Assume a God exists...

..and really has created the world and the humans. Whether from a lump of clay as some believe, or through nature's laws and evolution as others believe, shall not matter here. This is a poll about for what purpose a hypothetical God could have created us. It's not about what you might have read about God in some book - what matters is just your uninfluenced opinion. You need not even believe in God to fill in this poll. Just assume that the motives of the God you imagine are, to some extent, rational and logical.

I'm interested in the results of this poll for a religious study. You can select one or two options for any question. There is no "Other" option, so please select the answer you think most likely even if you don't fully agree with any of them. Thanks a lot for participating in the poll!

Well of course I cannot answer such a limited poll, but I commend you for looking at the possibilities. Its always beneficial to study alternatives even if you dont believe them.

As a thought experiment I have often thought about "what if God doesnt exist".

I think another engaging question would be: "If God exists, how would he answer this poll?"

Would He ignore it as being ridiculous?

yeah, interesting poll, but i cannot answer it. that doesn't make this off-topic though; perhaps you'd be interested in "why".

when you refer to God as "God", it's very difficult to separate the "God" i know from this anonymous character you're describing; a god limited by human perception and knowledge compared to my "God" i know much better and already have a faith in. this poll would be much easier to answer for atheists, and even then, it wouldn't be much of a religious poll as most answers would be from non-religious people.

for example, if you created a poll saying "Assume a Robert Neville" exists, and asked me all these questions about this hypothetical "Robert Neville", it'd be too difficult to step away from what i think the "Robert Neville" that i actually know would do (Robbie's my best friend and like a brother to me [even though i have brothers], and isn't that guy from I Am Legend).

now, i could have made that less confusing by using someone else as an example (someone not played by Will Smith), but he's the best example of someone i know well enough that i could answer most questions on his behalf.

i hope that's useful for you.

julz

To me it's obvious a God would probably be more successful in making people believe in him or her when it would try to actively impress people and let know that he does exist. One way or another some kind of divine intervention also recognized as such would be needed.

I don't think he would be interested in books or polls anymore than he would care about ants or plants or rocks. I'm sure he would have learned very fast about humans, (ironically created in his own image?), that they'd take advantage of things if there's a good chance of personal gain.

Going by the commonly used definition(s?) of Gods being all knowing and all powerful I'm thinking the purpose isn't to learn.., but at the same time I realize learning about himself may be the one thing left and the one thing hardest to 'study'.



What would you suggest when it comes "better" poll-options/questions? I know for atheists it's just a theoretical multiple choice thing, so perhaps you're right that it's easier for 'us', but wouldn't you at least agree there are options that make less sense from the perspective of logic?

Cheers

I thought the questions were okay. They were on a "what do you think" scale. For instance "To observe their behavior" is a great answer. The thing is though, some of the options are rather limited or include a little too much in them such as the "how would God react to athiests". Overall about 3 of the questions are viable, but need more options, and some options need to be split into two...

logic based on what, though? what was God's purpose in making us? the "logic" of most questions relies heavily on the choice for the first question (the "why"), and that question in itself is very limiting: either God needs our help (learning or making more good) or He made us just to worship Him.

i liked how you, PHeMoX, being an atheist, picked up on that bit as well: God by definition wouldn't be making us so He can learn from us. that should really leave one choice as far as the poll jcl's given us is concerned.

i will do my best to answer the poll; i just don't think a generalised poll for both atheists and theists will return very useful results in a study on religion. i think the survey is asking for the means to several different ends, without separating them.

julz

EDIT: i can't answer the last question. grouping "hate" (ungodly) with "hell" (the best choice for that question) was a bad decision. look up "universalism" and "annihilationism". i'm not saying i believe in those, but from my limited perspective on God's creation i would choose "universalism". none of the other answers are acceptable, but neither is ascribing "hate" to God.

I agree on the "learning from us" bit, the only problem is when I did the poll I clicked on a few answers that I didn't mean to click T_T... now if only I could redo it... anyway that's why I said what I did, the answer: "To observe their behavior and learn from them" is both a good and a bad answer, in my opinion "to observe behavior" and "learning from them" should be two different answers. I agree with the "observing" part but not the "learning" part, which is why I said the answers have too much to them or they are not as varied as they should be.

As for the last question, I also did not answer it for that reason. Hate has nothing to do with people going to hell. People go to hell because they send themselves their by refusing to believe in God, so "hate" is completely irrelevant.

This makes not much sense to me. Going to hell is a punishment. If you use a punishment to educate your kids then you will not punish them forever. You will punish them for a short while hoping they learn from that and will behave better in the future.
Punishing for all eternity is not reasonable especially if you love your kids. It is clearly an act of hate. So I have to agree with JCL.

Thank you for the answers so far! Especially interesting is that "Learn about himself" and "God likes Atheists" are leading in questions 1 and 5, as these concepts are not found in the 9 main religious belief patterns of the world.

If you do not agree to any answer on a question, you can post your differing answer here in a comment. For instance, the gods of several Christian and Islamic belief patterns burn people in hell just for their opinion. Burning someone because he disagrees to something is normally considered a hate crime. Of course it's difficult if not impossible to describe a god's feelings, so we're using words associated with human feelings. If a particular god behaves in a way that would be described as hateful in a human, "Hating" fits better than for instance "Disliking".

I copied one wrong answer from my original poll that had more options than 4 per questions. Instead of "Befriending", the option in question 4 should have been "Testing selected humans by exposing them to tough choices". But anyway, as polls can't be changed afterwards, so be it.

but hell isn't necessarily eternal. look at my edit in my last post. look up universalism and annihilationism. they're not necessarily right, but they're certainly options our "ideal God" could pick.

jcl only included one type of punishment.

julz

EDIT: that was directed at Frank, btw. jcl got in there just before me.

It's one of the many reasons why certain religions believe you'll get many chances to relive your life, reincarnation. It has it's own set of philosophical/practical problems, but it seems they have a solution for the eternal punishment-issue.

Going by the Bible, God isn't an ever-friendly being by the way. I'm not saying he 'hates' in general, but there are parts in the Bible where he seems angry to say the least, :P

Cheers

Of course, to observe and learn. We like to observe and learn things, and we are derived from his toughts. Thus he must at least be familiar with the concepts "observing" and "learning". Either he made us like himself, eager to observe and learn, or he made us quite the opposite meaning he does not like learning and observing. Yet making something that is the opposite of yourself indicates that you have an interest in your counterside, thus want to observe, thus a paradox. Paradoxes are always false, and so the only thing left is that he made us like him, eager to learn. Or whatever .


I wonder why God would want to be believed in by his own creation anyway. He can do whatever he want, if he wanted to be believed in by his own imagination, then he has some sort of psychologic disorder? An Inferiority complex? I think we can safely discard that option, so he practically doesn't care about our awareness in him but for scientific reasoning. If he does it to observe behaviour, it can be any of the answers, but I can choose only two.


So far I haven't seen anything from God, so I can't possibly tell from experience. But Bible teaches us above two answers, along with "releasing laws to demand do good deeds". I don't see any difference between that one and inflict spectacular punishments for bad deeds. Though, I'm very well aware that the medieval times had a big, big influence on religion, hiding the whole belief under a dark curtain. Thus these answers may not be total truth (for me) at all.


IF God wants to learn from humans, that is. Just observing them covers all other answers.


Well, that is what I would have liked. A sarcastic, old-fashioned God with sense of dry humor, just coming down to earth once in a while to teach us the right way, not meaning that you have to follow it. He doesn't care about your opinion, he just shows you the right way and let it go.

There's a great dutch hilarious series of G. the Father, returned on earth to demotivate us doing various things. He hates vacation, making yourself pretty, getting kids, paranormality, individuality, creativity and 6 other subjects, and demotivates us to do any of those in a hilarious way. I wish to have such a God ^^.

That's entirely true. The question is, if someone murdered in cold blood, and decided that they were right in doing so. Would you not insist the death penalty? People seem to think that the christian God doesn't get angry or have any emotions, that's completely not true. The bible says "we were created in his image" that means that we were created with all the features of God, including emotions. What makes what God says right? Well...he's God, the creator. It's like asking "is what my parents taught me wrong?".

@jcl, frank: The fact is that God does not SEND you to hell. God gives the option of living any way you like, however, when you make a bad choice and live against his ways, then you go to hell because you did not listen despite what he has said. There is no hate crime involved. Would you expect someone to break the law and not pay the penalty? No, you would expect no less than them to be punished, is that a hate crime? Is sending someone to the electric chair because they committed cold blooded premeditated murder a hate crime?

The thing most of you don't seem to understand is also what JulzMighty said, the bible does not say that if you go to hell you will be there for all eternity, as a matter of fact the book of Nicodemus (not included in the bible by the catholic church) records that certain people like Moses (who disobeyed God) made it into heaven when Jesus went to heaven.

Do not call going to hell a hate crime, you choose yourself where you want to go by deciding to believe in God or not. If you don't follow his commandments, that's your fault, don't blame him.

For the poll answers, the facts are more important than how you call it. Hitler did not SEND dissidents to the concentration camps. They had the option of living any way they like, however, when they make a bad choice and live against Hitler's ways, then they go into the gas chambers.

I am aware that it's important for many people to avoid attributes as "hate" or "sending to hell" for the god they worship, because such attributes have a negative connotation in today's society. However, the poll is formulated in a sort of commonsense way - if a god decides that people who don't worship him go to hell, it's called "punishing in hell". Otherwise I'd need 100 differently formulated options for any question. The 'hell' answer would be right even if you would use different words than "punishing in hell" or "hating". In that sense, selecting the answer might demand a sort of straightforwardness.

but "hate" isn't a necessity for sending to hell, so i cannot answer the last question because there are no decent options there (as far as i'm concerned).

anyone can choose to do something they don't want to do -- even God.

julz

Ok, assume this is true and you are a quite exact copy of God. Then I can learn from you about God. You are probably often praying and worshipping, reading the Bible and talking about it. What book is God reading? To whom is he praying and worshipping? Or did he implant some new features into your existence?

Hitler did not give a choice. If you were of a race or did not Look up to his standards, you died. There's a difference in mass-murder and punishment. The difference is that mass-murder is a hate crime and doesn't give you a choice and punishment is not a hate crime and gives you a choice. I suppose your parents hated you when they grounded you to your room for doing something wrong?



God does not need knowledge he already has. Why would he need to read a book when he is constantly busy with prayers, watching over the human race and talking with those that believe in him. Even then, God would see the author write the book, perhaps he does read them. As for praying and worshipping, God implanted in us a void, a void that only he can fill, which is why there are people who praise and worship him of their own accord, why would he need to praise and worship when he has legions of angels and humans praising him?

If hell really is as punishing and eternally evil as lots of religions claim it is, then there's no doubt that 'hate' came into play as well.

After all, people won't get send there because God loves them so much,



Sure, but getting grounded is way different from spending eternity in flames and torture,

Cheers

I'd like to learn understanding what 'choice' establishes a difference between punishment and mass murder. Can you explain? I give you some examples.

A dictator sentences people who oppose him to prison camps, where they eventually die. A god sends people who don't believe in him to hell where they'd burn to death if they weren't already.

Second example: A dictator kills all people of Jewish ancestry. A god kills all firstborn male children of Egyptian ancestry.

I have problems to understand the basic difference in the examples. I have maybe a choice between opposing a dictator or not, but I have no choice between believing in a god or not, or between being male and of Egyptian ancestry or not. And even if I had a choice, it's still mass murder as far as I understand. But maybe I'm just stupid. Can you help?

But why he implanted this void in you but not in me? I am happy that I can fill any void with my work, my hobby, sport and family.

And I will not punish my kids eternally. And I also will not threaten them with such punishments, though I could do. Many people do. They say to their kids to not make a grimace otherwise the grimace would stay forever (just as an example). This is old-school. We should be more honest to our kids. They will understand. Threatening them is a bad method to teach them. Is God old-school now?

Well first of all you shouldnt call yourself stupid even if everyone seems to agree with you.

Secondly there seems to be a lot of things taken out of context and distorted, but thats ok. In the spirit of "assuming an opposite viewpoint is true.." I will say that lets assume that you are right and there is little difference from punishment and mass-murder, lets look at your example:

Hitler wanted a new race and to annihilate all of his enemies and believed that the 3rd reich would be a 1000 year reign.

Jesus wants a new race (the Christians) and wants to annihilate all His enemies and wants to set up an eternal reign over all peoples.

The enemies and victims in both cases do not have much of a choice, one cannot help being born a enemy of the 3rd reich, and I suppose that in a sort of way one cannot help not believing in the God of the Bible.

So, following your line of reasoning, where does that leave everyone?

I dont understand the conclusions we are supposed to make: Is God evil or is Hitler good?

But I am only following your reasoning, I am only assuming that your right in the same way you have 'assumed that God exists'

if your right I still dont see any reason to reject God. If I was a Jew in Nazi Germany I could try to escape, but if I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God there IS_NO_ESCAPE, I must repent or die, there are no other options.

Thanks for the explanation. I did not want you to conclude that the god JHWH, who killed the Egyptian children, must be rejected. To the contrary, if you really believe that, better continue to worship him - otherwise he'll punish you too!

No, this was just about the formulation of the answer to the last poll question. I just didn't understand the argument that burning unbelievers is bad when done by some humans, but ok when done by some god.

I'm sure we all agree that Hitler was not good.

I'm also sure we can't convince you of how God may be just or fair on one hand, but evil at the same time. After all, if free will-choices gets punished anyways... then what's the sense of having all that in the first place?

I don't think a God killing millions or sending people to hell makes it a good God. Perhaps I'm biased here, but it's like voluntary slavery if you accept such things,

Cheers

No. Its not good for those people, but heaven is good for those who choose it.

All people have a choice, one might think the Pharoah would have made a logical choice after the first nine plagues, but because he was hardheaded he finally lost the thing dearest to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt


And also if you have ever read the story you know that the Israelites were also not exempt from the death angel, but only those who spread lambs blood on their door frames were spared.

So there were also those choices.

As far as hell goes, we all have a choice. I choose to believe so I will go to heaven. There is no evil in that, there is only happiness for me. If someone else chooses not to then I am very sorry but there is nothing I can do.

There is something even worst than hell in Christian religion, at least in the protestant version
It is predestination
I can not really understand how people can believe in such a mostruosity
And please Catholic friends dont tell me that protestants are wrong
They are right, their interpretation of the Bible is right
Read the letter exchange between Luter and Erasmus

IMO the poll makes no sense because God, or a god, has to be 'unfathomable' - otherwise one had principles and morals which are independent of God, and one never can say _a_ God as long as someone is a believer. He has to be somehow beyond good and evil, beyond explanations, beyond sense and nonsense.
The base of believing is at least a rest of enigma. The other part of him has to be within good and evil - as part of the good side - etc. He has to be both, beyond and within - that's a rest that noon can solve. But, if a god, his enigma, could be solved, or his will could be known in details, he wouldn't remain a god.

I'm not believing in any god, I believe that one has to consider each human as eventually 'unfathomable', that's the common interest or 'faith' that I share with those of my friends who are Christians.

I like to think that the other, that one that I look at and who looks at me, that he is somehow beyond me and within me(in my thoughts and my feelings).

At Nitro:


I wonder what the questions of such poll will be!

@AlbertoT:
predestination is a no-brainer if you believe in causal determinism and God being all-knowing and all-powerful.

@PHeMoX:
He's not punishing free-will itself. if your kid is grounded and you leave them home-alone, it is their free-will whether or not to honour your commands. if they don't and you find out, aren't you going to punish them? are you punishing their free-will or their abuse of free-will?

ultimately, i believe Christianity is the only path we can choose to take for salvation (don't try dispute that with a "predestination -- Christians believe they don't have a choice" thing, cos that's rubbish; our choice and God's sovereign choice are compatible), but God will be fair to those who never get a chance to hear of Christianity.

for those who reject; that's their choice but it doesn't make it a good choice. for those who reject blindly without giving it a second thought (not pointing fingers; a lot of people here show interest in learning from these discussions) that's their stupid choice. -- look up Pascal's Wager. anyone who then says "but being a Christian would detract from my life" doesn't understand that Christianity is simply believing. no rules. we who follow "rules" do so out of a love for God and the understanding that doing otherwise isn't exactly good for our lives, or the faith of those around us.

@jcl: sorry for contributing to this thread's devolution into just another Christianity thread.

julz

Let's see it

God knows that some people will go to hell, whatever they do..
Not just a few of them, most of them...it is clearly written in the Bible...
Nevertheless He creates them....

Catholics were of course horrified about this litteral interpretation of the Bible thus they tried to release a..patch
But the purist protestants said :

No my friends you must stick to the Bible, this is what the Bible claim

The point is that they are right

I wonder wether people who declared to be Christian have ever read the Bible

"no-brainer" means "requires little thought". i'm saying "of course there's predestination! we don't even need the Bible to tell us that. if you agree (i know you don't) that God is all-knowing and all-powerful, and you agree (perhaps you do) with causal determinism, then predestination is required!"

think of it this way:
God in His all-knowingness knew He was creating a world and universe such that everything that happened would happen. He also knew that by interfering with it in x, y, and z ways l, m, n, o, and p would happen differently. so God knew how everything would work out and determined how He would interfere with it from the get go, hence the concept of God's divine plan. which the bible tells us exists anyway.

still, by making the world and choosing to intervene such that everything that actually did happen would, he doesn't take away our freedom of thought (at least, as much as causal determinism doesn't take it away from us without a God).

if God didn't make the world such that people didn't choose Him, who's to say we actually have free-will?

of course, as Pappenheimer said, who can presume to know the mind of the unfathomable God (even if Pappenheimer is an atheist)? i can't tell you for sure why God predestined many for destruction. however, wouldn't you much rather be on His good side than His bad? Pascal's Wager, again.

why?

julz

There are two logical problems with Pascals Wager, which was anyway meant as a joke and not to be really taken seriously.

The first problem is that you can not choose to believe in God or not, you can only choose to pretend to believe in God. But if you pretend to believe in God because of Pascal's Wager, you are a hypocrite and probably end up in hell.

The second problem is that its not sufficient to believe in some God, you must also believe in the real God, and not in a false God. I think its clear from the Bible that worshipping a false God is wrong, and even worse than not worshipping God at all. So by worshipping a false idea of God, you'll end up in hell even more likely than if you were an atheist. Especially, I think if you worship a god that kills innocent children, you're having a false idea of God, and sorry, that means hell.

However if you now worry that you will go to hell, you can put your mind at rest because only sinners go to hell, and not believing in God or believing in a false God is no sin. Sin requires that you have a choice but believing is not based on a choice.

well the first problem isn't a problem, because it's not meant to be the reason to believe, it's meant to be reason enough to look into believing -- the "impetus" for your belief. to ignore the possibility of Christianity being the path to salvation is taking a stupidly large (and needless) gamble.

the second problem isn't a problem either, because the Bible is quite clear that all you need to do is believe in the fact that Jesus died and rose again for our sins, and accept that sacrifice.

thirdly, the Bible says that if we weren't all sinners those who didn't sin would get into heaven on their own merit, but no one is without sin.

julz

Because I can not even figure out a God of love who decided to create a universe populated by people who will suffer for the eternity, even though he knew it from the very beginning
After all , He was not obliged to create human kind
It is such a mostruosity that the most important Christian comunity, the catholic churce refute the predestination
The point is that the Catholic church is wrong
This is exactly what it is written in the Bible
I suppose that now it is clear why I suppose that most of the christians have never read the Bible

hm... another silly question about heaven came to my mind. lets say your wife stops believing (for example like dan silverman). how can you be happy in heaven if you know that your wife is roasting in hell at the same time? how does this work with everyone being happy in heaven? (of course i assume that you love your wife. :))

Christians are not supposed to marry non-Christians for that very reason.

But usually if you have situation with a believer/non-believer marriage it is because the person KNEW before marriage that they were marrying an unbeliever and they either A)did not want to listen to the Bible or B)believed that somehow they could convert their partner later. Situations such as Dan's are rare. In my many years of Christianity I have seen maybe not even a half dozen personal cases like Dan's. Usually its the other way around, the husband will usually convert to Christianity from a 'heathen' state.

Most of the time when a believer marrys an unbeliever it is a Christian woman marrying a un-Christian man and hoping they will change.

What is much more common, and IMO much more heart wrenching is when children become unbelievers. Their parents usually have a difficulty adjusting to these decisions. I have seen many kids I went to school with being brought up Christian and became un-Christian as they grew up. I have also seen how hurt and miserable the parents get.

It is a very very difficult situation knowing that a loved one is going to hell, or not just loved_ones, just seeing people around you going to hell is very difficult sometimes.
I think you have misinterpreted my saying there is nothing I can do, to nothing_I_would_do.

For example, I have been talking to jcl,you and phemox in this thread I wouldnt want any of you to go hell. I am very sincere about that. But what can I do? I can only try my best and pray that some day you might see the truth and convince you the best I can. (although sometimes it seems if you guys just WANT to go to hell)

The point is I cant force you or anyone to believe.
Well how can anyone on earth be happy knowing that on average 150,000 people die EVERY_DAY? Many of them are dying painful deaths, many people are hurting and dying by the thousands EVERY_SECOND. How can any of us be happy? All you can do is try your best to help whoever you can and know that in the end you tried your hardest.
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/pcwe
I believe in heaven we will just simply know that justice has been done. Everyone was given a choice, there was no partiality. In heaven, as on earth we need to continue to live, in spite of those who are less fortunate.

In fact, an atheist would be much more depressed than a believer about all the death and suffering because you have 55 million people dying every year, and every injustice and atrocity goes UNANSWERED. At least Christianity gives a reason for justice, and provides a recompense for all those truly evil things which have occured.

I do love her very very much, and though she has done many things wrong she never has rejected God.

@AlbertoT:
okay, i can see what you mean, given you have a problem with how our God supposedly acts. i wouldn't call the Catholic church the "most important Christian community", though. if they were so important there would've been no Reformation, and Protestants are Protestants because they feel that being a better Catholic has no relation to being a better Christian (and at times can be even distracting and detrimental).

@ventilator:
Jesus is quite clear that there isn't marriage in heaven ("what happens when there are seven brothers, and the first is married, dies, and his widow marries the second, who dies... who has her in heaven?"... see Jesus' response in Matthew 22). many things will be different, including our minds (there will be no sin). i don't want to lose the uniqueness of many of my relationships and the special uniqueness of my relationship with a particular girl who's very special to me, but i trust that in heaven it will be all good, and we will be changed such that it's all good.

julz

We have, but we draw different conclusions. That's why there sadly are many different Christian factions that all believe in the savior Jesus Christ, but believe in fundamentally different gods.

As a European Protestant I believe that God loves us as described in the New Testament, and God did never kill innocent children. The story in the Bible is just a parable for expressing Gods superiority over other gods, in that case, the Egyptian gods.

There is a historic kernel to the story of the Hebrew exodus from Egypt, there was indeed a Hebrew tribe in Egypt, the Hyksos, and they even governed Egypt for a while. But the story of killed children is not historical, otherwise it would certainly have been mentioned in the Egyptian chronicles, so I have to accept that it never happened and a loving God would never do such a thing. A loving God would also never send people to hell that just happen not to believe - thats utter nonsense. God loves anyone, Christians, Muslims and Atheists likewise. That is the greatness of God.

But some Christian factions really believe in a lesser god that kills children because it fits, as you correctly say, the description in the Old Testament. So you have literal bible believing Christians with a children killing god, and non literal bible believing Christians, the majority I think, with a loving God. That are two different gods.

This is just to explain the contradiction between mainstream Christian belief and some passages in some books of the Old Testament.

Tobias

I appreciate what you said but one thing is what you believe an other thing is what the Bible claim
If you are Christian you must beleive in the Bible , old a new Testament
regrdless if you like it or not

AlbertoT, the Christian faith is based on the Bible, that's agreed by all Christian factions, but they do not agree on how to interpret the Bible. Most Christians see the bible as a work inspired by God, containing human thoughts about God, moral advices, poesy, parables, fables, and literature. They certainly dont see it as a history book and dont think that the fables really happened.

This has nothing to do with what I like in the Bible or not. It has all to do with what the Bible is and how it is meant to be understood.

The Bible was inspired by God, but written by humans, with all their weaknesses, errors and in the context of their society, and often hundreds of years after the events that they describe, when the events are already faded behind fables and legends. You are wrong when you think Christians are forced to believe the Bible is a history book. Most Christians accept logic, history and science like anyone else. I suppose you are an Atheist or Agnostic, but if you ask your local pastor, he'll probably patiently explain to you how Christians normally understand the Bible. If you want to learn more, I recommend the Yale Bible course

http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies

by Professor Christine Hayes, a Christian and Theologist. The Bible course is free downloadable.

Sadly the 'history book' belief by some Christians is used by Atheists to show that Christian faith is immoral, which it isn't.

True indeed, but it's also the obvious reason why I have far more problems with the fundamentalist ideas (read: mainly only their interpretations of the Bible or in case of different religions the different holy scriptures). I respect either way. It's definitely not wrong to look at the Bible as something valuable in terms of literature, psychology, philosophy, morality and what more. It's reason number one why I think it's actually good for people to read through the Bible. I don't agree with organized religion in general for various reasons, but religious philosophy is very interesting.



Yeah. Most atheists have issues with the fact that the belief is based upon faith as the evidence for this 'truth' though. I don't agree that this is somehow only true for Christians with the 'history book' belief of the Bible. The faith basically is the immorality at hand. It may sound disrespectful, but the blindness people seem to rely upon is immoral. Especially when there are great arguments and when there is actual physical evidence that suggests many different stories. I'm not against the belief in God(s), but it's striking how many people seem to believe for practically no reason or who have never really given it much thought. Of course it's a bit different for those who think of the Bible as a nice book but nothing more, but only believing in a God doesn't make you a Christian, right? I mean, believing in a God makes you a theist. So, there must still be reasons why people think their 'Christian' God is the 'correct' God to believe in. You don't become a Christian, just because you live in a Christian country and happen to believe in a God. After all, that would be illogical, right?

Anyways, my point is, I've talked to many people that claimed to be (non-fundamentalist) Christians, but turned out to really be more agnostic about their true beliefs.



As long as it doesn't interfere with their deeper religious beliefs this is certainly true. But take for example the evolution theory and lots of moderate Christians will sort of question science. It's difficult not to generalize here as there also are many (european) Christians that do accept the theory of evolution. But it's easy for moderate Christians to accept that their cars and what not are functioning because of science on one hand, but at the same time there's this serious hesitation when it comes to different kinds of scientific theories such as the theory of evolution or even basic history.



I know you were talking about what Christians tend to believe in, but when it comes to accepting logic, history and science.... what ever happened to the conclusion that seems to make more sense? Like; God was invented by humans and the Bible is just part of that? After all, Gods don't write books, humans do.

I guess perhaps believing in God (of the Bible) ultimately stands directly in the way of accepting logic, history and science here?

Cheers

In principle I would accept it, but it is hard for me to accept an interpretation which is the direct opposite of what the Bible claims

Let me stick to the predestination

I would suggest again to read the letters exchanged between Erasmus and Luter on this topic

Erasmus says : Luter how can you believe in such a mostruosity ?
Luter replies : Erasmus how do you dare to interpretate the word of Lord ?

Luter quote the Bible
Erasmus just the "the common sense" ( and a little bit of humanity)

My thoughts on God.

people are stupid, evil creatures who need constant guidance and cannot take responsibility for their own actions on the whole. That is MY belief...on the other hand I can think of worse things to believe in.

Yeah I agree. But it makes perfect sense to some extent. After all plain ignorance is the easiest way out when people's intelligence, oops I mean level of knowledge, isn't up to the task of comprehension. I think the seemingly widespread evil is a result of haughtiness and a busload of temporary(?) stupidity.

Cheers

Read the bible. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. That's right. Plain and simple. If you read it and ask God to reveal Himself to you, then you will have the answers and won't have to ask man's opinion.

Even Christians disagree fundamentally about the answers, so the Bible apparently does not give everyone plain and simple answers. Besides, the God of the Bible is only one among many other Gods; the poll is not for Christians only.

Quoting jcl.

Perhaps, but the poll does seem to target a specific flavor of god (if polls can target?), and seemingly, gods like Cthulhu, for example, are not favored (, when 'they' should be ).

I miss the option: To enslave humanity mentally and physically.
in
<<God's most likely main motivation to create humans was...>>

"She" was bored and invented the first video game. First life ...

But there is only one true living God.

No there isn't.

yes there is!

Yes, yes there is

There is only One true living God. Satan does exist, and he is in fact the god of this world, but he will be the third resident of the lake of fire/hell after the beast and the false prophet, then all the unbelievers will join them. Yes, people make all kinds of things into gods, but there is only the One and True Living God. Hallelujah!

Just out of curiosity: how would you answer the questions of the poll?

God created man to worship Him, but He gave man free will.


God has revealed Himself through nature, through His word (the bible), and throught His Son, Jesus Christ.


God does not make humans do anything. He gave us free will. If He wanted to make us worship Him and not sin, then He would have created robots and not have given us a choice.


God does not need to learn anything. He is God and He knows everything.


God has said in His word that if we reject His Son, Jesus Christ as our Saviour, then He will reject us.

Any unequivical proof of G-d's existance, an omnicient and omnipotent being, would go far to remove mankind's responsibility to improve, improve and protect the world, and free will.

It sounds a little primitive for a God to create people just to be worshipped. Why would a real God need to create people for worshipping him? I would assume this from some dictator, but not from God.

I also feel bad for people who believe that their existence only serves this purpose. I think there's a lot more to our purpose in life.

I agree that there is much more to our purpose in life. I believe that everything that God allows (and I believe that God is sovereign and in control of all things) is to bring us to a saving knowledge of Him and into a closer relationship with Him once we come to that saving knowledge. I believe that God created mankind to love us. God wants us to love Him, too, but He gave us free will. Yes, God wants us to worship Him. If God exists and is indeed the Creator (and I know He is), then He is the only one who is deserving of our worship.

We love Him because He first loved us.
1 John 4:19

I don't thinkt he poll covers each detail, so I'm going to add my vcomments int his thread.
Hopefully they are not just overread but also taken into account just like the answers of the poll (note: the answers which fitted were selected by me - see number in brackets to get number of answers. All others I skipped):

God's most likely main motivation to create humans was... (1)

- God wanted to have some fun. Some sort of playground, just as we do when we play the Sims. It's also a source of knowledge and new ideas. But the first thing is entertainment.
Closest match: He created us to learn from.


What would God mainly do to be believed in? (0)

- That's open. He'd be interested about the ideas his creation comes to. He'd enjoy how different beliefs spread and because of that wars start. Must be fun to watch.


What would God mainly do to make humans do good deeds? (0)

- Probably nothing. Maybe give them some motivation by giving them money, a good job or something else if there's not enough and the game becomes boring.


What would God mainly do to learn from humans? (2)

- just observing them fits it pretty well. Also the second point. If things get boring, let's see how people react on a catastrophe.


How would God react on people not believing in him (Atheists)? (1)

- Not at all fits it pretty well. That's part of the fun.



Please not that this post is not intended to be offensive. I've been asked to give my opinion and so I did.
If you don't agree that's fine, but please don't feel offended. It's up to you what you believe.