Draw Muhammad Day 20th May 2010

For free speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApmnezyPSMc

*removed*

Bullshit. Just Bullshit.

I think there will be a big debate about this

This is how the western world should always behave in dealing with thugs, people who want to kill others because of a drawing they did, have no place in our society, period !

I mean how worth are those freedoms if we give in at the first sign of trouble. @ Uhrwerk so your the one who will defend our freedoms in the future?

@ Michael Schwarz nice

Wrong forum. This belongs to Hilbert.

Thanks.

@sebcrea, but you should not forget that just because a little part of people tagged under same label does something, does not mean all of them approve or do this. You see not all Muslims are like them.

In fact, let's say modern Muslims, would not approve what they did. In fact Islam teaches not to kill but to explain, and turn people to the right path. What they are doing is kind of the opposite. In fact, when you consider the teachings of Islam, terrorists claiming to be doing their thing for Islam, is actually does not even counted Muslim. When you add western media sounding it even more worse and adding to it, people starts to think all Muslims are bad.

Indeed there is a problematic group, which both western/non-Muslim and real Muslim people do not want. They are certainly a problem for the non-Muslim people as seen in these events, but WE do not like them either.

Islam does NOT teach anything about something like "All non-Muslims should be killed." Whoever, thinks it does, if they think they are Muslim, is either delusional or brain-washed by the people who use them, or they can even be that brain-washer who wants to either damage the image of world Muslims or using the Islam as an excuse, and if they are non-Muslim and thinks Islam does that is getting bulls**tted.

Also there is that media making it sound like Islam really does teach what they are doing. You see few months ago, in one of big newspaper's website(probably a U.S. paper, i do not remember), a Journalist, wrote an article about Quran teaching the killing with "quotes" from the Quran. Quotes were indeed true and was not modified, but a sentence in a context can mean alot of diffrent things. I.e. there was a quote like(or something to that extent):

"You have to fight for Islam and your people,the war is your obligation, if you do not do as said and flee you will be punished."

but what he/she did not quoted was right one verse before this one, which says something like, "If enemy forces are raping your land and killing your people, you should defend your people and country."

that section is actually about not turning your back to your people when they need your help, i.e. in war. And not about you go and have to kill innocent people of other religions.

That article was removed, after a lot of people stating that one verse before these verses says something. And the author if this article apologized saying, he did not know, go the verses in a mail, checked if they are true, and just wrote the article. As i said, they are true but, they were not saying what they think it does.

Alot of other things like that,

TL;DR:
All I am saying is not even most of the Muslims like them either. Also western people or people with a fobia against Muslims, should see what Islam is all about and what it teaches and what it does not teach for themselves. Instead of listening stuff like these people claiming to be Muslims, go ahead and make a small research, listen to prudent,fair-minded and righteous Muslims instead. Before making that research, what you are doing is to relying on other peoples claims and relying on what other people and media says. Like so, you are not speaking your mind but what others want you to speak to.

What that cartoonist did was exactly that, speaking what others want people to speak to. That's not even close to free speech, that is manipulated speech and speaker is not even aware of that. Anyways, but insulting a religious figure considered to be sacred by most people is not a good thing either. Free speech is not the freedom of insulting. I am not defending people burns flags, and does the stuff they are doing, as i said, they are not even considered Muslims, from a point of Islamic view.(which they like to oversee.)

Very nice bottom line Quadraxas.

As this is a very sensitive topic for the affected people, I encourage everyone not to take this as possible platform to insult or discompose islamic people, but to respect the difference of their culture and PoV.

I don' want to close this topic down and provoke the next discussion, but if it's going out of control, I have to.

I've guess you are intelligent enough to stop generalizing moslem based on what you saw on tv,magazine,mass media?you must be still believe what ever you read and watch don't you?I don't see why you refer moslem as thugs,if your thinking this way,i can make the same generalizing on german as thugs also? because of past nazi,etc,if you wise enough you should know there is good and bad apple for every religion & society,i as a moslem don't ever tolerate what the extremist have been done on bali,uk,no i don't believe wtc/9-11 is act from the extremist but from the propaganda(simple proof thermite?).

Just think this way,if you have a son/daughter/families will you ever let anyone to redicule/harm them in anyway?The same with us,only the differences is we prioritize our religion first as this act of drawing really forbidden in our religion,no we won't bring this to justice with violence but with the rules on the country where this happening.

I don't see why the hatred comes out now while the tragedy happened ~10 years ago and not in germany.

Did you ever read Al-Qur'an & hadist/sunnah?or just hatred from what ever your parents/friends/tv/magazine/mass media says?This judging is not balanced,afaik good judge is know well for both side!.

Hey, we are all aware that they are a small group. The problem is the power and influence they carry. Look at the United Kingdom for example. Right now those... let's say "extremist muslims" for lack of a better word.... They are raping and twisting the laws of free speech and equality for their own benefit, while hurting others.

They demand THIS and THAT. While others lose more than they would be willing to, just so those self-appointed Prophets get more power and even more influence.

For instance they are about to pass some law so that their own traditions can be pursued without intervention from the state. In this case they want to allow muslims to continue marrying young girls, and most probably even allow them to have sex with them.

The problem is, that the right for religious equality in THEORY would allow this, and pressure from those extremists will sooner or later make it possible for them to do so, unless some people take initiative.

Let me be clear here, I have no problems with muslims, christians, followers of google or the giant spagetthi monster. I don't care which imaginary friend people believe in, or what he instructs people to do. Hell, for all I care there can be religion that demands people to walk only on their hands while constantly singing the finnish national anthem. And I have no problem with that, but only just as long as those spiritual believes don't interfere with the happiness of others.

If we have to draw Muhammed in different insulting poses to illustrate to those extremist fuckers that they are not wanted anymore and that they should either go back to their original believes or hide on the north pole, then so be it. But I (and other) won't stand idly by, while they rape our rights and freedom to impose their own moral authority.

You see again, they are using Islam as an excuse to their pedophilia. In Islam, there is no lower-age limit on marrige but, both sides have to be biologically complete adults, i.e. should be completed their puberty. now in our time this does not happen before 17-18 years of age on most countries and environments. Let alone having sex, you cannot even marry(i.e. just marry, dont have sex.) a 12year old. But again here we are, extremists making it sound like Islam allows that.

I never said, that's what you do in Islam. I said "their own traditions". Meaning them, the extremists.

Please, don't try so hard to be offended.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just read your post too quickly. Yes of course you are right. But that is what gives them the authority to pursue these goals. Claim that it's tradition and BANG! you get your rights to do so, because god forbid (no pun intended) we cannot disallow people to follow their own traditions!

I am not offended but i guess you already got that?

If they are trying to pass every random fantasy of theirs as tradition, they should make me a minister or a cabinet officer for those things(not that i am that religious). you know they ask me if this is really what Islamic tradition says or not I am guessing i would get a gazillion death threats everyday.

First of all, there is no more against portraiing Mohammed as a non-muslim than not worshipping (or even eating) cows as a non-hindu. Muslims should tolerate that as much as hindus do.

To clarify this, I dont't hate normal/moderate/peaceful muslims. But I don't like terrorists, and we shouldn't let them take away our freedom of speech.

About the Quran justifying terrorism: I admit that I never read the Quran myself (I don't have the time for that, at least atm) but I read the following from various sources:
There is a sura that forbids you to kill (but as in the Bible there is the problem that it might only mean don't kill other muslims). And there is an other sura that explicitly forbids you to kill yourself ("You shalt not destroy yourself").
But, in some parts of the Quran the it does tell you to kill infidels (but I don't know in which context). This includes a backdoor to terrorism, because there is a sura that tells you that it if you kill infidels, it does not matter if you kill yourself. This seems to justify terrorism inthe eye of terrorists. Furthermore, it becomes attractive, because when killing infidels you can escape judgement and get straight to heaven and get 72 virgins (but the arabic text is ambigious, it could also mean 72 white raisins ).
That's how I understood it. Quadraxas (or any other muslim), if anything of this is incorrect, just tell it, I'm eager to learn^^.

But about Islam being violent, what about this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VselUW4Aoxg
Later in the full video (search for "The Big Debate"), the muslim scholar admits that in a muslim country, the penalty for apostasy is still death.

About the Mohammed cartoons in 2005:
In "The God Delusion" I read that some muslim who saw the cartoons in Denmark brought it to the muslim public world and added some more, offending pictures to it, including a gorilla that has nothing to do with the cartoons.
But even considering that they got a more "offending" version of the cartoons, this is no excuse for the violence that followed. Expression of free speech was followed by violence. Also, you should have some humor and be able to laugh about caricatures of your own religion. People ridicule about politicians and even other religions all the time and no one gets violent. In christianity, it's forbidden to make a picture of god and this has also happened and no one ever complained.

Also, I somewhere read that you could consider terrorists and parts of the islamic world as 500-1000 years behind in religious development, which means, they are on the stage of crusaders and whitchburners. Maybe an interesting thought. I dunno^^

http://www.brogames.de/Mohammed.jpg

i sense an endless discussion coming so i keep it short before i back out of this for obvious reasons:

no matter what you believe, you ARE NOT to kill or hurt people. period. anyone who does that should be punished equally, no matter of race or beliefs. and thats something thats just not happening as of yet, for "honor crimes" are punished less than other crimes, at least in europe, because one is afraid of being called a racist, something that happens much too fast nowadays.
in the end, every extreme is bad one way or the other, and humanity should learn to shut the fuck up, think logically about something and make religios crimes rate as hard as any other crime, nothing more nothing less.
we have a system that seperates religion from jurisdiction at least in my country and it should stay this way.

believe wht you want to believe, just dont force others to be on your side. you would want the same for you...

with this said, Im out, never reading this thread again!

@alpha99

"Just think this way,if you have a son/daughter/families will you ever let anyone to redicule/harm them in anyway?The same with us,only the differences is we prioritize our religion first as this act of drawing really forbidden in our religion,no we won't bring this to justice with violence but with the rules on the country where this happening."

So you basicly say follow our rules and it will be fine, you simple impose muslim sharia on non-muslims. And you mix speech with action harming someone has nothing to do with speech.

Well yes I've read the Quran and these so called extremists are pretty close to the text but of course you will deny it. Its funny the more I learn about Islam the more Iam repelled by its teachings.


To Quadraxas here is your problem these extremists know the teachings of islam, the quotes you bring I know however you seem to have no understanding of what bases of a free society "Free speech is not the freedom of insulting" are. Freedom of Speech was always thought of as protection of things that are controversial no one needs to protect nice speech.

Sam Harris explains it better why your views are so problematic.
Sam Harris on Islam

He very much gets to the root of the problem by also refering to the teachings of the Quran.

Islam needs a movement of enlightment not deniers of what islam teaches or not.

@Lukas, what infidelity is explained in such context, which generally does NOT mean non-Muslims.

Also, Qur'an never allows one to kill themselves, your life and other's lives is god-given and only god can take it. Exceptions for killing others being war and that kind of stuff explained in Qur'an. That's pretty clear in Qur'an and hadith, killing yourself in anyway, is not allowed. So, suicide-bombing is not martyrdom. In the event of being a captive in enemy hands(i.e. in war), you are not allowed to suicide either. In fact, if you kill yourself it would count as you are suicided which is not allowed, but if enemy forces kill you, it counts as martyrdom which is a sacred rank.

Backdoors for terrorism is people making it sound like Islam allows it, but in fact it's not, it may even forbid it. Like, the pedophilia topic above, there is no backdoor, they just make it sound like there is. It could be that they are mis-interpreted it(i.e. the way they want it to be, not as hadith or Quran explains. not that Quran is unclear.), or as i said above brain-washed and being used by other people. Also even if they show such places as their standing point, they would contradict a lot of other places of Quran, because that they are not doing as Quran actually explains, they just hear what they want to and act accordingly. They are overseeing the fact that the Quran is a complete book, all parts supporting each other, acting by only parts of it can only be a cheap excuse.

As i said, i am not that religious, i only read Quran twice completely to see what it explains for myself. I did not see any point, that Quran asks me to kill someone, in my current state and position.(like, we are not in war etc.)



exactly. There are large groups of people trying to maintain such movement but guess what, extremists are against this too. Still these movements are happening, and recognized by the world, i just hope more people gets to know these movements and stop fearing Islam. Even, as far as i know, a university in states, has a institute about such movement.

Also, the book seems interesting, i'll buy it and read sometime.

If you use your freedom to offend others you abuse your freedom. That's where your personal freedom should stop. It's that simple. I don't care if this action turns against muslims, christians, owners of cats or users of a certain after shave. It's easy to see that it will offend some people, people who have never done anything bad to you, people you don't even know and that's why it's bullshit.

I don't care for such a day for free speech.
The important things are others.

Let's mention a history of cause and effect:
If the Western nations didn't invade and exploit the Muslim countries, leaving a mess of corrupted elites behind when they left, we wouldn't have any problem with such extremists.
Means, if the Western nations wouldn't take the freedom to colonize and ruin other societies, the Western individuals had no reason to fear to use their freedom of speech.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like extremists, I don't like killing or hurting or bombing or other violence, and I don't say that they are doing right, they are idiots, but to make idiots a general problem, you need a swamp where they are growing, and those idiots got their swamps to grow, and the Western nations had their chance to avoid the arising and expansion of such swamps, but they didn't take care.
That's it.
It's nothing but the foam at the peaks of the waves of mud many people in the Muslim countries are forced to live in.

@Uhrwerk you have no idea what freedom of speech really means and also you mix up action and speech.

@Pappenheimer so in other words we are just getting what we deserve, there is only one problem look up Jefferson and Islam, Slavery,North Africa. Expansion of the ottman empire, you should also look up Sam Harris book.

If the west is reponsible why are the first victims of die growing jihadi movements other more peacefull and enlightened muslims.

Well, excellent you know what I know and what I am mixing. There we have our true prophet. Btw. I don't see any contradiction in your last sentence...

Edit: Thats the result of an action for freedom of speech:
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9176976/Pakistan_court_orders_government_to_block_Facebook

You stated it "I don't care if this action turns against muslims, christians, owners of cats or users of a certain after shave. It's easy to see that it will offend some people, people who have never done anything bad to you, people you don't even know and that's why it's bullshit."

You talk about action against somebody , this is about speech so clearly you confuse the two which lets me to believe you don't understand western freedeom of speech.

Yes, an action against. "Eine Aktion gegen". Encouraging people to do drawings is clearly an action.

Nonsense. Please, read carefully, start from beginning!


Did I say anywhere that they have reason?
I said: there _are_ 'causes', not: they _have_ 'reason', in the sense of 'they are arguing or thinking reasonable.

They are working to take away my rights, don't I get to do something about that?

Who is working to take away what rights? How is provoking those and other people a solution to that?

I rest my case.

i don't get it either. how does this affect you in germany? i think there is too much fearmongering by the media. radical islam (and radical christianity) has no future. the only thing we must not do is neglecting our educational systems.

Ok, there are two pictures with demonstrants on it. You'll find millions of these on the internet. The context of these pictures remains totally unclear. If this is the peoples opinion or if they are just letting some frustration out remains totally unclear. How these people on the pictures are related to you remains totally unclear. Have you ever been in the situation that you wanted to express something but we're not allowed to? I do neither see how these people thread your freedom, nor do I see how offending them and many other people improves any aspect of the situation...

@ Ventilator:
"how does this affect you in germany?"
Have you watched the video in the first post? (first 40 seconds)

It is not fearmongering that made me take action. It is the fact the all western countries are like "we have to respect radical islamists" while they are marching in, burning our flags etc etc.

Of course there are normal islamists. BUT a "normal" religous person wouldnt care about cartoons of their god or whatever.

And it is my goddamn right to say that muhammad is in my opinion a dickhead. Just like i say that the bible is bullshit. This has nothing to do with offense. It is just my personal opinion which i am allowed to express.

And it is not even my goal to offend them.

But you cant tell me that those guys here are just having a barbecue:

They are trying to offend.

And tomorrow i will draw Mohammad just to show them that they havent succesfully repressed my rights.
Thats all there is. And there is nothing wrong with it.

From the opponents party your freedom of speech is an attack on their own personal values, so it's clearly an action because your freedom of speech harms the others personal ... let's call it point of view.
Besides the discussion whether it's freedom of speech or not, what is your personal benefit in showing those cartoons, as apparently this only causes anger on the other side? The personal satisfaction of "hey, I can post this, no matter if I insult the other or not, I dont care!" ?


And you think, that by making them even more upset you're going to change something into a positive solution for both?

Respecting radical islamists? Marching in??? Wtf?


Yes, that's your right. The only thing you forgot is that you're hurting religious feelings of other people with such statements. And for no reason and no effect. That's not kind.


There is wrong with it that you disrespect other people.

Oh we hurt their feelings. Those poor islamists.
SERIOUSLY. There were a bunch of cartoons and a mob of radical islamists came shouting "We want danish blood".

Please watch this video and say again that you totally disagree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ok4njJXI8
If you are able to seriously do it i will rest my case on this topic too.

That looks more like Achmed to me.

You did not get my point. I don't care about the radical islamists. I don't give a fuck about them. But I do give a fuck about all the other peaceful people believing in islam, that are gonna be offended by these cartoons. There is even a chance that some of them will turn more radical as you make fun of their religion.

I have the right to draw any picture that offends you, Puppeteer. I agree. But if I made an image that offended you in order to show you my rights it was just dumb, offensive and wouldn't lead to any other result than resignation or agression. You do nothing good with this.

EDIT: And hence, yes. I totally disagree with the video. Free speech is one of the most valuable things we have. But this action does not save our free speech, it's just a dumb and offensive action.

Let them become as radical as they can, maybe they reach above the highest ethical levels of free-speech society to undertake serious action, and be done with the extremists for good. There is no other way to solve it, it seems. Better have another bloody war for both side once and be done with it, than extremists spoiling blood on free-speech people, while they don't dare to do anything back other than DISCUSS IT UNTIL ETERNITY.

Disclaimer. I'm not part of either party, no extremist nor full freedom. When I can, I'll withdraw from mass-society and live in peace in a small local medieval eco-village, focussing on survival rather than revenge and power. Mass-societies just screw the planet. Until then, sarcasm all the way .

Now i get your point. And i agree.
But i still think we have to do something about radical islamists.
And even though it might be childish and wont save free speech, i will still participate tomorrow.

[And even though i dont like saying it : your point kinda opened my eyes. Thanks for that.]

@Uhrwerk Actually who have no point, you trying to appease these tactics never worked in history, appeasement never secured freedom. Muslims also think that you shouldn't drink alcohol or eat pork I hope you not doing that because that could be an offense to the less enlightened muslims. You should care about radical islam und all the people who will become radical because of some pictures becasue they don't know anything about how a civil society works and they will also not defend your freedom of speech.

Have the jews,hindus,christians aso. became more radical because of funny cartoons about them ?

The real problem is not that pictures are drawn of Muhammed (because that happened in the islamic world before and nobody was offended by it in the past), the problem for these folks is that now the infidels(2nd class) draw these pictures which is not allowed in their mind.

I really hope that more enlightened muslims stand up for these freedoms because that is going to make a difference. People want to sound tolerant by saying lets not offend them, but where were they when the iran make a cartoon contest about the holocaust(which no problem they also can express what they want) or the taliban destroying the Bubba statues but I see jews and budists are not treatening with death.

The reason why we already lost alot of freedoms is becasue of people like Uhrwerk, people (as he says) don't give a fuck but want to educate others on what to do.

Tolerance out of fear is no tolerance.

Since this argument will not be settled I'am going to stop here, big thanks to Michael Schwarz, Puppeteer,Lukas,Hummel you really seem to have an understanding what freedom of speech means.

Happy Everybody Draw Muhammed Day!

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativismus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

#define normal 42

@Puppeteer: Thank you very much. I have not hoped to convince anybody here. I'm very glad about this. It's not meant personal, that I didn't hope to convince anybody here, because I thought I'm better or you're all dumb, it's just the heat of debate. Normally this ends up in a cathastrophee in a forum and I'm really glad it turned out so much better.

@sebcrea: Of course I do drink alcohol and I do eat pork. But there is a big difference. If I am invited to a muslimic event, let's assume a marriage, I still have the right to drink alcohol and to eat pork. Even there. But it is inappropriate. It hurts the religious feelings of my invitors. So why should I offend them? In order to show them my rights? For sure not. In many cases it proves much more strength to disclaim your rights, even if they are granted to you.

Btw.: I do care about radical muslims. I wrote that I don't give a fuck if their feelings are hurt. If and how they are a threat to whom is another question. However, you won't defeat muslimic or whatever radical forces by doing something they accuse you of. I can't agree with your historical interpreation, that appeasement never secured freedom. It may be due to the fact that we never tried this.

It's kinda funny that you say that I act out of fear. I don't fear the loss of my free speech. You do fear the loss. And it's even funnier that you claim, that you lost your freedom of speech because I want to tell you how you have to act. I told my opinion to this topic and that is exactly what freedom of speech grants me. You have to decide what you do on your own. That has no influence on your rights.

I even never said that I tolerate radical islamists. But I do tolerate every other peacefull man or woman. And in my opinion that is exactly the basis for freedom of speech. If you fear the loss of your freedom of speech you should not show your disrespect for other religions. And by doing pictures of mohammed, which is clearly a tabu in the islamic world, you're just doing that: showing your disrespect.

So important I have to write it again: In many cases it proves much more strength to disclaim your rights, even if they are granted to you.

But, will it blend?
Imo (!) Uhrwerk is perfectly right.



Freedom of speech doesn´t mean that you´re a cool Fonzie if you can manage it to draw some stupid pics that may offend somebody.

Freedom of speech demands responsibility.
From a normal™ point of view.

Who has questioned that?



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalisierung#Globalisierung_der_Kultur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization#Cultural_effects

You can´t go to a portal and leave our dimension.
Won´t work these days.
Nor will insults stop at the state frontier, only because they got no visa.

Got it!
Who understands the world?
Who defines what´s bad and what´s good?
If you ask me: every subject (person, town, state) for its own. That´s live. That´s good.

"Childish" is an offense. Violence breeds more violence.
Why should "childish" drawers listen to somebody who insults them?
How can they believe him?

It´s fascinating how many contradictions and double standards are
used within this issue.

Absolutely right. You don't have to. But wouldn't it be nice if you followed their rules when you are invited? Would it be really too much to give some of your rights aways while amongst them for a tiny day? I don't think so.

This has got nothing to do with a molten culture or something like that. It's quite the opposite: respect for the individuals and their cultures.

They won´t life here. They don´t have to adapt to anyone.
But they have the right to be offended.

Again: Words won´t stop at frontiers.
They don´t care if they coming out of germany or not.

I don´t really feel comfortable about the globalisation.
But we have to deal with it, in a positive manner.

Absolutely agreed. Unfortunately this is an international event and has already caused harm, as can be shown on the example of pakistan.

Isn't it's also a freedom as moslem to defend my own religion for these sort of things?but it just your definition of freedom is to run wild free like a pre-historic man,i am sure to some extent the rights that are currently undergoes on many country is to make freedom of moslem to do our own religion,but yes to some people who never see us will be very shock by our more 'conservative' way of life.The world kept changing and evulate.

About the burning flag,it's mostly done when the massacre happened in iraq,afganistan,chech,etc because based on our own literature all moslem is a whole like a body,when a part of body being hurt,the other part would be feel it,clear your mind people!US and allies doesn't attack iraq without any materialistic intention!it's all about money,the lies that the mass media kept telling you about spreading democracy is bullshit,also i agree to some degree that the fight that currently done by moslem fighter in these place is really humanely right and it's allowed by our religion.

It just humane rights,if a country and it's allies attacking your country with some silly reason will you just sit your ass in home and humming about the invasion that happened in your country?,well if you still have atleast patriotism or nationalism in your heart.

So far i know in jew,Christian,Hinduism doesn't have a strict rules about drawing their own gods,prophet,etc, while us is otherwise.Our reason to forbidden drawing is for good reason to prevent idolism!,take for example from the redicule of jesus a.s,how many kind of redicule already happened?white jesus,black jesus,in youtube jesus singing,etc.I don't how the vatican handle these but for us as moslem we will take it differently and no we will not just kept silent.Be careful because this type of anger in moslem is rightful rights!.

Don't you guys forget the law of conservation energy,don't bring the peaceful moslem into doing that we don't want to do.

Yes i am a moslem respect the other religion,i have so many budhism friends,i respect their holiday,not redicule any of their gods,etc,the same goes as my christian friends,i respect them also.

The invasion that done by US and it's allies doesn't make me hate US and allies people,i just hate the people who have any part on doing so.I have some us,europe friends,so far we got along respect each other.

"Unfortunately this is an international event"

Indeed, that´s what I´m trying to say.


"And I din´t say that they are not allowed to be offended by my picture irrespective of where they live."

So, were´s the problem then?
Just let them be offended. I can perfectly see their point.
And I won´t say "don´t take us too serious, we are just another culture...!"
This is plain arrogant and short sighted. This creates even more suspicions and
is not the way to go. No wonder, that they are feeling helpless.

Is it so hard to understand, that these pictures are a strong sacrilege???
What do you expect? Friede, Freude, Eierkuchen?

Edit: alpha12, thanks for your insights.

Oh you people take the world way too heavy .

This link might upset some people, so if you are sensitive, don't open it?
http://forthardknox.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/cartoon-muslim-danishi.jpg

And just to make fun of my own religion too (I can't imagine an agnost being hurt by seeing this):

"Oh you people take the world way too heavy"

You´re absolutely right!
But you can´t demand that everyone gets this.
It´s a pity.

The first pic is another good example for short sighted activities.
This comparison is flawed. Think a minute about "jews" and "mohammed".

Then think another minute about jews wearing swatsika armbelts. He is mixing it on purpose, but the point still remains: a danish cartoonist made an innocent cartoon, because that is what he does for a living (cartoonists ARE childish, but we read them anyway, because we like that as free-speech people; sarcasm and relativism) and the extremists demand Danish blood now. Not only is this twistedly generalizing all of Danish over this one cartoonist, it is also hypocritical for they are offensive themselves against any other religion/political system that is not like their own.

What cartoonists do is good, they relativate and soothe the problems so sensitive free-speech people don't go all nuts and grow hatred against the extremists, but instead wave it away with a smile.

I know a lot of "infidels" which behave exactly in the same manner - on a "scientific" level.

You can´t compare a picture of a jewish citizen with a picture of a god.
To say it in islam: With the one and only god.
Which reactions do you expect?
Is it really so hard to accept, that this drawings actually hurt a whole culture? Are we really such dumb asses?

Sorry, but I´m feeling rather bad now for coming out of europe...

If these drawings hurt a whole culture (which isn't the case (it only "hurts" the extremists, but then again they take every reason they get to rage a war)) then this culture should not take the world so heavy . It is then the free-of-speech culture that is full of sarcastic tolerance against the fierce conservative culture which doesn't tolerate any sarcasm. It is them who need to adapt, because the world is not just theirs. Free-of-speech culture can tolerate the conservative culture, but not vice versa. And since we do not threaten their countries, but they threaten ours, they go beyond acceptable borders, not us drawing pictures.

Of course you do, because you draw those pictures only to bring them into rage by saying "It's my freedom of speech which allows me to do this".
If you can bring me a single point of what you intend to change with this event or whats your idea in it which creates a long term solution for both sides, no one would complain.

At the moment this is nothing more like two little childs, one having a lolly and waving it in front of the other, while the other has none.

Drawing pictures or flying two planes in a skyscraper and blow up a metro station. Yeah, that's comparable .

I brought a point but nobody seem to accept it as a point, we're a relativistic society which judges the world objectively and with a sense of humour. It is in our nature. Just like it's in their nature to get angry about it. Why would we need to change, if they can change too? Well they wont, but that doesn't mean we should change our standards. If they start drawing funny pictures about us and leave it at that, nobody but pricks would complain.

"it only "hurts" the extremists"

Where did you get this pov?
Take alook at alpha12´s last post...

"If they start drawing funny pictures about us and leave it at that, nobody but pricks would complain."

Ok, wonderful. We should keep it like that.
But is this the one and only way to handle the situation?
Why are you so confident about our so called common sense?
Who gives us the right to determine what´s good and bad?

What is it going to accomplish? Well, if the Radical Muslims start sending out death threats to all those people who participated they are soon going to lose credibility. They will get ridiculed, as a part of that politicians wont bend over for them anymore (hopefully) and finally see just how coockoodoodeldoo those guys really are. Meriting not the help of the government to support their "Religion" but rather help of some mental institution.

Before anyone goes ballistic, I'll repeat again: I have no problem with anyone's religion, but only as long as they keep it to themselves.

The question how it affects me in Germany? Well, if you think that these issues are exclusive to England and Islam, then you are pretty naive. Maybe they don't have many supporters here right now, but if they continue their winning streak in the UK, other countries will be on their list. And Germany as a country where freedom of speech is an important part of the Constitution, we are pretty high on their "hit list".

Of course there are other ways, but they take decades. Politics rarely solved religious problems or removed someone from a position of power when they started to become tyrannical or oppressors. In the end, we - the people - have to take the initiative. We don't want bloodshed and arguing with them has proven to be pointless.

Of course, it will provoke them. I know that, but that is not the main point. If they get angry about an action like this, (as I said above) it will ridicule them. Getting angry at DRAWINGS? If they decided that the Mona Lisa is offensive to their religion, MUST we remove it from the Louvre? Of course not. If they get angry at something this silly, then really nobody is going to pay them any more attention.

"Getting angry at DRAWINGS?"

Just accept it. What´s wrong with that?
What´s right about _not_ getting angry at drawings?
You can´t transfer _your_ common sense to the whole world.

Even better: You _demand_ that radical muslems have to accept other cultures.
You are no whit better if you that.
We demand. Muslems demand. Patt.

Just accept that our way isn´t the only on, the right one, the best one. We are all kleine Würstchen in our small world.



Fail. Da Vinci has had no intentions to offend somebody.
But the mohammed drawers did. If they deny that fact, they should grow up.

I don't DEMAND they accept our culture. I want them to stop changing it just because they believe theirs is better. Like I keep, and keep repeating over and over: I have no quarrel with them, as long as the keep it to themselves!



When did we deny it?

Well then don´t draw silly pics.
It´s that easy.
You demand that they should not be angry.



But we pay them attention. So there has to be a flaw in this construct.

And how will it help to make them stop?

I'm sure the civilians in the east thought that too when the Crusaders came for them. Unfortunately it didn't help at all. They had to die because they didn't believe in THEIR God. Simple as that.

I don't want my freedom cut off, and do nothing about it.

EDIT:



There has to be a turning point somewhere.

So, you´re not demanding?
If you want it to stop - just stop.
freedom != axt im wald

Especially your last sentence is so right and has also some lyrical qualities.

And if I stop?

It will just be their sign that we resign and that they are free to impose whatever they want on us.

If we do nothing they will continue. So what good would it do?

P.S.: Its really hard to keep up if you retro-edit posts

We can play this game until infinity.
Wait - this is hilberts...

Why has to be a turning point?
Is this a fact? It seems that you´re full of fear..."german angst"
Do you really think that some drawings or silly actions will introduce a turning point?

Even Richard Löwenherz has gotten that in the crusades.
Violence breeds violence. It doesn´t matter if psychically or physically.

A turning point when those dickheaded politicians finally see that those radicals don't want equality and understanding for their "religious views" but power and influence and to turn the western world into a mirror of what they believe in.

A turning point when politicians don't give in to their "demands" anymore because they sent them death threats if they don't do so.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Angst
Do you really have so less self-confidence?

Ah alright, we are down to posting links... alright:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyNQ1zc-q74

EDIT: And no, I have a healthy amount of self-confidence. I just don't have confidence in our beloved politicians. ESPECIALLY in Germany.

Then please do us a favor and go for it. Be a politician.
I believe you would make everything right without any problems, from the beginning.
Can´t be too hard, or what do you think?

Edit: Another good point from uhrwerk.

If you don't have confidence in out politicians thats totally ok. But why fighting a thread with dumb means, that doesn't even exist? Or has any person ever hindered you to say what you want?

I think that this discussion is getting really pointless, I think in the interest of friendship we'll just have to agree to disagree before we get into a more heated argument.

I appreciate that you´ve brought that up, I think it´s a good suggestion.

Now go and make love, have fun, spread disease.

We need not to make it pointless and heated though, I'll summarize. So two ideas here, correct me if I'm mistaken.

One is positive to showing that we won't listen to another culture when they have so many and powerful extremists among them, showing we will stand our ground with our own norms and values.

The other is positive to showing that we shouldn't make a culture angry by means that are not so bad for us, but are for this other culture, to show understanding and willing to find another way to deal with the rotten apples.

Both ideas will not solve the problem. Rather they depict how we want to look like towards this other culture. Do we show how our share of the world is important to us (freedom of speech on all accounts), or will we show respect to those who practice the Islam truthfully and work with them together to solve their rotten-apple problem?


In my opinion, while the latter idea sounds like it would work better, in reality it is not. The hatred towards us within Islamic extremists is so big, they'll take any chance to declare war to us, whether that be drawings or any other reason. So if we make a habit about not making drawings of Muhammad (exactly like how we treat drawings of swastika's), shouldn't we also remove anything else that makes them angry? They eventually don't care if we draw Muhammad or have a church in our city centre. It's all the same for them: a reason to tear us down.

I think adding these small respectful courtesies is beyond the line. We have been very generous adding mosques to our countries, and truthful Muslims are welcomed here, but have you counted the churches in their countries? We have shown enough respect, it's time they show respect from their side to us. But I'm open to be reasoned.

Just look this English video from The Young Turks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMz0aIM2_sM&NR=1

The moderator is Muslim and even he does not get why they get upset. He says it quite simply:
The Muslim is told to not draw a picture of Mohammed.
The Muslim is told to not eat pork, to not drink alcohol, to pray... and so on.

But people of other religions don't belong to this circle, they can eat pork, drink alcohol or paint an image of whatever they like.

@Frank: What is so surprising about liberate muslims? That is most likely the norm. But what about the non-extremistic minorities that still feel attacked?


You're absolutely right. Both "methods", i.e. doing cartoons or doing no cartoons, won't work in terms of succeeding to open the extremists eyes, turning their rifles into flowers or convincing anybody about anything.

But, and that is the most important point for me, by doing cartoons we create the chance that some peaceful men will feel provoked and will maybe get a more extreme point of view than they had before. Maybe they will just feel insulted. That's the better option in this case. So the second method is not better, but does less harm. And that is an attribute of quality in my opinion.

The question if this day is doing harm is already answered. Not by any user around here, but by facts. Pakistan blocked facebook, i.e. resignation happened. You can't say that this is a success story...

@Michael: This has got nothing to do with friendship. We are exchanging opinions here and that is a good thing. Exchanging opinions means thinking, sharing thoughts and to get a broader point of view. I still like you as much as before. I think you're a nice guy, even if I don't know you personally.

What I would take serious instead is the extreme comments that come by on youtube. They sensor every tiny piece of boob which is not sexually implied, but calling Allah a fag that rapes Muslims in hell in the comments is all fine. (and then drawing a stick figure is all serious and childish, I don't get it). These policies frighten me more than anything else. But different subject, right.

Yes, this draw-a-mohammad day is a bit shame, that came quite out of nowhere though, like all the other this-day-is-special days. But it is nothing we can possibly prevent. These hypes will subside soon it's just the first time it's interesting, common sense people will grow tired of it and forget about it. I don't really think we should get that as a big deal. It IS the internet. That pakistan blocked facebook for it is their loss. The same how China scared away google. It is what happens, and we should definitely not have stopped draw-a-muhammad day just so pakistan wont block facebook. (heck I keep hoping the Netherlands will block facebook, I take offense to farmville, petville, mafiaville and designer pillows).

I rather have us all focussing on swearing on youtube. That would probably shape more hatred in people than drawing muhammads.

I think this is not good too. But once again this shows that idiotism is not a question of religion.

Problems like this will occur in the future every day. There is no reason to take everything in a forum like Facebook or Youtube too serious. There are mainly kids, many kids did not finish their education, react emotional and are not mature. But they can publish each dumb video today.

The world should be able to ignore things like this. People should be able to recognize serious sources of data and information. They should also be able to recognize that a small kid is not a typical example of a mature member of a certain society.

Otherwise this concept of world-wide free communication should be seriously evaluated.

I totally agree wit you, Frank. But unfortunately not every bullshit poster is a kid. There are also some persons that just want to spread hate and even more unfortunately succeed. However, the policy they are driving there seems strange to me nevertheless.

Yes, and still they are a minority and not a common representative group of our society.

As there seems to be more and more anger in discssion let me share my point of view (about all this christian / islam thing)

In christianity you have ten commandments and one of the commandets goes like this: "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God" And later: "You shall not murder". And if I remember correctly ( haven't looked to the big book for ages) there was a comment for not drawing a picture of thy god. Now let's compare that to islam, and hey the rules are pretty much the same!So in the end both muslims and christians should respect God over everything?

And no it's not like that today. Shout if you're a christian and you've broken the 2nd commandment (in lutheric bible style). I know that I have. Have I drawn a picture of a god? No not yet. But few have allready (for an example watch family guy). And most of the people have shouted god's name. (Oh my god!... anyone?)

To say the real thing after briefing (Note, this is based on my assumption as a christian and I've never read quaran as I feel I'm not allowed to look in it as a "false religious" person)

We who live under western culture have aparted from our roots. We've come more and more materialized in the past century (compare 19th and 20th century's end). More and more people turn to atheism and ignore that there could be higher power. In short, we respect religion less than we used to. Now in islam (as far as I understand) this is not the case. A muslims respects god, Muhammed as a founder of a religion and other profets (including that woodwork guy), and other religions. But as they respect it more than we do (we== west) we don't understand their angry towards our actions to draw pictures of their respected things, which in their religion are forbidden.

Please read that few times at this point. I've never written this much here.


About this radical thing. We've feed them. We do every day as we want more and more. When people that first tolerated other religions get to middle of the war where seems to be no sence a radical movement strikes. And when there starts to be more and more casualties on amongst the civilians the hatred grows (even when radicals bomb their own people the hatred grows... As radicals can do this: "THEY CAME HERE AND BROUGHT THIS ON YOU!",effective isn't it in right conditions?) Now DO NOT take this as I understand them. They are scum, killin innocent people is not an act of war. People had a right to choose when Al'Qaeda recruiters step on their doors,at least I hope so. There they dropped the forgivness part from quaran and started to read quaran with the method: "You see what you want to see".


So giving and arguments how that did what and who did what is pointless. When people would just respect others (even when they had made a mistake, others would respect the person if he/she would ask for their forgivness) and forgive for those who ask for it.

Isn't that one idea of both, bible and quaran?

Regards
PPS: the purpose for this was to make people think a bit more, I'm more than happy to answer to arguments against this post.

Yes I agree with you Walori . But now with this explanation, would you allow the west to draw Muhammads?

Whats this? I could swear this was one of those 4chan's jokes... what's this doing in a Connitec forum?

It's like getting an straight answer to this problem. I wouldn't deny drawing Muhammed, but I wouldn't accept it either. (as stated earlier freedom of speech comes with responsibility about using it correctly)

Answer: No, I would not allow/accept drawings of Muhammed
regards

Good lord saten why did I just read this entire thread? lol it took several hours 'cause I read every post lol

Here's my perspective. In high school I told people I was an atheist. I got a lot of shit for it. People said horrible things to my face. Even my teachers showed disprovable. I just said 'fuck you' and moved on with my life. I knew they were just judgmental pricks.

You know why I put up with that shit? Because I was/am proud to be an atheist! I am proud to be who I am regardless of what society thinks of me. I never did any harm to anyone, yet I offended average American Teenagers simply because I didn't agree with their faith. I never said Jesus was a douchebag or anything hurtful, I just said I was an atheist! Now I burn? Now I have no morals? I'm less vindictive than most Christians I know! In fact I don't believe in retribution!

So I've decided, I'm going to speak my mind. No law or person is going to stop me from expressing myself. Oh did I offend you? Tough. You don't have to listen to me, just ignore me and move on, just like I've ignored all the religious bullshit shoved down my throat by peers.

I say let the these people draw their pictures. They are expressing themselves and no one should stop them just because somebody might get pissed, in the end it's the radicals hurting themselves by getting so worked up.

That's what I learned from taking shit in high school. If I let those punkass kids get to me than I would have been hurting myself.

I will never ever change who I am to appease someone. That's Freedom of Speech! Expressing who you are! I will fight those who try to stop that! I am a writer! If you take that from me than I am nothing. It is a freedom I would defend with my life because it is my life.

This melodramatic post was brought to you free of charge by FoxZero. Good day all!

Religion is just like beeing a fanatic fan of a soccer (or football) club.

You chear for everything your team does. (no matter what)
You like beeing around with other fans of your team.
You like wearing stupid scarfs or shirts with the teams banner.

An you really dislike people who like the other team.

And if someone says "soccer is stupid", you hate this person
the most.

Coming from the Philadelphia area I know well the wrath of sports fan. If you see a mob of Phillys fans coming your way while in your car, don't park if you like your car right side up lol

I don't know much about other religion but for us it's not like that,we will not disturb other religion among a thing if in some point doesn't disturb the value in us,even in our literature in we disturb our neighbor without any reason at all we will go to hell,we have so many strict rules that prevent us to lead into non-conservative way of life.

the hooligan it's different case,you just beat up if not in your team.

Its not ment as a 1 to 1 comparison, but more of a parablel.

Most sport fans are peaceful too.
The Hoolegans are the extremist subgroup then in this comparison.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Interview_A...ne/2049411.html

Seems like the event stirred up quite a fuzz

No. Unbelievable. That is surprising...

Quite the uproar but at least I can understand why muslims undertake this action, even though they target an individual whilst 80.000 other people are involved as well. I think this is very low, but still understandable.

But these patrionistic Americans thinking only America knows what true freedom is and have no idea about the rest of the world... I can´t grasp the idea that people want to be so closed minded.

I understand this point. But at the same point I think there are much worse and more stupid situation we should care for. Painting a picture is actually not a problem at all.

But driving a car while drunken, or putting a dog into a microwave oven to dry it, or going to the back seats of a car while putting on a speed automatic, this is really stupid and can harm real living people. And this really happened in America.

They can sketch whatever they like, I see no remarkable art work amongst these.

Actually drawing the picture of Prophet is a big problem really. In Islam no one can make a pictures of even just a human. And making pictures of Prophet is really provoking Muslims, because Mohammad(). Most of you guys don't really know anything about the Muslims and religion Islam. You just saying the thing that you found all over the Internet and Television. That is not right. Most of you think (I do hope that not all of you) that terrorists and Muslim are the same thing, but that is not right! That is not completely right guys! About the Qur'an, it is not changed at all guys, I do not need to prove that, because non of you have read it in Arabic language. So what are you all talking about? Most of you just talking about the religion, about witch you don't know anything! All this is politics games, and most of you just can't get it! Pictures of the Prophet were made to provoke the Muslims, to make other non Muslim people think how are Muslims are "bad" and so on... And thats all because the Islam is going to be most popular religion after a short term of time. Population of most countries are ok just because of the migration from Muslim countries. That is fact! And don't say that Muslims are bad and so on. Do you remember about what happens in Iraq for example? And the 11 Septembers thing, all that was planed by the government of the America, because that was just one more reason to continue the war in Iraq. And all that are facts. Hope some on of you can get the right point of what I'm saying. I hate those peoples that kill other people and call they selfs Muslim, they are not believe me! That is all politics games. You need to know how to separate religion and politic. And religion is not like being a fanatic fan of a soccer (or football) club... You can't compare such things. Sorry for my bad English, I'm from Russia and especially from Chechnya, so please do not try to tell me what is politics and what is religion, I'm Muslim, and I never killed any one, and I do not want to. I so how police and spetsnaz were killing humans, and after killing them they just say that all of them are terrorist... What can you say about that? You do not know anything about Religion... So please do not try to make yourself cleverest one here, and say that Muslims are "evil"... You never faced real evil yourself...

I think you misunderstood this thread. As far as I remember, nobody wrote this. There is a big difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. And most of us are sure or know it, that there is no command for terror in this religion.

Most of war acts in all religions come from leaders who misuse the religion. They pick something out of it and turn it like it fits to control people.

The poor terrorists are actual tools of these leaders. Mainly for economical reasons, to get more power to impress and suppress other ones.

The religion is not the problem, but the people misusing it are and of course the stupid people following them without asking more questions.

And painting a picture of any human might be a problem for Muslims, but it is not forbidden for other people outside of this circle. So they can respect that as well.

Nobody here thinks terrorists and muslims are the same thing. If you thought that then you haven't understood us. Why is it that a noticeable amount of people think they are being generalized, and make a whole point about that instead of help solving the bigger picture?

I have heard enough christians saying nobody understands God if he isn't christian, American people truly believing their country is the best abeit patrionism, and muslims complaining about the rest of the world thinking muslims are all terrorists. You can not possibly find a solution when you do not accept that other people know perfectly well what you know too. Yes there are some rotten apples, but you shouldn't even begin arguing with those trolls, as you're only feeding them.

You are right, but not much people here do really know what do they talk about. If not so, I'll be just happy believe me.

I think we should be glad that most muslims don't know the tenets of their religion either. And the notion that all religions had extremists is simply not true some never had them. for example jainism

Nowhere in this thread somebody wrote all muslims are radical but some of them are. Frank have you seen the videos and manifestos of these suicide boombers because their they explain why they are doing this, so no need for speculation. Actually they are not from the poorest places, most of them came out of western europe. For example Hamburg the 19 hijakers of September the 11 and also most of them were very well educated.

Drawing Muhammed is forbidden for you muslims not for the rest of us.

What for you have to be glad? I do know the "tenets" of Islam. If some one calls his self Muslim and even can't say anything from Qur'an, that is not Muslim! And about that Muslims need to respect that in other place drawing people is not a problem. Yep that is right, but why do people from other countries to draw something like this:
Is this what we need to respect?! Hell no! You saying that is Muslim and Terror is not the same, so what is this picture about then? You need to respect and understand that by drawing such pictures you can hurt and provoke some peoples (especially Muslims). If you go to an other country for holidays for example, and the culture of that country is different from yours, will you respect they culture and don't do things that is not comfortable for them? Of course you will. If you want some one to respect you, then you need to respect that some one....

No, unfortunately I missed this. What was their explanation?

3run: Why are you sure that his is an image of Muhammad? Maybe many of them just picture a common image of a fictional terrorist.

What is this all about then? I found this picture in the Internet after searching for Muhammad name. Now tell me please what do I need to respect here?! And see what is written on his head! That is "There is no God but ALLAH, and Muhammad is his Prophet".

Frank you should find some of video testimonies on http://truthtube.tv be you need to look carefully for the real unaltered ones.

3run you need to respect the right of people to draw these pictures and to criticize your religion not the picture itself.

I'm not gonna respect that bastards witch has drawn this shit! I'm not gonna respect people witch do not respect me! I think non of you guys gonna respect some one that do not respect YOU!

In the western world we can criticize anyone, any dogma we want, the question is would you respect the right of his to draw something like this ?

I already sad that. Hope you guys can get something from what I wrote here to you.

3run:
The image series "Jusus vs. Mohammad" is basically stupid, yes. They compare 2 religions and claim that their own one is better. This is just like when 2 kids are telling each other that their dad is stronger and better than the other one.

This is simple thinking.

But at the same time the Jesus image as a body builder is funny and creative. I can smile about it even if the background is a bit dumb.
I see no reason to get upset because something of that.

Maybe these people do not respect you enough, because they do not know you enough. As you said, they dont know your religion. Many even dont know that it is not allowed to draw people. This can happen and is not a bad thing.
Dont make it up too much.

I am sure that most of them are fine guys and will respect you, when you meet them at the street.

One thing to everyone who attends this discussion:

Discussion on this subject is fine, but posting pictures which are offensive to
some members is not, and so is prohibited here as it is barred in the rules of conduct of this forum.

Everyone who already did so is requiered to remove those pictures please.

I already did.

I knew that this crap day would bring up controversy. Who thought of this in the first place??

I don't think I can edit my first post anymore

You have a little problem in this point. It IS allowed to draw humans, but it's not allowed to make fun of religions.

Show me in Qur'an where is says that Muslims can draw pictures of human?!

Think backwards. Give me a verse in Quran that indicates you're not allowed to draw humans.

so you can only do what qur'an explicitly allows?

are you also not allowed to model computer game characters?

There are other sources.

It IS allowed, but 3run has some issues with trying to avoid his mistakes.

Drawing pictures is prohibited in Islam, because this is like duplicating the great creations of Allah. One of the name of Allah is Musaawir which means The giver of form, Shape, colour.

A human being who makes a sculpture, picture or a painting of someone is claiming for all practical purposes that he or she too can make the same form or image. Therefore it appears in the Sahih of Al-Bukhari and in other Hadith that on the day of Judgement, those who will make pictures will be told, ‘When you have tried to imitate us, make the imitation perfect too-if you have the power to do so. We did not simply make an image. We have invested it with a spirit too. If you claim to have created it then you better put a spirit inside the thing you have made.

Another reason for the prohibition of pictures is that the angels of Allah hate pictures and dogs, and surely they hate it only because Allah does. The angels are not like humans, they dont have their free will to think they think according to what Allah orders them. Praise be to Allah, He surely is the best of Creators. Angels do not enter a house with pictures or a dog so therefore the blessings bought down by the angels would decrease.

Another reason appearing in some Hadith that pictures are unnecessary embellishments of this world. Of course in our time, pictures yield many benefits but thousands of crimes including those that range between immodesty and pornography, also breed and flourish from these very pictures. In short, it is not simply one reason alone that was made the basis for it’s prohibition, rather there is a host of reasons why the Shariah of Islam has declared it prohibited to make and use pictures of the living.

Drawing is of two types:

One is drawing pictures of animate beings. It says in the Sunnah that this is forbidden. It is not permitted to draw anything that depicts animate beings, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, according to the saheeh hadeeth: “Every image maker will be in the Fire.” And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The most severely punished of people on the Day of Resurrection will be the image-makers, those who tried to imitate the creation of Allaah.” And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The makers of these images will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and they will be told, ‘Give life to that which you have created.’”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed those who consume riba (interest, usury) and those who pay it, and he cursed the image-makers. This indicates that making images is forbidden. The scholars interpreted that as referring to images of animate beings such as animals, people and birds.

With regard to drawing inanimate objects – which is the second type of drawing – there is no sin in that, such as drawing mountains, trees, planes, cars and the like. There is nothing wrong with that, according to the scholars.

I'm not able to give you exactly the ayat from the Qur'an at the moment, but I'll believe me!

If you extend this to the other media types, then you are also not allowed to make movies or to make games with animated characters. You would shape the same human form you are not allowed to paint. You would even try to give them character with an animation or with some speaking. This is way closer to duplicating what your god did.

But at the same time it would be also bad to consume such productions. If you watch a movie or if you play a game you would consume a piece of a forbidden product, you would enjoy the shape of an animated being.

With this in mind a Muslim should be only allowed to read and to imagine these things. Right?

Why all media types? We are talking about pictures, please do not turn this to an other way.

hm... what is a picture to you? a pencil drawing?

we are on a game developer forum here... i guess you work on some game too? is it only filled with inanimate objects? or how is doing artwork for games different from drawing something on paper?

i agree with frank. creating computer games is a bit like playing god. so it probably is a very blasphemous thing to do?

That is bad in comparison, I'm artist to, I can draw pictures, of human or whatever. I do make games, with arts and with animated models too. But making game and draw some pictures of Prophets of other Religions that disgrace them are not the same thing!

yes, of course it's not the same thing as drawing pictures of prophets.

but above you stated that drawing animate beings in general is a problem. i found that very strange since it would be a huge limitation.

There are many limits in our life, but no one pushes us to do them. About animating and making models and so on, I guess we need to ask some really knowledgeable person, who will be able to say is it sin or not. But drawing peoples is sin!

Based on what? Koran? Sharia? Pashtunwali?

What is Sharia? Pashtunwali? I'm talking about Islam, because I'm Muslim, I do not really like that some one draws one of our Prophets! Based on Qur'an!

Yes, I knew you're a muslim. That's why I was asking. I just wanted to know where you got the information from, that drawin people in general is sin.

But when you are a real artist, then you will probably sketch your 3d model before you start to model. And actually tools like ZBrush are quite similar to painting. In modo, ZBrush and other tools you can paint on a 3d-character to make realistic textures.

If you ask me, this is not only like painting an image, it is way more, you are more close to copying an animated figure, you do it in 3d, more realistic.

And besides that you simulate life, you try to give them a personality, character.

If painting is a sin, then modelling and animating is way more sin. This is straight logic.

And what about real sculptures. Are there no sculptures in Muslim architecture? This would be basically the same problem. They are shapes and forms of animated beings.

My mother language is not English, I read Qur'an in Russian language (took the book from friend of mine, he is from Egypt), I also did in Arabic, but I can't understand it in Arabic, it is hard. Problem is that I do not have that book with myself now. So I can't point were I read all that, but I did! And I know that is sin! I tried to find over the Internet english translation about that, but got no luck.

You know, there are many situation in life, when you can't just follow the logic. If so, you can say something like: "I can't see the soul, so it doesn't exist". That is pure logic, but it is not right. Also you can say: "I can't see the oxygen, so it doesn't exist too"... As same as you can't see somethings because of your eyes not able to, you can't understand somethings, that why we don't need to follow logic all the time. But as soul and oxygen, both of them exist! And that is fact.

I don't think painting living forms is a sin. When their were no cameras, the only thing was painting, that was the way to tell the story of their contries.

their is many contries, muslim contries that have painted living forms, like humans, because that was the only way to get remembered. for example, Turkey, in the old Ottoman Empire, if we hadn't painted and writted about the rulers, the sultans in the beginning, no one would really know them.

and about drawing our prophet. The reason that no one is allowed to draw him, is that he was a very important person and almost no one still living knows how he looked like. It isn't good to fantasize and draw someone so important, that you really don't know how he really looked.

I'm living in Denmark, where the drawings of our prophet really began. I didn't really get angry about the guy drawing our prophet, but I got angry about how he drawed him. When he drawed our prophet, he didn't draw him as our prophet, but as an terrorist, and that what made me angry.

their is no muslims, that is terrorists. terrorists, who say they are muslims, either are someone that wants to take islam away from the world or he is someone who has been brainwashed by those who wants to take islam away from the world.

I hope I didn't write something wrong. correct me, if I did.

- Muhsin Kaymak

Turkey is a secular state with no official state religion, so you are wrong here. By saying that. See for example Saudi Arabia, there is no drawing at all as I know. And yes you are right, you can't draw Prophet Muhammad because no one knows how does he looks like, but that is just one of the reasons. And painting living things is a sin! Ask your parents if they are Muslim too.

3run, the oxygen example has nothing to do with this example. You wrote:

"A human being who makes a sculpture, picture or a painting of someone is claiming for all practical purposes that he or she too can make the same form or image. Therefore it appears in the Sahih of Al-Bukhari and in other Hadith that on the day of Judgement, those who will make pictures will be told, ‘When you have tried to imitate us, make the imitation perfect too-if you have the power to do so. We did not simply make an image. We have invested it with a spirit too. If you claim to have created it then you better put a spirit inside the thing you have made."

Did you ask yourself what that means? It means that you should not play the role of the "creator". And if creating a picture without a soul already is a sin, then following "creations" are even worse:
- a sculpture (even mentioned in your post, ZBrush does sculpting as well),
- a 2d or 3d model (is basically a sculpture),
- animated speaking game persons,
- an animated cartoon character in a movie
- a robot (for entertainment or in industry)
- helping women to get pregnant

At the same time it would not be very kind to consume such products. So I ask you: Are there no pictures in your books, do you read only text books? What about magazines, newsletters? Are they all without any pictures in the islamic world? What about internet, do you read it with all images switched off?

If you really want to live this, then be consequent in each area of your life, otherwise it looks very hypocritical to many people.

3run, I know that Turkey isn't the same as it was before, but in the ottoman empire, they was very islamic, they didn't do anything that was against islam.

and if painting was a sin, then taking pictures would be to. don't you take pictures? and if painting was a sin, then using those painting would be a sin too? it's like a crime, if you saw you friend steal some candy, and didn't do anything about it and eated some of the candy, then you would be a criminal too!.

You know nothing. Even while you're muslim.

Ok, here's the abstract:
It is okay to draw humans and other stuff.
It is NOT okay to draw prophets.

it looks like you do not know nothing Cowabanga, even if you are Arabic! I do not talk about pictures in books, or making photos and such staff, I do read normal books, I do make animated models of living, and I DO TAKE PICTURES (PHOTOS), do not complicate everything! I use to study in UAE so I use to be in some arts contests there, I even won there. I wanted to draw a human picture, but they told me that I can't too! So what can you say about that Cowabanga?! It is sin to draw living! About making photos and other staff, as I sad before, we need to ask some knowledgeable person, witch knows more than me, but as I sad do not follow your logics here!

I say: The guy who told you that is an idiot, I asked a lot of 'knowledgeable' people, and they said it IS allowed. Don't try to make an argument. I said that because I do trust my 'logics'.

And if you still say drawing living stuff is a sin, then can you tell me WHY is it a sin?

EDIT: And how about my avatar? Is it also a sin to put it? (Hehehe, try to answer this *insert evil face here since it's a sin for 3run*)

did he just tell you that you couldn't draw a human or did he say it was a sin?

Both actually, he has issues with this situation.

I'm not issued with this situation, just because my English is not that good, you are trying to thereat me like a kid! Do what ever you want to do. God will grudge you.

well, if it is sin to draw living things, then it clearly also is sin to create character models for computer games. or does qur'an mention any exceptions for computer game characters? this doesn't make sense and also doesn't need a knowledgeable person to clear up. the knowledgeable person only would have to clear up if drawing living things is a sin in the first place.

well working on the computer is essentially writing... bits and bytes . Maybe *they* can use it as an excuse.

Assumed I was Muslim, what if I make a device with a quantum detector that draws Muhammads if it receives a signal and Jesus's if it doesn't? Of course I have the intention to let it draw Jesus's and disprove the existance of quantum mechanics, if it draws Muhammads then that would have been entirely out of my hands, as I do not believe in quantum mechanics. Would I still be a sinner if it draws Muhammads? Or would it mean Allah doesn't exist because Allah would never make a machine draw Muhammads through quantum mechanics? Don't *you people* never think of such questions? I do all the time.

EDIT:
Why, if Allah is so fond of his ability to create, did he gave his creations the ability to create if they should not? I always make sure my robot wont make other robots if I dont want it to make other robots...

then you could also see the sheet of paper as a grid and the graphite particles as a bit mask.

Originally i hadn't planned on showing you guys what kind of picture i drawed.
But its message somehow fits perfectly into this topic:

take it easy people,let's be neutral here,i think people should respect other's
believes,no matter what it may be,you are already been talking about "freedom of speech",just let it go guys.

@Puppeteer have you ever heard about one Moslem cursing Jesus christ,or even Moses???they respect all religions and "prophets",but there is a certain group
spread's terror in the name of god.

@Vinous_Beret
Muslims think that Jesus Christ is not the son of god( or god himself) sound pretty offensive to me if I were christian. You can find alot of arab cartoons about evil jews on the net so don't bullshit around, I have never heard jews burning embassies over that. We don't respect religion just for the sake of it, we evaluate reasons and if these are bugos we say it,it is as simple as that in a 21 century society, deal with it.

The word respect seems to have lost all its meaning and was replaced by the idea of not challenging people and selling that attidude as somekind of moral highground, people should be ashamed.

that's the point behind multi-religions,people can believe what ever they want to.

really?that's mean you don't only hate Muslims,so you also hate Hindus,Buddhist,china people"communists",or even Jews,etc..cause non of them believes in Jesus Christ?!!

oh,so what about israeli army killing Palestinian children every day in Gaza??

or in iraq by "liberaion army of the USA"

even in west there is so many movies,pictures,cartoons
mocking at Jesus

evil jews != mohammed
Undifferentiated comparisons won´t help.

I am not defending any one here, iam just making my point.

Sorry, I meant sebcrea. Next time I´ll quote him.

it's OK .

It was not intended as offense against muslims.
While reading this thread i thought that a facepalm pic would fit best to express what i think of parts of this discussion.

@Vinous_Beret
I never wrote hate but it is easier to make up stuff than actually respond to the stuff I really said. I wrote we do not respect someones religious belevies we challenge it, we don't accept the idea of believing something without evidence ot at least we have a better tradition.

Thats why I said the word respect has lost all its meaning.
The reality is if you don't want to offend anyone on this planet it will turn out to be very difficult near impossible.

I will not talk about Gaza because it will not change anything all I know is that the Hamas has a very clear idea what should happen to Isreal and the jews, you can look it up in their manifesto.

The question really is not what offends xy but what should be allowed to say in a 21s century society. Noone seems to get that if drawing to prophet muhammed leads to violence not the pictures are the problem but the people you commit violence because of it.

And if people would stop playing the fantasy game if only we would give up that or do this maybe muslims would be happy is really a sign of a dying civilization and maybe thats what some people want. For most of us me included freedom was handed down on a silver plate and that is creating somekind of decadence where all things become relativistic, where words lose their meaning and where fear is the driving force towerds unfreedom. You can join that party of moral relativism or you can resist it thats up to you.

And now go back and wallow in self-pity and fantasize about a world of relativsim and the masochistic feeling of slavery, and then take a shower in moral absolutism.

Well, to say it in your own, extraordinary way: Grow up!

"not the pictures are the problem"
Absolutely. The drawers are the problem.

@fogman
thanx for proving my point.
@sebcrea this discussion leading no where,People been arguments
about this for centuries now.

No, I'd laugh it away and make fun of them. We're not mocking any moslim for very long, this will subside. It is a false comparison. But I know you'd like to make a good one. This is just a comparison very few people on your opponent side would take as correct.


-- following not aimed at Vinous_Beret specifically

Why would we stop arguing this? It's a good thing that this is being argued, rather than take immediate action or grow a silent hate. If one can't stand it better not take part in discussions at all. Everyone's voice is equal to the rest, and nobody is meant to make everyone change his opinion to theirs. The best way a discussion works is realising you contribute to the general public that agrees with your opinion, rather than make fantastic points full of truth that pursuade everyone. As we all try. But those points can not exist in these discussions, because both sides have valid reasons for their opinions. It is here a matter of weighting and meassuring, what is acceptable and what is too much? Discussions like these only can end with a local agreement where both parties lose on some points, but in the end can agree with eachother. Then the discussion has filled its purpose.

Now focus on understanding your opponents in this discussion, give arguments why you decided to disagree instead of giving odd comparisons (I've seen more in this thread :P), and respect the opinions of others here. Make priorities of where you truly stand for, and with what options you could live with and agree to give away. If you don't receive the same respect back, then leave the discussion as people are not worthy to discuss with.

Well, that's how I would like discussions to work . I'm pretty sure people here are to reason with the same way. I have changed my mind a bit on draw-a-muhammad day as I've understood both sides. I do think drawing muhammads should not be done out of respect.

But an event like this is also not the end of the world. I expect Muslims to show their voice against it and show disappointment in those who continue to participate in drawing Muhammads, but then they should leave it at that. The world is full of dickheads who can't be pursuaded, can't prevent that. The worst thing is to generalize those people with the general public, in both western and middle-east cultures . But I'm sure we all know that.

@Joozey
that's absolutely TRUE,again i am neutral here,i am not defending any side"regardless to my religion",i just wanted him to understand my point"which he seem's not".

Joozey made some very good points and actually he is right. Both sides have valid points and arguments.

The real problem are the stubborn people, who do not try to understand why the world works like this. These people go and kill people, bomb innocent pedestrians or they paint some pictures. Now ask yourself what is worse? Both groups are a bit too confident that they understood the real and only truth. But only some of them do real harm to other people.

Amen brother.

@Frank and thats why I think people should stop this kind of masochistic relativism, the reality is civilizations after sum time are getting weak exspecially in periods of freedom and that opens the playground for extrem ideas and today in the western world thats radical islam which even many westerners are attracted to.

There is a good documenatry from a muslim on the subject you can find a preview here The Third Jihad.

You argue with Franks arguments and in the same sentence you define "reality"...?

Actually I understand Sebcrea. Here is a definition of reality:

Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be.[1] In its widest definition, reality includes everything that is and has being, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

This means, reality is independent of our thinking or our religion. And history is something that exists no matter what we think about it. The same counts for already happened events like terror acts. They are reality.

Thus Sebcrea's statement is true.

Yes, and we are fighting back again and again and againnandagiandnaagain...
(imagine small stamping angry crying kids on both sides)

This was already my question in the other thread:
Who was first? Chicken or egg? If we are really honest - we don´t know it really.

Do you think this is the right way?

Edit: sorry for this very german post, but I can´t translate that not really:


Ok, it comes out of Wikipedia but it fits to my minds.

fogman: I think we are misunderstanding each other.

I am quite sure you are right in this. Someone has to stop. And in the case of Israel I believe that they are strong enough to stop this war. The same counts for us. We have to be strong, to be able to defend us, but we dont need to bring war to other countries (Afghanistan, Israel, Vietnam). This is the wrong reaction. But the real reason behind these wars are economical ones.

But when we become absolute pacifistic people with no defense then someone will erase us from the map as the Chinese did with the Tibetians.

You´ve summed it up quite good.
Of course it´s a dilemma and of course we should defend our country.
I don´t say that we have to be pacifistic.
I simply agree with you, that we don´t need to bring war to other countries.

This was indeed a misunderstanding.

I understand all of your point,but to make it clear once more again,most of you seems to be generalize the effect of your 'creativity' that you put towards big religion on your country,but once again,we are different,we don't care what you agnosticism,atheism done to other religion,but for our case it's different case.

For every action is full of consequences,whether it's directly,now,future,past.even in other religion have those concept(karma,good & bad) all will comes to you,to you atheism & agnosticism just remember simple concept of law conservation of energy.

To you who still have the brainwashed by islamphobia,islam = terrorist,please make your homework for researching the real one,about bali bomb I & II,go to metrotvnews.com(one of the most reliable and respected indonesian news source) , and ask them for interview(metro files & metro reality) from an CIA asset(local indonesian in which he blurred his faces in darkness and scrambled voices,he claim himself as a CIA asset and has some proof!) that have been planted on those groups who is responsible for those action,and if you have time to visit indonesia,
go visit ITB in bandung(Bandung institute of Technology),ask them one of lecturer whom have been involved helping the local & national police,agency,there is a indication(radius of blast & explosion,the effects,the aftermath,the victim burn effect,the surrounding building aftermath effect,etc) that the group have using a mini-nuclear bomb,which even our (Indonesia) military doesn't even have small scratch a tinnier gram for these material,the heads of the groups even shock that effect of blast is more than their planned to explode which suppose to be way smaller. Yes CIA has following our asses since our 1st president soekarno.Maybe a or some of you is member & asset of those intelligence agency.


Until those kids stops playing fps and mmo which normally just sits in their home and scold at someone,guess what their brain have teached them to redicule everything that moves,and until someone give a nice real physically palm in their face.That's when they realize to use their freedom of speech wisely,isn't it the concep of freedom of speech?,the mature results is to give a solution from every stands point,but in progress these kids must goes into this process if they doesn't grow up.

@alpha12 What are you talking about ?

Do you know who invented the word islamophobia und why ? (now you start google ... and ...)

Does the word "empathy" mean something to you?
If you apply it here, you´ll recognize that this was just an unfortunate choice of a word.

But that doesn´t negate his arguments.
Your questions implies to me that you´re really wear some blinders.

Though I can separate islamic people from the terrorists perfectly well, I must apologize for not taking in account that the normal islamic people too are affected by the drawings of muhammad. At first I didn't realize these people would bother with the numbnuts drawing muhammads for a week. But then, it would also be a bad thing when half of Asia starts drawing swastika's everyhwere just to show the western world they can do whatever they want. Yeah, they can, but it shows how little respect they would have to the war as well, while the war did not affected them as much as in the west.

Anyway, so my earlier posts were mainly pointed at the extremists, not taking in account the normal Islamic society. This is where I have changed my mind about the event.

exactly.

@alpha so you are suggesting the CIA is responsible for Bali ?

The rest of the posts are feelings gibberish people are allowed to make such pictures according to the law ( and thats not sharia) thats all you need to know.

I have another nice video for all you lefties out there who would rather but there mother in a burqa than to speak about problems with islam.

Mark Steyn

You should also take a look athis book America Alone.

Der Kerl im Video runzelt ständig die Stirn - scheint sehr voreingenommen zu sein.

We have no problems with the islam.
You seem to be the only one.



You just don´t get it, really?
Of course we are allowed, but is it good to draw them, just because we can?

This is plain childish. (I´ve a child, I can compare)

@fogman
Please write all in english, stick to the rules so everyone can read it.

The guy in the vid looks very biased. He frowns all the time.

So what?

You behave cynical and undifferentiated.
I can´t take you seriously.

This is a mistake. We should take other arguments always seriously (at least most of the time).

And I personally see valid points on both sides of this story. Just think a bit more about it. A real multi-culture society will lose not only the original culture, it might even destroy all of it's cultures involved in the long run. Maybe it creates a new culture, sometimes even a new language.

If this is a bad or a good thing, this is another story. I dont want to rate this, it is just a fact with a high probability.

I am personally not a big fan of praying to Jesus or his father, but I am proud of the fact, that my wife is allowed to go to work, to walk at my side on the street without hiding heir face and I am happy that my kids can grow up well.
At least this part of our culture is very important for me.
We should keep this in mind when we are thinking about giving up our culture.

will,that's the consequences of internet revolution



i read alot of books about different religions,as for islam,there is something called "strictness in Islam is forbidden" not all islamic women hiding thier faces,or even thier hair "excluding extremists",
besides it's not necessarily that all islamic people are extremists,
about 85% of islamic people are moderates,take an example "just an example" turkey,about 98% of turkish people are islamic,i never heard about turkish islamic extremists!!!have you??not all of turkish women cover's thier heads,and non of them covers thier faces.

Frank:
The difference is: you make arguments.

But to call a lot of people "lefties" in conjunction with an arrogant appearance - these are no arguments.

So he can´t expect that I take him seriously.
Even more, I could declare him as fundamentalist: (... ...)

I see Turkish women with covered hair or face almost each day. Maybe they dont live in Turkey anymore, but now they live in Germany, many of them in big cities like Berlin or Hamburg.

My brother knew a Turkish female student. She was very smart and open. But suddenly she came covered and did not speak with anyone just because her parents arranged a marriage with someone in Turkey.

Here, in this multi-cultural society (called Germany) you can experience all of this. Even the real bad side can be seen like brothers killing their own sisters just because they want to marriage another one. There is a special prison only for people like this. These people would not stand a chance in a normal prison. Nobody understands brutality like this, even the prisoners find it disgusting.
I would call this Islamic extremist.

The question is: How much sisters are murdered by their brothers in other cultures?

Every Xmas you can hear about family dramas.
And often it´s all about "proudness" and fear.
(Of course that sounds not so "exciting" like the term "Ehrenmord" ("honor killing")...) ...pffffft...

An example from germany:
http://www.stern.de/panorama/bruder-toet...ren-640561.html

Now I wouldn´t call this extremistic. It´s just plain stupid in my eyes.

fogman: your example has not much to do with what I wrote. Vinuous_Beret said there are no Turkish extremist. I know, there are one. They did not kill their sisters because of psycho-logic sickness. They did because of their religion. Because they believe a daughter has to marriage the man selected by their father.

Your example is different. I know there are other reasons why people kill other people, why people kill animals and why people kill themselves. But the reason of my post was to discuss an example of extremists.

I am also not a fan of killing people especially since I do Karate sports. It is stupid but still there is the fact, that some of these stupid murders are driven by religious thoughts based in their Islamic belief. And I am absolutely sure the same applies to other religions including some crazy Christians.

you said it man.
killing is killing,no matter what is the motive.

Funny thing is, that we differ between religion motives and psychologic sickness.
I think we can´t really separate these motivations.

If you follow the argumentation of the, let´s say "educated atheistic hardliners", it comes out: fundamentalists are seen as psychos.

So were is the difference then?

the difference can only be seen when some one want's to.
when the soviet union inveded Afghanistan the USA did it's best to support afghani trrorists"as allies" ,after SU got out of afghanistan,the usa saw in the same (allies) real threat to it's national security,so they invaded afghanistan to salvage the world of
(trrorism).
p.s: osama bin laden's family own's almost half of usa oil companies till now!!!.

The difference is the motivation. If someone murders out of religious motivation then it is part of their culture. They plan this murder and they even say after the murder that they are convinced to do the right thing. They are not sorry.

But when someone does it out of an affection or out of a sickness, then it is not part of a culture. They often tell later that it was wrong and that they are sorry.