1st or 3rd Person?

I´m still programming on my Shooter with the Name "White Storm". But i stuck in a gameplay problem..

What is better? 1st Person or 3rd Person?
The Game itself is not a Horrorgame. It´s based on Sci-Fi Action in WW2.


I really need your opinions here, to start coding the player controls.

Ich denke 1st Person sind eher für Rasante Shooter am besten geeignet, wo nicht viel mit der Umgebung interagiert werden muss (wie beispielsweise Hinter kisten umher schleichen oder was auch immer).
3rd Person sehe ich da schon eher mit dem Taktischen Aspekt.
Hier kannst du dem Spieler verschiedene möglichkeiten geben, mit der Spielewelt zu interagieren.
Das geht natürlich auch in einem 1st Person Shooter, aber den besten überblick hat man halt mit der 3rd Person.

Nehmen wir einfach mal Splinter Cell / Metal Gear Solid und Kumpanen als beispiel.
Alle Spiele sind auf die 3rd Person ausgelegt, weil der Spieler nicht einfach rum laufen und wild um sich schiessen , sondern eher Taktisch klug vor gehen muss, um Gegner XYZ auszuschalten.

Nun mache ich einfach mal die gegenprobe... Kannst du dir ein UT2009 / Counter-Strike / Halo usw als 3rd Person vorstellen?
Also ich nicht. Bei den SPielen will ich einfach nur Ballern und nicht irgendwie 3000 Stunden irgend ne Taktik überlegen.

Also es kommt ganz darauf an was du wie in deinem Spiel umsetzen willst.
Ich würde an deiner stelle einfach mal 2 einfache Kameras Programmieren und dann siehst du später welche einfach besser passt.

Vielleicht sind die Beispiele nicht die besten, aber ich hoffe dir klar gemacht zu haben wie ich beispielsweise die beiden Perspektiven einsetzen würde.


gruß Sebastian

take a look at this thread that i started: http://www.opserver.de/ubb7/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=266106&page=all you'll see that it isnt about which is better, its about what fits your game and the experience you are aiming for

my game is a game about time traveling, dimension-paradoxes and time-paradoxes. Nazi-Zombies, Russian mutants, Maschine-Enemies and futuristic weapons. All in the time from 1944-1945.

I think i´ll do ego-gameplay and some 3rd person things... just need some advices on how to do it.. XD

Sounds like Wolfenstein with any Sci-Fi game(dead space as an example)

i do´n´t think that a character in wolfenstein wears a nanotec suite ^^

http://daten.rmxpworld.de/White%20Storm/Grafiken/ADAM_Links.bmphttp://daten.rmxpworld.de/White%20Storm/Grafiken/ADAM_Front.bmp


Hmm. ok.. a advise arrived via PM... Hiding behind Walls = Zoomout to 3rd person..

any other?

Zooming out can beak the mood...
I really would keep it one view.
But if you really want to switch, well then:
Cover system, like in Vegas2, or melee kills, all in third person, and regular shooting in first person.

The setting reminds me on Timeshift.
The Main Character also wears a Nanosuit.
Timeshift was 1st Person and it fits good for the setting, so if your game is similar to Timeshift i would prefer 1st Person.

i never played timeshift.. but heard much about it.. seems like i need to buy it sometimes ^^

ok.. i will start with a first person movement.. then i look if 3rd person fits in different parts..

Maybe some levels should be 1st person and the others should be 3rd person. That would be interesting, or maybe you should let the player choose.

that would break the game..

I dont like the idea of having the levels in different views...
It breaks the mood. Choose one view and stay with it is what I would say.

hmm.. this 3rd person meeles are interesting..
Of you kill a person with a knife, the view can change to 3rd person for this sequence..

you need to read the reviews for games that do this..

Yes, see Turok (the last part). Not really good rewieved as far as I know...

My humble opinion:
If you want different cameras: let the player choose.
But also be aware of the consequence that the option of choosing the perspective has:
- a 3rd person perspective requires good animations on characters
- a 3rd person perspective in small indoor environments requires a good collision detection between camera and obstacles
- with a 3rd person cam a player might be able to see stuff that you can't see from 1st person cam
(I guess there are more)

I'm thinking about making an fps. I like the idea of pre-rendered animations or real-time third person cinemas leading to first person play at the start of each level. That way you set the stage better. The first person lacks that by itself-- you'er there looking through the eys of the player from start.

I tend to like first person view-- more immersive. For mutliplayer though, you have to select one or the other-- or be able to force a view type as the host. Mechwarrior Vengeance was like that. Third person can give an advantage to some players since of course a third person allows a wider view.

When done properly, a combination is good:
Jedi Outcast, Unreal Championship 2, or Riddick.

What's common? First person when aiming is top priority; third person when navigation is priority.

But yeah, if you want Half-Life 2 immersion and you're not climbing all over the place, first person only.

And in some types of games 3rd person can be just plain unfair in multiplayer (see around corners without having to expose yourself -- though since everyone can do this it might just be deemed a part of the gameplay).

First person is just plain easier to make

Jibb

EDIT: Forgot the Halo games (3rd person vehicles).

True. I would vote for a first person view, Espér.

easier.. i think that stands on the gametype..

Coding a DooM ( SNES version ) or Wolfenstein 3D ( SNES too ), is really easy
Coding a real 3D 1st Person shooter, with the Ability of a Nanosuite and human movings ( watching around corners, sidesteps, handanimating for each weapon ) is really difficulty..

But i will try my luck in it.. thanks for your opinions ^^

Well, at last in a fps you have to only animate the hands, not the whole body. In a 3ps, you have to use anm_add, so bones are required, and you have to have much more animations, and if it shall look REALLY good you even need IK.... it really IS easier to code a fps.

agreed but am so far in my 3ps that i have no need to do fps, so for me right now, fps seems harder only because i have so much reusable 3ps codes

Yes, thats right...^^
But he doesnt have so much code yet, so I guess its easier for him...
Well, at last in a fps you have to only animate the hands, not the whole body. In a 3ps, you have to use anm_add, so bones are required, and you have to have much more animations, and if it shall look REALLY good you even need IK.... it really IS easier to code a fps.

Uhm.. how to shopw a character in a mirror.. only animated hands??? looks stupid when moving and looking in a mirror ^^
So i need to animate a bit more than just the hands..

Or do you have other ideas how to do it?

the hands are only hud entities, they arent visible in the level, i make them reall entites though, so they receive lighting, but in most fps games, there is an invisble actor filling the role of the plaeyer, this character is hidden to the player but its what everyone else would see, also.. ummm, if you look around, i'm pretty sure you wont find many 'current' FPSs that give you the ability to look in a mirror, its unnecessary in most cases.. i dont know why you need it however..

Turok
the darkness
ut3 has mirroring water
Résistance on Psp has mirrors
prey

it's more realistic with mirrors. For me, it's pure needing. The Bridge between dimensions is planned As Mirror Labyrinth. with crystals, Glas and Water.

resistance on psp is a 3ps? i think so.. as i said, its easy to do but a but unecessary, i wont run from a game because i cant see my digital reflection in a mirror but as i said, easy, what i would do:

create a fully animated player first, then attach the cam to his head or chest, then walla, first person view with the ability to look in mirrors, there are more advanced ways such as creating a player model that is only visible on other cameras and such but once again, you'll hardly need this in a single player title, the titles listed above mostly have multiplayer so its expected thet there is a character model, for indie developers, dont waste time on eye candy effects unless CRUCIAL to your game type... this effect could be added ages from now

No more difficult than a 3PS with all the same. The hands might need nicer animations, but that's not about difficulty, that's about a little extra work. If there's any possibility of obstacles getting in the way of the camera in your 3PS (unless you're on a flat plane or in the middle of space, there will be) you have to write camera code that reacts smoothly -- find a balance between not going through obstacles, and not snapping the camera to new positions.

If you have a mirror system, it's not much extra work to place the 3PS equivalent of your model there for the mirror views, and you still only have to worry about the FPS camera.

When it comes to human motion, my first thoughts are to attach the camera to a vertex in an animated model, instead of just fixing it in one spot relative to the player's origin and trying to program all the movements.

Jibb

Very right, Jibb, that way you get a very smooth camera movement...depending on the player models animation, of course.
It also makes stuff like peeking round corners much easier as u only have to animate the player, and it creates the nice effect of being able to see the players body when looking down, what really rises the immersion.

I think it just the same. Well at least in my case.
I code FPS the same as 3PS except that in FPS I put the camera in the player's head/between eyes. That way, mirror fx will work plus you can see the player body part, and can change from 1st to 3rd person view esaily(although I dont like that option).

True, but not as simple as the body model + hands model solution.
And u have to have a very high poly model for the whole body. Also, u have to use ANM_ADD, what makes animation blending very difficult.

Modeling in high poly is much easier than modeling in low poly..

But i will try to reduce my polycount after finishing the model ( 1 leg has nearly 2k polys atm ).

This is the leg (will so higher details as skin/normal/spectral mapping):


Now i managed this position flip in MED, by toggling the tool properties of, modeling is much easier ^^

lol, what is spectral mapping?

He means specular mapping I guess.
Looks nice.

good idea.

True... I still dont get it in how using ent_blend, and high poly model is needed if you're planning to use it in FPS mode.

The problem with ent_blend and ANM_ADD is that you cant blend single bones as far as I know.
I had the idea of doing it like this:
Dont use ANM_ADD at all, but have a second, invisible model with the same bones and orientation as the player model.
You animate the player models lower half, using ent_blend and stuff, and constantly reset the upper bones.
At the same time, animate the invisible model, read out the bone angles and use ent_bonerotate to kinda "animate" the players arms by hand, using the outread angles of the invisible model.
Dunno if this is clear explained tough.^^

ok..
the plan stands...


1.)
but i´ve some consides of the look of the gameplay.

My game is settlet in 1944, with a great SciFi part and time paradoxes. but it´s still 1944. Hitler, Nazis, SS and Hookcrosses...

I know the amount of all these things from wolfenstein.. But how far can i go, without getting people saing: "What a rassist basterd!"


Any opinions?



2.)
This is my first "Promo" Title. A Photomontage with the Title-model ( the letters+the cross are models ).

What do you think of a Titlescreen like that ( ingame animated and real 3D.. not just a Photo ^^ )?
*click on image to enlarge*


The "Hit key" text will ingame be shown in the lower right of the screen.
I also plan to place the maincharacter in the right, facing the city, with idle Animation.

I like it.
And to your problem no.1:
Well, I dont think anybody will call you something like that just because you show these stuff... As long as you dont show it in a positive context. If you make clear "this is the enemy, and he is evil", I dont see why people should complain...
The only reason why Hookcrosses and other Nazi signs are removed from the German Wolfenstein versions is that they are kinda illegal, and as your a german developer, THIS could become a problem... Even if you dont sell it...

explained clearly enough for me, its on my "to try" list

Glad I could help.

be carfull with that picture!!!
you know what it meens...

Well, hes making a WW2 shooter, so I guess there will be even more of this stuff.

But then he needs rights to show this.
And thats not cheep...

to show what?? who has the rights on a swastika? and who is gonna be paid?

you just cant host it in germany i think. but i may be wrong

You could use this one to be on the save side:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krückenkreuz



Otherwise I would honestly ask a lawyer.
A lawsuit would be really expensive and stressful.

uhm.. If i use another sign than a swastika, that´s like i would hush up my History.

There was hitler
There were the SS
There was the swastika as NS Symbolic.

That are facts.. I hate it to not show them in historic based games. That´s like making "James ryan" without germans.. D-Day without germany of 1945...

If making a game, based on history.. Then be correct.

yea.. it'd also be like, need for speed without a toyota, grand turismo without a porshe, what i mean is, they pay for using those elements, you mau have to do that if you choose to be perfectly accurate, ps, i know nothing of that sign or what it means.. based my reply on what i thought in terms of using copyrighted/restrictive elements...

probably wont look on this thread again so feel free not to reply to this ^^

It has nothing to do with copyright.
It has nothing to do with historical correctness.
It has nothing to do with personal feelings.

Computer games are not authorized as culture / art here in germany.
Therefore it´s illegal to use "symbols of unconstitutional organisations".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a

Conclusion: If it´s really important for you, then ask a lawyer.
Nobody can (and should) give you an advise here.

Absolutely right. In fact, it is not allowed in Germany to use this sign. You dont have to call a laywer to know that.