradually decide, which attempts are better and which attempts are false.

And btw: If I assume, that God is the Spirit of everything, it is only logical to assume, that such a Spirit is big and not easy to discover or understand.

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If the bible is wrong about a lot of things, why would it still be right about God? Why would it still be right about Jesus?

Well is it right about God? In my view: sometimes it is, sometimes it isn�t.
But God - over many years - became a certainty for me not only because of the Bible, but because of everything. I wasn�t religious for thirty years of my life, until something happened, which is described in the Bible like this:

Isaiah 65:1
I made myself available to those who did not ask for me;
I appeared to those who did not look for me.

God revealed His spirit to me - an absolute ignorant to all religious stuff - in seven days in 1997.
Once you have found a Spirit, that is absolute, perfect, good, indestructible, free from contradiction it must be God.

This Spirit btw. is inside everyone - it is your soul - and it wants to be discovered. In a mystic condition, there is some kind of identity.

The search for oneself and the search for God are one and the same.

If I wouldn�t have found this Spirit in the Bible, I would certainly have a less favorable opinion about this book.

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Still if all Christians at one point say, 'okey fine, you've proven the Bible is wrong or at least has many errors and some big contradictions', then they will still say 'ha, but ya didn't really disprove our God!'.
In my opinion eventhough they're right in saying this, all they really are doing is back paddling, desperately trying to hold on to something ...

Nope, I think, they are either less concerned about the Bible than you and me, or they will like so many other people simply ignore, what they don�t like.
I mean, come on - who does really believe in a version of God, who tells His people to go out for some mass-murder.

Everyone with an inch of grain will assume, that Moses, or whoever received such a message was eventually misled by a different Spirit and one should also keep in mind, that certain passages reflect a generally more archaic athmosphere.

There is a famous Sura in the Qur�an btw, where Mohammed received a message, which he later attributed to Satan, and which was consequently removed from the book: the famous Satanic Verses.

Try to imagine, you�re a prophet and live in 900 BC and all your tribesmen have just escaped from the stone-age, you probably will not discuss with them about the latest divine trends, such as equal rights for chickens, you will start to tell them, that eventually they do not need to murder themselves all the time and such stuff.
An elegant solution is: Thou shall not kill! - because it leaves room for future updates and maybe one day even chickens will be included in the divine covenant.

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/02/07 21:02

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show me where jesus himself says that there is no evolution

Jesus

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Mar 13:19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.

John

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Rev 10:6 and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:

Paul

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Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Peter's thoughts on angels, Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah

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2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;

Those were the four central figures of the early church, clearly they believed in creation. I honestly feel that the question of whether Jesus and the early fathers believed in evolution is a little ridiculous, but I provided references nevertheless.

These I drug up with a simple keyword search of the king james Bible:"creation"

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/02/07 22:19

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Try to imagine, you�re a prophet and live in 900 BC and all your tribesmen have just escaped from the stone-age, you probably will not discuss with them about the latest divine trends, such as equal rights for chickens, you will start to tell them, that eventually they do not need to murder themselves all the time and such stuff.
An elegant solution is: Thou shall not kill! - because it leaves room for future updates and maybe one day even chickens will be included in the divine covenant.

All the more evidence for the fact that the content of the bible isn't divine in origin at all. It's also pretty evident that the content has evolved and changed over time too, which is somewhat ironic in a way.

Besides, when I'm thinking about it, what's divine for cultures from the past is not what we think of as divine in most cases. For example the Faraos of Egypt, the Emperor of China, Emperor of Japan and also Kings in certain other countries once were believed to be real Gods. I really think that whole concept has simply changed to something more abstract.

The bible seems to have been written using a clever psychological formula which leaves just enough room for discussion for it to be either 'always right because of the vagueness and room for different interpretations' or 'God did it and you can't prove he did not, thus we're still right'.

I'm sure religious people know of the following line; "If God is almighty, then can he make a rock so big and heavy that even he can't lift it anymore?".

Well, it's rather obvious that if God c�n do that, that he isn't almighty, since otherwise he would have been able to lift the rock, on the other hand if he can't make it, he's not almighty either.

My point is, the bible is full of these kind of psychological and philosophical traps, but far less obvious than the stone example and off course in favor of God instead of against it.

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And btw: If I assume, that God is the Spirit of everything, it is only logical to assume, that such a Spirit is big and not easy to discover or understand.

You're making assumptions based upon assumptions, in my book that's not the right way of using logic when it comes to truth. Who knows, maybe God is a little child in terms of physical shape and intelligence? Think of it, there's a lot people assume simply because they have always assumed. (Gods have supernatural powers, Gods are almighty, etc. etc. eventhough there's no proof of such attributes linked to God(s) )

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I believe, that God was gradually discovered by REAL human beings at a REAL time and space.

What makes you think so? Also, isn't it a bit strange that we can't see, feel or hear God or any results of God's actions if there even are any?

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/03/07 10:28

You made a lot of interesting points, my answers unfortunately can�t be simple and short.

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All the more evidence for the fact that the content of the bible isn't divine in origin at all.

Why? I just acknowledged something, that every historic and archaeologist will tell you too: that there was an evolution in human cultures. Evolution means: a gradual change.
It is only logical, to assume, that priests and prophets had to take into account the existing moral framework of a REAL human society in a REAL time at least to some extent.
You can�t change everything immediately , like in a fairytale, you can only work for gradual improvements.

A prophet is like a link between the relative worldly world and the absolute divine world.

He has to take into account both, the real situation and the absolute divine messages, that he receives.

Now this doesn�t mean, that he becomes a hypocrite, who compromises on the divine message and tells the people, what they want to hear. The prophets, that are mentioned in the Bible were often not really popular at their time, for the reason, that they told people the inconvenient truth.

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It's also pretty evident that the content has evolved and changed over time too, which is somewhat ironic in a way.

It is only realistic and logical. The Bible has a lot of different authors, who lived at different times, had different functions.

It is very important to keep in mind the historic context and at least try to see the stories through the eyes of the people who lived at ancient times.

King David for example had very different responsibilities than Jesus. God, at king Davids time was more or less accepted as a special God of Israel, the other tribes had their own Gods or idols.

But the universalist idea, that God is the God of everyone, who believes in him or even the God of all mankind was already mentioned in the story of Abraham.

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Besides, when I'm thinking about it, what's divine for cultures from the past is not what we think of as divine in most cases. For example the Faraos of Egypt, the Emperor of China, Emperor of Japan and also Kings in certain other countries once were believed to be real Gods. I really think that whole concept has simply changed to something more abstract.

It�s certainly linked. The concept of an abstract, invisible monotheistic God just does acknowledge, that nothing in this world is perfect, especially politicians sometimes turn out to be dumb and evil, so it doesn�t make sense to worship them.

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The bible seems to have been written using a clever psychological formula which leaves just enough room for discussion for it to be either 'always right because of the vagueness and room for different interpretations' or 'God did it and you can't prove he did not, thus we're still right'.

I see it as a variety of attempts to understand the most difficult thing, that one can imagine. These attempts are described in the Bible and other religious books.

These attempts still continue.

If you take a simple all-or-nothing or true-false approach like in programming, the living God will always remain a mystery.

But would we reject modern medicine, just because the methods of some doctors in ancient time turned out to be wrong or even dangerous to health?

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My point is, the bible is full of these kind of psychological and philosophical traps, but far less obvious than the stone example and off course in favor of God instead of against it.

It is an attempt to understand everything, also the tragic stuff, the injustice ...
Of course the basic message is: if you�re a good guy and worship God, everything will be fine, but the Bible is filled with very serious reflections.
Just look at the story of Job for example, there is a "happy end", but it doesn�t sound very credible, more like the sugar, that you give to the bitter medicine.
I agree with Nitro, when he said, that our sense of justice is different than Gods sense of justice.
Usually, simply because we are selfish or tribalists, but God is the God of the "other" too and I think sometimes He has to restore the balance, if human beings get it (once again) terribly wrong.

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You're making assumptions based upon assumptions, in my book that's not the right way of using logic when it comes to truth.

You need everything, logical thinking - like in philosophy - is important, but just a part of it.
Wisdom, associative thinking and a general awareness, based on experience is more important.
The most basic and important thing is: Love in a spiritual sense.
This is the basic mystic experience: that you feel linked and connected with everything and everyone, that you become aware of the beauty and the infinite value of life ...

And about the "assumptions based upon assumptions" aspect: it�s called "inner logic"

But concerning pure logic: Evil can appear very logical too.
Martin Heidegger for example, a very smart German philosopher was for some time attracted by the Nazi ideology.

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Who knows, maybe God is a little child in terms of physical shape and intelligence?

This is, how the mystics and artists might experience Him.

Moments of inspiration, which are so important for artists have nothing to do with logic or consciousness, but they have very much to do with awareness, being open, being open also for something crazy, something new ...

The mystic condition is very similar to this.

I mean, some people imagine a "message of God" still as something, where God appears in a thunderstorm with lots of lightnings, and in the end a stone falls from the sky with the ten commandments.
Such descriptions are there for the worldly minded, and for those, who need special FX in order to be impressed. But in a metaphorical sense, they are often true.
One should keep in mind, that our language was not so abstract in ancient times, the people simply had no words for complicated psychological or spiritual stuff and they also wanted, that normal people could understand them.

Somewhere in the Bible Jesus also says something like this and a famous quote by Picasso comes to my mind:

"When I was a child, I could draw like Raphael, but it took me a lifetime to learn to draw like a child."

Henri Matisse, another painter, put it like this: "Creation begins with vision. The artist has to look at everything as though seeing it for the first time, like a child".

I think, the soul is in many ways, what we start with (spiritually), then we learn to separate and define ourselves, develop an "Ego", cosciousness, attitudes, opinions, theories ...

Mystics and prophets believe, that opinions and most theories and ideologies are more or less reflections of worldly desires or intellectual games and in order to become aware of the absolute, divine truth one needs a mystic experience, which then is like an absolute "point of reference".

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/03/07 15:53

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Why? I just acknowledged something, that every historic and archaeologist will tell you too: that there was an evolution in human cultures. Evolution means: a gradual change.

Off course, but why don't you see that at first people believed in 'nature' Gods, then after that some cultures began to believe in a whole pantheon of Gods (like in Greece or Egypt) and now it's just one God. Who's right? Even if this evolution of culture is normal (and I don't disagree with that btw), all can't be right and you can't distinguish the faulty from the correct either, because there's no reference... Basically these prophets and priest simply wrote down what they thought, not what necessarily was right, that's what you've more or less admitted.

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It is only logical, to assume, that priests and prophets had to take into account the existing moral framework of a REAL human society in a REAL time at least to some extent.

All the more reason for me to assume they did it only for power, not for giving people the truth. Otherwise they would have said "okey, you're not going to like it, but this is how it is", if indeed it was a 'inconvenient truth', because looking at the bible I think it's not very inconvenient at all actually (heaven, eternal life, prayers, all in all big promises etc.).

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You can�t change everything immediately , like in a fairytale, you can only work for gradual improvements.

A prophet is like a link between the relative worldly world and the absolute divine world.

Problem is that there's no proof of such a link at all. Prophets claim these things in order to be able to convince people, again for power and influence. It's clever talk to keep the masses' attention.

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He has to take into account both, the real situation and the absolute divine messages, that he receives.

Sure, if he wants to have any influence at all, he has to, still this doesn't justify any 'messing with the divine messages' and then I'm off course assuming they had any.

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Now this doesn�t mean, that he becomes a hypocrite, who compromises on the divine message and tells the people, what they want to hear.

I don't get this. Prophets are allowed to convince people of anything they like? Come on, that's downright silly if you claim they're actually telling 'truths' and give us 'divine messages'. *shakes head*

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The prophets, that are mentioned in the Bible were often not really popular at their time, for the reason, that they told people the inconvenient truth.

This makes sense, but probably not because of 'inconvenient truths', archeology has already shown that the image of overly barbaric people is wrong. Perhaps the people from back then already thought Jesus was a magician and other prophets were frauds too? Churches (and imho one may assume also the earlier prophets) have a long long record of exploiting people's faith for their own benefit.

If you want to control people, best thing to do is n�t to tell them everything and keep some knowledge so you can constantly outsmart them or give them more if they do not listen to you anymore ... It's simple psychology,

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But would we reject modern medicine, just because the methods of some doctors in ancient time turned out to be wrong or even dangerous to health?

Wooah, wait a minute, both are obviously not comparable, because modern medicine really 'works', you can't say that of God...

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/04/07 00:05

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Wooah, wait a minute, both are obviously not comparable, because modern medicine really 'works', you can't say that of God...

That�s a little bit black & white, isn�t it?

Of course many mistakes are made in modern medicine, just ask grandma, she can tell you lots of stories, where she had a specific problem, contacted a doctor, and he made a wrong diagnosis, then she turned to the next doctor who told her, that the first doctor was wrong ...

Most of your arguments about God are based on the assumption, that if the Bible or certain preachers, prophets are not 100 percent infallible, there can�t be God.

But if you apply the same standard to medicine, you would have to reach the conclusion, that Medicine wouldn�t make sense, which would be obvious nonsense.

But, when it comes to religion, you only see the negative examples, while medicine "really works".

The truth about medicine: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn�t work.
The truth about religion: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn�t work.

It�s not all black & white, especially not, when we deal with complex systems.

The Bible does explicitly acknowledge, that there can be false prophets, that people can believe in a wrong way etc.

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Problem is that there's no proof of such a link at all.

No there is no proof. It is up to the audience of the prophet, to decide if they want to believe him. The normal thing seems to be, that people believe in the false prophets and crucify or throw stones at the true prophets.

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Prophets claim these things in order to be able to convince people, again for power and influence. It's clever talk to keep the masses' attention.

Actually the descriptions in the Bible and elsewhere show a very different picture. The prophets usually appear as social outsiders, their message is not one, that the people would want to hear. I could give you countless examples.

People, who want power and influence usually make arrangements with existing powers, tell the people nice things.

Believe it or not, but true prophets were usually not popular.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/04/07 02:35

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The truth about medicine: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn�t work.
The truth about religion: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn�t work.

When someone lies on the operation table having a life-threatening problem and you prevent the doctors from doing their job and you start praying to your God then that person will die. Simple. If doctors do their job correctly and the person at the operation table had a chance to survive to begin with, then modern medicine turns out to be much much much more effective than praying to God. Really, it's the modern medicine saving lives, not some God and it's not just my opinion, because like I said, simply prevent the doctors from doing their job and that person will die... It's more black and white than you think, because no modern medicine means an extremely decreased chance of survival, depending on the injury or operation needed the person will die in about 99.5% of all cases. Well, I don't suppose you'll claim that some God is responsible for the survival of this 0.5% that might survive not being treated at all ... Like I said before, that's no proof of divine intervention, but more so pure 'chance'.

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The normal thing seems to be, that people believe in the false prophets and crucify or throw stones at the true prophets.

This is an assumption of course, because perhaps people were right about Jesus in being a false prophet. It's merely the fact that you've more or less decided to determine Jesus as being a true prophet that this *would be true*. Simply put, you're biased.

That's okey, but it's not proof for Jesus being a true prophet. (eventhough I have to admit he did say some very clever and true things,... that is, if he really even said those things..)

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Believe it or not, but true prophets were usually not popular.

They were not popular in the eyes of the rulers at that time, because they simply tried to get a piece of the pie in terms of power.
I think Jesus wasn't a threat because he preached differently, he was a threat because apparently so many people started to rebel against the rulers, he basically caused an uprising and had to pay for it with his life. (In fact I believe the only way how Jesus could function as a powerful key figure in the religion started by him later on would be to a.) declare him 'the Son of God' (there was a vote on this) and b.) they had to invent the whole 'risen from the grave' story and perhaps they also needed the miracle stories too to enforce point a., but then again perhaps these miracles happened, but in reality were magician tricks.)

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People, who want power and influence usually make arrangements with existing powers, tell the people nice things.

Okey, then what about the countless of promises Jesus made about heaven? What about the things he said about equal rights for the poor, hookers and what more? What about his claim that 'God loves all'? I can give you a pretty long list about things that are pretty nice for certain people. If you want to control the masses, try to get the biggest group behind you. That's usually the poor... again reason for me to suspect that Jesus was a power-greedy guy. You don't do tell people those kind of things "by accident", I just don't buy that, sorry...

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/04/07 10:01

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When someone lies on the operation table having a life-threatening problem and you prevent the doctors from doing their job and you start praying to your God then that person will die.

Phemox, why do you twist my arguments ???

My argument was simply:
"The truth about medicine: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn�t work."

This is a simple observation of REALITY.
Ask your local doctor, if you don�t believe me here.

And please do not invent arguments, that I didn�t make:

I did not say, that - in case of illness - it is better to pray, instead of visiting a doctor.

Let us please stick to the facts:
We both realise, that there are passages in the Bible, that are unacceptable, that there is the possibility, that someone, who claims to be a prophet isn�t telling the truth ...

For you - at least your arguments seem to imply this - this is reason enough, to question religion as a whole, or even God.

For me it is a simple and logical consequence of the difficult area, that religion deals with. Human beings are not infallible. Therefore it is only natural and logical, that there have been different attempts, opinions, attitudes etc.

And this was the reason, why I brought up the analogy with medicine:
There are also different opinions, attempts, attitudes etc.

But for me this does NOT mean, that I start to loose my basic trust in medicine.

I mean, this is really something, that should not be denied, and if I simply acknowledge reality, for example, that operations sometimes don�t work, that a diagnosis may be wrong, this does NOT mean, that I�m an opponent of medicine as a whole.

Now, why did I bring up this analogy?

Because most of your arguments - when it comes to religion - are following this logic: if I can find some mistakes, or different points of view, or a gradual development: The whole system must be wrong and God can�t exist.

But this is obviously a false logical conclusion, because in all areas of human research there is development, people are making mistakes, people try to improve, people have different opinions.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/04/07 13:38

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Phemox, why do you twist my arguments ???

My argument was simply:
"The truth about medicine: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn�t work."

I didn't twist anything, I just said what it would mean in practice.

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This is a simple observation of REALITY.
Ask your local doctor, if you don�t believe me here.

And please do not invent arguments, that I didn�t make:

I did not say, that - in case of illness - it is better to pray, instead of visiting a doctor.

I was pointing out the effects in reality. You can't prove that praying to your God helps, where modern medicine does help. I didn't twist you argument at all, I just commented on it.

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Let us please stick to the facts:
We both realise, that there are passages in the Bible, that are unacceptable, that there is the possibility, that someone, who claims to be a prophet isn�t telling the truth ...

For you - at least your arguments seem to imply this - this is reason enough, to question religion as a whole, or even God.

For me it is a simple and logical consequence of the difficult area, that religion deals with. Human beings are not infallible. Therefore it is only natural and logical, that there have been different attempts, opinions, attitudes etc.

And this was the reason, why I brought up the analogy with medicine:
There are also different opinions, attempts, attitudes etc.

But for me this does NOT mean, that I start to loose my basic trust in medicine.

I understand, but I just wondered where your faith is based upon.

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I mean, this is really something, that should not be denied, and if I simply acknowledge reality, for example, that operations sometimes don�t work, that a diagnosis may be wrong, this does NOT mean, that I�m an opponent of medicine as a whole.

Off course, but there's no way you can tell �f a prayer can work, where modern medicine has clear results. If modern medicine fails, it's either a wrong diagnose or other human error, lack of knowledge for a 'perfect' treatment or perhaps like I said the person didn't have a chance despite the technological level of modern medicine (aka operating takes time).

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Now, why did I bring up this analogy?

Because most of your arguments - when it comes to religion - are following this logic: if I can find some mistakes, or different points of view, or a gradual development: The whole system must be wrong and God can�t exist.

But this is obviously a false logical conclusion, because in all areas of human research there is development, people are making mistakes, people try to improve, people have different opinions.

Okey, then it's back to my previous comment about knowing whether or not the praying was wrong, God said 'no, not this time' or if praying even works at all, in other words if there's no visible effect why would there be a God??

Perhaps you believe in 'instant healings' by mediums or something, but I sure do not, especially those with a show are simply frauds... If modern medicine fails it can be explained why it failed and we mostly learn from our mistakes. That whole process of development and knowledge gathering is indeed something that will go by trial and error at times with casualties as result, but it's 100% different from noticing no effects from prayers ... I don't quite understand why you don't get that point.

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/04/07 21:58

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Perhaps you believe in 'instant healings' by mediums or something ...

No.

I was just making an analogy between two different subjects: medicine and religion.
My impression is, that you are confusing me with someone else

I don�t think it�s a good idea to pray, when something is wrong with the body, and so it wasn�t necessary to convince me of this.

It is however funny, that the variety of opinions, errors, mistakes in religion are reasons for you, to say: God can�t exist!

For me the contradictions etc. just tell me something about the difficulty of the subject or the shortcomings of people, who did not have the same knowledge, that we have.

But in medicine you would accept mistakes (and I agree with you here!), because you know, that the system as a whole nevertheless makes sense!

Now for me it is not so different with religion: Despite the mistakes, that people have made throughout history, I am still able to find some very important stuff and confirmation for a theory, that makes sense, but probably only if you understand it as a whole.

So in the end you might need some basic interest in order to start searching.
The more you understand, the more it might make sense.

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I understand, but I just wondered where your faith is based upon.

This is difficult to explain, mostly, because I do not follow a particular faith-system. Today I could say: It�s based upon e v e r y t h i n g.
I had a very long mystic experience, which made me curious. I wasn�t religious before this and I only gradually accepted the idea of God.
Initially I even rejected the idea, I was running away from this, did all kind of worldly stuff. It didn�t work.
It was like the sudden revelation of something unknown, something absolute, like an absolute, indestructible point of reference, like a spiritual key.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/05/07 15:33

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But in medicine you would accept mistakes (and I agree with you here!), because you know, that the system as a whole nevertheless makes sense!

No, that's not what I meant. It's not about the mistakes at all, it's about the noticeable effects of modern medicine, it actually works, where as for example prayers or whatever 'effective' aspect of religion, you just can't say �f it works at all. Why pray or believe when the effect is unknown? It's what totally makes the entire belief in religion irrelevant.

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The more you understand, the more it might make sense.

'Might' indeed, because well, definitely not when it comes to religion.
The more I know about religions and especially about their origins and the changes throughout history (as far as it's possible to find out about), the less it all makes sense and really the less likely it's content has any real historical value.

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/06/07 07:52

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No, that's not what I meant. It's not about the mistakes at all, it's about the noticeable effects of modern medicine, it actually works, where as for example prayers or whatever 'effective' aspect of religion, you just can't say �f it works at all. Why pray or believe when the effect is unknown? It's what totally makes the entire belief in religion irrelevant.

I don�t know, but most people believe, that human beings, both individuals and groups are heavily influenced not only by medicine and the laws of gravity, but also by ideas, ideologies, belief-systems, role-models, idols, propaganda, communication, what they learn in school, what is considered to be "normal" ...

It is like this: if one very complex system (the human mind) is confronted with another complex system (for example a movie, a book, a theory, an ideology, a faith system) one can�t make exact predictions: different human beings will always react in a different way.

Well, it is obvious, that religion has inspired billions of people in many different and noticeable ways.

For me it is more or less a miracle, that so many people say: we believe in an undefined, invisible being (?), we follow the teachings of someone (Jesus, Mohammed, Moses ...), who lived thousands of years ago, we build churches, we pray, we try to be nice, we follow rituals ...

Religions inspire and influence the human minds. And the human minds usually direct our actions, makes us speak etc ...

In this sense religion - like ideas, opinions, books, theories, ideologies - will produce visible effects, but these effects are of course less predictable then in mathematics or programming for example.

That�s because mathematics is so very simple, it usually follows well defined rules.

Now religion on the other hand is a very large and complex subject and the human mind is very complex too.

We are not like simple minded dead robots, which react in a pre-programmed and predictable way.

We are alive, we can make choices!

And if you say, religion is "irrelevant", just because the effects are less predictable, you could say the same about music, literature, movies, almost everything, that is more complex, than program code ...

You don�t want to transform the human species into robots, do you ?!

Are you aware of the complexity of the human mind?

It�s fine, that you accept medicine and worldly sciences, so let�s start with the possibilities and the structure of the human brain:

In an old magazine (german edition of "Scientific American") a brain researcher once made an interesting analogy:

There are "just" ca. 10^82 elementary particles in the known universe.

There are - at least - ca. 10^3000 possible functional states of the human brain .

10^12 neurons, each one can theoretically pass or receive information from 10.000 other neurons, forming the very complex neural network.

This 10^3000 btw. is just the minimum, more recent research suggests, that also the so called glia-cells (white matter) play a "computational" role, then there is neurogenesis (new neurons can grow and become part of the existing neuronal network) ...

Our brain is very, very, very complex.

The actual "strength" of the human brain and mind is not simple causal operations - like in programming - but we are able to do far more complex stuff: the development of ideas, assumptions, emotions, understanding, awareness ...

And the quality of effects of religion will depend on the amount of reason that we apply to this subject, the depth of understanding, the desire, the individual ability of imagination, the seriousness of the efforts, the depth of emotions ...

So I wouldn�t say, that you can sell or buy this in a supermarket.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/06/07 19:03

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That�s because mathematics is so very simple, it usually follows well defined rules.
Now religion on the other hand is a very large and complex subject

I quote (by heart) Galileo from the " Dialogo dei massimi sistemi"

" I have alwayes admired people who have achieved small but concrete results rather than those ones who have been talking all their life long about complex subjects and never came to any conclusion "

Philosophy is not a complex subject
If you read the masterpieces of the , so called , "great thinkers " you find in general , with some exception of course, either common sense (Kant for example )wrapped with difficult words or pure fantasy but great literature (Egels for example)

Just science can cast a light on the mistery of life
That said ,I dont mean that science supports "Atehism"
Some recent scientific discoveries are actually in favour of religion I mean that the rest is just bla...bla...( dengerous bla..bla...)

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/06/07 19:34

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Well, it is obvious, that religion has inspired billions of people in many different and noticeable ways.

For me it is more or less a miracle, that so many people say: we believe in an undefined, invisible being (?), we follow the teachings of someone (Jesus, Mohammed, Moses ...), who lived thousands of years ago, we build churches, we pray, we try to be nice, we follow rituals ...

That's not a miracle, that's just the effects of masses being influenced throughout time together with the overall ignorance of certain discoveries and knowledge. If everybody knew a lot more about evolution, the number of people believing in a religion would clearly be less, perhaps even close to zero. It's no surprise that people in 3rd world countries for example have a huge percentage of believers (regardless of which religion).

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Some recent scientific discoveries are actually in favour of religion I mean that the rest is just bla...bla...( dengerous bla..bla...)

That's quite a claim

, can you give an example what is in favor of religion? Out the top of my head I wouldn't know even just �ne discovery which might be in favor of religion..

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And the quality of effects of religion will depend on the amount of reason that we apply to this subject, the depth of understanding, the desire, the individual ability of imagination, the seriousness of the efforts, the depth of emotions ...

There's no understanding possible when it comes to fictive ideas. I think you underestimate the human mind and it's curiosity and it's somewhat "simple" solutions to fill gaps of knowledge. It's possible (and not th�t difficult) to trick the brain, in fact, sometimes the brain even allows to be fooled even if it knows it's wrong or likely to be wrong. That's definitely the case when it comes to religion, because there's no way in knowing if it's correct! The more you think about it, the more you will discover it's just an idea to have a solution for ancient problems, some which are already solved by science. There's nothing more to it.

Remember that just because religions exist it doesn't mean one of them HAS to be right, they can easily be all wrong. I think it's by far the most likely that they are all wrong.

Also science isn't always right either, but at least it's able to adapt to new knowledge and experience. Religions usually can't, won't or have a hard time doing so. Why? It's all about Power and Influence.

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That�s because mathematics is so very simple, it usually follows well defined rules.
Now religion on the other hand is a very large and complex subject

Religion follows a similar system of rules actually, but it's far far less complex. I think that's why not many people understand that, they expect it to be extremely complex, but it's not.

Cheers

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/06/07 20:04

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That's quite a claim , can you give an example what is in favor of religion?

I give you 3 examples

The big bang

Even Einstein, who despite a common beleif was an atheist , introduced a constant in its equation to "force" the universe to be stable but he had to admit that it was a mistake

Coscience

At the beginning of the computer era everybody assumed that the difference between an artificial brain and a real brain was in term of number and type of neurons
But it is not like that

The primordial form of life

Evolution can explain a lot of things but the DNA of the simplest form of life is so complex that " pure chance" is absolutly out of question

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/06/07 20:35

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The big bang

Even Einstein, who despite a common beleif was an atheist , introduced a constant in its equation to "force" the universe to be stable but he had to admit that it was a mistake

True, but to understand systems, you have to simplify them. I admit though that this is a weak point, but does this work in favor of religion? I don't think so.

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Conscience

At the beginning of the computer era everybody assumed that the difference between an artificial brain and a real brain was in term of number and type of neurons
But it is not like that

I'm definitely going to look into this since I don't know much about this when it comes to scientific opinions, but I though the consensus on this is still that we haven't found 'our soul' yet, so again, no evidence in favor of religion.

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Evolution can explain a lot of things but the DNA of the simplest form of life is so complex that " pure chance" is absolutly out of question

Selection is not chance, it doesn't happen by pure chance anyways. Besides, where science doesn't have an answer yet, doesn't mean it's in favor of religion. Still, off course, science has not figured out the primordial soup problem just yet.

Those were 3 good issues, but in my opinion not really anything that works in favor of religion,

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/07/07 16:34

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That's not a miracle, that's just the effects of masses being influenced throughout time together with the overall ignorance of certain discoveries and knowledge.

Come on, if it would be just a matter of the "inability" of people to resist powerful propaganda: why did people then turn away from communism???

Why did they return - in Russia for example - to religion after the fall of the Soviet Union, where religion was more or less outlawed???

Actually religion has survived countless ideologies, kingdoms, empires - they all disappeared, religion however remains.

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If everybody knew a lot more about evolution, the number of people believing in a religion would clearly be less

So here we are: for you (and creationists) religion stands and falls with the little story in the Christian Bible, that tells us, that God created everything in six days.

That�s fine, but you confuse bibliolatry and religion and most religious people have no problems with science.

I like science, a proper understanding of the material world for example, historic research, all of this helps me to understand the whole even better.

And on the other hand, many scientists, who are not simple-minded reductionists realise, that there is a huge complex world outside their specific area of research.

To give you a modern point of view, which I share:

"Science's domain is to explore nature. God's domain is in the spiritual world, a realm not possible to explore with the tools and language of science. It must be examined with the heart, the mind, and the soul - and the mind must find a way to embrace both realms."

the science of belief

This is a quote from a new book, "The Language of God", written by Francis S. Collins, the man who headed the Human Genome Project.

I see it in a similar way: modern science is far more reliable, when it comes to hard facts and especially the exploration of the natural world.

Religion on the other hand deals with often very distant goals, questions of right and wrong, good and evil, human relations ...

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There's no understanding possible when it comes to fictive ideas. [...]
That's definitely the case when it comes to religion, because there's no way in knowing if it's correct!

There is not only one religion and it is very well possible, to believe in certain parts, while rejecting others. And many of the "fictive ideas" turn out to be metaphors, parabels etc., so you don�t have to take them as descriptions of real events.
My impression is, you have been indoctrinated by the fundamentalists here ...

I can�t deliver you a "proof" for God, he isn�t a well defined piece of matter, that can be found and explored under a microscope, I also do not need any miracles and such stuff, so in this sense I�m a very bad Christian. But I don�t think, that one has to believe in miracles, I think the miracles are there especially for the simple-minded, for children, in order to attract them, so that they too find access to the more spiritual message.

In this sense there is an interesting quote from St. Paul (Korinthians):

3:1 So, brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but instead as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
3:2 I fed you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready. In fact, you are still not ready ...

"I fed you milk, not solid food" - you see, that St. Paul was very aware of the spiritual limitations of his audience.

The Bible certainly "speaks" to very different people and the miracles are for me like the 1st century version of modern-day Special FX. They are there to impress the simple-minded and attract them to the more abstract and difficult parts.

This is probably the difference between our approaches: for me many passages from the Bible simply reflect real conditions, a real audience - maybe not all of them were philosophers, maybe some were little children ... and the preachers had to take this into account.

But there are also other more meaningful parts, which still can tell me a lot and so this does not prevent me anymore from searching and finding the truth, which is in no way limited by and sometimes contradicts the texts from the Bible.

So in my view it is important to discover the Spirit and I don�t say, that it is easy.

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/07/07 17:18

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Just science can cast a light on the mistery of life

The scientific methods are exact, that�s fine, but as long as they don�t come up with a formula for the meaning of words like "love" or "truth", I would not rely on science so much, when it comes to human life. Biological life maybe, but certainly not spiritual life and the infinite possibilities of the human mind.

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That said ,I dont mean that science supports "Atehism"
Some recent scientific discoveries are actually in favour of religion I mean that the rest is just bla...bla...( dengerous bla..bla...)

I really can�t understand, why people see science and religion in some sort of competition. I mean, scientific discoveries have here and there been at odds with certain claims in certain religious books, but I don�t need science in order to find out, that not everything in a man-made book comes from God.

Actually science and religion should be in perfect harmony, because they both claim, to search for the truth.

But we live in strange times.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/07/07 17:50

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I really can�t understand, why people see science and religion in some sort of competition.

No competition at all
The former is basic on facts the latter on emotions
I beleive in facts only , while I am afraid of emotional people

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/09/07 21:41

All I'm saying is the more you know about life, the universe and everything through science the more religions have no choice but to become more abstract to keep their heads above the water when it comes to facts and truths, it's like you said, now it's already; "no, no, it's meant metaphorical" etc. That's actually back paddling at best, considering the facts and what people used to believe in in the past.

Don't get me wrong, I'm okey with abstract religions, I'm okey with religious people accepting science, they don't exclude eachother. It does seem like a 'cheap escape' to me, although yes I have to admit that a lot of what's written in the bible is quite cryptic, far too cryptic to have been meant literal in the first place. Off course, this is assuming that there still is some original ancient content left, when it comes to complete sentences and the actual way it was written down,

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I beleive in facts only , while I am afraid of emotional people

I'm not afraid of emotional people at all, but a belief based upon emotion does create a breeding ground for extremists and fundamentalists. Those people can have potentially dangerous ideas, but only a handful are a real threat.

Cheers

Posted By: Robotronic

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/10/07 15:04

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All I'm saying is the more you know about life, the universe and everything through science the more religions have no choice but to become more abstract to keep their heads above the water when it comes to facts and truths, it's like you said, now it's already; "no, no, it's meant metaphorical" etc. That's actually back paddling at best, considering the facts and what people used to believe in in the past.

Well, I have no problems with facts, but of course some religious people seem to have such problems and the "evolutionists vs creationists" - debate is just the most obvious example. But I make a difference - and this is very important - between the message of the prophets and the actual behaviour of (mostly worldly-minded) believers.

And also my approach to the prophets is not: They are infallible, I must follow them, even if reason or love tell me something completely different. Time has changed, and of course we often do much better, than the archaic people, who lived 3000 years ago. It would be crazy to go back and imitate them.
On the other hand I don�t see, that modern lifestyle has always the best solution.

For me there is no back paddling at all and I think Jesus Christ and other prophets would welcome an abstract spiritual understanding of many Biblical texts. They were in fact often complaining about their worldly-minded audience.

But the Bible is a big book and different parts require a different approach. Some parts can only be understood, if you know other parts, so I would look for inner logic and a direction, a development of the ideas, I always try to imagine the context of the time ...

There is not one simple, single rule that can catch all situations.

But I keep it short here, this thread was intended to be another "evolutionists vs creationists" - debate, for me this is all very strange, because I don�t believe, that God can be found in the fossils ...

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/13/07 18:36

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I'm not afraid of emotional people at all, but a belief based upon emotion does create a breeding ground for extremists and fundamentalists. Those people can have potentially dangerous ideas, but only a handful are a real threat.

You got the point
This is exactly the reason why I am scared of emotional people
Of course, just a minority of them put into action their dangerous ideas but humanity does not need milions Toquemada's

Read the posts of some fundamentalist Christians , here on this forum !
For sure they are nice people but. well...
To be fair, I must admit that emotions create also saints but well I feel myself much more confortable in a society made of cynic common sensed guys

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Kann es Evolution geben????? - 07/13/07 18:58

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But I keep it short here, this thread was intended to be another "evolutionists vs creationists" - debate, for me this is all very strange, because I don�t believe, that God can be found in the fossils ...

You're right, God can not be found in the fossils, they quite clearly indicate there was no creation. (at least not in the way the bible describes and what's left is that at best there could have been an ID completely at the beginning of things, but it doesn't look like that atm.). It's no surprise that the Vatican already supports the evolution theory, I think others will follow too if they do not support it already.

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On the other hand I don�t see, that modern lifestyle has always the best solution.

That's perhaps because all in all when it comes to our level of true social civilization not th�t much has changed trough time. There are still poor people, death penalties, murderers, corrupt governments and what more. Still, I do think our modern lifestyle is much much better overall.

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It would be crazy to go back and imitate them.

Yup, that's what I mean. People often think only about the barbaric punishments of those ages, but there are plenty of other extremely odd social things that once were and would be idiotic to go back to. (Like marriages with cousins and stuff like that, but other more basic things.)

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To be fair, I must admit that emotions create also saints

True, which is exactly why religions try to use them for their cause.

Cheers

Kann es Evolution geben?????