Closed Topic, don't come, seriously.

This post has been hidden.

So why are you wasting your time making games and not being out there on the righteous quest of destroying the world? You should learn how to build neuclear bombs, not 3d models...
The "it's not our problem"-attitude is being discussed a lot in german media lately. People walking by a stranger who's getting beaten up, thinking "it's not my problem"... it actually got him killed.

Honestly, Joquan, you're probably right, it's not your problem. It'll be your childrens...

Go and kill yourself to push our planet towards it's destiny

Again, American, and, as it sounds conservative and creationist (at least very religious). See, I was right.

I think it is very stupid to say "god wants the Earth to be destroyed", that's like not helping someone after a car accident, because "god wants him to die", or not giving someone vital medicine, or not selling condoms, because "god wants people to get AIDS".
And what if there is no god? There are more non-christians than christians on the Earth! It is stupid and intolerant to say YOUR god wants the Earth to be destroyed. What if I say, the Flying Spaghetti Monster wants YOU to save the Earth?

Maybe the video in ventilator's link was right, I hope you could understand it...

This post has been hidden.

@joquan
No, it won't. A few reasons:

1. I don't want kids.
2. We (The Christians) are not immortal, yet. Once Christ returns, we will shed our earthly bodies for our glorious and beautiful spiritual bodies, and live in Eternal Paradise. That means, as of now, we can't handle the destruction of our planet, as it isn't our problem to handle, even if we all wanted to.

these are two reasons , a few would be 3 or more.

1. I don't want kids.

its a shame your parents didnt feel this way.

kids inherit alot from there parents , so you would have kids like you. this being the case i dont blame you for not wanting kids.

This post has been hidden.

you went very fast from ceo to profit of god.

by the way dimension softworks?

sounds alot to me like my mindslide gameworks!

same number of letters and everything. and you dont have enough fake company names already?

This post has been hidden.

Hihi... I think I'll turn atheist after all.

And I always thought that religion is obsolete in our modern world but not just bad, with some positive and suportable aspects...
But reading Joquans posts make religion seem really a bad thing. How can someone believe in such bullshit.
I remember some "joke", no idea where it comes from. It was something about a drowning man and each time a boat finds him and wants to help he refuses it with the argument that god will save him. He dies and asks god why he didn´t save him and god tells him that he sent several boats to save him. You, Joquan would definatly behave the same if your posts here reflect your real thinking. How can you think that you are able to understand god and his signs?
Where the sumerian gods the real ones? At least there where people believing in them before there even was an idea of the bible. And even better, the bible uses some of their storys. Have they really been wrong?
Don´t moslems have the same rights to get into paradies as christians? At least the god seems to be the very same to me.
There actually is no right or wrong, only the evidence that religion is great to be missused, which already caused a lot of misery.

I basicly have ventilators opinion. It doesn´t matter if we cause global warming or not, but it is always a good thing to improve things, which we know can be done better.
As far as I know, there were problems with acid rain some time ago. To me it seems as if mankind managed to change that. Why shouldn´t we go on with taking care of our environment?

This post has been hidden.

Atheist fag here, isn't every god right? Religion isn't because you need a reason to kill your neighbor, but something for the day when your life is really fucked up.

In my opinion, the only real reason to pray is because there is nothing else left.

You want your religion accepted? Accept the other bullshit too.

Hahah, better not. Religions, while in a sense perfectly fine with me as far as personal freedom of speech and personal religion goes, should perhaps not be accepted for a mere 'just because'-kind of reasoning.

In my opinion theists need something better to justify their worldview. Don't get me wrong, I've got no problems when people believe in something entirely different than me, but I do think one shouldn't be able to call it truth or make (ridiculous) supernatural claims when it's not based on (significant and/or relevant) evidence in such a sense that you can actually speak of truth (however relativistic that really is, even in science).

To be honest I think from a rational point of view a lot can actually be said for just banning world religion as a whole. The only problem is that it would have zero practical benefits doing so (at this point in time), being as popular as it is it would simply disappear underground. Not to mention the fact that it would violate the freedom of speech/opinion kind of stuff I think is even more important than explaining why I think organized religion should disappear.

Then again, do members of organized religions ever truly think for themselves? It's one thing to agree, a whole another to follow in blind unconditional faith. Especially when knowing that most people have their own 'personal version' of their beliefs anyway.

Joquan, if I would believe in god, I would take your behaviour as gods sign to really hurt you.
And I am very sure that one can find many, very clear quotes in the bible which state your thinking as completely wrong.
And sorry to let you know this truth, but your god is fake as well and was made up and kept alive to exploit the believers.
And btw, is the catholic or the protestant or some other church the true one in your opinion? Just wondering, as they also all believe in the same god, but see things kinda different, so I guess all their gods are fake as well?

This post has been hidden.

I don't really get involved with these religious discussions because it's futile. You won't change the mind of a theist/atheist with words.

Why do you guys even bother to argue about it? Accept that there either is a God, or there isn't and stop worrying and get on with your life.

This post has been hidden.

'commanded' huh? Why would you be commanded if you have free will to think and say what you want?

You really should stop worrying about it. How does an athiest affect you?

This post has been hidden.

so you want to puke , and then eat your puke.

This post has been hidden.

I can see that you don't like being given advice.

Most human laws are based on the 'laws of god' so they can't really be 'nothing'. I'd say it's safe to say, without them, we wouldn't have much of a society.

I can see that anything I say you'll disupte or won't be convincing, but that's not my objective. I do not wish to disprove your faith, I just wish you would open your mind a little.

Can't you at least think that there is a possibility, even so small, that you may be wrong?

This post has been hidden.

and just like that, you are wrong. thus, your argument is invalid. and batman rides an elephant. but since you do belive in god (who does not exist by the way, but thats not for this topic) you probably dont ahve the midn to actually THINk, and that explains alot.

anyway, fuck global warming, its normal. happens all the time. a few hundred thousand years ago the same thing already happened. nobody cared. we are too many humans on this planet anyway, finding a way against overpopulation is what we do...

humans...
the only race ever to work on making itself obsolete. its what we do^^

According to the Westboro baptist church, you will go to hell for this. They must be right, they believe in Jesus and your god!

You can thank me later for this warning.

This post has been hidden.

Everything need to have evidence to be credible. If you sue someone for murder, but you have no evidence at all, just "faith"; then the accused will be acquit, because he is innocent until proven guilty.
This rule exists in all courts in the free world and there is a reason for it. If something does not have any supporting evidence, it should be regarded as wrong until proven true. There is no evidence for Allah, the Flying Spagetthi Monster, Thor, Zeus, Vishnu, or the Christian god! You don't believe in the other religions, what makes yours so special?

I hope you never get in charge of a board of education.
There is plenty of evidence supporting evolution and the big bang.
Parts of the human body could be called "badly designed" (if they were designed), but evolution makes clear why it has these flaws. And don't forget vestigal organs.
The universe is expanding. We know that and we can prove that. This means, in the past it has been smaller. And, as we know that the speed of light is limited and constant, we know that the further we look away into the universe, the further we look into the past. And we can't see further than ca. 14 billion lightyears (that's where we see the microwave background). And if we calculate the expansion of the universe back, we see that it must have had the size 0 ca. 14 billion years ago. This point of time is called the big bang. And you see, no one made that number "14 million years" up. You can calculate that the universe has that age.


And I said there are more non-christians than christians and you denied that. But just look at the numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
There are ca. 2.2 billion christians. There 6,857,400,000 people on the Earth. That means there are about 4.7 non-christians.

If heaven is full of fanatics like you, I don't want to be there anyway. And if you think you have such a great afterlife and we don't, then let us save our planet to make our life as good as possible, while you don't care, because of your dreams of a great eternal afterlife.

And if we are going to find out anyway, why bother trying to convince us?

This post has been hidden.

@Jquan
So, lets begin:

"Love your neighbor as yourself"
- Looking at your rude posts, you fail here As a "mega Christian" you should follow such an important law given by Jesus

"If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6,29
- I don't see this attitude either. You are like an islamic fundametalist, turn the words around to serve your agressive strategy here.

You have nothig of real christian. A real christian is tollerant, full of love and understanding for the people around him.

You always talking of The sun of god, Jesus your/our hero.
But If you compare the way you act here to Jesus life you will see a difference. He let the Mob execute him. He called Peter back, when he tried to defend him with his sword. he always has spoken about love and peace. There is nothing that justifies your agressive behaviour.


From the christan site of view it should be like this:
God made the world. It is his creation, his masterpiece (or her?). Why should a christian disrespect this and destroy the world on porpouse. If you don't respect nature and creation you also don't respect god.
If you destroy the world it is a disrespect and violence against all following generations.--See quote above.

So and now lets start with the insults and racial stereotyps:

USA christians are pathetic. They only go to church, to be seen in it, so they can say: Hey I am a christian.
But there is no brotherly love, not very much "help the poor and the needy". Only themselfes matter.

@ontopic
I am a christian too. But I belive It is our task to preserve the earth. It is not our task to destroy it. It is like a test, how we respect god




And you are an idiot Joquan ...

Wasn't this about global warming? When a thread turns towards a religious discussion how long does it take until somebody calls another one a Nazi?

Aaaand I belive Global warming is caused partialy by us and natural effects.

This is a doublepost:

I think the ones who ignore the problems our planet have with us are driven by fear. Fear to loose comfort, fear to loose money, because of new taxes, technologiesand so on.

This post has been hidden.

So you reject all other religions and think yours is true, because yours is true?



I already told you about some of the evidence that evolution and the big bang are true. There is so much overwhelming evidence, but you reject it, just because it contradicts your religion.
And apart from the gospels, which have been written decades after Jesus' death, there is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that Jesus EVER EXISTED! I don't think some books that have been written decades based on oral lore after his death are very reliable, and as is seems that there wasn't anyone who thought Jesus was worth to be written about while he was still alive, I think, if he ever existed, stories about his "miracles" are extremely overexaggerated.


It won't hurt me? I would have to spent my life with nutters like you, and after I die, and if there is no afterlife, I wasted the only life I had.
I was raised as a christian, I was baptized and I had my First Communion, and then changed my mind and became an atheist for a reason. Which means I thought about my decision.
You, I guess were also raised as a christian but you didn't change your mind. Which means, you stubbornly keep your opinion, and other than me, are unable to ever change your mind even when you face overwhelming evidence against what you believe.

So, when someone shows you a bible quote, which you don't like, you deny that this is in the bible?!?!?!?!?

You are the most ignorant and stupid person I have ever seen.

-----
And actually Frank is right, this was about global warming...

What do you have to lose? Why not go green? It won't hurt you.

@Machinery_Frank: Gowdin's Law! ... we can't escape it!
Though the exact number of years it'll take does yet have to be discovered. Maybe we should just call someone a Nazi, so we're over it. Naaahzi!

Anyways, I really like jenGs' view here...
And Lukas, that image rocks! Though there's a few cool US christians as well...

Hey, Joquan, have you considered this: The more you talk in this thread the less people like Spike wanna become christians. I think if you want to convince people, do so by actions. Show them that the christian love is a good thing. Don't insult them. Don't destroy the earth their children will live on because it's God's plan to destroy it. Save it as long as you can, and if it's God's will to destroy it, you can be assured you won't be hindering him if you go green...

This post has been hidden.

I'm sorry I don't see how 'going green' relates to evolution?



Maybe you can explain that bit? How is 'going green' a sin?

This post has been hidden.

Hm. But if God provides for me like that, why do we go to work? Why do we worry about politics, wars... if God will provide for us? Why do we grow food? And is not the ability to grow food closely linked to the "go green" idea? Preserving the soil today so it can be used tomorrow...
There's simply no way going green can be bad, if done right. It might, of course, as you say, increase your love for this planet. But there is nothing wrong with that. You're not to store your earthly treasures (i.e. money, possessions), but then again that is not at all what going green means. Loving, preserving, caring for the environment we love in is in no way sin. And I believe that the true nature of "going green" is the caring for each other, not the caring for earthly goods. It is the human race trying to preserve a planet for their children, because of love for their fellow humans.
Was Jesus alive today I'm sure there'd be quotes in the bible like "clean up after yourself" or "preserve the earth in a way so that following generations can also live at the high standard you're living at."

Slin, the story you're quoting is in this book: http://www.anderezeiten.de/bestellen/ind...ere-zeiten.html (a very nice book with loads of fun stories) though of course it could be that you heard it elsewhere.

The Shroud of Turin is fake, it was made in the 13th or 14th century:


Evolution: There are many vestigal organs. For example, there are birds that can't fly but still have wings. What would god give them wings for?
All flying insects have two pairs of wings. Flies seem to have only one. But they actually have two pairs of wings, but one of them is vestigal.
All species can be ordered in a tree of shared features. Why would god make it like this? Evolution exlains this, species in one branch share a common ancestor.
On islands far away from mainland there are no mammals except for bats, because they can fly. If god put all mammals on Earth, why didn't he put some on faraway islands?
The laryngeal nerve is a nerve that goes from the brain down to the chest, where is devides, and one of the branches goes up to the larynx. Why would make it make such a detour? Why didn't he make it devide already in the neck? Again, evolution explains it, we share a common ancestor with fishes, which lookes rather like fishes, which don't have a neck. When the neck grew, the nerve became longer, and the branching couldn't move because there veins in the way.
And what is the last time you drank something and choked on it? Did you never ask why god made your trachea next to your oesophagus, so this can happen? Couldn't he made it like gills? Again, evolution explains this, our lungs didn't evolve from gills, but rather from the swimming bladders of fishes.

You can't deny any of this evidence. And if you do, you should mistrust doctors who want to heal you based on this knowledge.

Big Bang: I already showed you the evidence, like the expansion of the universe and the micrtrowave background. These are facts you can't deny.



You already told me I'm going to hell because I'm an atheist.
So, you think all the evidence against christianity is made by Satan? Wow, if they really made you believe that, that makes you really immune against all kinds of evidence against you. But you only believe that Satan made that evidence because you already believe in christianity, which for you includes believing that all evidence against christianity is made by Satan, which means it must be true. Again, circular reasoning works because...



First of all, it was not ME, who posted that bible quote. You are so not listening properly (or reading actually), that you don't even know that jenGs posted that, not me.
Look at his comment:
"- I don't see this attitude either. You are like an islamic fundametalist, turn the words around to serve your agressive strategy here."
What he means is that your agressive way contradicts the bible (at least the new testament).



You are the only person I think is likely to really don't understand that "seen" is not meant litterally, like seeing your face...
Otherwise this comment is stupid anyway.


Ah I see. This would have been even funnier if you had started the "Where do atheists get their morals from?" thing, like people of your kind often do.
You are now saying that you are doing this, not because you feel it's the right thing, but only to get a reward. You make an impression like if you would know there is no god, you would become evil, as there is no other reason to be good than the reward you hope to get in heaven.

Not to ruin your argument here, but in essence individual people on earth are first and foremost just trying to survive, deal with life and be a part of modern society (ie. earn money so they can enjoy their personal and materialistic freedoms).

Most people really do not care about the planet for as long as it (=pollution as a whole) doesn't hurt them personally.

Humans can be (and in many cases will be) incredibly selfish.

It's the way it works for most, especially the lower their incomes are and the less true power individuals have. That's a generalization of course, but a pretty good one considering the environmental pollution in this world.

Genuine idealists motivated enough to really do something are a dying breed if you ask me, just look at how many financial bloodsuckers spawned from the whole 'green energy' hype. Not to mention the political puppets that even if they got the right kinds of ideas take forever to really accomplish change. They're all really more interested in your money in their pockets, than they are in actually changing the world.

How come alternative energy isn't just free and available for all? How come the better alternatives aren't promoted by local governments? How come not one government on this planet has banned automobiles that run on oil-based fuels to preserve nature? How come we get to pay a lot more for allegedly 'cleaner' fuel? Did you know that in many countries you actually pay an additional tax for solar panels on your house?

If you want true progress, then we should change our reliance on fossil fuels today and start driving in different cars tomorrow... Invest in truly durable energy. But no one is willing to really pay the prize.

Not to mention that change won't even occur when only a handful of people really act up to do something (and trust me then I am not talking about Greenpeace trying to save whales. As that's really pointless and a stupid waste of time. There are more important fish to catch, why not go after them instead?). It needs to come from the top, but in my mind just paying money as a debt to nature isn't the answer to this. Things need to be done.

At the same time I can't help but hold a somewhat fatalistic view that individual change is futile considering the scale of the problem. For as far as it's a true problem.



First, that would never ever end up in the bible. Religions are more concerned with the after life they can blind their followers with than true life here and now. It's also why it doesn't say that we should NOT wage war, but instead almost seems to promote it together with hands full of other dirt.

Also, perhaps financial or social high standards in some cases yes, but the world as a whole already is a huge mess.

Religious wars, massive pollution, political conflicts that go nowhere and then I haven't even started on murders and other lesser scale crimes. (I'm not talking about some kind of Armageddon-type climax of evil on earth here, just calling things the way they are and have always been.)

I'm not sure I'd wish my great-grandchildren all that actually, even if it would mean they'd have exactly the same chances in life as I've got. I'd say it would essentially mean not changing the world at all, which I'd say is a bad thing.

Let's just hope Joquan never rises to any political/educational power. His views are seriously twisted. It is all fine and dandy having faith in God, but to think that helping restore the planet is a sin is just crazy.

Aren't Christians supposed to help each other? This urge to do nothing to help make the earth a cleaner place makes me think you are just using religion to mask an evil/spiteful interior.

As for the big bang the evidence is there, but probably not why/how it happened. That's where I think the link between sceience and religion is. Maybe there is a higher power that created the big bang, but i think that is it. I don't think this 'being' is an active part of our lives. It let evolution take over.

I thought the LHC was supposed to answer these questions?

Eventually, I think more and more people will accept evolution as fact because the evidence is overwhelming already. We learn more and more each century and hopefully there will be a time when evolution is no longer called a theory.

Lets just ban him.
Anyone not in favour of the motion?

PS: Yes, I read the whole thread.

"We learn more and more each century and hopefully there will be a time when evolution is no longer called a theory."

There is a huge different between a "theory" in common language and a scientific theory. A theory like you call it, would in science be called a hypothesis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
The "theory" of evolution is no more doubted than the "theory" of gravity.

This post has been hidden.

I love that idea, I really do.
The problem is freedom of speach, religion and whatever. As long as he doesn´t really attack us, it would be wrong to ban him, even though it may is gods wish to have him banned for his stupidity.
I am just not able to understand his ignorant and stupid way of thinking.

But he is hurting me... physically. Every post is like another kick to the head.

"Penguins use them for swimming. Ostriches use them to propel themselves faster, etc."
Sure some birds "found" other ways to use their wings but why give pinguins wings instead of fins?

"That is man's way of organizing things."
No, it's not. You totally missed my point. You won't find any non-bird with feathers. That's a fact. There is no mammal that has feathers, so why did god give feathers only to birds, which also share the fact that they have beaks, wings and legs, etc.
Bats can fly, but they have no feathers, becaus ethey are mammals. It would have been no problem for god to give them feathers, but they don't have feathers, because they share no common ancester with birds that already carries the genes for feathers.

"Because there needs to be balance."
Did you even read what I said??
There are mammals all over the world. Why wouldn't god put some mammals on some faraway islands? There surely are mammals on islands like Britain, which is near to the European mainland and was once even a part of it. It doesn't hurt its balance.

"Once again, because God had a plan for us. As of now, not everything about us is known."
God damnit, you are totally ignoring my point again!! It would not make any sense to make that detour, if we were designed. But evolution explains this elegantly! Doesn't that make you worry your believes are wrong??

"The reason we choke on liquids, and we cannot breathe underwater is because we were not meant to."
This time you didn't even care remotely about what I said!! I DIDN'T ASK WHY GOD MAKE US CHOKE ON LIQUIDS!!!! THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DUMB!!! I asked, why is the trachea is next to the oesophagus, making choking necessary so often! Fishes have gills, which aren't near their oesophagus, which means they aren't in danger of choking while eating! If we are designed, it makes no sense that the trachea is next to the oesophagus, but if we are made by evolution it does make sense!


"Who says that all doctors heal you according to this knowledge?"
Well, if a doctor didn't heal me according to the facts of anatomy/biology, I would go to an other doctor. You can happily going to a doctors who still think bloodletting is helpful. Oh, no wait, you don't go to doctors, you pray to you god to heal you e.g. if you get cancer.


"I didn't say that Satan personally comes up with fake evidence. He influences his followers."
I didn't say that you said that! You ignored my point again! MY POINT WAS THAT YOU ARE USING CIRCULAR REASONING!


"Aggression does not mean that I am contradicting any part of the Bible. It says that Jesus will come back, riding on a white horse, in royal clothes, striking down his opposition."
Seriously, you sounds like a troll. I mean dude...


Like I said, you aren't good for the sake of being good. And it worries me that you put a non-existing being to a higher priority than existing people.



--------

And there is an other evidence for evolution I forgot to mention:
The retina of the human eye (which you creationists always name as perfect and irreducable complex) is backwards! The nerves that lead the information from the eyes to the brain are ABOVE the seeing cells! And as they have to get out of the eye, there is a hole in the retina where they get out, the blind spot.

And I agree with Slin, we shouldn't ban Joquan for this. Christian fundamentalists/creationists censor their websites/Youtube videos all the time, and if we do that too, we are no better than they are.

It's the appendix that always has me questioned. I mean what does it do apart from randomly kill you!

I once had a discussion with a christian nutcase who even admitted that vestigial organs like appendix or backwards developed retina exist and are evidence of evolution. But he told me that according to the bible God invented them intentionally for making people suffer as a revenge for Adams fall.

This post has been hidden.

joquan , if you really want to bring humanity closer to god , use your passion of games! instead of project pheonix , or whatever it is, make a game about saving peoples souls or something. i mean lets face it , this a video game designers forum , and your nonsense was funny at first , but gets old fast and if you try , and i mean really try to learn 3d gamestudio or lite c you will start to get it! its all about how much you want it and how hard you try. you will find it feels much better to get a compliment on a job well done here, than the kind of responses you are used to. and it would show people here you are serious and not just the clown we all see you as.

you have not asked for help yet , youve asked for free employees! try to do it yourself and if you have problems , ask nicely and you will get help. probably not team members right away but help im sure.

This post has been hidden.

you are as thick as a brick.

This post has been hidden.

how could that possibly be a compliment?

please tell me a scenerio where telling someone they were thick as brick could be a compliment.

and from what i see no one here likes you , you dont like anyone here,and you dont use 3d gamestudio , so why do you hang out here? are you a glutton for punishment?

This post has been hidden.

steady, and does not change their beliefs.

this is not always a good thing , like in your case.

That's right, you'd done a much better job when you kept your mouth shut. You're giving a pathetic spectacle of Christians, letting them appear ignorant, resentful and pompous. Do God and yourself a favor and keep your opinion to yourself. God gave us a brain to think and we all will be judged by our acts and character. You'll be surprised to find that Agnostics can end up in heaven and some "Christians" can end up in hell if it exists.

And still - although I like your variant way more - its just something you mortal human beings claim
When I die I'll propably just die and thats the end of the story. So I am just doing what feels good in life - and thank god (metaphorical) that I'm such a nice person, I feel good from being good to other people - WITHOUT having to scare myself or others with thoughts of some eternal torture

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you, Joquan. You think I'm going to SUFFER FOR ETERNITY just because I dont believe in some FLYING ALLMIGHTY ALIEN?!

Joquan, it seems that you are out of arguments (or did you ever have any?). Surely you wouldn't stop this discussion, just because it's hopeless, because you want to continue harvesting heaven-points.

I kind of feel like we won the discussion...

i thought in heaven everyone is happy? won't it fuel a lot of envy if some eternal souls are happier than others because they got more rewards from god? so what is this heaven-point harvesting all about?

When someone's wrong, they're still wrong, whether they are stubborn about it or not is really utterly irrelevant.

The reason you do not change your belief, is not because it is a good thing not to change your belief, but because you ignore the good arguments made entirely.

That's your choice, but don't expect us to fall for the idea that a steady faith is somehow more important than the actual truth we are interested in.

In other words, you're brainwashed.

oh my, i know EXACTLY what you mean. everytime i read stuff like this...



... i just want to smash my head on my table.


whenever i read something joquan wrote, it reminds me of this dandy little picture here.

And yes, i know that you're not quite fond of those images, which i can understand, but sometimes, there's just no better way to put it.

I moderated out all of my posts in this topic, since none of you seem to get the point. It will make it so no one can continue the discussion, until I get a moderator to completely delete it.

If you think you are right and we just didn't get your point, why delete it? Maybe someone else who reads this gets your point? So why prevent people from reading what you said?

Because it will continue a discussion of which I don't have time for.

To everyone: One other reason I took this out is because I realized that it was kind of dumb to even continue this, because I know that no one will listen. Sorry if I offended anyone, I won't be posting many more religious topics in THIS forum for a while. (Seems that there are generally atheists here, and not many Christians that I know of.)

This topic wont be closed just because one party is running out of arguments.

I didn't say that is what the problem was. I don't have the time to continue this discussion that is obviously going nowhere.

"Seems that there are generally atheists here, and not many Christians that I know of."
Hehe, this is some kind of NATURAL SELECTION, something you deny.
I think there are many christians in this forum, but it's especially atheists that would take part in discussions like you started. The other group is, of course fundamentalists like you. Normal, moderate christians on this forum would rather work on their games than spending their time with these discussions. And many of them don't even think so much about religion, while atheists mostly became ones by a decision, which means they already have thought much about religion and especially habe arguments.
And there is a correlation between education and atheism. And creating games requires being smart and educated.

"I didn't say that is what the problem was. I don't have the time to continue this discussion that is obviously going nowhere."
Then just stop posting.
By trying to delete this thread you draw more attention which will make this discussion continue.

Joquan, or Jake, you say the following:

You know what's missing in this list? Friends, Family and the like, i.e. what really counts. Let me give you a helpful advise:
Stop with game design, stop with web design, stop with everything that belongs to your "company". You say you have not much spare time, you say you basically use computers 24/7. That's a bad sign, esp. when you are this young. Simply drop it!
Get out of your room, get some real friends, not only nerds or weird internet wise guys that stay with you because you're the only one who pays attention to them, get some real friends (and treasure the ones you already have). According to your posts I currently cannot think of anyone that would be proud to be your friend - sorry if this sounds too harsh, but no one likes to be dictated in every way imaginable... and no one likes smart asses. You could easily end up to be alone all your life, so be careful.
You may think my post has no context, that it does not belong in any way to topic, but in some years you'll probably (hopefully) understand it.

Enjoy your life, enjoy and live every moment of your youth - there will be enough years when you have to deal with CEOs and the like -, but stay away from computers as much as you can. (You will know yourself then when it's time to get back into game design if you still wish to do so.)
And don't forget to spend enough time with your mother, help her where you can, and take care of the rest of your family!

(post scriptum: A friend of mine and I once tried to help a guy with an attitude similar to your's. He told us for years that we only talk pure garbage and want to fret him, he knew everything. When we got into the final grade, he slowly realized how much time, how many years of his life he had wasted with his stubborn attitude, only to attack us and to blame us that we did not help him earlier.)

hiding your post's in this thread is cowardly , and imature. if you dont want people to see your posts , then DONT POST! if i were you i might go back to my first posts and study them a bit to see what you did wrong , maybe you can learn from this train wreck and grow as a person a little. but i doubt it.

It helps you digest raw meat silly human.

I need it for when I'm out late at night hunting for dear and joggers. And no I don't use a rifle, you humans need to learn how to use your sharp teeth! And stop wasting electricity on stoves you newbs! Just eat the bloody meat after your kill, it tastes better that way!

Shesh all this talk about global warming and you human still cook your food. And who is this god? What does he taste like?

silly humans ? , is this a joke and i missed it? or are you not human ? if its the latter just how many rectal probings have you givin? and whats with the cow mutalations?

i knew the truth was out there.

My apologizes dude I was just so dumbfounded after reading this whole thread for 30 minutes. I mean my brain hurts from reading this.

I know nothing about rectal probes, but I'm really sorry about the cows. I'll be sure to finish eating those cows from now on. I am a large carnivorous animal btw, I thought my name was a hint?

now i get it, the zero must have thrown me off.

"Either share my opinion or have no opinion of your own!"

Why would you stop just because there aren't many who think alike? It's one of those incredibly dumb things. I guess in your mind it's really not about who's actually right in a discussion, but it's about who's with the most proverbial fists to back their empty claims up. Unbelievable.

Having said that, I totally respect your view even if I really totally disagree with it. Even if it's indeed a bit silly to continue down this road. A lot of arguments have already passed through this forum and I frankly can't remember any theist's argument that really stuck except for their claim that science can not disprove God. Of course the burden of proof should really be on the one who's claiming something exists. In my mind claiming we can't proof it, isn't enough.

If you believe in random selection and physics and all that I'm sure you can estimate the probability that something like us, here, today, can exist. Following general atheist belief and scientific proof gives me a probability which is essentially zero. Thus it would be only logical if there was something which privileged our development.

edit: In fact, if you now answer "but the probability is not zero, there is the chance that all that happened by accident" I agree. But I hope you see that this argument would not be valid for someone who claims to be on the all-proven side of the world, because, as we just calculated, odds would be so much against him that this would be "blind belief".

No one claimed we say it all came by accident. It's the creationists who claim that we claim that.

There only had to be one first self-reproducing cell at the beginning, and natural selection did the rest. We don't know how that cell came into being, maybe it even was an accident, but if we look at the size of the universe, which is propably even infinite, then that's not impropable at all. And if the universe really has an infinite size, the chance for anything impropable, but possible to happen somewhere in the universe would be 100%.

Even from one self-reproducing cell it would have been highly improbable that higher life should develop. And the probability that intelligent life, dominant through its brainpower (something I question sometimes), would develop, is even smaller.
Your conclusion is correct, of course. But still, why are you here? I mean, your consciousness, the thing that is you, is here, now. Why? You're not here anymore in two hundred years. It hasn't existed before. It's hard to believe that consciousness comes out of nothing.
Furthermore, it's not logical to say that the universe is infinite. Why? Because chances that a dominant species with faster-than-light-travel should have developed somewhere is not zero, thus it must exist. But I'm not a slave yet, so your argumentation leads me to the conclusion that the universe is not infinite.

So my argument remains valid.

@Lukas:
The base things to create a cell where created by some elements colliding with electricity(a bit hard for me to explain in english).
We talked about it in school and that this procedure had been reproduced in a laboratory. In its early stages, the world hat lots of bolts flashing into the water(wild times 8-) )

Those created organic base elements later(after x years) reacted to a simple cell.

Iam not someone wo says there is god(or something like this). IAm more a person that beliefs in technology and biology.

BUT: Iam not someone who says that believing in god is wrong.
Everybody has its own way.
Thats human individuality. If someone cant accept different opinions and points of views, hes absolutely wrong between other humans, doesnt matter if he beliefs in god, in beer, chocolate,Santa or science.


GReets
Rackscha

The human brain helped us surviving. That's what natural selection is all about. If a mutation helps an organism to survive, the new genes will replace the old ones.

"Furthermore, it's not logical to say that the universe is infinite. Why? Because chances that a dominant species with faster-than-light-travel should have developed somewhere is not zero, thus it must exist. But I'm not a slave yet, so your argumentation leads me to the conclusion that the universe is not infinite."
Firt of all, there is evidence that the universe is indeed infinite. It could be curved like the Earth's surface, so we would return to the beginning after going in the same direction all the time, but it rather seems that it's pretty flat on larger scales.
Faster-than-light-travelling has a propability of 0%, because it's not possible. And alien species are so impropable that, if they exist, they couldn't detect us and reach us before both races are extinct, because if they are a million lightyears away, light needs a million light years to get there.

Rackscha: Yeah I know that amino acids have been created this way in a lab, but not a cell. We don't know exactly how these chemicals formed the first living cell.

"Firt of all, there is evidence that the universe is indeed infinite."

Please tell me where you've got that information from.

Various sources. I think jcl said that the universe is most likely infinite. And I e.g. saw a Youtube video of a speech of a physicist who explained that the universe is most likely infinite, because it's flat on large scales.

I'm not saying it's a sure fact, but I'm saying that according to the evidence an infinite universe is likely.

Ah ok, so there is no evidence. We possibly only see the universe flat on large scales because our perception is limited to three dimensions (or four when you take the time as a dimension into account, too), we may see the universe as a projection into our perception like a two-dimensional shadow of a plane moving in three dimensions. As I don't want to hijack this thread, I will stop here.

No, we know the room is curved by mass, and that causes gravity. We know that although we can't look from the "outside in the 4th dimension" or something. One of the effects of a curved space is that the angles of a triangle don't add up to 180° (like if you take a triangle from the North pole, to the euqator, to an other point on the quator, 90 degrees of longitude away, and back to the north pole. That's 3*90°=270°>180°.). In that Youtube video that physicist said that this can be measured by observing some stars, and the sum of the angles is 180°, which means space is flat on larger scales. This means, the universe is either infinite, or must have some "end" somewhere and the latter case sounds pretty unlikely.

Why would an end be so unlikely? I think it's more a 50/50 kind of thing actually.

As Stephen Hawking proved the universe pretty much most certainly had a start (his reversed blackhole theory) and has been expanding ever since the Big Bang.

I think infiniteness here is a somewhat semantical thing. Does 'ever expanding' mean 'infinite' also? Or does it have to be 'without boundaries'? What if it has a boundary that's expanding too fast to ever catch up with? I'd say that would qualify as 'infinite' from our perspective as well.

I'm guessing the bottom-line of the question itself whether it's finite or infinite has got more to do with the potential of being a reoccurring event on the largest scale.

I have no idea what Hawking and co. think of that though.

"No, we know the room is curved by mass, and that causes gravity."
Where's the context? (btw the room is curved by mass, energy and pressure, AFAIK)

As we only see the stars as a projection without curve, the sum of angles has to be 180° which does not prove anything.

Btw the accelerating expansion of the universe is something that could (!) be a result of a finite, bend universe.

"Where's the context?"
The context is that the universe could be finite but endless if it was curved, like a "4D-Sphere" (or 5D if time is also curved that way). But if it's flat, it's rather infinite. That's why I started talking about curved space.

If you walk on the triangle I told you about in my last post, you would also "just walk on the projection" and still measure 270°. Same for the universe. Trust me, we can measure that space is curved, or Einstein would have never found that out in the first place.

Expansion has nothing to do with an infinite or finit universe.


@PHeMoX:
"Why would an end be so unlikely? I think it's more a 50/50 kind of thing actually."
That would prompt many questions, like how do things behave near the end. What if you try to go beyond that end? Should there be an undestructable end? That somehow sounds... unlikely. But maybe possible.

"I think infiniteness here is a somewhat semantical thing. Does 'ever expanding' mean 'infinite' also? Or does it have to be 'without boundaries'? What if it has a boundary that's expanding too fast to ever catch up with? I'd say that would qualify as 'infinite' from our perspective as well."
I guess that would be no real infinity, although we couldn't distinguish it. But we can't look further than 14 billion lightyears anyway, if there is some boundary behind it, we would never find out.

"Trust me, we can measure that space is curved, or Einstein would have never found that out in the first place."
Hm ok...

"Expansion has nothing to do with an infinite or finit universe."
I talked about the fact that the expansion of the universe gets faster and faster, this could be caused by a finite universe.

"I talked about the fact that the expansion of the universe gets faster and faster, this could be caused by a finite universe."
But why would a finite universe rather expanse faster than an infinite one? Don't think an infinite universe would tend to contract because of its infinite amount of mass. It's the density that is important, not the total amount of mass.

I'm not a physicist but if the universe has the topological shape of a surface of a sphere or of an ellipsoid (what speaks against this possibility?) and if there happens to be a big bang on one spot and the expansion is fast enough so it does not collapse, the gravitational force should accelerate the expansion "on the other side of the sphere", doesn't it?

lol.
That sounds weird. And I think it wouldn't work. Gravity works by curving space, so it won't work through uh... non-space. And you gravity doesn't "pull space" anyway.

The expansion of the universe has other reasons, I think it has something to do with dark matter or dark energy...

Guys... Fighting on the internet is like running the special olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded!

I love you, lets make out sometime.

that's evolution. There has to be some kind of evolution in first place. Selection doesn't work with amino acids and without reproduction cycle.


space-time is allowed to propagate faster than light, thus it is indeed possible to travel faster than light. All you have to do is contract space before you and expand it behind you. In this bubble you can travel faster than light (*) as proven by Alcubierre and Van den Broeck.

(*) It might sound a bit misleading. In fact, you are not traveling faster than light. If light flew in the same bubble as you, it would overtake you. It's just faster than light without curving the space.
The whole point was just about a species being able to colonize galaxies. It's not impossible if the universe is infinite.

Another thing speaking against an infinite universe is entropy. If it was infinite there must be an infinite amount of information in the universe. I don't think that there's a theory validating this (I don't know much about it, to be honest).

Einstein has never measured curved space. In fact, I don't think it was possible at that time. He just predicts it in the GR. This prediction was then verified 1919 as far as I know.

hm... i am not very knowledgable in this area but for me it is easier to imagine an infinite universe than imagine a finite one. how would the boundary of a finite universe look like? what is behind it? nothingness? wouldn't this nothingness belong to the universe too?

That actually doesn't have to be a problem at all, as the more we've come to learn from what we think of 'empty space', the more we've found out it's actually not truly empty at all.

Quantum effects constantly produce particles and antiparticles "out of nothing," only to have them disappear few moments later. And space itself can either be almost flat or curved, depending on the amount of matter it contains.

I think whenever entropy seems like a problem, it's probably solved by how things work on a (multi-dimensional) quantum level anyway.



I don't believe in invisible walls either, but from the perspective of logic there doesn't have to be a brick wall at the end that would end our 3-dimensional experience of our universe.

If time and space just curves around into a sphere, we wouldn't even notice that we're in a limited space as if we're swimming in a gigantic fish bowl.

I don't think anything 'outside' of such a curved space would be definable, even though we're used to the concept of things 'inside' and 'outside' of something.

Why does there have to be anything 'outside' of a potential limited universe? From a perspective of logic, there's no reason to as far as I can tell.

Then again, if something expands, it will need theoretical room to do so. Hence at some point there must be a solution to our dimensional space in whatever bigger existential frame everything might float.

That's true, there is the uncertainty principle which allows creation of particles within a specific time limit. I'm not sure how this is connected to entropy, though. Wait some more years, then I have my final degree and I can tell you .

From what I read science doesn't think of entropy as a clock that simply runs out (of energy) and makes everything come to a full and eternal stop though.

"It is impossible to conceive a limit to the extent of matter in the universe; and therefore science points rather to an endless progress, through an endless space, of action involving the transformation of potential energy into palpable motion and hence into heat, than to a single finite mechanism, running down like a clock, and stopping for ever."

The way I see it with layman's eyes, there's likely to be some kind of implosion kind of reversal at some point in time and so everything can start from point zero again. Remember how there has got to have been a state before when our universe started to expand and 'waste' energy. In fact, that state quite likely must have been some kind of equilibrium as well that somehow got kick-started into where we are now.

Since we're at it and this topic has turned into a mixture of obscure discussion about space, time, religion and nauqoj I'd really like to know if anyone of you believes in the hollow earth hypothesis?

Lol, that's actually as laughable as the flat earth theory and quite impossible for sure. It hasn't been taken seriously by science since like what.. the 17th century or something?

That is actually some very inspiring stuff Joey. Could make a very interesting story and setting for a game

There is already a game with this theme - can't find it in my collection of games, but here is a link:

http://www.spieleradar.de/PC/spieledetails/agharta-the-hollow-earth/6_1638.html