Why do you or don't you believe in God(s)?

Hey guy's! I'm not really interested in what you believe in, I'm more curious in figuring out why you choose to believe in what ever it is that you believe. Let's try not to attack anyone, there is no right and wrong here.

...
I guess I'll go first O_o'.
Okay I don't believe in God. About 3-4 years ago one of my professors told me about how a long time ago woman were worshipped as gods. The reason was because they gave birth, and the belief at that time was that only gods could self replicate. Since we didn't understand the whole sex and waiting 9 months concept, we associated it with a god. When we don't understand something we need to make some kind of reasoning up for it, either through stories or blaming a specific greater being.

Another reason I don't believe in god is because I don't believe in heaven or hell (especially hell). I don't believe in heaven because it doesn't make any logical sense to me. Why live 60-90 years, then die just so you can live again some where else. I believe in functionalism and I just don't see the true function of why there must be a heaven for us to exist.
Hell on the flip side makes absolutely no sense to me. If God is our father, why would he make a place you go to be punished for all of eternity. The way I see it, if my son did something wrong (no matter how bad) I wouldn't punish him for ever! I mean think of how timeless heaven and hell would be. Even if I sin every second of my entire short life of 120 years, how can you justify AND INTERNETY of punishment? It just doesn't make logical sense to me.

Okay guys your turn, have fun. PS... http://orangoo.com/spell/

I don't believe in god because i believe in logical thinking and science.

I believe that their is no proof of existence of god, yet there is proof of things like evolution which directly contradicts part of the bible.

I do believe in god, and here are a few reasons I was able to translate:

evolution, or the the ability to change yourself to fit in
the environment could be really difficult to program, to invent, to make. you could look towards it as a mechanism for keeping live changing, and dynamic

the believing in god does not have to be against logical
thinking and science. it fits perfectly on the things we know now, dependend on how you see it.

if there was evolution, why fossils do not show it? why they do not show a simple blending from shape a to shape b?
btw. this would make it impossible to name them!

If there was no god, and live was evolved, some things would have been more simple, why cant we get children just like bacteries?
why would we have to see colors?
why we can taste food?
why we can understand maths and abstract thinking?
why we can understand music, and art?
why we are able to love others? this is not needed for evolution, and can even stand in the way of 'survival of the fittest'

if there was evolution, the live that would be evolved could easyly get stuck somewhere, and everything would die,
especially on the earth of 4.5 billion years ago

there is said that an ancient earth is against the bible, this does not have to be, dependent on how you read it.

in genesis the creation is described. in a logical order, and with facts that people could not now 3000 years ago.
i.e. there is said the sun is bigger than the moon, which is true, but from earth they seem to have the same size.
some things are let out, like the creation of bacteries and micro organisms, and dinosours, which are just counted like
animals.

why man would have invented a god that forbids things?
even ancient religions(that don't exist anymore) feature laws that are exactly what people want.

there are far more reasons, but these are a few I could translate in understandable english

about hell, it can not even exist, the hell where everyone is punished after dead
does not even exist, in some other parts of the bible there is said that the dead do not feel any pain, joy, and can't do anything.
when the bible talks about hell, it should be symbolical then.


personally I've never seen proof of evolution which directly
contradicts parts of the bible

sorry for my bad english!

But if he didnt believe in you and he would allways (well not allways but a lot)do what you told him
you also would be very angry.And you would end up in big trubles.
And maybe you also would say "got to hell" <-- thats also a statement that people just say without thinking, if they say "go to hell" they believe in hell and they know they have to go there because they did something wrong. That could make someone thinking.

And I also beilieve in god because "Evolution" or the "Big Bang" even sounds more fantastic and I do think that It needs a lot more strenght to believe in Evolution then in "creation (imagine yourself building something with clay)".
And if there was "Evolution" why did it stop. why arent there any people looking like apes or why arent there any high-technology people?

I admit that there are some people have only 4 fingers or something like that but that can be proven that people today just dont anymore need the small finger or so.

also why I believe in God is that there are so many texts of the bible found in caves and they still find them today and thats just such a big proof.

Last Idea:
I think that everything fits what the bible says but people are just too blind to see.
The bible says if you read it:

- The people will destroy their own world (climatisation?)

- cristians wont be able to buy anything if anti-christ is on earth:
more and more the big bank have to give up their positions and this all will lead to one big "World-Wide-Bank" and then we maybe wont be able to buy anything.

- The bible also tells us that there will allways be war in the holy land
but if war is over Jesus will come and look how much war there has been now between all those eastern states

I also believe in God because I allready have lived so mayn miracels and he helped me throught reall tough times (Well that may wont be a good reason for a non-christian)

best regards

Aztec

Evolution has nothing to do with technology (something aztec said) and evolution takes millions of years so how can you say "why did it stop", when we wouldn't know about it as it is so slow.

Also Roel evolution is physical so things like love are not a part of it that is just something we as humans have developed.

"if there was evolution, why fossils do not show it?"

What would you like fossils to show? Maybe a slideshow of each stage.

Again evolution takes millions of years to occur it is not instantaneous, and how would you see a evolution taking place as it is one species evolving (changing) into a different one so you would only be able to see similar species.
Fossils show animals in one form and then the same animal with variations.
Also if evolution didn't exist why would animals share similarities.

I don't believe in any God, because I also think our Gods have been an invention of early times. The lack of logic and truth-finding behind certain religious rules or often even the whole belief system also makes me very much doubt everything 'they' come up with. So much that I often think God isn't even an actual (theoretical) possibility anymore.

To sum up how I feel about the more modern religions: "It's like saying Frodo from Lord of the Rings must have been real and must have had supernatural powers, you know.. having hair on his feet and all. Oh, and doing what he did, destroying the Ring. The wise Tolkien must have known that 'God' in person, hence why he wrote about it in a thick book."

I'm sure people can understand why it's just ...uhm stupid to give a book this much credibility, reading this much into what was written.

In the end, there's really not one thing about religion that makes sense to me, except how it's modern-day purpose seems to be to control large groups of people. Oh and scoring a big bunch o' easy soul-points by helping out the poor(est?) people.

Apparently people rather believe in false promises and in exchange keep on muddying on, instead of daring to change their lives and become truly happy people instead.

@Roel: All your arguments have been refuted many times before, even on this very forum (do a search ).

From 'fossils not showing evolution'; they actually do quite clearly show evolution but it's a gradual process and you're looking at only one moment in time, to how 'complexity' in your opinion is a sign that there must have been supernatural forces at work.

You know, you should ask yourself whether or not there is proof for what you do believe in, instead of sort of blindly stating other people are wrong with overused but 'wrong' arguments... because basically that's what you're doing here. I'm not attacking you here, I'm just giving my opinion, so no offense to you.



Proof of people having enough imagination to think of stories and enough technology to preserve their ideas on paper.

It still doesn't matter what was written down though, especially if archaeological research time and time again does not support those texts as being historic.

Also... why did they exclude those documents from the Bible if they are 'authentic'? In reality most of those texts are philosophical in nature, a bit like essays on the questions involved in forging new or better religious ideas. There's a good bunch of contradiction going on for a good reason,

Cheers

@testDummy; , i won't even pretend to understand what you said

First of all, I believe in logic and reasoning, thus I follow science. I believe the Big Bang occurred, I believe that we were developed through millenia of evolution.

I also believe that there was a historical Jesus and I do believe in the teachings of Jesus, as a philosopher. I don't believe the myths are literal truths, but I bet there are historical truths behind them.

Ex, the feeding of the 5000. A nun once told my religion class in high school (private catholic high school, they taught evolution!) that perhaps, everyone brought food and it was Jesus who inspired them all to share.

I do however, believe that his teachings have merit.

I do not take any part of the bible literally and I only use the OT as a background story for the NT, nothing more.

However, I question the divinity and I don't know if a God exists. There is nothing, no evidence that leads me to believe in a god.

But the complexity of life and the complexity of the universe makes me wonder if there is one. This isn't proof of course, but it just makes me wonder.

I'm an agnostic. I try to follow Jesus's teachings, but I do not really worship him. I don't fully believe in a god, but I question if one might exist. And I think people who make literal interpretations of the bible are foolish.

I agree with you here. I've never liked organized religion. It is too much brainwashing bullshit. I think if someone wants to be religious, it should be personal.

Too many wars have been fought over religion.

Look at Israel. Everyone wants that godforsaken strip of dirt because Islam, Judaism and Christianity started there.

Look at 9-11. 3000 innocent civilians killed because they worshiped the "wrong" god.

I'm raised Catholic, but I don't think that'll last longer. I don't see the purpose in Church or a pope or a set prayer like The Lords Prayer that people just say without meaning.

I don't see what is so important about God that makes people kill other people. Jesus said, judge not lest ye be judged, so I don't understand why so many "Christians" judge other people.



Mozilla built-in spellchecker FTW!

I partially agree with this, when you say that religion controls large groups of people, just for the money, you cant just say there is no god.
if there is a god looking from somewhere, he should be really angry about this




I agree with you a bit with this one, there are really big religions which do not let people even think for themselves. I think organized religion might make sense, it might help to discuss harder subjects with others, but people MUST be able to think for themselves.
If someone just believes things because he is told, his believe is useless!



I agree with this, and I don't think christians must not judge other people, it wont even make sense to the people that hear it.


I understand, and I agree with this, I did not search on the forum, but it is just to show some of the arguments I use. Are they all used? In fact I think there are even more arguments for creating, but it is impossible to find a master argument against evolution, or against creation.

what about prophecies that came true? all of the ones which had to came true, did. think about things in Jesus' live, and think about Matthew 24
matthew 24

I believe in god because i recognize the limits in logical thinking and science. Because there are always limits to our understanding. In my personal experience, few real modern European protestants will seriously dispute evolution. As for the beginning of the universe, even if it began with a big bang, you get the problem that *something* will/must have caused the big bang (or at least provided the constraints). Maybe, someday we will go one level further up and have a scientific explanation for what caused it, but then you go back one further layer and you will again be in unknown territory. At the very end of that infinite chain, is where I see god.
Furthermore, have no respect of the cognitive abilities of people who go by the book, line for line, phrase for phrase, unquestioning and uncritical. A book written by mere humans will have the limits of humans. Don't even get me started on organized religion...
I respect Jesus, not as the son of god, but as a great man with good ideas, courage and overwhelming love of humanity. I respect Jesus, as I respect many other great men of whatever ilk.
Finally, I believe that religion is one of the greatest metaphysical concepts/invention of mankind. Of course, evil things have been done in the name of religion, but it would be very small minded to separate many of these from the immediate realities (->inquisition/radical Islamic fundamentalists, crusades, whatnot) which are at work shaping the nature of these events or causes. Without religion, people intent on causing harm would merely find other rallying points. I believe religion is truly impressive in the way that it can unleash unexpected energy and hidden potential in people, which are, I seriously believe more often than not used for good.

Now some people love reading the bible with a marker and finding things which are not technically possible. Thats silly, in fact those people are putting themselves on the same level as the fundamentalists. Others like paradoxes along the lines of "can god create a stone so heavy he can't lift himself." I like paradoxes, they are fun. Hell, I've even challenged fundamental Christians with the above paradox , simply to get them thinking. But ultimately, I admit that they are completely besides the point. The very concept of god defies logic, otherwise, it wouldn't be god.

So I believe... but what YOU do, is up to you.

PS: While these discussions here on this topic are always very similar, I haven't partaken in one for a long time.

All of the arguments for a god and believe in supernatural have been pretty much ripped apart in this thread about intelligent design.

Thread

@Mr Wurm
Very well said post, but the above line really made me want to respond. Alot of what you said I agree with and I also agree that religion is a good thing for those who believe in it. The way I see it if your religion makes you a better person who follows the law, keeps you working, makes you help your fellow man, and just helps you get by the harder times in life then religion is a great thing!

When I was younger around the age of 16-18 I believed in god. It made me very happy to believe that when I died it wasn't the end. In college I guess I just found it more logical that in fact there wasn't a god. It doesn't mean i'm right, it's just the way I see it. If I could go back to believing in god (regardless of the fact of if he truely exists or not) I would in a heart beat. Religion was very calming for me. It kind of sucks that I believe that when we die we rot in the ground.

LOL, wouldn't it suck for us non believers that when you die, whatever you believed in life happened for you? Lol, for believing in nothing I get to rot but maybe the believers get to party down with "B'T(|-|3$ and hoes" up in heaven. Oh well, I guess that would suck.

@sebcrea
That this is not a new topic, or one that has _never_ been discussed on this forum, is something I believe we're all aware of.

@PrenceOfDarknes
Interesting thought. I kinda came in from the other end, where when I was between 16 and 18 I suppose, in retrospective, I was trying to be a little too clever as I ate up all the atheism stuff for facts at face value.
Now heaven and hell are concepts I personally have some trouble with. They sure have a very basic kind of moral function, rules without reward and punishment aren't particularly effective. And they prey on a natural fear of death. They seem a bit to much like simple psychological methods for controlling people than actual 'features' of reality. That said, would I act any differently if there was no heaven or hell or if there were? I sincerely doubt it.

I've had interesting discussions with radical Christians about the prerequisites for getting into heaven. For some, simply believing is a free pass (imagine the unjustness of a celestial heaven/hell distribution resulting from that). Others believe on an evaluation on death.
The idea that you get whatever you wish for sounds rather fun though *imaginespoorpeoplecondemnedtoeternalharpplaying*

Well, but truth is, you can achieve the same and even much more without religion as well. It just takes a certain mentality, a state of mind.

I know you've specifically said 'if your religion..., then it's a great thing.', but in reality one's religion has nothing to do with your actual actions. It doesn't even define your true moral values, as evidently even very religious people are capable of doing evil or 'bad' things.

Helping your fellow man out in reality is really nothing more but a simple choice.



At least whoever would be responsible for that must have a good sense of humor. I wouldn't really mind, as I often wonder if spending eternity in a blissful environment wouldn't just continuously devalue the meaning of true happiness anyway.

Cheers

I believe in God. Why? Good question. I've always felt Him there. I didn't always believe in organized religion - or rather I didn't have that same confirmation of its being real- but when I was about 28 or so I began to read the scriptures and I felt with crystal clarity the truthfulness of it.

I too believe in science and logic - I just don't believe one negates the other. I don't accept that truth can only be known through science and the application of logic as that term is commonly used. My goal is truth and if that truth comes from science, philosophy, or any other source I can accept it as part of that greater universal truth. Many things are true which science does not yet have proof of -in fact, I doubt that we know 1% of all there is to know in the universe- but that does not mean the other 99% doesn't exist.

I believe because I see and feel God in my life.

Just a question out of curiosity:

How do you know (or evaluate) that you you are feeling and seeing is indeed God? And, based on what you are seeing and feeling, how do you know which God it is? In other words, what objective standard are you using to compare your feelings to in order to validate that you are, indeed, experiencing God? This should be important for someone that is looking for truth, I would think.

I don't evaluate, I just know.

I don't try to figure out which God it is because I know that God is distinct and beyond comparison. There is no picking and choosing among Gods, there is only one unmistakable God and Creator. Once you have heard the voice of God, you no longer need to wonder, the search is effectively over.

There is no standard by which you can compare the feelings one gets when he is aware of God. The feelings defy any standard, that is why He is God, God IS the standard, and He is the creator of feelings.

Of course. If someone is looking for the truth, but someone who has found the truth doesn't bother himself with such stupidity.

For example, if I find a precious gem which I know is authentic, it would be stupid for me to spend any time or energy trying to determine if it was authentic.

On the opposite end of the spectrum if I find something which I know is a counterfeit, I would be foolish to question its authenticity. Why? Because I will not be fooled, I know a lie when I'm hearing one.

But how do you know if it is authentic (referring to the example you gave)

What??

I don't believe in any god because I have recognized that gods only exist because humans wish to believe in them. Weak humans need a superior being that cares about them and rewards them in an afterlife. Aside from this wish there is no evidence in nature that a real god exists. When scientists looked for primal causes they always only found nature laws but never a hint of any acts by a god.

Besides if there were a god and he were interested in being believed in, he could easily give humans a proof of his existence. But since no such proof was ever given, obviously no god exists outside the mind of his believers.

So I think this is not a matter of belief, but just of knowledge. We just know from science and from logic that no god exists. God believers may get some comfort from their belief but pay for this with having to twist their mind more or less and with living in contradiction with knowledge and truth.

Hmm, he's an interesting thought. What if (assuming of course there really is a god) that maybe actually makes some of us believe in him while letting others who might not need him as much in there lives, go. Maybe god doesn't want to be worshipped like some kind of tyrant king. Maybe he's just a helping hand for those who need to believe in some great power in order to live a happy life.

I mean again assuming there is a god maybe those who do believe he has hand choosen. Maybe since we all believe in different things he just simply made us believe whatever truth that would sooth our mind.

WTF am I talking about O_O!!??? Someone help me lol

But what if that gem looks a bit too perfect, as if it's probably too good to be true? Wouldn't you grab it and take a closer look just to make sure?

I agree though, it makes little sense to constantly check if you're still convinced of your own beliefs, when basically you already 'know' you are still convinced. Whether it's right or wrong is something else.

That's the quandary isn't it? How do you offer objective proof for a subjective experience? If we were to measure a rock it is likely most people could agree on certain objective characteristics - but even that agreement means accepting a framework of reality that is also subjective ie a blind man and a sighted man examining the same rock would have different subjective experiences based on the limits imposed on their perception of reality - as would a man with no hands.

So, while I can't offer objective proof I reject the notion that without it truth cannot be known.

And how do you know it is authentic without questioning its authenticity

@blade
LOL, ya I was thinking the same thing.

Although I don't believe in god I've always disliked it when other people try convincing others that there is no god. What if they freak out and kill us? Ever think of that? Also ever think about the results of your words? Words are very powerful. If you could prove to someone there was no god at the cost of shattering his life would you? If the answer is yes, I ask why? What do you gain? Could what you gain ever be more then what you just took away? Hope.

Yes that sort of puts you in the place of a medical doctor who has to break some bad news to his patient.

Some doctors decide not to give the truth and leave the patient with his illusion and that is probably a wise decision.

Of course truth is far more valuable than whatever illusion I could think of. If people freak out and kill us then so be it, it's not like it suddenly would make sense for them to kill us. But in any case that's not much different from the usual condemnation to hell because I do not believe in their God(s) at the moment either.

As for hope, hope is something extremely artificial.

Basically it's knowing something will not change without substantial effort, but believe issues will solve themselves anyways.

To be honest, people shouldn't need hope, after all it's an illusion as long as people accept the status quot of their life, instead of thinking "damn I should really try to change my life".

In the end what's the point of 'hope' when your actual actions ultimately define your true life?

There may be things that seem 'out of your hands', like getting sick or getting involved in accidents, but they're just an inevitable part of life. Caused by the simple fact of being with many many people on the same sphere.

Even assuming people didn't get involved in an accident because of their own actions, it's quite futile from a philosophical point of view to look at such things as 'unfair'.



In case of medical treatments there are totally cases were knowing the truth does more harm than good for a person's state of being. Then again, I would still prefer to know the truth.

Cheers

I believe if telling someone the truth will ruin their lives it would make me a bad person to do so. Who am I to force even the truth onto someone? That would make me just as bad as them for trying to force whatever they believe on to me.

maybe because you dont find gems every day so why should it not be a gem

Well it's pretty naive to think things as they are now are fine and that it could get worse than now by explaining the real truth.

So many people force their beliefs onto others it's crazy, providing a single correct (and testable) truth probably will actually solve a lot of conflicts. Of course, this is theory, but I would totally be in favor of truth.

Don't forget a lot of religions, as 'great' and 'holy' as they are, are actually the cause of many deaths and ruined lives. Preventing that from continuing is worth far more to me than preventing people from becoming disillusioned by the real truth. Ruining someone's life is pretty relative when it comes to actual killings happening in name of a random religion.

It's not like atheists get into trouble believing there is no God.



Rarity just like complexity really is not an indication of divinity or supernaturality. Something rare might be valuable, but it doesn't mean it's of divine origin or something. :P

Cheers

@PHeMoX
I agree on some of your points such as religions being major reasons for war. But those aren't the people I'm talking about. See as far as I'm concerned, those people are a word that start with the letter "a" and ends with the word holes. I'm sure if you took religion away from those people they would find something else to follow. Don't forget that the fanatics usually have a leader. They follow their leader. What your saying is pretty much if we take away guns the people using guns as a weapon to commit murders will stop killing. But I think you would agree they would just find a new weapon.

I'm really more concerned with the guy who goes to work everyday and loves his wife and kids and maybe even teaches his kids to love other people and to be good humans, blah blah blah...

Again I just don't see how me telling someone there is no god and shattering their world will help.



Well again, it depends how you look at it. When I stopped believing there was a god it made me completely depressed. I still wish sometimes I could go back to believing in something other then rotting in the ground at the end. I didn't realize how safe it made me to even possibly believe their might have been a god. Some might call it weak or whatever, but I don't think believing in something that makes you happy is wrong, even if what you believe in isn't true (as long as you don't hurt anyone else I don't care what you do or what you believe). Of course now I'm over it, but my girlfriend seems to be only now realizing it and seems to have a much harder time with it.

Going back to that quote, one could say since you might not be worried about going to hell then people might go out and kill. Of course your going to argue not all atheists go out and kill and don't worry about consequences, but that's when I would agree and say not all religious people go out and start wars.

Well, but it only shows the consequences of such deep rooted beliefs, it doesn't change the fact it's not quite the best way to stay uhm happy.



Yes, of course there are leaders, but fact remains religion among certain other things makes people vulnerable to such leaders. A leader without something he could people convince into believing, is a powerless leader.



I was talking about groups of people, not individuals. Even people not believing in God might end up in a straight jacket environment after having done God knows what kind of crazy violent stuff. But.. what if that particular atheist would somehow easily convince others of his insane ideas? He would be equally as dangerous, but there's nothing as powerful as religion when it comes to controlling the masses,

Cheers

I thought evolution applied to all until we found in man (and some animals) there was a missing link that no one has yet convincingly explained.
Apparently we should not be evolved as we are for the time it took.
Even the proponent of evolution (Darwin) in his earlier books wrote about this missing link, which baffled him too, and still baffles others today.
I suppose that is why it leaves it open for all sorts of theories from aliens and genetic manipulation etcetera.
Maybe its better we don't find out, but then again that's part of the fun of living, being curious.

Is there a god? Hmmm, tricky.

After seven and a half million years of deep thought, taking into account
Evolution - AKA Intelligent design (by nature),
Intelligent Design - AKA Selected Evolution Success Stories,
The Big Bang - where a single everything starts filling the eternal nothing,
The Great Green Arkleseizure - where the entire universe was sneezed out of the nose of "GOD",
Science - a way of proving we dont know everything,
Religion - a way of believing we dont need to know anything,
Technology - a way of measuring how much we know,
Heaven - a place to go and commit even evil deeds with Gods permission,
Hell - a place where all masochists pray to God to be sent,
AND SO, bearing all this wisdom in mind, dotting all the one's, crossing all the
eyes, and not forgetting to carry the teas, I give you THE ANSWER.
Errr....
Ummmm.....
You're not going to like this, but....
POSSIBLY

My reasoning is this,
If I DO believe in God, its because I believe HE is real, because Ive seen or heard ENOUGH proof to satisfy ME.
If I DONT believe in God, its because thats the way he made me, to use the gift of FREE WILL as best I may.

And thats how I live. I TRULY and EMPHATICALLY believe that God MAY exist.
Why dont I do what the Bible says? Because God granted me the gift of THOUGHT.

And if I end up at the pearly gates, and St Peter yells "What the hell did you do THAT for?"
I'll just say, "God made me the way I am, and I thought it seemed the right thing to do at the time."
I reckon he'll probably just say, "Oh, OK, in you go then. And dont forget your complimentary harp."

Alex

in my opinion it is just an emotional issue

Some people believe in God just because they feel the presence of lord around them.Some others the direct opposite

I dont think that it is possible to turn a believer into an atheist or the other way round just using rational arguments

After all the discussions also in this forum nobody has ever changed his mind

This is true in the short \ medium run, I mean 1 or 2 generations

an other matter in the long run
If people , in general, are nowadays less religious than in the past it is due to the fact that science has razed to the ground many ( not all ) mile stones of religion

I think the possible reason for all the confusion is that we seem to want/need to take one and reject the other.

I like truly EvilSOB's perception of things.

This is really a prelude to accepting that both beliefs are probably as valid as one another, meaning one without the other will get us nowhere.

In most cultures, if not all, spirituality seemed to have been replaced with materialism, that itself is on the verge of being replaced again by spirituality, maybe it's this cycle that allows us to really perceive. After all we know that both sides must be heard in order to get the truth of the matter.

i want to go back to the original discussion..
i dont belive in god, because the pure definition of god makes him impossible, see the old question: can the allmighty god create a stone he cant lift himself? no matter what you answer, its always the same, god cannot be almighty.
and if he is not almighty, what defines him as god? if he is just some powerfull beign, he neccesarily has to be a god liek entity.
also, science has disproven god for so many times.
like the fact that energy exists. you cannot create energy, you can only change the way it exists, i.e. make it liquid or turn it into gas.
the whole universe is based on that concept, why in the universe should we punky humans be the sole exception to that rule with our soul?
also, a soul is nonexistant, for your counciousness is nothing more than the result of your impresions and knowledge throughout the time you are on this planet.
how else could it be possible to reporgram a human being so that he is someone completely different?
also, even IF there is a god, why would he care about us anyway?
if you create bacteria, you dont care about them aswell. if you throw away garbage and stuff, billions of organisms live in there, and you dont care.
there is no god, no heaven and no hell, no fate, destiny or whatever.
absolutely everything that exists can be explained scientifically. not by me, but by people who know their stuff.
of course, people who belive wont accept my logic, for they create a flaw they can exploit, but that is your problem.
id rather enjoy my life for what it is than try to pease a non existing entity by suffering for no reason whatsoever...

Whenever I'm in doubt whether there is a God or not, I look out the window and tell myself: Look at all that. There must be a God.

And you see the sun moving in the blue sky and you claim...oh we are at the center of universe...
The scientific progress has alwayes been a struggle of a minority against the so called, common sense of the rest of us

Huh? since when can energy be transfered into something with physical properties?

Actually those opposite variants(science\knowledge versus God\Bible) don't seem to answer main questions. If you agree with scientifical theory, how can you explain the "big bang"? what was before it? if energy and matter cannot appear and disappear then where did they come from? On the other hand, Bible has many contradictions and can be understood in different ways. So in my opinion the truth is a some kind of mixture - everything obeys laws of physics, and there are some "forces" that explain God\soul\paranormal stuff.

I do believe in God, but not in hell\heaven and stuff.

It not currently within humans skills to do so yet, to the best of my knowledge.
But mathematics has proven it can be done, with the right tools, and the H-Bomb
is a fine example of matter becoming energy.


Energy and matter are the same thing in the same way as water-ice and water are the same thing.
Matter can become energy (easy) and energy can become matter(hard)(see reply to Blade above).
Explain the big bang? Easy.
BEFORE the big bang, ALL matter and energy in the universe was crammed into a single point so
small and hot that matter itself couldnt exists except as energy. Thats about all there is to say.
THE big bang was that single point, for no explainable reason (ie maybe God done it), simply exploded!
AFTER the big bang, all the energy in the universe exploded out from that point, most "cooling" enough
to form raw matter, which (through the action of stars that accreted out of the raw matter) slowly
de-volved into the complex matter we know today.

Matter to energy is not the same as energy to matter

And currently it is impossible to change the way energy exists XD

Like I said, matter -> energy is easy, thats why we humans have achieved it.
But energy -> matter is so difficult it may remain a skill only gods can perform.

No, its not impossible to change the way energy exists.
It happens all around you all the time.

Example 1 :: Take a cigarette lighter, only contains "potential" energy,
stored as volatile chemicals. Light it.
Light energy and heat energy are given off. Did we create it?
No we just changed it from 'potential' to 'light' and 'heat'.
Nothing created or destroyed.

Example 2 :: You find a rock sitting on the ground.
(lets now call this zero energy)
Pick the rock up and hold it at shoulder height.
(your arm has now given it potential energy. Lets say 10 units)
Let go of the rock. It hasnt started to fall yet.
(the rock still has 10 units because of gravity, the gap to fall into)
The rock starts falling, it gets to about halfway.
(the rock now only has 5 units of potential energy, because it
is half as far from the ground. BUT it now has 5 units of
'kinetic' energy, loosely termed momentum)
The rock hits the ground, leaves a dent, and goes 'bang'.
(No more potential energy, cause its on the ground. No more
kinetic energy cause its stopped. Where did all that energy go?
Rougly, 4 units in 'mechanical' energy to make the dent,
5 units get converted to sound - kinetic energy of air molecules,
and 1 unit into heat)
Nothing created or destroyed.

Example 3 :: Take a chunk of Uranium/plutonium whatever, and weigh it.
Lets say 10kg of 'matter'. Wait 10,000 years, weigh it again.
Now its only 9.999999999kg of 'matter'.
The rest was lost as radiation, which is energy.
Nothing created or destroyed.

Or maybe we have different understandings of "energy"?

Thats not what i meant, i mean (as you said) that you can't convert energy to matter, therefore cannot change the way it exists, i did not mean it in the sense you thought.

OK, so you are "just" talking about the engergy / matter barrier. Thats cool.
So how doesnt my example 3 show an example of matter collapsing into energy?

Or are we focussing on the energy -> matter direction. Thats harder.
There are no examples I know of that I can use, because man cant do it,
and it, apparently, 'no longer' occurs in nature as the universe is too
"spread out and cold".
But it has been shown "mathematically" to be possible (even though thats far
from proof) it just requires HUGE amounts of energy.
Its an extention/reversal of the same maths they used to devise the H-Bomb.
See how much energy was released from just a handful of atoms being converted
into energy, we would need to capture/generate the same amount to manufacture
a small amount of matter with! Way beyond mere humans.

The most popular cosmology theory , nowadays, is, the so called : multi universe

#1) Our universe is just one " bubble " of a sea of bilions and bilions " bubbles "

#2) The bubbles explode ( big bang ) because of casual events ( the tunneling effect )

#3) The " sea " which produce the " bubbles " is made of "false vacuum "

#4) Where does the "sea " come from ?
From nowhwere
The sea exist because ....it must exist
its existance being a direct consequence of quantum physics

Useless to say that nobody can seriously claim that this theory is true, for obvious reasons but it is supported by many experimental evidences

Like EvilSOB says, it's hard, but Einstein proved it's possible. And the guys over at the LHC are just about to finally make it happen.

Science give for granted that you can turn energy into matter
If I am not wrong this result has already been achieved in lab

Obviusly you can not think of matter as : stone , plastic steel...or even a small atom

Matter , in the Einstein's equation, must be understood as anything having a " mass at rest "

However if you can get a "massive" entity from a radiation, this is the first step toward the creation of the " real matter "

just because WE cant create matter from energy doesnt mean it cant be done. it can be done. we are just not that far.
ever heard of that large cauldron thingy? the oen that destroyed our world last fall? mini big bang
its simple. before the big bang, there was energy. and it took a while but one day it collided and BANG. universe born.
its of course so much more compelx but those are the easies words.
how everything came to be is just a simple answer: physics.
things behave the way they do because its all connected back to when everything was created. it took alot of turns, coincidence and stuff but in the end it works the way it works because it works. if it wouldnt work, it wouldnt be the way it is. took gazillion years to be that way. trial and error.
there cant be a god, godlike being or whatsoever because of the simple fact that it wouldnt follow the laws of nature. energy, physics, chemic reactions.
a god like entity would stand above those things and that is not possible.
its liek time traveling. just not possible. in the end, nothing we do matters, for there is no bigger meaning to anything. so the only thing that matters is what we do. cuz there is nothing else.

oh and by the way:
creating matter from energy:
a sperm and an egg meet. create a few cells. those cells take the energy from the women it grows in to form more cells...

one can mindwipe people. implant them new memories. make them go crazy or forget who they are. create sleeper agents. completely new beings based on the templates of the brain.
if there is a soul, this wouldnt be possible. and if there is no soul, why would one belive in god if there is nothing left of you after you die?

sorry, just have to question a few things here

-why would a god that transcends a physical existance follow the laws of physics?
you look from your perspective and from truths we gauge within the physical realm, how do you not know there is a non-physical god applying within a broader set of truths?
if there could be a multiverse 'sea of bubbles' outside our universe, perhaps there could be a further 'sea', and god resides there, maybe even with a lot of other 'stuff' or beings

-how is time travel not possible?
not that that is so important to this discussion.


-perhaps the main characteristics of a person to do with their mind, isn't the same as a 'soul'. so a person who develops as a character their whole life, is then mindwiped, and is completely changed from our perspectives - that is only their way of behaving and characteristics that changes, but it is not someone else. so i guess, a person is more than a leaf, even if we can't measure for where a soul 'resides'

just some thoughts

-why would a god that transcends a physical existance follow the laws of physics?
you look from your perspective and from truths we gauge within the physical realm, how do you not know there is a non-physical god applying within a broader set of truths?
if there could be a multiverse 'sea of bubbles' outside our universe, perhaps there could be a further 'sea', and god resides there, maybe even with a lot of other 'stuff' or beings

A: because it would make the laws of phyics, chemicals and such irrelevant. also, the same question for you: how do you know that there isnt a god, a multiverse or anything? the answer si always the same, we dont know. but we don know the laws of our universe. and those laws state that there cant be a god, for if there is, the whole laws would be for, as we in austria say, for the fish...


-how is time travel not possible?
not that that is so important to this discussion.

A. because thats a paradox. time is relevant to the space you live in. you cant travel to the past, because there is no past. its always now. time traveling woudl only be possible if you are able to travel through the dimensions where time flows differently. and then, you could only travel into the future, but never into the past.


-perhaps the main characteristics of a person to do with their mind, isn't the same as a 'soul'. so a person who develops as a character their whole life, is then mindwiped, and is completely changed from our perspectives - that is only their way of behaving and characteristics that changes, but it is not someone else. so i guess, a person is more than a leaf, even if we can't measure for where a soul 'resides'

A: thing is, theoretically, if there is a soul, and you mindfry somebody, this person dies and the soul goes to heaven. and if you create anotehr persona, does this one have a new soul?
not gonna happen. the pure essence of yourself is your soul. according to most religions, you, your conciusness, your equalation to good and evil, thats what you are, what dfines you, is your soul.
but all that is just the product of our surrondings. take a baby from, say, iran. its parents are hardcore muslims. if you take this soul thingy, then the baby is muslim too. so what happens if you take the kid and raise it in, say, america, with american ideals, captialism ect... do you think this kid will be anything else than american?
or the otehr way. take an american baby, who has christian parents, a whle bloodline of christians. does this give the kid a christian soul? if you rais it in kabul for example with muslim ideals, the kid will be musil, think and act like a muslim. if there is a soul, this would not work.

question:
if there is a god/gods, wich one is the right one? also, what happens to all those who have the wrong god and dont know, those who die too young to eve know whats up?

do you belive in god? and if so, dont you think its kinda sad to belive in a being that controls us? do you want to be controled? slave moral, nietzsche woudl say. are you too weak to be your own master? or are you afraid of whats to come? are you afraid that everything you do is useless, a waste?
let me tell you something: in the end, we all die. everyone
no matter who or what, everything dies. a million years ago, there were a few thousand humans. now, there are a few billion. where did all those humans come from? did god just put a new soul into each and all of them? when is this going to end?
there is no god. you can belive it or not. does not matter. nothing matters. nothing matters ever. because you are your own master. if you want to belvie in god, you just lessen the impact of all the responsibility you have. and that tells alot about you, doesnt it?

Right. Thats my point exactly. People who claim that there is nothing beyond the afterlife or that there is no God do so from a limited viewpoint. Its analogous to a fish declaring that there is no air because the fish has only water for his experience. We dont know enough to make any conclusions.


To fill the gaps in our knowledge both God-beleievers and science-believers inject their own opinions. One has faith in God, the other has faith in science. But they are both faith because our knowledge has gaps. Huge gaps.

thanks a lot for your reply



I agree, that all our beliefs are built on assumptions. rationalism taken to its fullest extreme would say that we cannot even fully prove our existence, for that proof that we'd also assume exists, does so on the same level (proof is not self-evident). but of course many don't believe that we don't exist (us-not-existing would be an assumption in itself), thus we have to make some assumptions; we can't prove anything 100%, some assumptions must be made but then tested for logical consistency.

why would the laws be irrelevant, just if they aren't completely universal to everything? who says they're the binding force of all, simply becuase they are that to what is observable?




"time is relevant to the space you live in."
are you basing that on results from tests/observations or is your assumption? there are scientists working on a machine to travel things backwards through time, but it would only be possible to go back as far as the machine exists. but good luck to them to even achieve the right conditions...




i mean what if the mind and soul were connected, but not completely the same
so if you mindwipe someone, with their body and brain still there, perhaps their personality is lost, but not their soul? the new 'person' to come from there will be the same at a 'soul-level'
but i see your point, and some of this goes into howthehellcouldwepossiblyknow territory. at what point is someone dead? at what point would their soul leave? perhaps that process would be outside time like god would be? but profound truths cannot always be simply found or stated






hopefully the god would take this into consideration and not be too harsh, eg: too young to understand/search = free from concequence. but if we were made by a god it mightn't matter to him the implications of if we didn't discover him, or he might just let it be that way for some reason even if he does care



i do believe in a God. i am not very controlled by him though. i exercise a free will, and although i believe there is a proper way to live, relative to how God made it, and perhaps therein lies at least a small part of my responsibilty, i don't always live by it. and i don't believe he hates me for it.
if he did make all this then he is the maker of truth, therefore also the source of truth, therefore living his way would be the right way, and at least some part of the reason to live. anything else, in that context, would be fake. is complete independence in life what we need? and if there is a god perhaps being one's own master 100% is a false dream anyway
don't think i am constrained by it all, though
"nothing matters"
from your perspective. i don't agree. who knows which is right. both are assumptions based on what we can see.
"...lessen the impact of all the responsibility you have"
if nothing matters, then what responsibilty do we have?

i only talking about the alst question now...
if nothing matters, what responsibility do we have?
because that is, by far, one of the most important questions in life...

there are people out there, who talk about niveau, webeing better than animals, some people are being smarter and thus better than other, and if you for example kill a murderer, youre nothing better than him...
but who cares anyway?

for all the wrong reasons, people, for centuries, belived that they are better than the rest of all those lives on this planet.
some think we deserve more rights than animals. some think we are better because we know how to use guns....

what responsibility do we have of nothing exists, if there is no god?
there is no real answer to that question. only my personal opinion. and thats, basically, the answer.
you are your responsibility, to you and yourself only.
can you live with the things you do, the consequences for your actions? or cant you.
nobody stops you from killing anyone. how could one. we dont know what you think, and this is good. although i hardly disagree with saying we have a free will, because for all we know, we dont, but i agree with saying we can do what we want.

so, lets get back to the question here.
first, lets define responsibility. anotehr one of those terms humans created for whatever reason.
it depends on what you want to be. ike good or evil, its always what we think we are.
a terrorist thinks he is good, same does the pope, or the little boy who gave a poor fella his sandwich. they all think they are the good guys.
so whats good and whats evil?

nietzsche once said, that the slave people speak in terms of good and evil, while the master people speak in terms of good and bad... he was right with that.

the question is, do you want to be good or bad? not good or evil. bad in a sense of bad for whatever you belive it might be.

for example, me. i want to be good for this generation. i want to show the people that they can live without killing each other. no silly liebral left winged multi culturism utopia that wont work. no. but just leaving others alone with whatever they are, and there is peace...

its simple. if all terrorists stop what they are doing and instead take care of themselves. if all warlords stop caring about who the damn has said anything to them. if all those naysayers and world-better-makers shut the hell up and instead take care of their own lives...
what would happen, if everybody just watches himself/herself and shuts the hell up?

i dont belive in god. or afterlife. or whatever. i belive that its my responsibility to live my live as happyly as i can without annoying anyone. i dont want to hurt anyone i dont want to save anyone. i just ant to be left alone.
and if everyone would do this, there wouldbe no need for saving. if someone needshelp, i help. but i dont run around telling people how to lvie their lives. i dotn try to save a few pooor souls froom themselves. its their problem. and my problems are mine. not yours. not anyones... mine...

so to answer your question about responsibility:
your own. you are your responsibility. you alone. nothing else. and whatever you do with that, is still your responsibility...

The question I always ask a believer in god when he explains that his god is outside the realm of science, is undetectable and basically invisible to everyone I ask what is the difference between a god that is undetectable, invisible and outside the realm of reality and no god at all and I haven't got an answer that doesn't start with the magic words ”I believe ...”.

When it comes to religion there are much larger claims because they are founded on the idea that god rules and interferes in human affairs in this reality and that is clearly something that can be examined by science. As many psychologist have shown the human mind is very susceptible to hallucinations and wish thinking which finally has something to do with our large brains. There is only one objective base and these are the facts supported by evidence what you believe maybe provides comfort but is not supported by evidence.

And these are the facts supported by a large amount of evidence:
--------------------------------------------
We are evolved apes .
The earth is 4 billion years old.
95 percent of all the species that have ever lived on this planet are gone extinct.
The Andromeda galaxy is heading toward our galaxy at a rapid amount of speed.
The universe is 4 billion years old and not yet have we found any support for the god created the universe story.
-------------------------------------------
Also the universal constants that some people claim to be proof of gods existence are not proof at all we have to be in the universe that supports life otherwise we wouldn't have discussions like these.

Morality is clearly a product of evolution a long time ago we lived in small groups and their advantage was that they worked together and helped each other to not get eaten by all kinds of predators.

And finally the afterlife when I have done social service in Germany I meet a lot of people with Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson and their brain were so much damaged that they saw the world completely different and even forgot about their family and loved ones ,now imagine what happens if your brain dead.

To sum it all up there is no reason to believe in a god in this universe and if you do believe thats ok as long as you are not imposing it on others or you called it based on facts. When you are religious thats another story because you are indirectly imposing it on others just read your holy book what happens to the unbelievers.

You can check this very easily as I did as a child: You can do a dozen or hundreds of prayers and then note down if your prayer changed anything. Write it down and count how many prayers really had any effect.

In my case nobody listend and the only success was: I saw a falling star after a lot of prayers that I wished to see one. But this was coincidence because lots of falling stars went down at this time.
Though I have to admit that a person really in need to believe in something could take such events as a sign.

Some researchers did the same with several groups of test persons. Prayers did not have any significant effect.
If you still believe, then it is all this: blind believing.

But in the end we all believe in something, in our kids, in our strenghs in our morality whatever. So I think it is not that bad. But it is bad if you kill other people for not believing in the same. And it is not very smart to be convinced that you have the one-and-only best-of-the-best objective to believe in.
There is a lot of variety and that is good. It makes this world colorful and interesting. We should not change this.

@spike

i can understand where you come from with a lot of what you said, but i'll just say a few things

personally i think, if there is no god then there is no responsibility (kind of what you implied i think)
there is only 'chance' and chaos, what randomness we make of it, and no absolute truth, morals, or reason for anything. those who try to explain morality or any of that without a god will struggle to. however some people use that belief to do whatever they want, like murder (if nothing matters why not?), but that is assuming their philosophy is right anyway (although people will hurt others through most philosophies seemingly).

so IF that were all true then i see no difference between a self-centered philosophy of looking after oneself or looking to take care of others,
but i think a self-centered philosophy isn't right, and only seeking to please oneself shouldn't be our aim, nor do i think it will solve world problems, nor bring personal happiness. but that is my belief, i probably cannot prove this and i won't go further into it

i think people's self-centeredness are a cause of a lot of problems in the world rather than a solution.
we are a very social bunch, and to serve ourselves or whatever it'll sometimes have to do with other people, so when we do bad to acheive our ends sometimes it can bring pain to others

but if there's no god, then chaos and randomness are all we will ever reap. the pain in the world and wars are simply the natural outcome of what would be the apparent cause of everything, chaos and randomness.


@ sebcrea

thanks for your comment, whether it was directed at me or not i'm not completely sure

i'll borrow a few thoughts for my response.


i believe you are right that within religion with a god that gets involved in human affairs you'd want proof of it.
what proof are you after?
they are digging up all the things of the bible for instance, like the battles, cities, even walls in foreign countries to the israelites with some of the prophecies which critics decided didn't exist. the bible's version of events is not without empirical evidence.

as to the afterlife, or what happens after life, why would one's brain or body affect it, unless indeed it is a religion to do with the afterlife using the same body? ones body can deteriorate separate to the mind, or vice versa anyway, why would a soul die with it?

as to your basing your beliefs from ground up around facts and science, here's a point for one philosophy of why it can't be done (i am not personally against using facts and science though)

do you believe in athiestic evolution?
if so then i would guess you'd believe that time & chance & matter created everything, including our minds.
if that's so then you'd have to agree that truth as an absolute category no longer exists, as truth by nature is absolute.
time, matter, and chance are changing, they are not absolute, you never get time chance and matter remaining the same.
truth cannot be derived from such changing un-absolutes, it would have to be not-absolute.

if that is correct, and there is no absolute truth, then how do you know it is true? that time & chance & matter created your mind or that any science is true?

as einstein put it: "scientists make poor philosophers." a lot of scientists don't realise about the assumptions they make about science.
there are philisophical assumptions at the foundations of all the sciences, maths, theology, etc.
since when was science the ultimate truth of the universe? analyse one's own philosophies and you'll see the assumptions there. science isn't self-evident proof of anything.

separately, it is an interesting illustration that g.k.chesterton makes:
God is like the sun, you cannot look at it, but without it you cannot look at anything else.
But to a scientist who thinks he can explain everything with his formula, he says his god is like the moon, completely confined, defined, and completely scrutable.

just cos you can study science, and it seems logical, is it the only thing?

do you really think science is an absolute truth? do you think absolutely all existance and everything can be explained and understood by a series of mathematical equations? are you only willing to believe in what you can comprehensively understand?
they are big assumptions, and you have nothing more than that to base it on.
you'd just believe it to be so. and that was your argument against people who believe in a god.

(but just so you know, i do believe science with my philosophy can be true. i am not against emperical evidence, and science. but it's not on it's own self-evident as such.)

Well actually I don't believe I go with the facts, whats important is not what sounds plausible but what is supported by hard facts. You seem to invent a lot of things to backup an approach of magic and superstition, show me a science study of respected scientist that came to the conclusion that there is a soul. Why are you making such a claim because its seems to appeal to you but your argument has simply no foundation.

I never talked about the absolute truth, but all religions do, they claim they already know after you read the bible, quran you don't need any further explanation. This is the definition of a totalitarian system which is highly immoral and a good example of what such believes can lead society.

I ask again what is the difference between a god that is undetectable, invisible ,outside the realm of reality and no god at all ?




Well first of all the universe is the exact opposite of chance there are process at work like natural selection which have nothing to do with chance, so why are you making such a claim ?

So far there is no evidence to suggest that the universe was designed. You can believe what ever you want but if that believe claims that there is a celestial dictator (god) than it is highly immoral. And we all know what happens if people who believe that are in charge Iran, North Korea …


Also philosophy can be chilly shally a pure philosophic approach is no evidence actually most philosophers try the leave a creator out of the game.

Let me quote an other scientist, F. Gauss , one of the greatest mathematician ever
He said

" Phylosphers either tell trivialities or absurdities "

If you take a breath , you can see that he was absolutely right
Claiming that God must exist simply because someone must have created the universe it is a childish claim
Dont let me misunderstood, I dont mean it is a false claim I mean it is a trivial claim
Same as claiming that the sun is orbiting about the earth or the moon about the earth
The former claim is false the latter is true , both are trivial claims

Phylospher can try to look smart using a sophisticated terminology
Ok the result is that they simply turn a triviality into an absurdity

The truth is that you must stick to the hard facts whereever they lead you to

Or you should rely on your 'faith' and resist attempting to justify it with pseudo-science.
And what if you have an hypothesis, but no facts to support it? Is it false because you have no evidence?


"People of Faith" are by their nature "believers".
"People of Science" are by their nature "understanders".
You will never make a "believer" understand, unless he already believes.
You will never make an "understander" believe, unless he can understand.
Belief requires faith, and understanding requires logic and/or facts.
So I dont "believe" that these two type of perception will ever come to an "understanding".


I dont see any justification for this sentiment at all.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - probably from the bible I think.
I think this is an excellent moral, whether there is or isnt a god. Why MUST god exist to this moral to be good?
Unless morals are just rules you are scared of breaking, or god will punish you eventually.
I do not believe this is what morals are, its just how the "church" tries to use them.
Morals are SELF-imposed rules to strive TOWARDS tomake ourselves better than animals.


"Undetectable" means we have not YET designed a tool to see him with. Bacteria was still a killer before microscopes.
"Invisible" only means we cannot SEE him. You cant see wind, but it can still blow your house down.
"Outside the realm of reality" is too ambiguous to work with. Has different meanings to different people.
"No god at all" would be different because ... err ... ummm ... just different OK! Use your imagination.

Do you think your answer is an argument at all, have you even unterstood the question ? I should use my imagination well what does that mean just imagine something doesn't make it true. As I wrote early what matters is not what sounds plausible but only what is supported by hard evidence.

i want to know WHY do you want there to be a god?
WHY?

if there is a god, everything gets worse than it is in an instant...

WHY do you want eternal live or salvation? WHY? woudlnt it mak live pretty much obsolete? you sure you dont get bored in an eternity?
WHY?

i rather live by MY rules, i set them for MY, to guide ME and only ME through MY life...
true, i have some morals, but those dont come from god. they come from simple logic: leave me alone, i leave you alone. how can i assume somebody leaves me alone if i dont leave that person alone?
i dont have any doubts about my actions. i see it fit to take the life of the people that *I* think deserve it. if they deserve it or not is up to ME. that might not work in a governed state or morally relevant state BUT it works for ME. until now, i found alot of people who deserve death however i was unable to give them what they deserve because i cannot be everywhere.
but if i ever get the chance to kill, say, bin laden orsome of those religious fundamentalists that threaten MY life, be sure i wont hesitate. because i live by my laws alone. lucky me, most of my laws are pretty much the laws we have here in austria. i have a good life. not because i fear god, but because i enjoy what there is...

believing means not to know... i know...

If I there are no facts to support an hypothesis an hypopthesis remains an hypothesis
As simple as that

The " beleivers " try to justify their " belief " at any cost
If you go through the post in this forum you will find tons of examples




True but it is also a matter of education

If nowadays there are more " understanders " than " believers " it is thanks to the school

That's just a semantics issue. In reality a believer isn't all that different from someone you describe as 'understander'. I agree that a lot of people with too much faith tend to be quite ignorant when it comes to certain topics (both pro-science and pro-religion people actually ! ), but it's not like every 'understander' has a laboratory in his or her basement having confirmed lots of the scientific experiments.

In fact, the good stuff usually is largely as theoretical in nature as a good sci-fi novel would be when it comes to stuff surrounding the origin of everything. Of course the general scientific theories are a billion times more likely and plausible than a sci-fi novel could ever be, for all kinds of reasons, but faith is something funny when it comes to masses of people that blindly follow certain kinds of ideology.

In the end there is no wrong or right from the perspective of philosophy, let alone from the perspective of a certain lack of knowledge or the average quality of common knowledge. Having an actual true answer is something that's just too good to be true.