A7 next gen workflow :

Posted By: broozar

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/17/07 18:02

look around, there are so many engines available, choose the one that suits you most. but beefing is bad style.

Posted By: Doug

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/17/07 18:03

Quote:

I took a look at their little demo of a big brutish guy standing in a black expanse. He roared (no sound), and moved his head around, etc. But it all looked VERY cool.
...
My point is this: If two or three guys can create the Project Offset engine in a couple years, *in their spare time*, why the hell can't a full-time company do just as well?

Take a look at the ATI and nVidia demos done for their card releases. Most of them are as good (or better) than the Offset Engine demo.

The Offset Engine demo you saw done by 3 guys was just that, a demo. There is a huge difference between a graphic demo and a full engine.

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/17/07 18:36

Hm, it was not really just that, a demo. I remember some fine screenshots of editors, node based shader editors and much more.

I dont want to say that you are totally wrong. Sure it was not a completed engine but it must have been more than only a NVidia demo. Otherwise they could not sell it to those publishers.

At the end, I agree with Broozar. There are fine and fast growing alternatives at the moment. The engine landscape is very exciting right now.

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/17/07 20:14

Quote:

There are fine and fast growing alternatives at the moment. The engine landscape is very exciting right now.

And for that reason, volatile. How many new engines come on the scene, garner great support, and then become vaporware? How many engines have a robust enough business model to actually survive the 1 to 2 year development timeline of most games today? How many engines have all the features that 3DGS or Torque have in terms of networking, particles, GUI, graphics, sound, etc?

I agree that there are several solutions out there and several are free and better than 3DGS in one way or another.

But you have to admit that the one thing 3DGS (or to a lesser extent Torque) has that others don't is longevity. 3DGS has been around for a decade and there is no indication that it will not be around for another decade. You can't say the same about the great majority of the new engines that pop up each month.

The other thing it has is completeness... you can in fact make any game you want. Most of the engines that pop up on the "tools" forum are nothing more than a great new graphics rendered...they are in fact like cheerleaders... real pretty and you'd love to "hit that" but when you do you find out that that is all they are and you are left empty.

So yes, the engine landscape is very exciting IF you aren't planning on making a game.

If you are, you better hitch your horse to a solution that has the greatest chance of seeing your project through. 3DGS is not the only one that falls in this category, but there are damn few out there in the 1000 buck range that do.

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/17/07 20:23

Quote:

...So, what's my point? My point is this: If two or three guys can create the Project Offset engine in a couple years, *in their spare time*, why the hell can't a full-time company do just as well? o_O

Because what most people don't understand is that building and ENGINE and building a BUSINESS are two radically different things.

If Conitec wanted to create teh PO engine, do you really doubt that they technically couldn't do it? But here is what's going to happen: support for the current version of A7 will drop... development and bug fixes for the old version will halt... people will have nothing to do with Conitec until they come up with their new engine in 2 years (for example)...and when they DO come out with the new engine, they have to start all over again because it will have NOTHING to do with the company that we bought into.

My point is that it is easier to start from scratch when you don't have tens of thousands of people counting on you. If PO fails, no biggie, no harm done. If PO takes 3 more years, so be it, good for them. And furthermore AFAIK they are building an engine not a full Authorware solution.

So two or three people can create an engine, no argument there... but can those same two or three people turn it into a business that will guarantee the engines future development? THAT remains to be seen.

Quote:

That they would probably make the engine free or maybe some minor licencing fee or something..."
[...]
An engine is only priced "in the realm of crazy-talk" because nobody has had the kahonae's to tell a publisher "Naaa. We don't want your $2 million. We're doing this for fun, and want everyone to have access to the joy of making kick-ass looking games."

They did it for the same reason that I won't offer my MMOG code for free. I bet you these "2 million dollar guys" spent a lot of time and sweat equity building their engine. And then after all that, they should just give it away or pass up the offer to bank on what they worked on? Their only mistake is not realizing this earlier or trying to garner support for their engine by playing the "we're one of you!" card when they had no intention of doing do.

I don't agre that it's an "us against them" arguement. I think it's a "I've worked hard and I should get paid for it" and if the publishers are willing to dish out 2 mill for it then great!

Paul, I think your opinion would be a lot more valid when you've been made the offer and pass it up. Until then, you are on the moral high ground simply because you've never been on the ground these others have been!

Posted By: Frederick_Lim

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 00:35

Is it off-topic? The topic is WORKFLOW not ENGINE

I have try GameEdit, as it is not fully support lite-C, so is GameEdit offer better workflow?

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 00:54

No it's not Frederick. People are crying for 3DGS to have the workflow found in higher priced engines and I'm making the point that "you get the (workflow) you pay for".

Posted By: Doug

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 03:08

Quote:

Hm, it was not really just that, a demo. I remember some fine screenshots of editors, node based shader editors and much more.

I don't recall screen shots of the editors coming out until much later. And, even then, they were just prototypes on what they wanted to do (not something shipping).

Quote:

Sure it was not a completed engine but it must have been more than only a NVidia demo. Otherwise they could not sell it to those publishers.

Why not? They built huge hype about a true "Next Gen" engine. Everybody in the industry knew the name although, at the time, nobody had seen any actual working code. The name "Project Offset" alone is probably worth millions.

I'm not saying it was "just" a tech-demo. And I know from sources that they are now licensing the engine to other developers. But its been two years since the first video hit the web, plenty of time to turn a demo into a production level project.

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 07:17

This makes much sense. Thank you for the insides, Doug.

To switch back to the topic:
I checked lots of engines and I often realize workflow-issues with importing, editing and so on. Gamestudio is quite fine has an established base of exporters and plugins. It just needs a real-time editor and working lightmapper.

I think that we all agree that we cannot expect high level optimizations to get optimal fill-rates at graphic cards and something like that. We are aware that we get what we pay for. So I agree with Fastlane.

But nevertheless there is something happening in the market. There already are some professional made games with Ogre as an example. The gap between AAA and indie market seems to become bigger and bigger. Some indie engines like Unity3d, Unigine, C4 and TGEA try to catch up. GarageGames fused with Instant Action, is funding games now and becomes a publisher. A lot of indie-publishers come up and some of them even deliver AAA quality, like Gamecock Media:
http://www.gamecockmedia.com/
The quality of games comes closer and closer to movie productions (and costs the same amount of money).

The games business became the most hardest business at all.

But the graphical possibilites are amazing. Modern techniques allow so much things that even artists can and want to have much more fun viewing their contents in real-time and not only in rendered scenes. This is a new bunch of potentional customers for Conitec - not only programmers - there are millions of hobby and pro artists out there scanning the engine market regularly, waiting for an easy tool to watch and present their contents.

Posted By: sueds

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 07:22

there is a video. this isn't an official one ... Maybe it was for potential developpers ... but anyway ...

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/project+offset+/video/x2nr2f_project-offset-trailer_news

I hope you enjoy it !

Posted By: Frederick_Lim

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 12:20

Quote:

This is a new bunch of potentional customers for Conitec - not only programmers - there are millions of hobby and pro artists out there scanning the engine market regularly, waiting for an easy tool to watch and present their contents.

I think Conitec understood that. Gamestudio is not only for programmer, it has a complete click-together template system. Along with the FBX import, artists is easy to make their content in action. The problem is, how easy the tools for manipulate the assets...for instance, in WED, you cannot see multi-texture terrain or model with shader in real-time

Posted By: William

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 20:34

With the new planned FBX developments, there will be a big difference for many artists. For example, you will build your entire scene in your FBX supporting program, export the models from it, and use Conitecs FBX importer to get it and place them all in WED. You really wouldn't need WED past assigning actions and the such.

Ventilators lightmapping tool also works fine, but once this FBX importer is in, and the new lightmapping capabilities of WED are in, you might not need to do your lightmapping in 3ds max and the such. This would save some time as using Ventilators plugin requires a bit of thought in properly setting up your files.

And I just have to agree with Fastlane on his last couple comments. I've started my project many years ago, and long behold, 3dgs still exists, it's still getting updates, and it has indeed implemented many things I needed and now use. Examples of this would be per-poly collision, shaders, multiple multiplayer improvments, ABT, ect. All of this did not exist when I naively started my project. Can you really say that the majority of the engines starting now will fix everything that you need through many years? All the power to the people creating these engines, I think it's great, but sometimes it's best to stick with proven.

Posted By: TheExpert

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/18/07 22:07

"I've started my project many years ago, and long behold"

That's the point

Like every people you'll grow up

I hope at least !!

Work, real life, girls ... what you want will take you up from "virtual" if it's not part of your job , or if your'ne not in a team or make solid things.

you'll have less and less time to put in game making even if it's remain a passion. All you want it's the tools for today Next Gen things and some new coming out.
Tools as easy as Cryteck Sandbox or others : do all easily, import directly models, just code AI,behaviour.

Like some people can't wait five more years for Conitec to bring up the engine,
even if already here, always here ... there are rivals and serious ones like
Torque (in some ways), Unity, TV3D ,ogre3D ...already Next Gen ready.

I used 3DGS from 4 years (or 5??), things change quickly in life within 5 years, (i hope for you all at least), the more it goes, the less you waste
time waiting stupidly

(i hope , life exists to live it the more you can in bad and good)

a link :
page comment

were you can read that :
Well if you are like alot of us(well those old enough) you have a job, and that job takes 70% of you r time, then if you like even fewer of us, that writes programs all day long for a living, then the last thing you want to do is write a engine, I am so sick of people messaging me and saying, hey I am writing my own mmorpg engine, wanna help? Heck no! Why would I waste my time? So by the time i finish it, the graphics will be out of date? Or someone else will come along and make one exactly like it faster? Making a good game does not require you having to write the engine also, but it does require some coding. I think makers are the greatest. makes it easy for those of us that program so much we get sick of it. I write at least 2000 lines a code a day at work. The last thing I wanna do is deal with a dang engine for a game. Just my opinion though. I give props to anyone writing their own engine. *poke *poke

Yes enought waiting , if some engine in indie domain is ready ,right price for lonewolves to use it, entirely artist workflow , some of us will pick it up and let down 3DGS , even if it prooven , always present
(but not Next Gen ready , or show me a demo with the next gen tools

.

I doubt FBX to be the revolution that will solve 3DGS problems and
make it totally shaders/lights/shadows/tools/interfaces integrated and today
generation instead of having lot of old things in it.

People that can wait some years can wait for A8, me no

3DGS would need to be entirely rewritten, team is too small sadly, updates are steel far from fast

like promised.
Shader editor for more than one year announced ..., light and shaders integrated ?? , real terrain editor like competitors engines (not some bad MED
interface mesh) ... etc .. etc ..

Can't wait stupidly any more

, just use A6.60 for simple good 3D , not shader , not next gen , just simple 3D and it does the job, not incredibly but do it.

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 03:16

Quote:

Yes enought waiting , if some engine in indie domain is ready ,right price for lonewolves to use it, entirely artist workflow , some of us will pick it up and let down 3DGS

I agree with that... IF all I wanted out of 3DGS was to make art!

But here's my problems with all your comments TheExpert: you aren't a game maker! By your own admission you are exclusively an artist and I've never seen anything to the contrary from you. So all your opinions AGAINST 3DGS (which comprise 90% of your forum participation BTW) should be seen as coming from somebody that is purely interested in the Art Pipeline/Workflow and not in making games.

I'm not saying that the art workflow is not important nor am I argueing that 3DGS is even close to the best, but when you say that 3DGS is not ready or that you are sick of waiting, it seems to me that you have no perspective on the countless other factors that must be weighed in making a game. There are many other workflows including the scripting, the level design, and in a loose sense, the moneyflow, that all have to be weighed when judging an engine's usefulness for your project. So it makes sense that you would pick the flashiest, newest engine that is out there because your timelines are short, on the order of how long it takes to make a model. But making a game requires a lot more than flash and catchy buzzwords like "next gen"... it's requires stability in both engine and company, a fact that you seem to overlook or outright dismiss!

So to everyone that reads your comments about 3DGS's workflow as compared to other engines: take them with a grain of salt. They come from someone that AFAIK isn't interested in making games, but rather is content to merely test all the game engines out there not to make games, but to make models... and dog 3DGS along the way!

Posted By: Tiles

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 07:20

I wish i would have realtime engine preview in the WED. With shaders. Oh, wait, this is evil next gen Workflow

Posted By: William

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 08:01

Quote:

I used 3DGS from 4 years (or 5??), things change quickly in life within 5 years, (i hope for you all at least), the more it goes, the less you waste
time waiting stupidly (i hope , life exists to live it the more you can in bad and good)

I wouldn't consider game development a waste of time if it's something you enjoy, even if you can only work on it weekends or less. The basic truth is, anything you start can be finished given the right amount of time and work. If you have no time, then do something really small.

Luckily, I'm afforded the luxury of being able to work full time on my project. And I will see it through. This is what I meant by a proven engine, if your in for the long haul, you will need one. You will also need the engine staff to be committed to finding bugs and communicative. 3dgs fulfills this. I don't really think a thread like this is constructive anyways, judging by the beta's and forecast, I think JCL has a pretty good idea of what 3dgs needs.

Posted By: yung

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 08:11

Alright, after reading at great length;this topic, I have to share some of my views, albiet from a different POV.

Q: Why do people use Blender?
A: Becuase its one Integrated Development Env.

Q: Why Do people use 3dgs?
A: (In my opinion) its because even though its not one complete IDE, for the results that can be achieved,it uses a much more straight forward approach than other systems/languages; ie: Scripting.

I must admit dissapointment after downloading the new demo of Lite-C, because my expectaions for it where infact much higher, or maybe just misguided. I expected that by now we would have everything so common to game development needs in this day and age, such as fully integrated terrain creation/manipulation tools, next-gen built in shader library and editor(not just a set of fx scripts), etc, etc ad infinum.

The point I'm trying to make (and its a good one) is that in the past (at least 4-5 years), I've watched this entire community hunt for 3rd party or user-made development tools just trying to piece together what they need to produce what is already standard in terms of today's games.

So Whats the point? where is the solution?
I know the real answer is in scrapping both MED & WED, and moving all such
development to the engine itself(realtime/runtime env.), and creating everything there. Dont agree?, I know better. I mean honestly, why does everyone need to go hunt for John_Doe's TerrainMaker, just so they can export a relief map that inturn has to be imported, textured, perhaps otherwise modified, etc.(thats alot of work) only to then end up with guess what, a PIECE OF GROUND. If conitec would just realize this and follow the roadmap, we could have every single possible need met in a very short amount of time(like inside of 6 months). They already give us a level compiler, so why not make level editing in realtime (blocks), and as far as static shadow-mapping, just create a light representing entity like a light-bulb, move it to where you want, set its properties through an iterface(light range,color) then click a button, and the shadowmaps are updated and the level refreshed. The same goes for models, if they can make a MED, they can build it into the runtime engine. And the solution to overloading the engine with editor interfaces, is have the designer's engine as one application, and the actual game engine a second application, bare-bones that can read/load all the designed data.

I have my self, using nothing but C-script created many tools that try to bring some sort of realtime editing to gamestudio, for instance scrapping the bones system for a real-time hierarchy entity system, including its own keyframer, realtime cutscene tools(that uses the same keyframer), etc.

Gamestudio will never reach its full potential until both its users and creators address the need to meet all the shortcomings with a simple,effective, all-in-one solution.
----------------------------------------------------
PS: I didnt want to ramble into a HUGE post, but I have come up with a true solution, and will be presenting much data about my theories on my new website in the weeks to come,so stay tuned.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 15:54

Quote:

I know the real answer is in scrapping both MED & WED, and moving all such
development to the engine itself(realtime/runtime env.)

As long as it's able to handle ALL kinds of games no matter how crazy, then it would be fine with me.

As for MED I don't think we really need it other than to import models and perhaps add a skin mapping.
If you want to make more complicated models, you should probably think about learning Blender and so on anyways. Still, it's a good thing that we have MED imho which provides the most basic thing you need. One of the main reasons why I choose for 3dgs back in the day was because it had (and has) all these editors, I'd hate to see them go away. The realtime creation has it's disadvantages too..

Cheers

Posted By: TheExpert

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 17:06

@fastlane69 :
but when you say that 3DGS is not ready or that you are sick of waiting

I don't want to use files.fx for shaders not compatibles , or other or code just ot try to apply a normal map and use some dynamic lights in the level,
lightmaps and soft shadows, projection maps.

"All that shoudl be done in some clicks "

That's all

And yes i'm an engine collector, my game i would like to do a shoot em up
with 3D models: normal map shaders and specular on them ,
dynamic lights , refraction effects, water shader all that by clicks and choosing shaders on a panel list

Just to make the shoot game looking today and great

With 3DGS not possible Next Gen easily or it's a head break t ofind the good
action files, resolve dynamic lights, water ???
Unity supported formats and automatic conversions

physics and easy ragdoll

terrain features

All that features integrated into the editor and that's only ones, when
3DGS to do same thing ?

I think you are too young to understand what i'm saying about waisting time

In my case i prefer to do nothing if im' not sure to go fast , easy with all tools !
Don't want to loose time trying resolve things you can't do or that can't be done !

Well enought talk for my part.
I hope it can be somewhat constructive and push up the great 3D engine that
is 3DGS indeed

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 17:30

Quote:

I think you are too young to understand what i'm saying about waisting time

LOL No, I'm pretty sure THAT'S not the problem. No, I'm old enough to now that if I sit around waiting for the world to make my life easy...

Quote:

Inmy case i prefer to do nothing if im' not sure to go fast , easy with all tools !

...then I'll be waiting forever! If you are looking for a single engine that will have the perfect workflow so that you can acheive the mythical "make game" button, then you're wait will be a long one. Bottom line is that you don't want to make a game for if you did, you would not be LOOKING for the FASTEST solution, you would be USING the BEST solution for your project.

I do understand what you are saying: nobody wants to waste time clicking 5 times when they can click once. And if your passion isn't making games, then yeah, you can wait till the end of the world waiting for the "make game" button to appear on some game engine. Honestly I get you.

But here is what I hope I can make you understand: if you TRULY want to make a game (and not collect engines forever), then there will be times in every engine when you'll have to click 5 times instead of once. With 3DGS, it may be in the Art Pipeline... with Torque it may be in the C++ pipeline... in Crytek, it will be with the Bank Pipeline.

It's all a balancing game, my friend. Some engines will have better workflow than 3DGS but at higher cost. Other engines will have worse workflow than 3DGS but perhaps limited in the types of games you can do. Remember, 3DGS to game engines is what GURPS is to role-playing games: a blank slate upon which you can build anything. Just like GURPS, you'll have to put more work into it than say using D&D or Shadowrun, but then again you aren't restricted.

There is no sense in asking a Honda Civic to perform like a Lamborghini Diablo if the Civic can get you to the same destination... just slower and cheaper!

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 17:38

Quote:

As long as it's able to handle ALL kinds of games no matter how crazy, then it would be fine with me.

This is why MED and WED have to remain: because not only should it be able to handle all types of games, but also all types of game making abilities.

I'm not an artist so when I started making games, I used MED to make simple balls and houses and the like. They weren't good and it was a pain in the ass, but I did it, I learned, and I advanced; It was enough to give my vision shape, to show it to collegues and friends, and kept me going. If I had to use some other program where I had to figure out how to export and how to import and all that, it would have been 10 times worse than it was.

That is why MED and WED should remain in the system, as a way for people that aren't artists or level designers to have tools that are guaranteed to work and integrate into the engine. Take them away and you are SEVERELY hindering the workflow of newbies (and oldies who are used to the system). Besides, by the time you realize MED is outdated, your skills have likely progressed to the point where you can use Blender and so it all works out!!!

Posted By: TheExpert

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 18:09

I recognize you perfectly right fastlane69

For my part, if i'll never make a game, why not , perhaps better than begin and never finish ??

Don't want to may more for 3DGS , A7 that is not as complete NExt Gen as Unity Engine
Unity to have all features need to pay very big and Editors for PC version not here at the moment

, buyt it's the engine i like ,
and very easy language and engine code to use, lot of formats supported :
like Blender with animations directly,
more than 40 shaders, water,glow ,refraction,normal maps ,full screen effects ...

But you have said the right points fastlane69 even in the end when comparing with cars

But perhaps you forgot some points :

-The Ferrari will attract all people eyes

and the old civic , not a lot will look at.
(i mean next gen graphics)

And tunning your old Civic , even more fast etc ... won't reach how
comfortably/easy/fast you can go with Ferrari
( i mean editor/workflow/engine).

The joy is not the same using a ready engine ,and another lacking today things/workflow.
(when lightmaps mixed with shaders ,lights , and shadows automatically?)

Well i stop , like you said, i should do some models instead of typing it should be less time wasting

Posted By: Orange Brat

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 10/19/07 19:19

WED has worked fine for me for 8 years. I've watched it grow, and using the new concave on feature, you can build anything you want with it and everything will actually WORK and LOOK RIGHT without any import/export from 3rd party BS that can occur. It doesn't have all the modeler friendly tools, but an experienced user like myself can work around this and create nice curvy detailed levels when we're not burned out.

Would I like to have some modeler friendly stuff in there (MED type stuff)? Sure, and if there's not a The Future request then there should be, but I can live with what we have regardless.

@Conitec, just don't scrap it. If people want to use a modeler, they can use Wings, Blender, or whatever other packages have FBX export. It's just a matter of getting those exporters to export something that looks like it should once in engine.

Quote:

Feature wise, I think that OGRE is on the same line or ahead 3dgs. However, the tools are somewhat missing.

OGRE is a rendering engine, not a game engine. There is a game engine that uses it that can be found if you search their site, but it's 3rd party.

Posted By: yung

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/06/07 12:00

@ Conitec \ OrangeBrat:
No offense intended, when I said "scrapping WED/MED", I meant as the solution to an integrated all-in-one game-creation tool.

I think someone needs to focus development efforts toward tools that are executed at runtime using the A5/6/7 engine, like small plugin GUI's that serve a specific game-design purpose. For instance, a radar-hud "MAKER", where the tool has a large possible range of styles, and totally unique things can be made from the basic set of elements. Some more examples include:

Physics Creator
Menu Creator
Terrain Creator
Sky Creator
LenseFlare Maker

CutScene Creator (RealTime-ScriptDriven cutscenes)

These things I myself think would greatly increase the workflow capabilties of GameStudio. Feedback on this concept is encouraged.

Posted By: Michael_Schwarz

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/06/07 16:07

I smell TUSC

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/06/07 17:15

There is already "gameedit" which allows for a lot of realtime level development. It's pretty close to being released offcially from what I can see.

There is work on a menu editor. I don't know what it's state of development is but it's in the works by a forum member

As far as your other suggestions, a physics, sky, and lensflare creator make no sense. Physics is a purely programming application ad sky and lensflare are just textures.

I have no idea what a cutscene creator would look like... maybe like MS moviemaker? But that would only be useful if you wanted to make movies with 3DGS and if you are making games, I just don't see a good implementation of this.

So as you can see, most of what you want is already in the works!

Posted By: HeelX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/06/07 17:47

Quote:

I have no idea what a cutscene creator would look like... maybe like MS moviemaker? But that would only be useful if you wanted to make movies with 3DGS and if you are making games, I just don't see a good implementation of this.

You take a scene and animate it with key frames.. between those, objects get interpolated. E.g. you can set splines where characters walk along, you can set animation cycles on key frames, set bone key frames, set certain particle emitters on that.. like a timeline. Just ideas..

Its much work, its not senseless and its doable. It just requires provided materials, a requirements specification (we speak in terms of software engineering and not about the typical game developer's trial-and-error project approach), research, time and money.

Posted By: fastlane69

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/06/07 23:42

Quote:

You take a scene and animate it with key frames.. between those, objects get interpolated. E.g. you can set splines where characters walk along, you can set animation cycles on key frames, set bone key frames, set certain particle emitters on that.. like a timeline. Just ideas..

I was thinking of the traditional AVI cutscenes but even using in-game elements, I don't see how you could create an application that would make this more efficient.

And trying to make an application that would effectively couple to the multitudes of ways that people make their games sounds counter-productive... you either have to modify your code to the Cutscene creator standard or you "tweak" the Cutscene generator to fit your code.

And after all, the creator you describe sounds just like different settings within the game... setting paths and bones and particles, isn't that what 3DGS is for after all?

Sounds a lot easier to just disable all player control and then just program the cutscene yourself.

Doable? Yeah, but in the same way that TUSC is doable!

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/07/07 08:23

No. If you want to make an intense game with tons of cut-scenes then you have no chance to program them all yourself. A cut-scene editor is a very nice idea.

You never can imagine all the states of coordinates, rotates and animation states in your mind to program them in the background. It is way more convenient if you can change positions, rotation, animation states, sound files, particles and camera with an editor and a few panels.

Posted By: HeelX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/07/07 14:08

The problem is, that cutscenes require lots of data. Personally, I don't want to set them in WED or so.. because its too much unnecessary data binded in a level files. So I would have to load paths, timetables, scripts, ressources etc. during runtime - seperated from the WMP file. Plus, a realtime 3D editor with a preview function would be invaluable to artists.

TUSC failed for several reasons, especially caused by an "open end feature list". A cutscene editor would require indeed a specific interface for the game (in the meaning of accessing the editor and embedding cutscenes), but that could be simplified. All the rest is conventional software engineering with a fixed number of specific features. I don't know why you are kidding

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/07/07 14:29

Yes. I also think that this is doable. I think it just should store the following data in a time-table (for objects like models, sprites, camera and lights):

Following values could be interpolated between key frames:
- position
- scale
- rotation
- light color, intensity

Following values cannot be interpolated but activated:
- animation state
- name of a function / action to start (particle, script)
- material, texture to change

A timed player could start all those later in the game via function / action.

Posted By: yung

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/07/07 19:16

Alright, I must come forth and say that Ive been working to develop these programs I have mentioned, mainly in theory, sometimes in actual code.
As for my solution to tools like cutscene maker etc, I always try to make them as modular and straight forward as possible, and try not to limit the user in any way.I guess the solution was somewhat revolutionary for me at the time;
Write our own file formats. Using the file_str/var commands it can be easily done. For the cutscene maker, not only did I want to be able to interpolate the POS' and ANGLES, but I wanted to give the user the ability to interpolate everything else as well, ARC, ASPECT, TRANSPARENCY, etc.
The only reason I never released these tools is because there is a bug in my interpolation code. Not always, but everyonce in a while, the camera will do the wrong thing. Here is the problem;
Since its KEYFRAMES that are used, my code resolves the direction to travel on a given axis as being the shortest of the two directions to the next keyframe's pos/ang. This works fine if the animator understands that, but in the case where POINT B is farther away in the intended direction than in the opposite direction (think rotation), the object would simply take the shorter direction(go the other way), which is not what was wanted by the animator. Ive tried several different methods, but all have a problem somewhere. For instance, if I dont use ang(); to return wrapped values (-180 to 180) for angles, then Im working with absolute rotational values, and thus the camera/object would do several rotations (spinning) before ending at point b. Its been hard to find the perfect solution. Also, my code is all built on simple arithmetic, and uses functions like:
dist_on_axis = getgaps(sourcevalue, destval);
to always return either 0 or a positive value giving the distance, because you have to manage the fact that the different positions could cross 0 pos/neg threshold at any time.

I am considering releasing some of these tools for further development by myself and others, if anyone is interested in seeing these tools become of real use, let me know. The only real work left to be done on them is to fix the interpolation code so that it always works perfectly.
PS: The other problem with my equation is that it uses distance_per_cycle as speed, and if this distance is not within a certain range, problems can occur; Ive resolved this as good as I know how by manually setting the final position if the distance to travel is larger than the distance remaining.
Also I still need a final smoothing pass where the movement speed is the same over different distanced keyframes within the same animation.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/08/07 07:02

Quote:

No. If you want to make an intense game with tons of cut-scenes then you have no chance to program them all yourself. A cut-scene editor is a very nice idea.

All you really need is a small code that records positions and another code that is able to load those at runtime... Cutscene editors are evil, they make things more complicated than they should be in my opinion even at the expensive of workflow.

You might end up doing things multiple times if you need the same movement in your game too.

Recording positions, coordinates, angles and so on really isn't that much work once you've written the code to record and playback a cutscene. Moving objects in your game shouldn't be hard to program, besides, that's what you're going to be doing anyways... Next thing you might end up wishing is indeed TUSC,

Quote:

You never can imagine all the states of coordinates, rotates and animation states in your mind to program them in the background.

Which is exactly why recording the movement and so on is the best way,

Cheers

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/08/07 08:42

I am quite sure you never worked with a modelling / animation software if you write such a comment. You need more than just recording coordinates. You also have to interpolate between keyframes and sometimes you have to edit some adjustments.

I have no problem when some users like you want to program everything themselves. You can do it. Please show me the results. Maybe some other users want to buy it.

By the way: It is not very prudent if everyone invents the weel again and again (except for learning purposes but not if you want to make a game).
Some other just want to be more productive.

So let us talk about the topic: "next gen workflow".
I am really sure that you missed this topic a bit since "programming everything myself" is far away from being a good workflow

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/08/07 12:06

I did not mean that you should write a cutscene editor with keyframes and all those things. You don't need them when you record actual movements, angles, timing of sounds and so on. I've already programmed such a recorder for making my own cutscenes. I only had to program that once.

Quote:

"programming everything myself" is far away from being a good workflow

Programming everything yourself and recording and playing it back is not a extremely cumbersome method of doing cutscenes in my opinion. You can't usually re-use the movement calculated in cutscene editors or animation software because it was interpolated between keyframes, not made with actual code. When recording it you don't have to worry about doing all that twice...

Quote:

Some other just want to be more productive.

..either that or you're just being lazy.

Being more or less productive doesn't quite apply to my method. It has sped up the process a lot. Sure, I had to write the recorder/playback code, but after only a few days or so I had that finished. It's modular so I can use it in all my 3dgs projects, I'd say that provides me with a very acceptable work-flow.

Quote:

I have no problem when some users like you want to program everything themselves. You can do it. Please show me the results. Maybe some other users want to buy it.

I currently have no intention of selling it, but who knows maybe later...

Cheers

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/08/07 14:07

Quote:

..either that or you're just being lazy.

Fortunatelly this is not the case for me. I finished lots of models, texture packs, custom modelling, software programming plus a job and my company.

So I really just want to save time with a good tool-set like others want to do. It makes not much sense if everybody re-invents a cutscene editor themself.

I am even willing to pay for that. It could be very cool if I can make little real-time demos for my model packs just with a handy tool instead of starting to program it for every scene again.

Just ask yourself: Why every bigger modelling/animation package (even the free blender or some game-engines) come with a keyframe timeline editor? They just could tell their customers: Script it yourself!

Posted By: yung

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/08/07 18:23

@ Friendly Frank: I agree with you completely. I know because several years ago, when I first attempted cutscenes, I thought like PHeMoX, thinking I would just script everything hardcoded. Of course, it wasnt long before I realized that this method was not the answer. Even if you did everything by hand, meaning recording every camera position/angle by hand, every objects angles etc, what you would end up with is massive scripts that would consume too much resources, simply by sheer size.
In light of this debate, Im going to go ahead and release my cutscene tools to the community. It is under-developed atm, but I'll take a day or two to go back through the code and clean it up, and write a new interface for all the features, since I mainly called all the functions from the command line when I was working with it.

PS: I'll post the zip file in User_Contributions thread, so other users will be able to find it, so check there for it.

Posted By: Pappenheimer

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/08/07 18:55

That's very kind!

You mentioned some issues in the code, in a post above, maybe, you want to wipe them out with the help of others in the script forum...?

Posted By: HeelX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/08/07 19:24

OT:

JCL added these days

"External Tools - A set of small tools/plugins for improving certain game design tasks. Planned: vegetation generator; GUI editor; improved terrain texture generator / editor."

to the forecast. Nice!

Posted By: JibbSmart

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/09/07 04:04

Quote:

Even if you did everything by hand, meaning recording every camera position/angle by hand, every objects angles etc, what you would end up with is massive scripts that would consume too much resources, simply by sheer size.

as much as a cutscene editor would be nice, that quote there is fairly useless, really. by writing a few different interpolation functions and handling styles of camera control, it'd be really easy to have really good cutscenes set up with minimal code. just remember to re-use a lot of functions, and don't be as lazy as the makers of KOTOR (1 & 2) with their awful use of stock animations. each cutscene could easily be no more than a few dozen lines (at most, which is really small) if you write some simple functions to make the cutscene coding cleaner, and put them in an include file.

julz

Posted By: yung

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/09/07 07:02

@ JulzMighty:

The way I visualized what Phemox was talking about was refering to hardcoding each cutscene specificly, meaning in functions setting each property individually, like a line by line script execution. Therefore, what your doing lies at the other end of the spectrum, and if you've got your own system for "interpolating" recorded waypoints, then that is exactly the same as keyframes, and:
if A==(recorder + playback) + fileexport(loaded for playback,interpolation))
then you are using keyframes and {A = cutscene_editor.}

Posted By: JibbSmart

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/09/07 12:16

by that logic, SED is a cutscene editor and your tool is superfluous

i have no doubt it's useful, but any programmer writes functions they can use again. it doesn't become an editor because i use functions over and over again. it's just a part of the workflow.

i'm sure many would appreciate your cutscene editor, and good on you for being generous about it. phemox specifically said a what he does is modular, so it can be used over and over. it's just a different way of approaching it. i was simply pointing out that the difficulty of our approach is being exaggerated.

julz

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/09/07 13:01

Julz, as a programmer I understand your position. What I dont get is the following:

Modular function do not help the community if they are not available. So if we agree to implement your idea then it would be best to have a cutscene-template available in the T7 pack.

But if everybody writes an editor like (yung) or a script library like you or Phemox, then it is no workflow at all. It needs much more programming for everybody of us.

Because of that every modern language supports components, re-usable classes or com objects. So it is easy to exchange solutions.

And besides that all modelling and animation packages use a visual interface to create such data and I think for good reasons

I am sure that the approach of yung is a very good one.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/09/07 17:21

Mmmmm, that's probably the point, I think this is a pointless discussion because it seems to be all about the programmer vs. artist perspective here.

I totally second Julz on the things he said about difficulty and trust me, I'm not a very good programmer! The whole point of our approach is that we re-use code that we must have in our projects anyways. It's as customizable as making a game itself. More complicated cutscenes will need extra code anyways.. cut-scene editors or not,

Cheers

Posted By: JibbSmart

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/09/07 22:54

Quote:

So if we agree to implement your idea then it would be best to have a cutscene-template available in the T7 pack.

i'm not making any suggestions of anything being implemented at all.

just like i said before,

Quote:

i was simply pointing out that the difficulty of our approach is being exaggerated.

Quote:

And besides that all modelling and animation packages use a visual interface to create such data and I think for good reasons

that's an absolute necessity for animating a single model, of course (unless you want to program procedural animations -- i'll be working on that in future, but i have loads of ideas to try out now that school's over), but i've often thought that setting up an entire scene would be a lot easier with a code-editing interface. yes, even in a non-game-engine environment, for me it'd be a lot easier to program things. this is especially true for scenes with many characters visible who all need to be doing something at any given moment.

to summarise each of my three last posts (including this one):
yung's ideas and contribution will be useful for many and is quite generous, but the difficulty of the alternative is being exaggerated.

julz

EDIT: i do see the potential of a physics editor -- at least in setting up physics rigs. before when making a car game there was way too much trial-and-error involved in setting up the suspension properly, and a visual editor would be very useful.

Posted By: Why_Do_I_Die

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/10/07 07:23

ahh the A7 thing again , yes it's a complete dissapointment to non programmers , and programmers , well , why on earth would you use gamestudio to begin with ? There's better engines for the programming heads to use, as you should at least know another language like C++ or delphi or something to call yourselv a programmer , if it's C-Script you program and moving to lite-c then here's news for you , YOUR NOT A PROGRAMMER , go learn a real language and do some real coding. As for the workflow thing , yeah , gamestudio failed to improve any of that with A7 , I dont even know how that could be called A7 , it;s A6.90 or something , everything thats been on the forcast is still there , lol , wasnt the forcast suff suppossed to be stuff for the next engine ? But no need to keep saying it , I think everyone already knows it , maybe A8 will be what A7 was suppossed to be , who knows , who cares , I'm sticking with A6 for all my current projects , and when I need to work on soem type of next gen game , I'll just look for a good alternative.

btw , to the one who said Next Gen is a marketing term and doesnt mean anything , lol , it means a game with the new shader technology , the difference between ut2004 and unreal tournament 3 .

Posted By: JibbSmart

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/10/07 08:14

ah, why_do_i_die's contribution again.

Quote:

yes it's a complete dissapointment to non programmers , and programmers , well , why on earth would you use gamestudio to begin with ?

if you're not a programmer, what are you doing here? why are you even using a game-engine? make renders with blender. it's free, and you have much less to worry about in terms of aesthetics-vs-speed. why can't you get a job as a game artist? if you have one, why are you even here?

Quote:

if it's C-Script you program and moving to lite-c then here's news for you , YOUR NOT A PROGRAMMER , go learn a real language and do some real coding.

learning C-script or lite-C is a great way for aspiring programmers to learn how to program. also, lite-C has almost all the functionality of C, and soon it will surpass that with the forecast support for classes. C programmers can do just about whatever they want with it, and C++ programmers can do just about whatever they want via the SDK.

Quote:

As for the workflow thing , yeah , gamestudio failed to improve any of that with A7 , I dont even know how that could be called A7 , it;s A6.90 or something , everything thats been on the forcast is still there , lol , wasnt the forcast suff suppossed to be stuff for the next engine ? But no need to keep saying it , I think everyone already knows it , maybe A8 will be what A7 was suppossed to be , who knows , who cares , I'm sticking with A6 for all my current projects , and when I need to work on soem type of next gen game , I'll just look for a good alternative.

i agree that there's been no workflow improvements. i personally don't have a problem with it -- blender for art and program everything else -- but i can understand if some aren't too chuffed about it. however, as of the next update, A7 has a huge improvement in the post-processing effects workflow, and this is a really big deal for shader programmers AND non programmers trying to implement post-processing effects from other people. T7 and the interactive level editor are in public beta and should be in an official update soon. as to other forecast features still being there -- almost all the stuff that's still there is almost finished or in beta. we have a lot coming out soon, and those who already own A7 will have those features as soon as they are available.

Quote:

btw , to the one who said Next Gen is a marketing term and doesnt mean anything , lol , it means a game with the new shader technology , the difference between ut2004 and unreal tournament 3 .

there's obviously a generation gap between the unreal engines. what's being discussed is the term "next gen" being used to describe the quality of graphics in games. there's nothing "next gen" about it unless it hasn't been done before. it has a fairly clear meaning -- great graphics -- but the choice of words is just marketing hype.

basically i can understand you not being happy with A7 yet, and sticking with A6, but you tend to portray your own opinion as the best, but at the moment seems to lack a certain degree of education in regards to the matters discussed

julz

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/10/07 08:34

Quote:

programmer, what are you doing here? why are you even using a game-engine? make renders with blender. it's free, and you have much less to worry about in terms of aesthetics-vs-speed. why can't you get a job as a game artist? if you have one, why are you even here?

No offense to anyone particular(!), but I tend to wonder the exact same thing. If people are not satisfied with this product they should simply sell it and move on to another product and realize that they've bought what A6 (A7) had to offer when they bought it, not what it might have at some point in time based on the forecast (which with all due respect is still subject to change whenever things planned change and guarantee nothing).

Quote:

to the one who said Next Gen is a marketing term and doesnt mean anything , lol , it means a game with the new shader technology , the difference between ut2004 and unreal tournament 3

Lol, riiight, which is why everybody says the Wii is 'next-gen' too.

Trust me, it is a marketing strategy... there hasn't fundamentally changed anything between Unreal Tournament 2004 and Unreal Tournament 3. Sure feature-wise there is a gap, but to say it's a new 'generation'... I don't know if I could agree with such statements. From a technical point of view it's not a revolution but more an evolution,

Cheers

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/10/07 22:54

Quote:

MED will never ever be better than blender as a model editor. of course, it would be nice if it was close, but no matter how much MED is improved people will still use blender instead. i think conitec know that, and that's why they invest more effort into what is required to compete with the rest: the actual engine and scripting language.

I agree
Many people complain about 3DGS graphic capabilities but in my opinion a game engine should focus only on the in line graphic topics
i.e. real time lightening \ shadowing , culling, LOD, BSP and all that stuff.

For Modelling - texturing - animation and in general for all off line graphic topics you must use third party application if you want the top
if you use an all in one application you can not expect to get the top

Posted By: Why_Do_I_Die

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/11/07 01:22

LOL, everyone knows Wii is not next gen , you'd have to be retarded to believe that.

Ah the programmers vs artist debates , well programmer wana bes because if ur a scripter your not a programmer, lol. From the front page "Gamestudio is not a game engine, not a game editor, and not a game programming language. It's all of them together" Can you read that ? Do you understand what it means ? Can that clue you as to why some are dissapointed ? Yes, Lite-C is suppossed to be more advanced than C-Script , but the point is we already had C-Scipt , we had just moved to C-Script in A5 , why would the focus of A7 be a new scripting language , it's retarded , thats why I was dissapointed.

How can I put this so that you will understand , The reason people come to gamestudio is because it offers the ability to get into game development withought having to be a full programmer , so , if your an artist , and like games , you get gamestudio to make game making much easier. Programmers tend to not even like gamestudio , because it's stupid to want to use gamestudio as ur engine if your a programmer , there's better options out there for those. Lite-C is useless garbage , because we already had the SDK for DLL making. But to be honest , I prolly just made assumptions about A7 i shouldnt have , but I dont see how I could think A7 was going to be A6 with a new scripting language , oh and a new render that renders exactly like the old one, incredible. Only an idiot would support conitec's decision , even if your a programmer , you still shouldfind it shitty that you still have to programm every single thing you need, as you still have more work to do even for simple things.

I myself know how to C-Script , so I'm not a pure artist , In fact , I actualy enjoy scripting , so I dont just make art and see chinese when I see a script , but , even though I like scripting , since I do levels, models , and script , I would have much prefered to have the other additions I've poited in the past to a new scripting language , render that renders the same as old one , and a couple of other things here and there that i'll never notice.

Another thing I felt dissapointed with , is the lack of tech demo , and lack of art that came wth A7. When is Conitec going to hire someone to make a good model pack to include with it's software ? We have a couple of very good artists here in the community , and many others aroun the web who do freelance for pretty decentprices , why is it that gamestudio still comes with Quake 1 qualty mdels (in fact , they are worst , quake at least had cool models) , and textures. Now this is something everyone , including the programmers would benefit from , having a solid
model pack , texure pack , soudn pack , music pack . Now this might sound abmitious , but it isnt , for a company like conitec it should be very cheap to hire some freelance artists to make some good stuff for fairly cheap pricess, I mean , even I've hired people before to make me a model here and there , how is it that conitec cant afford to do that ?

So there's a thousand and one reasons for my dislike/dissapointment with A7 , how there's people who justify it is beyond my comprehension , but you have to COMPARE it to A5 and A6 , and not judge it like it's a brad new engine , what you really have to judge is it's prgrogress from one engine version to the next , not just the engine itself.

Posted By: HeelX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/11/07 01:53

Please let us make steps forwards and not backwards... we are talking about the workflow of the engine and not about complaints of edgy people which tend to freak out a little bit too often - seriously.

I wonder if Conitec would be willing to buy/pay for 3rd party tools / plugins to fully integrate it into the 3D Gamestudio suite.

Posted By: Why_Do_I_Die

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/11/07 02:05

"I wonder if Conitec would be willing to buy/pay for 3rd party tools / plugins to fully integrate it into the 3D Gamestudio suite"

How many times have I said exactly the same thing ?

"Please let us make steps forwards and not backwards... we are talking about the workflow of the engine and not about complaints of edgy people which tend to freak out a little bit too often - seriously."
Thats what we're talking about , that the A7 workflow is the same as the A6 one , exactly the same. No need to explain it here , as there's been countless discussions on next gen shaders and the like for A6.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/11/07 08:46

I quote from Beyond Virtual web page
quote

True WYSIWYG World Editing & Object placement
One-button game launching / testing; One-button Game export!
No level compiles, instant game previewing
Auto-reloading of modified Content (3d geometry, 2d textures)
Interactive Camera Path Editor complete with VCR-style controls, path smoothing (adjust bias for keyframe transitions), time controls, independent camera targeting control, and much more

In-game debugging tools for Collision Meshes, Occlusion, Pathfinding, Object Interaction Zones (triggers, mission scripting, character/object interaction)
Object Previewer
Preview models, animations & textures how they will appear in-game
Edit materials
Apply normal / specular maps
Preview objects with per-pixel realtime shadows

unquote

I remain of the opinion that this is the correct approach
A game engine should provide just an "INTERFACE" with 3dthird party tools as well as to take care of " on the fly" graphic issues such as dynamic lighting and shadowing
You can not expect to have built_in advanced graphic features ,not at least for 200 usd
A game engine top priority must be the engine, sorry for the tautology

Anyway I agree that I did not see so many porogress from A6 to A7 as far as workflow is concerned

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/11/07 10:13

Absolutely. I can fully agree with that. The most important part of a game engine is the ... you might expect it ... the game engine, the render kernel, scene management, lights and shadows, handling of models, animations, im- and export, sound handling, particles, execution of scripts.

So there is really no problem if MED is not as good as blender, Lightwave, XSI or Silo. We can live with that and just get another tool. More important is the render kernel.

But I wonder why I see in every new beta release only improvements of Lite-C. Did you see that Lite-C gets classes in the future? Let us think about it: Lite-C uses pointers, structs, C-syntax and soon it supports classes. Do I smell C++ here? Why should one research and develop several years to make a C++ clone? Why not improving the renderer in this time and just provide a C++, C# and Java SDK plus a LUA scripting port?

Gamestudio becomes a multimedia-programming-language.

As a programmer familiar with Delphi, C#, Java and many script languages I learned C++ this year to better understand engines like Irrlicht, Ogre and C4. And I realized that Lite-C just becomes something like that. At the end I am able to use all the other engines but with faster rendering, second uv-set, static and dynamic shadows and modern shaders.

I think this is dangerous for Gamestudio. It starts to compete with those free and cheap engines. You need the same amount of programming knowledge. Scripting is not easy anymore. But the renderer is not really better. The advantage of gamestudio to deliver all tools and provide a very easy scripting port vanishes and thus it should at least outperform the competition in rendering capabilities.

As a resume we see that workflow did not become better it could even become more complicated for scripting newbies. MED became more difficult in terms of texturing and uv-mapping, the compiling options for WED became more difficult and Lite-C offers way more traps for newbies in terms of memory leaks, wrong pointer usage, lowercase vs. uppercase and much more.

All this can be accepted if you get more performance and more options at the end. Ask yourself if that is the case.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/11/07 11:19

I have nothing to add to what you said
I was just answering to some professional complainers in this forum
Usesless to say that costructive critics are positive

Blatt salat said that Conitec shoud be forced to finish at least a small game from the scratch

You agreed
I agree

However also end users should be forced to do it before writing a review about the last game engine in town

How many times we have read something like

" Fantastic...it can make this...and...this...why that bloody 3dgs .."
and some monthes later
" Forget it , it so buggy that you can not even finish a small game "

Posted By: yung

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/14/07 13:00

I dont want to start another jaded debate, Im only posting to help 'workflow issues' become solved in areas that, whether or not every individual is familiar with or accustomed to, are infact relevant issues that need addressing and have for years. I keep going back to the cutscene thing only because it, like all other workflow increasing tools, to be really good and useful it requires:
#1: fully encompassing range of options definable, and
#2: an easy in-out method of usage.

Its true that no one can forsee every type of project another user might be trying to create, but its also true that with only so many properties exsisting for each type of element (camera, entities, panel, particles), what CAN be forseen are all the properties the user can possibly manipulate, therefore a univeral interface can be created. Therefore, certain tools address certain issues, like the seeding thing, for worlds that the engine cannot render all at once, it is a real solution.
Therefore, I think our best option for actually 'moving forward and not backward' is:
create a list of game design aspects that need camp-able solutions, then work from this list to develop a set of master tools. If people could just see what they have in common instead of what they don't, I think this forum and its user could become much more coherent and productive.
[ie: Why worry about every other game engine out there when A5/A6/A7 people use it because what they want to create can be achieved, with some effort.]

PS: I havent released CS-Tools yet because Im waiting to see where this thread is going, while putting the finishing touches on it.

Posted By: Wicht

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/14/07 16:08

The term "next gen workflow" is a little bit confusing. The better term is "user friendly".

What do we really need? A All-In-One-Package !!!

- Start WED
- the A7-Renderer is now active
- select the 3D-Brush and paint/texture your terrain
- place your models or...
- paint your models like grass, plants and trees
- you should now see shaders in action
- place static and dynamic lights and see the results in Realtime (with Shadows)
- if you want: create your own cutscenes with an integrated editor
- same with Particles (no external application)

These points have nothing to do with "Next gen". Only with "user friendly".
GameEdit is good but far away from a All-In-One-Package.

The current price of the Pro-Edition is a joke. Nothing more.
You don't believe me? See Unity Engine 2

Posted By: TheExpert

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/14/07 17:42

I agree totally with you Wicht

Posted By: Felixsg

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/14/07 23:37

Quote:

You don't believe me? See Unity Engine 2

that is for macintosh yes is a great tool but for macintosh the price are more of double then than gamestudio (new mac computer plus pro license)

Posted By: D3D

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/14/07 23:47

If they come with the Windows version in 2008 i'll be in line for purchase

Only downside is something about that license and porting to other platforms.

Posted By: Joozey

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/15/07 00:23

Quote:

Why should one research and develop several years to make a C++ clone? Why not improving the renderer in this time and just provide a C++, C# and Java SDK plus a LUA scripting port?

Cause not all employees at conitec (can) work on the engine? Obviously the lite-c development team have faster results than the engine development team, which is not really that odd. And the reason that we don't have next-gen workflow is because Wladimir is a little lazy

Posted By: Orange Brat

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/15/07 18:54

I don't think he's lazy, I think he's busy at work on something we may not know about, for WED, that will kick our collective backsides.

Not that there's anything wrong with it as is...for me....right now.

Posted By: lionclaws

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/26/07 07:51

@ Orange Brat:
I have to agree plus A7 in general to me, is a step forward no matter how small.
As for "UNITY_v2.0",that's a nice package from what users are saying...a great gaming tool set.
Unity Indie �149.00/$199.00/�24000
Unity Pro �1099.00/$1499.00
I email the guys over there why is taking them a long time to implement a window version?.
Well,the answer was not very straight forward.
I am not even sure they will have a win_32/64 version of "UNITY"in 2K8.
I will stick w/A7 for the time being guys.
cheers

Posted By: Why_Do_I_Die

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 11/26/07 09:56

"I have to agree plus A7 in general to me, is a step forward no matter how small."

It's actually a step backwards : )

Posted By: DavidLancaster

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 02/11/08 13:35

Unity 3d ftw, if it worked on Windows

Posted By: lionclaws

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 02/13/08 04:56

Why_Do_I_Die:

"It's actually a step backwards : )"

Well, in terms of what?.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 02/13/08 13:00

Quote:

How many times we have read something like

" Fantastic...it can make this...and...this...why that bloody 3dgs .."
and some monthes later
" Forget it , it so buggy that you can not even finish a small game "

That's usually not why projects fail here...

Cheers

Posted By: Why_Do_I_Die

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 02/17/08 09:12

"Well, in terms of what?"
For existing users , workflow(having to learn a new scripting language).

Posted By: Slin

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 02/17/08 10:44

Quote:

having to learn a new scripting language

It took me about about 1 hour to get to know the differences from lite-c to c-script and about one week to get as familar with lite-c as I am with c-script.
But this small amount of time was definatly worth it. There are A LOT of new posibilities now with lite-c.

Posted By: croman

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 02/17/08 13:41

yes, it's easy to learn lite-c and it's better then c-script but the problem is that, take me for example, need to change whole project to lite-c. that can be annoying job..

Posted By: JibbSmart

Re: A7 next gen workflow : - 02/18/08 00:45

but you don't need to. you can use c-script with a7. you don't change to lite-c unless you think the advantages of using lite-c will out-weigh the effort of converting from c-script, in which case it still isn't "a step backwards" (as Why_Do_I_Die called it) for anyone.

julz