Does the Bible really teach that Jesus was God?

This question came up on another thread, but had little to do with the original topic. However, it's an important enough question to talk about so here-goes...

I would argue that the Bible does not clearly express the notion that Jesus is God. The Old Testament describes the One God as a being without form, who's name is Yahwah. Jesus does not match this description, therefore, according to the Bible, Jesus is not God.

Overly simplistic? Yes, but it forms the basis of my argument.

please make your thesis more clear:

a) you do believe in jesus being god, and thus disagree with the bible (bible clearly claims that he's not god)
b) you do believe in jesus being not god,
c) you do believe in jesus, agree with the bible that he's not god, but read here in the forum that he IS, and want to clarify it.
d) you argue about the clarity of the bible, not expressing anything valuable in this point (which is wrong, jesus claims so numerous times that he's "just" the son)

According to some there are 3 Gods, some argue there's one in 3 forms/appearances or something.

Others argue God can be anything or even anyone.

I'm sure the Bible is uhm vague on the subject as always. For example there are cases where a translation of Gods would be possible.

Cheers

Yes, lately I woundered about the 3 god mentioning as well. They call it in German "Heilige Dreifaltigkeit". Probably you can traslate it into something like "Holy Trinity". They are talking about God as the father, Jesus as the son and some other holy ghost.

So they probably claim all these persons to be one person: God.

that would be foolish, and i don't think (hope) they do. trinity consists of

- god (the one and only, the almighty, creator of the world etc)
- his son (cruified to take away our sins)
- and the holy spirit (probably the most difficult and interesting concept, some kind of bond, acting, guidance, will, hope, love, belief, something that can be (m)anything(s) and manifest in (m)anything(s), it would be interesting to draw a line back to nature religions in terms of "spirits" and "spirit beliefs")

jesus says numerous times that he's not god, but his son. why would a christian argue against the bible? (ok, i do sometimes, but europeans protestants are special in terms like these, especially when they were born in a formerly socialist country, compared to the american "fundamentalists" and catholics). the spirit is something that comes down on earth after the ascension of the christ, as a "visible" sign of god's love, so it's "only" a sign/metaphor (as there is no "ghost" in hollywood-terms, more like a "feeling" and a "moral guide").

at least that's how i see it. feel free to correct me.

Romans 9:5: "Theirs [the people of Israel] are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." - NIV

Jesus doesn't say that He's not God by saying that He's His Son. as His creation we are His sons and daughters, so as God created Jesus the person for Himself to be, Jesus is His Son. so if Jesus doesn't say He's not God, and the Bible (as i quoted) teaches that He is, then the Bible explicitly teaches that Jesus was (and is) God.

julz

well dont want to screw the thread or something,

first off, i want state that i am a Muslim(not that religious tho.)
second, Islam and Christianity is basically same thing in the core and very similar at most parts.

The main diffrence is the understanding the God, Jesus and God's attributes, and how religions explains them.

before the story and wath Quran says about Bible/Jesus/Holy Spirit/God, according to Quran:

We do believe that the God in both religions is the same God.
Jesus is His prophet.(Im saying "His", but according to Quran God has no gender.)
God did not born, or given birth. God is eternal.
God is free from human needs.(No eating,infinite knowledge,never getting bored etc.)
God sees/hears/knows everything.

Except from the gender and eternality parts(i saw some topics like "God is dead?") both religions was pretty muech saying same thing i guess.now for the Jesus and Holy Spirit:

The first miracle of Jesus is that he has no father, Maria gave him birth without any father.

Jesus is His prophet and messenger, God sends revelations(i guess this is not the exact word, but i mean messages from God by revelations) via Holy Spirit(?).

For the diffrence on understanding of Holy Sipirit:
Gods sends revelations via the -one of 4 Archangels- Gabriel. Gabriel can be in any shape, can be visible/invisible to humans or just only His voice can be heard. There are events like "A stranger comes in to room while Mohammed and some beilevers were sitting, and delivers a message from God. Other asks to Prophet, "who he was?" He replies, "He was Gabriel." means they saw him., and some other like Mohammed only hears him."(Btw, angels dont have a gender too.)
IDK if Holy Spirit and Archangle Gabriel are diffrent things in Bible, but this basically, who delivers revelations and who Gabriel is.

And While Jesus was still on earth, Bible was the God's word, but then a traitor(or an agent,dont know that part much)betrayed Jesus and his followers, but God didnt let Messiah Jesus die, God raised Jesus to himself. They thought they killed Jesus, but they didnt. (im not sure if this is from Quran or not -i guess not-, it's said that God showed them the traitor in the image of Jesus and they killed the traitor not Jesus). Some day Messiah Jesus will come back. But after(idk how long) Jesus leaves, people edited the Bible with their own will and understanding, which caused religion to start to getting out of order.

for other Archangels,
(Azrail) Archangel Azrael : the angel of death (never named as Azrail in Quran, only stated as Archangel of Death.)
(Mikail) Archangel Mikhael(or Michael): the angel that is responsible from the nature and natural events on the universe.
(Cebrail) Archangel Gabriel: The angel that delivers messages and orders of the God to His Prophets
(Israfil) Archangel Israfel (same with Raphael i guess.): The angel that will wiffle the trump of doom when the day comes.

God dont die,get hungry,get bored.
Knows/Controls/Created everything, including you.



well at least something related to thread

According to Quran Bible shouldnt be teaching that the Jesus is god.

if anyone gets harrassed/insulted from this post, i wouldnt mind and understand if this gets deleted.

@julz: my god, what a nonsense. you aren't denying that jesus is god's son, but to disprove me, you say all people are god's creation, and jesus was made as god's mirror-like reflection so he is technically his son and not his son at the same time O.o and what does it have to do with his statement, if he says he's "his son", why do you need him to say, "i'm not god"?

the statement the he is god's son is right at the very beginning, f.i. mark 1,1 and matthew 1,1.

if jesus was god, so you are technically saying that god himself was crucified in golgatha? wow, that's crude. so nitzsche was right after all: god is dead, and he died because his mercy for us (agnus dei, qui tollis peccata mundi).


@ quadraxas: thanks, very interesting, well-thought and informative post. it's nice to have some insights on islam beyond that television horror show we get every day.

@ dooley who wrote after me: i really like your post. instead of making just plain words, you prove your point with examples and excerpts. i like it.

As Salamu Alaikum Quadraxas - I'm a Muslim too.

For the rest of you guys, that means 'peace be upon you'.

Your post is most welcome here. However, the topic is if the Bible teaches whether or not Jesus is God, not the Quran. I have another thread about whether the Bible or the Quran is true:
http://www.coniserver.net/ubb7/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=241339#Post241339



Thanks for your contribution. This is a very valid point, however the meaning of this verse is not as clear as you may suppose. Look at this translation of the same passages from the RSV (Revised Standard Version)

"They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 9:4-5)

This is a very different statement, I am not 100% sure which is the correct translation, but even if the NIV is correct, there's more to consider. Read this passage fron the Gospel of John:

JN 10:30 (Jesus says)I and the Father are one."
JN 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
JN 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"
JN 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?
JN 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),
JN 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
JN 10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
JN 10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

The verse of the Torah which Jesus was referring to is Psalms 82:6-7, where it is stated:

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."

The point is that the word used for 'god' in this context is 'Elohim' which is used to refer to the One God, but also to people in positions of power, i.e. Judges etc...

Jesus is referencing this verse, when he makes the claim that he is the son of God, and when he says thet he and the father are one. Why?

This statement is clearly a denial of any claim to divinity. In this context all of us are sons of God, and Jesus is no different.

There are many other verses where Jesus himself denies being God.

@broozar: you misunderstand. i was describing how Jesus saying He's God's Son doesn't mean He's saying He's not God.

i preceded that with a verse indicating that the Bible does say He's God, though Dooley has just pointed out that this translation is not consistent, which i'm about to look more into before responding again.

don't be so quick to retaliate, broozar. just because you don't understand, doesn't make it nonsense.

julz

i read it and didn't see any denial.

this is my interpretation of the passage, with a little bit of context on either end; show me where your interpretation differs so we can compare:

having been asked if He's the Christ, Jesus tells the Jews that He has already told them, and that He is the giver of eternal life, followed by "I and the Father are one" -- effectively [Jesus = God].

appalled by this claim to divinity, the Jews prepare to stone Him, so Jesus responds by asking which good deed He did (apparently the original Greek words refer more to the quality of the deeds than their miraculous nature) that warrants His stoning. they respond that His claim to be God is blasphemy, and so He must be stoned.

Jesus responds by pointing out that the Scripture refers to worldly rulers as 'gods', and if they can have that claim, how much more can the one the Father set apart (presumably as more than merely a worldly ruler)! He asks if He's being blasphemous by claiming to be God's Son and really has the works to support it, or perhaps more-so that He is not un-Godly in anything He does. "...the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (i would've thought a clear reference to His divinity).

having heard this, the Jews tried to punish Him anyway (presumably still believing He was claiming to be God), but Jesus escaped.

julz

for broozar:

My position is that I believe Jesus was a prophet, but that he never claimed to be God. I believe this is evident when one reads the Bible in a non-biased way.

If someone comes to the Bible with an existing conclusion, it's easy to read that conclusion into the text. This could be pretty much anything, from the trinity, to aliens, to lesbianism. However, these conclusions would never come from an honest reading of the text.

For me, you have to interprete scripture as a whole. The Old Testament makes it clear that God is immaterial, eternal, anyone who even sees Him will die, and He has a specific name -Yahwah.

Therefore, for Jesus to claim he was God, as the Jews presumed, would be foolishness and blasphemy.

Therefore, with this context, I think Jesus' explanation can only be interpreted as: If God has already called those who recieved the scripture 'gods', and has named them 'children of the Most High', then my claim to be one with God, or the Son of God should be interpreted the same way, i.e. not a claim to divinity at all.

This is further compounded by many other statements of Jesus.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-17)

Here Jesus is questioning why the man called him good, when the only one worthy of this title is God. If he was claiming to be God, he would have accepted this attribution without question.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 13:32)

Here Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and God. If God is the only one who knows the hour of judgement, and Jesus is claiming to be God, then he should not have made this distinction.

Before you respond to these explanations, because I've probably heard them before, try to look at the whole picture that the Bible presents. There is a huge contradiction between the concept of God in the Old Testament and that in the New.

God is One, this is the biggest message of the Old Testament. It's the first Commandment, and the most important. Jesus himself makes this clear. If Paul's claim is intended as you have expressed, then God would no longer be One. God would be two, Father and Son. However, the church did not end here, they went on to claim that the Holy Spirit is also God, which makes God three. This is not the same religion as was taught in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

The Hebrew word for LORD is Yahweh which is God's covenant name (with Israel) "I Am"

Jesus said He existed before Abraham and referred to Himself as I Am.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

The Jews knew that Jesus was saying He was God. That was why they wanted to stone him.

John 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10
30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

The Hebrew word for "God" used in Deuteronomy 6:4 is "Eloheim" which is plural. The Hebrew word for "one" used there is "echad" which is also plural, as in one bunch of grapes. There is another Hebrew word for one which is "yachid" which is singular, as in one grape, but God uses "echad" because of the plurality of the Godhead.

The plurality of God in the OT:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Genesis 11:7
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."


Yes, Jesus asked the man why he called Him good because only God is good, and Jesus was making a point. Why was the man calling Jesus good if He was only a man?

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The man goes on to tell Jesus that he has kept the commandments from his youth and asks Jesus what else he needs to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus tells him to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor and follow Him, but the man went away sad because he wanted to hold on to his wealth and the things of this world. Jesus goes on to tell his disciples that whoever will give up the things of this world (family, money, etc.) and follow Him will have eternal life. In other words believe/trust/have faith in Jesus (God) not money, family and the things of this world.

Also, Isaiah 9:6 and Micah 5:2 which are OT Messianic prophecies are very clear that the Messiah is to be God.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Micah 5:2
“ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”

Jesus says He is the Messiah.

John 4:25-26 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Isaiah 53 clearly shows that Messiah will come and die for our sins.

These verses also clearly show that the bible claims that Jesus is God and that Jesus claims to be God.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made...14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

1 post from me just to chime in:

broozar you missed the point. In our religion, and according to the bible God IS everything, God created everything. It is a bit hard to explain other than saying that everything is made up of God. When he created, he created using himself, he spoke it into existance. For instance John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word (God's word), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." in other words this is saying that God spoke, his word was him and he was his word, therefore God and his word(creations and laws) are one. John also says in 1:2 that "He was with God in the beginning." "he" refers to Jesus, whom is his son but also God. It is hard to explain to a non-christian simply because you would have to read the words that Jesus spoke as well as the Gospels themselves to fully understand. Hopefully this will help you understand the belief:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

The belief is that God is God the father(creator), God the son (Jesus Christ) and God the holy spirit (comforter/helper). They are all one person and yet three...like I said maybe the link will help, but you have to understand one thing, in our faith God is not bound by physical constraints, the world in which he exists is spiritual, so we'll never know 100% about God.

ok...two posts:

Jesus was merely saying that he is currently in flesh. Later on, Jesus ascended to the right hand of God after his ressurection. Jesus only stated that he was not good because of himself being of flesh at the time, Jesus was born into sin, meaning he was born as a human being and after the whole deal with adam and eve man's nature has been sin, but Jesus never COMMITED sin. Therefore, by being born into sin on this earth he could not be called "good" when compared to God while being here.

i agree with smitty for that point

Jesus was asking the question forcing the man to clarify what he was asking.
you call me good? only God is good.
basically therefore: do you call me God and are you willing to listen to what i say?

I know that this thread is about does the bible really teach that Jesus IS God (not was, because Jesus DID rise from the dead and IS very much alive and without the resurrection we would have no hope), but the subject of the Holy Spirit has been brought up so I must interject here and say that the Holy Spirit like the Father (who is also Spirit) and Jesus (the Son or same as God) is also God and not just some force or something. The bible clearly states that God is One, but the bible also makes clear that God is three "persons".

Here are some OT references to the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God):

Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Exodus 31:3
"I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,

Exodus 35:31
"And He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding and in knowledge and in all craftsmanship;

Numbers 24:2
And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him.

1 Samuel 10:10
When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 11:6
Then the Spirit of God came upon Saul mightily when he heard these words, and he became very angry.

1 Samuel 19:20
Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied.

1 Samuel 19:23
He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

2 Chronicles 15:1
Now the Spirit of God came on Azariah the son of Oded,

2 Chronicles 24:20
Then the Spirit of God came on Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest; and he stood above the people and said to them, "Thus God has said, ' Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD and do not prosper? Because you have forsaken the LORD, He has also forsaken you.'"

Job 33:4
"The Spirit of God has made me,And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Ezekiel 11:24
And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God to the exiles in Chaldea So the vision that I had seen left me.

Here are some NT references of the Father and Holy Spirit:

Matthew 10:20
"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Matthew 28:19
" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Luke 10:21
At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Luke 11:13
" If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

John 14:16
[ Role of the Spirit ] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Acts 2:33
"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, " Abba! Father!"

Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

I've already explained that the word Eloheim in Hebrew is plural for God (because of the plurality of the Godhead/Trinity), but Elohiem can be translated as gods, too. JulzMighty's explanation of the verse was correct. Why does Jesus reference the verse when He makes the claim to be the Son of God and also when He says that He and the Father are one? Because He is saying that He is the Son of God (same as God) and that He is God (I and the Father are one).

I agree.



God is Spirit and we cannot look upon Him and live, but the Son (Jesus) came to earth veiled in the flesh of man, so we could look upon Him. By the way, He was NOT born into sin. He was born into a sinful world, but because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, Jesus was born without sin because the sin nature is past down through man (Adam). Jesus was tempted like us, but He never sinned because He is God. Even in the OT, the pre-incarnate Christ came to earth on more than one occasion. He walked with Adam in the cool of the day. He came to Abraham to announce that Sarah would give birth to the promised son (Isaac) and that He was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, He wrestled with Jacob and changed His name to Israel.



It was neither foolish nor blasphemy. Some did not recognize who Jesus was because they did not know the scriptures. Jesus even told the leaders of Israel this. Many did believe on Him (and still do today).



Jesus is fully God, but He was also fully man. He is referring here to his humanity, but being God He does know evertything. He is also pointing the people's thinking to God, so that once they understand that He is God, then they will understand that He knows everything.

Your claim is that the Bible teaches that God is three distinct personalities, i.e. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

In the Old Testament, God's name is mentioned often. It is YHWH. This has been translated as LORD in most English Bibles. However, it is not a title, it is a name...

Exodus 3:15:
God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, `The YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

Exodus 15:1-3
"I will sing to the YHWH, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea. The YHWH is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him. The YHWH is a man of war; the YHWH is his name.

Exodus 33:19-20 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name `The YHWH'; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But," he said, "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."

Deuteronomy 4:12-19 Then the YHWH spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice. And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the YHWH commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, that you might do them in the land which you are going over to possess.
"Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the YHWH spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. And beware lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and worship them and serve them, things which the YHWH your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

Zechariah 14:9
The YHWH will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one YHWH, and his name the only name.

But certainly the Bible also teaches that Jesus (a man) was God, right?

Job 25:2-6 "Dominion and fear are with God; he makes peace in his high heaven. Is there any number to his armies? Upon whom does his light not arise? How then can man be righteous before God? How can he who is born of woman be clean? Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"

Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

Was Jesus really claiming to be the same being as this YHWH?

John 8:28-30 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me. And he who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him." As he spoke thus, many believed in him.

John 8:42-43 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say?

Yes, you can assume that Jesus' was hinting, and making suggestions that he was God. However, it's obvious to see that he was denying such an idea. The fact is that some of these verses have to be interpreted figuratively, in order to understand them.

Either the YHWH of the Old Testament was speaking figuratively, or Jesus was speaking figuratively. Without the understanding that parts of the Bible are meant to be figurative, it will not make sense at all.

Who do you suppose was speaking figuratively, YHWH or Jesus?

John 16:25
These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs (figuratively): but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs (figuratively), but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

The time will come when Jesus will speak plainly about WHO? About the Father. About God, about YHWH.

About the plural 'We' used in the Old Testament is a well known issue to anyone who understands the Semetic languages. There is a plural of number, and there is a plural of respect. Even old English uses this, like when the Queen says "We are not amused!"

Using this to prove multiple gods, or multiple persons within God, is not clear enough to overcome the much more exact numerical description of God given in the Bible.

Mark 12:29-30 Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'

More references that Jesus is God:

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Footnotes:
Isaiah 7:14 Literally God-With-Us

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 8:8
He will pass through Judah,
He will overflow and pass over,
He will reach up to the neck;
And the stretching out of his wings
Will fill the breadth of Your land, O Immanuel.

Footnotes:
Isaiah 8:8 Literally God-With-Us

@mpdeveloper:


yeah, that's 2 totally different points to me.

- "god created us", yes, i can follow that one and believe in it (not in terms of "he took a rip and made the woman", but something like "he made the universe, now it's onto us to make something out of it").
- "god is everything", i refuse to believe that. and i'd like you to show me a part of the new testament where it's said this way. "god is everything" puts a soul in everything and everyone, assumes a greater principle behind everything that is going on. but there is not, not for me. you HAVE the choice of either slamming your fist into your oppnent's face, or talk to him. there is no god in wars. there is no god in my ipod. and, probably, there is no god in those who claim to be the closest to god and fulfil his wish: fundamentalists, terrorists, racists, the one or the other priest.

Yes, whenever you see LORD in caps in the Old Testament, it is YHWH which in Hebrew is "I Am" which is the covenant name for God between God and Israel (the Jews), but even in the Old Testament God has many names.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.cfm



This is referring to men who are born of man and woman, not Jesus who was born of a woman and conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 3
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;

This is the very first Messianic prophecy in the Old Testament. God is telling the serpent (Satan) that He is going to put enmity between him and the Seed of the woman. The seed usually comes through the man, so this is not going to be an ordinary man who is to be born.



Yes, Jesus was really claiming to be YHWH. Again Jesus is pointing to the Father (YHWH) and saying that He is sent by the Father and the things He does are of the Father. These very verses that you just quoted clearly show that Jesus is saying that He and the Father are one, that Jesus is equal to the Father, and that Jesus is God.




I am not assuming anything. I know exactly Whom Jesus is refering to and I believe Him. Jesus was not just hinting or suggesting that He is God. The Jewish leaders knew exactly what He was saying. Most of them did not believe Him because they did not know or believe the scriptures as Jesus told them on more than one occasion. That is why they wanted to stone Him. These verses do not need to be and should not be interpreted figuratively to understand them. In fact they should be interpreted literally as YHWH/Jesus means them to be. Yes, sometimes Jesus spoke figuratively. He knows who will and will not believe Him. Jesus said, I am the bread of life. Did He mean He is literally bread? No, He is using the physical to describe the spiritual. Just as we need food for physical life, we need Jesus/God for eternal life. Jesus said, I am the door. Does that mean He is a door? No, He means He is the door (way) to eternal life.



John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.



I have heard this before too and it does not wash. God does not need to use plural words like Eloheim (God), echad (one), We or Us to gain respect. He is God. That's enough. The bible is the word of God and is God breathed, meaning the Holy Spirit filled the prophets so they knew what to write. Either you believe that or you do not. It is as simple as that.




Yes, Jesus wants us to put God first and worship Him alone. Jesus is God.

broozar,

Have you been following this thread at all?

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Believe it or not. We all have the choice.

yes, i have been following, and i usually read before i reply and think twice about if it's worth to contribute. so thanks for you concern.

your quote says, that he made everything (things made through us may count, if you want to), which is fine with me. not that he is everything, which still makes a huge difference to me. "All things were made through Him". not "god dissociated himself into everything and everyone and made it a spiritual, worthy, justified thing/being". or prove me the god in the war on terror or the god in my ipod. and don't tell me again that it's written in john 1.

I do not worship the god of the war on terror or the god of your ipod.

broozar, I owe you an apology. I went back and read mpdeveloper_B's post again. I agree with most of what he said, but I do not know what he meant by God IS everything. Maybe he can explain that. Also, I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, since they are all the one same God, but three persons, all took part as The Creator. Again, I apologize. I am the one who did not read the thread carefully.

no offense taken

since this has become some sort of a Trinity thread, i'd really like to hear your views on the Holy Spirit, what is means to you, how it manifests, and why it is "needed" when there is a God and his Son. The Holy Spirit is probably one of the most interesting, yet hard to understand concepts of the christian religion, and for many it remains unclear why we celebrate Pentecost.

Thank you for being so gracious. I believe the bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a "person" and equal to God the Father and God the Son. It is a hard concept for even believers to comprehend that there is one God who is three persons. Man is finite and God is infinite, and His thoughts and ways are much higher than ours. I posted some verses earlier in this thread that refer to the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and New Testament. In the Old Testament, the Spirit would only indwell believers at certain times for God's purpose. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit began to indwell believers permanently. The filling of the Holy Spirit is something that all New Testament believers can experience on a day to day basis as we obey and walk closely with the Lord by following the leading of the Holy Spirit who indwells us. The Holy Spirit is not an "it". He is the third person of the Godhead. He has always existed with the Father and Son.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. The Holy Spirit also enables us to understand the word of God. That is why it is necessary to be saved (born again) to understand the bible.

I believe that the Bible teaches that God is One. This is a direct quote.

"Holy spirit is a person" - please explain where this belief came from.

"equal to God" - The Holy Spirit is definitely mentioned in the Bible, but is never equated with God to my knowledge.

"God the Son" - Your own words, where is this phrase used in the Bible?

How can three be equal to one? This belief of yours, if indeed derived from the Bible, clearly contradicts the first commandment. They did not say 'there is one God', they said 'God is One'. They did not say 'God is Three', they said 'God is One'. I'm not talking about priests or rabbis or monks either, I'm talking about Moses and Jesus. If Moses and Jesus agree that 'God is One', where is there any room for these other two 'persons'?



You have imposed this understanding on the verse, rather than trying to understand what was said. He said, to paraphrase 'I don't even know, only God knows...' He is telling us that he is not God.

Also, you have used as evidence for Jesus' claim to divinity, the fact that he claimed to be the Christ. Christ is a Greek word which means 'anointed' or 'chosen', it is the Greek word for 'Messiah'.

I agree that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah, this is even in the Quran. However, it does not serve as evidence for Jesus' divinity. Messiah's are a dime - a dozen in the Old Testament. David was a Messiah, Saul was a Messiah, Zerubabbel was a Messiah, Joshua was a Messiah. There are plenty more.

My understanding of all this is that claims of Jesus' divinity are based on verses which can be interpreted in many ways. However, the statements about YHWH are clear and concise, and should be heeded above the ambiguous verses about Jesus.

Also, YHWH is a different word than I AM in Hebrew. Jesus never claimed to be YHWH... This is according to Strong's Hebrew dictionary.

YHWH
3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069. see HEBREW for 01961 see HEBREW for 03050 see HEBREW for 03069

I AM
1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use. see HEBREW for 01933

The First commandment sums it up. If believing that Jesus is God, or that he died for our sins was so central to the teachings of the Bible, Jesus would have said it clearly, it should be the first commandment. When he was asked how to achieve eternal life, He said that the first and greatest commandment was to love God, then started listing off commandments (just like Moses). No mention of crucifixion, no mention of the Son or Holy Spirit being equal to God.

I hope I'm not offending anyone with my comments, it's just seems like you guys are taking a few things that Paul wrote, and imposing them on the rest of the Bible.

The personality of the Holy Spirit.

The bible speaks of the mind of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:27 (King James Version)
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The bible speaks of the will of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:11 (King James Version)
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

He is often described as speaking directly to men in the book of Acts. During Paul's second missionary journey the apostle was forbidden by the Spirit to visit a certain mission field,

Acts 16:6-7 (King James Version)
6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

and then Paul was instructed to proceed toward another field of service.

Acts 16:10 (King James Version)
And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

It was God's Spirit who spoke directly to Christian leaders in the Antioch church, commanding them to send Paul and Barnabas on their first missionary journey.

Acts 13:2 (King James Version)
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

The deity of the Holy Spirit.

He is not only a real person, but He is also God. As is God the Father, He too is everywhere at once.

Psalm 139:7 (King James Version)
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

As the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit has also existed forever.

Hebrews 9:14 (King James Version)
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

He is often referred to as God in the bible.

Acts 5:3-4 (King James Version)
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son. This is seen during the baptism of Christ,

Matthew 3:16-17 (King James Version)
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

and is mentioned by Jesus Himself just prior to His ascension from the Mount of Olives.

Matthew 28:19-20 (King James Version)
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.



The title Son of God is one which Jesus never directly applied to Himself, but when others applied it to Him Jesus willingly accepted it as a claim to His own deity. (John 10:24-38)

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 16:15-17 (King James Version)

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.




I already explained this earlier in this thread. The Hebrew for God is Eloheim which is plural. The Hebrew for One is also plural. How can three be equal to One? With God all things are possible. I was not brought up to believe in Jesus or the Holy Spirit. I did go to any church or sit under the teaching of any man or woman. I asked God to show me if the bible is true and if Jesus Christ is the Messiah/Savior and the only way to heaven. The Holy Spirit is the only one who is able to reveal the truth of God's word, but we have to really want to know the truth, keep seeking after Him and keep asking Him to show us His truth. Only God knows our hearts and knows if we are truly seeking Him or if we have already made up our minds. Yes, one can say that it is my belief, but either Jesus is who He claims to be, or He was a liar or a madman. It is clear to me in the verses I have already posted earlier in this thread that Jesus is saying He is God, but of course I have the Holy Spirit indwelling in me to reveal the truth of scripture. Like I said, only He can show you the truth.



No, I have not imposed this understanding. I understand exactly what Jesus is saying and I believe every word He says.



Christ (Greek) and Messiah (Hebrew) are only used for the one and only Annoited One who was promised to come from the line of David. There is and was no other. There were "types" of the Messiah in the Old Testament, just as their have been types of anti-christs (false messiahs) throughtout history.



Again, what Jesus says is not ambiguous at all to those of us who are born of the Spirit and know Him personally as our Savior.



YHWH most certainly does mean I am. In Hebrew it has no vowels but it is clearly understood to mean I am.

Jesus does not say "I am YHWH", but He makes it very clear that He is saying that He and YHWH are one and the same. He said I and the Father are one. He said before Abraham was, I am. He said I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6) Like I said, He is either who He claims to be, or He was a liar or a lunatic.



Again, Jesus spoke in parables because He knew who would believe Him and who had already made up their minds and would not believe Him. The same is still true today. If you want to know the truth then He will show you, but if you have already made up your mind, then you are not truly seeking the truth.




I can only speak for myself. You have not offended me at all. I pray that you will seek the truth with all your heart. If you believe you have already found the truth in the Quran or anyone other than Jesus Christ, then you are sadly mistaken. If I offend you or anyone by saying this, then I am sorry for offending, but the fact is that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him. He said it, not me. Believe it or not. It is your choice. By the way, Paul was Christ's greatest opponent. He persecuted Christians and had them put to death. It was not until the Lord physically blinded him and spoke to him on the road to Damascus that Paul began to seek the truth and became a believer. Paul knew the Old Testament scriptures well, but did not believe them until he met the risen Savior. God used Paul to write much of the New Testament.

This will be my last post. My husband has asked me not to come to this website again, and I willingly submit to him according to the word of God. I pray you will all read the gospel of John as well as the rest of the bible and keep asking God (the Greek means to keep asking) to show you if it is true. You have everything to lose. Merry Christmas and God bless.

smitty

Ephesians 5:21-23 (King James Version)

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Let me tweak your claim ;

I would argue that the Bible does not clearly express the notion that Jesus is... good.

Even most atheists would answer :
No you are wrong , he was a good person
And they would be right

However some part of the new testament have alwayes baffled me :

Jesus is passing by a fig tree
He wants to eat a fig but it is not the right season for figs
" Be damned for ever, let nobody eat your fruits anymore " Jesus said and the poor tree dries up

What's the meaning of such a sad parable ?

Of course I have no doubt that teologians knows the answer

Are there any other Christians out there who can answer for Smitty?

If it's all about being indwelled by the Spirit, why would God have bothered sending down a book at all. Especially a book as confusing and contradictory as the Bible?

I was raised catholic. The way it was taught to me is that god simultaneously is God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. How? God magic I guess.

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3022

Cheers

This concept was decided hundreds of years after Jesus and Paul and the people of the Bible were around, by the Council of Nicaea (check spelling). There was a huge controversy between the Roman Catholic Church, which taught the Trinity, and the Unitarian Christians, who believed that Jesus was a prophet, led by Arius.

This was the original cause of division between the Western (Roman) Church, and the Eastern (Byzantine) Church. However, the Trinitarians were far more cunning and ruthless, and they ended up suppressing the Unitarian ideas, and forcing Catholicism on the whole bunch.

The Trinity is not taught in the Bible.

I think it's about being ready for your meeting with God. If you meet God when you are not ready (i.e. in a state of unrepentant sinfulness), like the fig tree wasn't ready for Jesus, you're likely to hear similar words...

I agree that it's a bit harsh on the fig tree, who really had no choice in the matter, it's just a guess.

or simply he was a great man with his weakness

Let's see also the positive side ( from a religious point of view )

The existance of Jesus Christ is not supported by hystorical evidences but if the gospels tell also this human like events probably he was a real person

What would you regard as historical evidence?

A whole bunch of books written about a person, by people who either knew him, or had heard of him from others, seems like historical evidence to me.

Something like this could be considered historical evidence, but not necessarily. For example, I could write a fictional tale about a friend of mine and someone could discover it a thousand years from now. But this would not make it evidence to any real truth, would it? This is one of the problems with history and historical documents. Many of them are very doctored up with tales. Kings would often have embarrassing made to look less embarrassing or to look quite the opposite in any historical writings that took place in their life time, etc.

There is also the problem of validating if indeed the writer of a document was really a person that actually knew the individual they wrote about. It was often very popular in ancient times to write stories about well known people (fictitious or otherwise) and to even publish a work in a famous person's name. An example of this is the book of Enoch. The book claims to have been written by Enoch, the famous individual from the book of Genesis, but it is many hundreds of years newer than Enoch would have been.

This sort of thing causes problems for Bible scholars as well. For example, the various books of the Bible are attributed to specific authors. The Gospels, for example, are said to have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. However, it is a matter of debate (even among Christian scholars) as to who actually wrote them and even WHEN they were written. So was Matthew written by the disciple of Jesus who knew him or by someone else? And even if many consider it to be written by Matthew, how would we know if it wasn't written by someone writing in his name?

The same problems are there for the Qur'an as well. Who wrote what? And how do we know for certain that such-and-such is really the author?

Contemporary writings do factor into history, for sure. However, they can be problematic and, as such, are not completely reliable. Even if they contain truth, this does not mean that everything they say is truth. For example, people derive historical concepts from books like the Iliad, but don't believe in the monsters therein.

If there's one thing research often shows, it's how unreliable even the more credible of history books are.

You should really ask yourself why in your opinion the bible somehow must be historical. I personally don't see why people want the bible to be historical, when in reality it doesn't matter if those stories are real or fake when it comes to the things you could possibly learn from in the bible.



It gets better, often people interpret texts in such a way that they believe it somehow supports a certain truth. It doesn't work like that when it comes to truth finding, you've either got to go with a literal interpretation or expose of the idea it might be historical. Looking at how unspecific the bible often is, it's a bit funny to look at it as historical.

Cheers

PHeMox,

Remember, Dooley does not believe the Bible to be historical. He does believe this concerning the Qur'an, though.

Ah, yes, I had missed that.

Cheers

Exodus 4:16 "King James Version" for those who insist upon it. They all say he same thing!
And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

When verses in the bible refer to Jesus being God, it is in a similar way that Moses was God to Aaron and the israelite people in general. Indeed, Moses was an foretype of jesus, a prophetic reference.
This can be seen from the texts alread mentioned where Jesus denies being God, even when directly challenged.

Interesting also is
1Corrinthians 15:24-28 Again, the "King James version" but they all say the same thing.
024: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
025: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
026: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
027: For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
028: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Verse 28: When the time that Jesus is as God for us (humans), comes to an end, then Jesus will subject himself to God in order for God to take his rightful place as God to all, including us.

The bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not God but is standing in the place of God untill the damage caused by Adam and Eve, who brought sin and death upon us all, is completely undone.

Wow, that's quite a stretch. In the Lord of the Rings book there are also very much human like events being told... still doesn't mean Frodo is real.



This is merely evidence of how the stories surrounding the character were very popular, when it comes to people that could have known Jesus, there are NO historical references at all though, so this is hardly proof at all. Let alone the fact that Jesus obtained all kinds of additional properties in texts many centuries later. Remember the whole who was Jesus debate? From race, hair color/style, appearance, sex, relationships, all the way down to his alleged supernatural powers... texts don't agree, let alone people all over the world. There's really not much known at all....

There are some historical references that could have been about Jesus, but they are far from obvious, nor do they say anything useful/relevant.

my (last?) post in this thread:

The statement: God IS everything means that God made everything of himself. I don't mean that you should look at your Ipod and go "hello God". God created all. Period. Call it the Big Bang or whatever, In the beginning, before the point mentioned in the bible where "the earth was void and without form" God created everything. Space, planets, stars, etc. When God created everything here he had angels. One angel, Lucifer, decided to take on God, therefore being kicked out of heaven and forced into hell. Now God made all, he did not make the people evil, he just made the people. The people choose what they want to do, God doesn't make every decision for you and he won't lead you by the hand through life. We have choices, so all those racists and self-justifying murderers are still creations of God, they are just choosing a very wrong way of living. Call me crazy or whatever, but God didn't MAKE those people to be that way, he didn't force them to be jerks. God made free will for everyone to be able to choose what they want to do. If God at any time took at least one bit of free will we'd have no more free will and God would become a dictator, but instead he chooses to let us live the way we WILL. God is not a dictator, and will never become one. The fact the people can choose not to believe in a god of any form is proof of that.

These are the Seven Truths:

Jesus was God.
Jesus is God.
Jesus will be God.
Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus existed.
Jesus exists.
Jesus will exist.

Sounds complicated. For someone to be his own son, he needs to do awful things, knocking up his own mother and even then its difficult...

Nowhere in the bible is a claim of Jesus to be a god. This was invented much later by the church. It is very doubtful that Jesus even claimed to be the son of a god. The gospels were written about 100 AD and none of their authors knew Jesus personally, so all they wrote was hearsay.

Or, as Douglas Adams said, all it takes is an accident involving a warm lunch, a condom and a time machine.

No condom, in that case.

But... thats what Adams wrote
I think there might occur some interferences with the warm lunch... but to be honest, I have not the slightest idea about the act of holy copulation... except from what I hear in the news, but I think thats a different and more earthly thing...