Posted By: MaxF
C4 Game
Posted By: Frederick_Lim
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 05:16
I have a license of this engine, but it is not easy to use.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 12:43
I have license and I have contact to users using this and other engines like Unity3d and asked them as well.
C4 is superior when it comes to lighting and rendering features. Unity3d as an example is more easy in terms of editors and workflow.
C4 offers a visual node-based scripting editor, level, material and model editor. They are all powerful and provide fantastic lighting (several types of lights and shadows and all are fast).
The scene management with portals allows to create big levels, much better for indoors than Unity3d or Gamestudio while providing modern visuals at the same time.
The panel/GUI system is told to be very easy and powerful. There are interactive panels in the demo and a panel editor.
But the community is smaller but they help if you have questions. You can even talk to the programmer (Eric).
If you want to add more functionality then you have to know C++ with good understanding of it's object orientation.
The announced new features of the next edition are amazing, including streaming for even bigger worlds without level-load, more shadow-options, more post-processing including HDR and so on.
In terms of technology this is the best indie engine out there.
C4 is superior when it comes to lighting and rendering features. Unity3d as an example is more easy in terms of editors and workflow.
C4 offers a visual node-based scripting editor, level, material and model editor. They are all powerful and provide fantastic lighting (several types of lights and shadows and all are fast).
The scene management with portals allows to create big levels, much better for indoors than Unity3d or Gamestudio while providing modern visuals at the same time.
The panel/GUI system is told to be very easy and powerful. There are interactive panels in the demo and a panel editor.
But the community is smaller but they help if you have questions. You can even talk to the programmer (Eric).
If you want to add more functionality then you have to know C++ with good understanding of it's object orientation.
The announced new features of the next edition are amazing, including streaming for even bigger worlds without level-load, more shadow-options, more post-processing including HDR and so on.
In terms of technology this is the best indie engine out there.
Posted By: broozar
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 16:48
did they solve the collision issues?
Posted By: Vadim647
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 17:02
I seen the screenshots and I can say, that C4 developers were pros in lightening. But I don't like such engines for node script editors.
Anyway, I prefer using GameStudio and LiteC.
Anyway, I prefer using GameStudio and LiteC.
Posted By: DJBMASTER
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 17:35
Yeh, the lighting effects are really impressive, but i'm sure with a little time and effort game studio could pull them off.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 17:54
The screenshots are not impressive at all. But I saw a great project made with it. It is powerful and can look extremely pretty. They use some interesting solutions to create semi-realistic dynamic lighting (e.g. via cubic light maps). This approach is simply faster than real dynamic lighting.
The renderer is fast even with parallax lighting. The engine is optimized to work with those shaders so it is simply the fastest affordable out there. No chance to achieve the same with another tool.
I talked with experienced coders used to work with different engines. They agreed that you can prototype with tools like Unity3d or Gamestudio but if you want to create something really working with big levels, good scene-management and visuals then C4 is simply superior.
Especially shader geometry needs good clipping / culling / scene management. Otherwise your graphic card will suffer from the amount of polygons, textures and shader batches.
The renderer is fast even with parallax lighting. The engine is optimized to work with those shaders so it is simply the fastest affordable out there. No chance to achieve the same with another tool.
I talked with experienced coders used to work with different engines. They agreed that you can prototype with tools like Unity3d or Gamestudio but if you want to create something really working with big levels, good scene-management and visuals then C4 is simply superior.
Especially shader geometry needs good clipping / culling / scene management. Otherwise your graphic card will suffer from the amount of polygons, textures and shader batches.
Posted By: MaxF
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 18:09
Hi All
Thanks for all the information, the only thing I don't like about this engine is the licensing.
Thanks for all the information, the only thing I don't like about this engine is the licensing.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/10/08 19:16
What do you mean with licensing problems?
Licensing is perfect. You can do whatever you want to create, plus giving your team-members the tools.
I talked with Eric about it and did not find problems with license.
Licensing is perfect. You can do whatever you want to create, plus giving your team-members the tools.
I talked with Eric about it and did not find problems with license.
Posted By: Paul_L_Ming
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 04:08
Hiya.
(The web ate my first post, so I'll sum up)...
C4 = Great!
Get it now. Even if you aren't a C++ programmer....get it. In the near future this engine is going to be a serious contender for the 'big boys', IMHO. Get in now, on the ground floor. For $200, you can't go wrong with this baby!
(The web ate my first post, so I'll sum up)...
C4 = Great!
Get it now. Even if you aren't a C++ programmer....get it. In the near future this engine is going to be a serious contender for the 'big boys', IMHO. Get in now, on the ground floor. For $200, you can't go wrong with this baby!
Posted By: ulf
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 10:08
can anyone show me some real games made with it or even good looking demos/screenshots? the demo at their site did not impress me at all.
all it was, where 3 very tiny levels, with some shader effects - but this is not the environment for a complete game. i would say with optimized shaders the exact same demo could run with gs too.
all it was, where 3 very tiny levels, with some shader effects - but this is not the environment for a complete game. i would say with optimized shaders the exact same demo could run with gs too.
Posted By: ventilator
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 10:26
i think if you are an artist you don't need to buy it. the level editor can be used for free.
some parts of c4 (like animation and collision detection) still were a bit rough when i last checked (a year or so ago).
i thought about buying it but i didn't like its license. $200 for life long free updates is nice but there is some IP stuff in it which i found scary.
some parts of c4 (like animation and collision detection) still were a bit rough when i last checked (a year or so ago).
i thought about buying it but i didn't like its license. $200 for life long free updates is nice but there is some IP stuff in it which i found scary.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 13:46
Ulf: You probably did not test the demo. It looks okay, not impressive but it has outdoor, some sci-fi indoors including a room with rotating and shadow-casting ventilator, swinging lamps (casting light and shadows dynamically) and a fantasy dungeon. There are alot of rooms, stairs even a portal leading to the terrain again. It heavily showcases the good scene management with portals and zones. It even has interactive panels where you can switch on / off ventilator or lights.
Better check it more deeply next time!
You said that you can do the same in A7. I am interested to see it. Really. We try it ourself and current scene-management is not suited for indoors. We have to write our own. The same counts for interactive panels, dynamic shadows and much more.
I am looking forward to your approach!
You want to see links to real games? Here they come:
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Games
And here is a Galery:
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gallery
Check the video of "The Unknown". You will be amazed how good it looks, much much better than the official Demo.
The license is ok. I get updates for a lifetime. I can use standard license but I need commercial license if I publish through a big publisher. If I publish through small publishers or myself then there is no restriction at all.
Very simple and clear and very fair as well.
And yes, you are right. You can create levels with the demo. You dont need a license if you just use it without changing the source code. But nevertheless I bought it. So I get updates for a lifetime and I own a license. And I am sure it will become more expensive in the future when new improved versions come up.
Just look what amounts of features come up with every release in very short times:
http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/notes.php
Better check it more deeply next time!
You said that you can do the same in A7. I am interested to see it. Really. We try it ourself and current scene-management is not suited for indoors. We have to write our own. The same counts for interactive panels, dynamic shadows and much more.
I am looking forward to your approach!
You want to see links to real games? Here they come:
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Games
And here is a Galery:
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gallery
Check the video of "The Unknown". You will be amazed how good it looks, much much better than the official Demo.
The license is ok. I get updates for a lifetime. I can use standard license but I need commercial license if I publish through a big publisher. If I publish through small publishers or myself then there is no restriction at all.
Very simple and clear and very fair as well.
And yes, you are right. You can create levels with the demo. You dont need a license if you just use it without changing the source code. But nevertheless I bought it. So I get updates for a lifetime and I own a license. And I am sure it will become more expensive in the future when new improved versions come up.
Just look what amounts of features come up with every release in very short times:
http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/notes.php
Posted By: ventilator
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 14:04
the current outdoor area isn't very big. it's like just another room. is the terrain and vegetation system done already?
the lighting system is very nice though.
the problem i have with the license is the stuff with the formulas and algorithms and so on. if you look at the c4 source code you probably can't avoid to get some ideas from it. you better shouldn't get c4 if you plan to do your own graphics programming projects sometime afterwards (the life long license isn't that great in this case
).
the lighting system is very nice though.
the problem i have with the license is the stuff with the formulas and algorithms and so on. if you look at the c4 source code you probably can't avoid to get some ideas from it. you better shouldn't get c4 if you plan to do your own graphics programming projects sometime afterwards (the life long license isn't that great in this case
).
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 14:07
The next version will get completely new terrain system with streaming (they call it "background zone loading") like Oblivion, Unity3d, QuakeWars and so on. This is the future of game engines. Because of this you have no RAM restrictions and you can port to Consoles more easily.
Here are more forecast features:
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Official_Roadmap
Here are more forecast features:
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Official_Roadmap
Posted By: ulf
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 16:58
Father_Frank: oh i did run the demo, thats why i said it did not impress me so much. as ventilator said, the current outdoor area there is not very big! and i have seen much better looking terrain in gamestudio already.
...and the 'dungeon' is also pretty small, the same with the multiplayer map.
really that demo can be reproduced with optimized shaders.
it might not look as good because of the lightning - wich is really looking good in c4. and maybe the speed is not so fast, because c4's renderer seems to be built for/around this one level/shooter type of gameplay, but it should be possible... i dont know where the problems would be? what problems did you have when you tried something similar?
the demos are also not very impressive(you could say the same about gamestudio) i liked that persia thing most. the "unknown video" is just a very little parking zone with some details/car models? why is this exciting? okay i have to admit the lightning is good - but thats all. its the same limited space like in the engine demo, some highres models thrown in + shaders...
besides i dont know why they need those movement blur shader, this is just ugly. i mean if you look at moving stuff on your monitor, your eyes automatically blur the stuff on the sides because they focus on the middle. why does everyone think this forced motion blur is good looking? but thats just my personal opinion
i think this is way overused and not necessary.
...and the 'dungeon' is also pretty small, the same with the multiplayer map.
really that demo can be reproduced with optimized shaders.
it might not look as good because of the lightning - wich is really looking good in c4. and maybe the speed is not so fast, because c4's renderer seems to be built for/around this one level/shooter type of gameplay, but it should be possible... i dont know where the problems would be? what problems did you have when you tried something similar?
the demos are also not very impressive(you could say the same about gamestudio
) i liked that persia thing most. the "unknown video" is just a very little parking zone with some details/car models? why is this exciting? okay i have to admit the lightning is good - but thats all. its the same limited space like in the engine demo, some highres models thrown in + shaders...besides i dont know why they need those movement blur shader, this is just ugly. i mean if you look at moving stuff on your monitor, your eyes automatically blur the stuff on the sides because they focus on the middle. why does everyone think this forced motion blur is good looking? but thats just my personal opinion
i think this is way overused and not necessary.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 18:20
you probably have not much experience with detailed indoor scenery and scene-management. If you make it with A7 and ABT scene manager then all the rooms in camera view will be rendered even if they are behind a wall. The amount of models and polygons is huge then.
ABT is good for outdoor but useless for indoor. The A7 pro BSP does not run smooth with shaders.
In C4 the system renders only the zone you are visiting. Many engines use such zone / portal system like Lawmaker, Torque, Unreal. Sometimes it is combined with a BSP (but still with user defined portals).
But if you really can do that then dont talk, just do it and make a contribution of that level. We all would be happy to see it with shaders applied.
ABT is good for outdoor but useless for indoor. The A7 pro BSP does not run smooth with shaders.
In C4 the system renders only the zone you are visiting. Many engines use such zone / portal system like Lawmaker, Torque, Unreal. Sometimes it is combined with a BSP (but still with user defined portals).
But if you really can do that then dont talk, just do it and make a contribution of that level. We all would be happy to see it with shaders applied.
Posted By: ulf
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 19:39
i did not say i can do this, all i said was, that the c4 demo uses very simple geometry with shaders applied - and that you can do this with gamestudio too(simple rooms with a normalmap shader, terrain...).
no model like a tree has animation, there is no grass, the movement in this demo is more than bad, you get stuck pretty often in some wall or stairs, weapons stick in the wall, particle effects look very bad and so on...and that is imho nothing to be excited about. in fact i even find the overuse of motion blur disturbing in such a showcase demo.
and i think its my right to express my opinion about this here, even if i can't show you a gamestudio demo similar to this.
btw, i would say the exact same about the gamestudio showcase demo, wich is in fact even worse, than the c4 one...
no model like a tree has animation, there is no grass, the movement in this demo is more than bad, you get stuck pretty often in some wall or stairs, weapons stick in the wall, particle effects look very bad and so on...and that is imho nothing to be excited about. in fact i even find the overuse of motion blur disturbing in such a showcase demo.
and i think its my right to express my opinion about this here, even if i can't show you a gamestudio demo similar to this.
btw, i would say the exact same about the gamestudio showcase demo, wich is in fact even worse, than the c4 one...
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/11/08 20:03
Ulf, we did talk about the technology and we all agreed that demo ist not exciting. So there is no need to get upset because of that and no need to bash a programmers art demo made for a one-man engine (eric is the only one behind this company).
The engine is exciting, the amount of updates in short times is exciting and the technology is.
The engine is exciting, the amount of updates in short times is exciting and the technology is.
Posted By: Paul_L_Ming
Re: C4 Game - 02/12/08 01:25
Hiya.
The 'demo' of C4 is primarily a "See what tech this engine has right now" kinda thing. It is *not* meant to 'show off a new kick-ass game'. It isn't a game; there is no unifying theme, color scheme, intelligent layout, etc....it's just a simple couple rooms that show off some of the tech.
Just wait until we get the terrain and vegetation stuff going!
The 'demo' of C4 is primarily a "See what tech this engine has right now" kinda thing. It is *not* meant to 'show off a new kick-ass game'. It isn't a game; there is no unifying theme, color scheme, intelligent layout, etc....it's just a simple couple rooms that show off some of the tech.
Just wait until we get the terrain and vegetation stuff going!
Posted By: mmelo
Re: C4 Game - 02/12/08 22:46
It's interesting that, in it's simplicity, I find NeoAxis' engine demo the best yet for any engine. It has lots of rooms and in each he shows you a particular feature. It's renderer may not be as good as C4 and it's tools not as good as A7, but the developer (I think his name is Ivan) really puts a lot of effort in it.
It just comes through as a very honest piece of work.
Disclaimer: I don't own a license of any of the three engines above, so I am beyond suspicion.
It just comes through as a very honest piece of work.
Disclaimer: I don't own a license of any of the three engines above, so I am beyond suspicion.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/13/08 09:23
Yes. I agree. There is much love in this neo-axis demo though it is not good looking as well.
But you see that there went much work in it. Even little games are built in into some rooms (turret demo, RTS demo, crane demo, AI-demo, physics). And the control via interactive panels built into 3d models directly in the world is impressive as well.
But you see that there went much work in it. Even little games are built in into some rooms (turret demo, RTS demo, crane demo, AI-demo, physics). And the control via interactive panels built into 3d models directly in the world is impressive as well.
Posted By: D3D
Re: C4 Game - 02/14/08 18:09
Bought C4 yesterday after reading that I get free upgrades for a lifetime. So yes can't go wrong there. About NeoAxis, it is free for hobbyists like me which is also very nice. In the meantime I stick with GameStudio though, the only software that allow me to reach my goal easier..
Note to Echelon: Before turning around my life, with C4 I meant a game engine
Note to Echelon: Before turning around my life, with C4 I meant a game engine
Posted By: broozar
Re: C4 Game - 02/15/08 10:42
any idea why it offers a mac osX port, but not a linux port? if it had one, i'd buy it immediately.
Posted By: jigalypuff
Re: C4 Game - 02/15/08 17:58
i thought this demo looked pretty good, could someone tell me what language is needed for codeing a game? is it a kind of c-script?
Posted By: mmelo
Re: C4 Game - 02/16/08 00:31
I believe it's all C++. So it's like the big brother of lite-C.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/16/08 11:57
Yes, you need C++ for new features. Otherwise you can script with a node-based visual editor. This is very helpful for the level-designers.
Posted By: Paul_L_Ming
Re: C4 Game - 02/17/08 00:52
Hiya.
In regards to the Linux question: Not officially. That said, there is a 'community project' for a few folks who have taken to tweaking the code base for Linux use. With the latest versions (I think Build 145 or later), Eric has done something with the QuickTime code part so that you can 'ignore' it for compilation or something (I'm not a programmer).
Anyway, just go to the C4 forums and do a search for "Linux" and you should get all the info you need.
In regards to the Linux question: Not officially.
That said, there is a 'community project' for a few folks who have taken to tweaking the code base for Linux use. With the latest versions (I think Build 145 or later), Eric has done something with the QuickTime code part so that you can 'ignore' it for compilation or something (I'm not a programmer).Anyway, just go to the C4 forums and do a search for "Linux" and you should get all the info you need.
Posted By: broozar
Re: C4 Game - 02/17/08 21:42
well, if it's not officially supported, i don't have the time nor the knowledge to tweak a whole engine for a certain operating system. and if i'm purchasing something, i expect it to work. if i just wanted to play around, i could use irrlicht form the start. so if there is no official port yet, ok, that's all the info i needed. so i'll be patient...
Posted By: D3D
Re: C4 Game - 02/18/08 03:38
Guess people started to try port it to linux because at least they have the C4 engine source-code. Will take time before something stable comes out though, but its a start. If GameStudio Pro could publish to Mac and Linux I would upgrade today!
Posted By: broozar
Re: C4 Game - 02/18/08 10:09
as it's directX-based, dream on, it will never be until gs moves to openGL.
Posted By: mmelo
Re: C4 Game - 02/18/08 22:05
Quote:
If GameStudio Pro could publish to Mac and Linux I would upgrade today!
Yeah, I feel GS being a single-platform engine will increasingly play against it. It seems these days everything can compile to 2 or more stacks, which is a boon.
Posted By: MaxF
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 04:38
This what I mean about licensing:
"Royalties must be paid on a shipped game"
Professional License = "You only need a Professional License if your publisher is a member of the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) or the Entertainment and Leisure Software Publishers Association (ELSPA). "
"Royalties must be paid on a shipped game"
Professional License = "You only need a Professional License if your publisher is a member of the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) or the Entertainment and Leisure Software Publishers Association (ELSPA). "
Quote:
What's the difference between the Standard License and the Professional License?
* The Standard License does not allow you to publish with a major publisher as defined in the previous question. However, standard licensees can still publish through publishers who are not members of the ESA or ELSPA.
* A separate Standard License must be purchased for each programmer. Under the Professional License, there is no limit to the number of users at a single company.
* The Professional License comes with additional support. Your company will receive a private area on our forums to which only they have access, and your feature requests have higher priority.
* The Professional License is issued for a single game title, whereas the Standard License can be used for an unlimited number of titles.
* Royalties must be paid on a shipped game title under the Professional License. For games shipped under the Standard License, no royalties need to be paid.
* The Professional License reverts to a Standard License after your game ships. This means that you still get updates for life, but you can't publish a second game through a major publisher without obtaining a new Professional License.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 09:15
You can publish as often as you want and without royalties with the standard license.
More than 99 percent of us will never publish through a big publisher. So we do not need the professional license.
You can be happy to sell your product for 10 bucks at a few casual websites.
But if you have the next crysis-killer, then you have spent so much money that the professional license will be peanuts for you and your publisher.
So this is not really an issue. First make your killer game with standard license and then see what happens
More than 99 percent of us will never publish through a big publisher. So we do not need the professional license.
You can be happy to sell your product for 10 bucks at a few casual websites.
But if you have the next crysis-killer, then you have spent so much money that the professional license will be peanuts for you and your publisher.
So this is not really an issue. First make your killer game with standard license and then see what happens
Posted By: MaxF
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 15:33
Very True.
What do you think of C4 .v. S2 engine?
What do you think of C4 .v. S2 engine?
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 16:01
Quote:
What do you think of C4 .v. S2 engine?
Good question. I like both.
But C4 has better Collada support. I can import animated models via Collada. In S2 you can only import static meshes with Collada and animated models have to be exported from 3ds max. This is not good for me as a Lightwave user.
S2 comes with a C-syntax-scripting language. This might be more comfortable for many C-Script users but it is still brand new and they are writing on docs this week. So I will wait and judge after the release.
If you checked the last beta-demos from A7 then you know that both engines render significantly faster than A7.
Gamecore will also beat this. I know some users checking the beta version of it and their engine renders shader based with lots of new technology for shadows and lighting, path-finding, AI, customizable scene-management and so on.
But at the end they all have do provide good documentation to convince the indie and hobby developers. And these were the weak spots in the past.
So we still have to wait a few weeks to judge that.
Posted By: ulf
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 16:39
Quote:
You can publish as often as you want and without royalties with the standard license.
More than 99 percent of us will never publish through a big publisher. So we do not need the professional license.
You can be happy to sell your product for 10 bucks at a few casual websites.
But if you have the next crysis-killer, then you have spent so much money that the professional license will be peanuts for you and your publisher.
So this is not really an issue. First make your killer game with standard license and then see what happens
yeah this is the point, no one will ever put money into something wich is unshure like this. at least i wouldn't want to pump tons of money into something just to see what happens...
i like "strait forward" licenses much more that exactely tell you how much money you have to pay in what situations. (see gamestudio)
the next thing is, who decides what a "big" publisher is? lots of indies make money through portals such as bigfishgames, relfexive... and still get nothing!!! compared to what the portals make - but have no other choice. and the portals will not pay you anything for an engine and so on... they just decide if they sell your finished product. and they get tons of quality submissions each day. so if these license includes portals as "big publishers" no indie will ever use it...
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 17:50
ulf, read before you post!
"big publishers" are very well defined at the terathon website. You can even find this definition in this thread.
"big publishers" are very well defined at the terathon website. You can even find this definition in this thread.
Posted By: ulf
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 18:53
frank, i responded to the thing with the license restriction in general, i know what esa and elspa members are and in this case(c4) its pretty clear. (anyways, what happens if in the process of development your targeted publisher decides to join one of these institutions for whatever reasons?)
but this license thingy is becoming more and more common with unshure terms like "big" and so on. this is making me upset, because everyone and their mother wants to tie you to something, wich they can easily adjust after you bought a product to whatever they think fits them best at the moment.
i just want to raise attention to this because i lost money due to such unclear "contract" things. in the case of c4 this might be no problem, as long as a publisher for example dont decide to join the esa or elspa. maybe joining this institution becomes very profitable for them overnight... who knows.
so no need to start a war here, i just want to tell fellow developers to read and interpret these statements twice and dont ever sign something where you think with common sense because the other contracter can always say, "no i mean something else" afterwards...
okay now back to the c4 topic.
but this license thingy is becoming more and more common with unshure terms like "big" and so on. this is making me upset, because everyone and their mother wants to tie you to something, wich they can easily adjust after you bought a product to whatever they think fits them best at the moment.
i just want to raise attention to this because i lost money due to such unclear "contract" things. in the case of c4 this might be no problem, as long as a publisher for example dont decide to join the esa or elspa. maybe joining this institution becomes very profitable for them overnight... who knows.
so no need to start a war here, i just want to tell fellow developers to read and interpret these statements twice and dont ever sign something where you think with common sense because the other contracter can always say, "no i mean something else" afterwards...
okay now back to the c4 topic.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/19/08 19:30
C4 license is clear and fair.
If you publish through something like Ubisoft then there is enough money. Eric does a great job with C4 and I wish him to be successful.
I dont know why you get upset about licenses but this is business and a good technology is much more worth than only a few hundret bucks. So it is absolutely okay.
You dont have to buy it if you disagree. This is how business works.
If you publish through something like Ubisoft then there is enough money. Eric does a great job with C4 and I wish him to be successful.
I dont know why you get upset about licenses but this is business and a good technology is much more worth than only a few hundret bucks. So it is absolutely okay.
You dont have to buy it if you disagree. This is how business works.
Posted By: MaxF
Re: C4 Game - 02/20/08 01:50
Hi Frank
Thanks a lot
Thanks a lot
Posted By: Paul_L_Ming
Re: C4 Game - 02/20/08 02:08
Hiya.
...besides, if you are getting a publisher all lined up, just make sure there is a clause in your deal with them that says something along the line of "..if you get into ESA or ELSPA, you pay for the extra licensing stuff that the Professional License for C4 has".
There. Problem solved. That way the publisher can decide if joining is worth the added short-term cost.
...besides, if you are getting a publisher all lined up, just make sure there is a clause in your deal with them that says something along the line of "..if you get into ESA or ELSPA, you pay for the extra licensing stuff that the Professional License for C4 has".
There. Problem solved. That way the publisher can decide if joining is worth the added short-term cost.
Posted By: zazang
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 12:20
and dont forget that it can run on PS3 and Eric has a cool book on math stuff
..I think I'm going to invest in it
..I think I'm going to invest in it
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 12:36
I played once more with C4 (I have too little time for this fantastic tool) and I can say it is really fantastic. The material editor helps to tweak the material setup to the right point and playing with dynamic lighting in real-time is fantastic and fun.
Besides that it is simply well thought. Lots of stencils will slow A7 down. But in C4 you can mark a light as "static" and it will cache the shadow volume to not render shadow-volumes every frame and thus it is much faster even with lots of lights in a room.
Shadow maps are also available and you can use ambient spaces for control of distribution of light. Future upgrades are announced to have some kind of real-time radiosity within those ambient light spaces.
If you walk inside such an ambient space then your model or weapon will be affected by the shadows in real-time.
Here is a little shot from C4 made with some of my textures and 3 point lights, no shadows, nothing special:
This is a very promising engine and will outperform many others with ease because of very well thought optimizations in scene management (portals and zones) and lighting.
Besides that it is simply well thought. Lots of stencils will slow A7 down. But in C4 you can mark a light as "static" and it will cache the shadow volume to not render shadow-volumes every frame and thus it is much faster even with lots of lights in a room.
Shadow maps are also available and you can use ambient spaces for control of distribution of light. Future upgrades are announced to have some kind of real-time radiosity within those ambient light spaces.
If you walk inside such an ambient space then your model or weapon will be affected by the shadows in real-time.
Here is a little shot from C4 made with some of my textures and 3 point lights, no shadows, nothing special:
This is a very promising engine and will outperform many others with ease because of very well thought optimizations in scene management (portals and zones) and lighting.
Posted By: zazang
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 12:52
Yeah I second Frank on this one..This is sure going to stand out..For more details
of what people aresaying about this :- http://www.devmaster.net/engines/engine_details.php?id=42
of what people aresaying about this :- http://www.devmaster.net/engines/engine_details.php?id=42
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 13:34
Thanks zazang for this link. This was a very good and true statement there:
"As an Indie developer, I have limited resources, and most importantly, limited time. The clean, well thought out design of C4, and amazing support from Eric and the C4 community in general, means that our team can focus our time on building our game."
I would like to add that the good tools (model, texture, level and material-editors all previewing in real-time) are contributing to this idea to save time while working on your game.
"As an Indie developer, I have limited resources, and most importantly, limited time. The clean, well thought out design of C4, and amazing support from Eric and the C4 community in general, means that our team can focus our time on building our game."
I would like to add that the good tools (model, texture, level and material-editors all previewing in real-time) are contributing to this idea to save time while working on your game.
Posted By: D3D
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 13:41
Like C4 too. A really great engine for hobbyist like me, but for 90% of the people using GameStudio it will be put on cold ice after few hours/days. Reason is that it require C++ to add more functionality. I bought the engine because i'm learning C++ and also because you get free updates for a lifetime.
Posted By: Frederick_Lim
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 13:56
Quote:
but for 90% of the people using GameStudio it will be put on cold ice after few hours/days. Reason is that it require C++ to add more functionality
This is true to me, I don't have the time to write thing in C++. Powerful scripting is a very important factor to me to choose engine, and lite-C is the best on the market I think.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 13:56
Yes. I agree with you D3D. C++ is a bit more complex than C-Script. But since Lite-C also forces you to use pointers and structs the gap between Lite-C and C++ became smaller.
But a first FPS Demo can even be made in C4 without any C++ at all.
Personally I dislike C++. I like Pascal (Delphi), C# and Java more. It is safer, no memory leaks or crashes through misuse of pointers and such. But I learned C++ in a few days. Just look at
http://cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/
They have the best C++ tutorials on the net.
At the end there are issues with Lite-C like long compiling times, crashes in SED and debugger and more. This will not happen in C++ as long as you dont create your own memory traps.
But a first FPS Demo can even be made in C4 without any C++ at all.
Personally I dislike C++. I like Pascal (Delphi), C# and Java more. It is safer, no memory leaks or crashes through misuse of pointers and such. But I learned C++ in a few days. Just look at
http://cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/
They have the best C++ tutorials on the net.
At the end there are issues with Lite-C like long compiling times, crashes in SED and debugger and more. This will not happen in C++ as long as you dont create your own memory traps.
Posted By: zazang
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 14:51
I think Lite-C and C++ are far apart...Lite-C is definetly closer to C...As a programmer,I experienced that to get a mainstream job,the experience of Lite-C scripting just wont suffice but if they see a cool demo made in C++ that will
get u noticed and probably hired...unless ofcourse if they are themselves using
GS to make games...Another great C/C++ tutorial site is here :-
http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial.html
get u noticed and probably hired
...unless ofcourse if they are themselves using GS to make games
...Another great C/C++ tutorial site is here :- http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial.html
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/26/08 15:23
Absolutely agree. It will be hard to get a job based on C or Lite-C skills.
I scan job offers often and I realized that they more often now look for Java programmers than C++. But both are a good base to get jobs.
I scan job offers often and I realized that they more often now look for Java programmers than C++. But both are a good base to get jobs.
Posted By: Frederick_Lim
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 03:29
Java programmers is hot because of those Web and enterprise applications.
For game development I can't see Java is really matter, unless your target is Mobile gaming.
I am considering .net language like C# is becoming more and more important now.
For game development I can't see Java is really matter, unless your target is Mobile gaming.
I am considering .net language like C# is becoming more and more important now.
Posted By: zazang
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 06:28
I used to believe that C# will become imp for game dev but I think there is still a lot of legacy code for 3d games in C++...so I think tis still safe to make games in C++...also remember that C# games wont run on other than MS platforms
Posted By: iuselitec
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 07:25
unity3d uses C# and it runs on OSX.
in my opinion the biggest disadvantage of C4 is that it doesn't come with support for a scripting language like unity3d or gamestudio. the node based C4 scripting is so limited that i wouldn't call it scripting.
it's not that i would be totally unable to use C++ (i have some C++ experience) but C++ is an ugly language and no fun to work with. the performance of C++ isn't needed for most gameplay code so why should i use C++ instead of a scripting language.
in my opinion the biggest disadvantage of C4 is that it doesn't come with support for a scripting language like unity3d or gamestudio. the node based C4 scripting is so limited that i wouldn't call it scripting.
it's not that i would be totally unable to use C++ (i have some C++ experience) but C++ is an ugly language and no fun to work with. the performance of C++ isn't needed for most gameplay code so why should i use C++ instead of a scripting language.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 08:13
I absolutely agree with you.
But my view changed in the last years. I dont like C++ and I always talked similiar like you about it. But now I came to a point where I realized that my customers or publishers and distributers will not ask me if I feel comfortable with my scripting language. They just want to see the result. And when it looks bad, renders slow and has no shadows then my project does not get a second glance. The only thing that matters is the result.
So I am open now for new challenges, new languages and new technologies to reach the highest goal with my limited budget. I will not give up just because I dont like a certain programming language.
But my view changed in the last years. I dont like C++ and I always talked similiar like you about it. But now I came to a point where I realized that my customers or publishers and distributers will not ask me if I feel comfortable with my scripting language. They just want to see the result. And when it looks bad, renders slow and has no shadows then my project does not get a second glance. The only thing that matters is the result.
So I am open now for new challenges, new languages and new technologies to reach the highest goal with my limited budget. I will not give up just because I dont like a certain programming language.
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 09:39
this should be moved to tools.
C4 sounds good for artists, and it sounds generally better than most editions of A7, but the lack of a good programming language puts programmers at a disadvantage.
i know programmers can give it a good go with C++, but lite-C with SED puts A7 at an advantage for programmers (especially amateur programmers, but also for advanced programmers).
so the question to MaxF, the thread starter, is: are you a programmer or artist, primarily?
julz
C4 sounds good for artists, and it sounds generally better than most editions of A7, but the lack of a good programming language puts programmers at a disadvantage.
i know programmers can give it a good go with C++, but lite-C with SED puts A7 at an advantage for programmers (especially amateur programmers, but also for advanced programmers).
so the question to MaxF, the thread starter, is: are you a programmer or artist, primarily?
julz
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 11:10
Quote:
but the lack of a good programming language puts programmers at a disadvantage
C++ is a bad language then? I used to believe that for years
But probably you confused programmers with scripters here.
And yes, I fully agree in the case of hobby scripters not willing to learn a programming language. For real programmers this is another situation. They can complain about SDK, interface but not language.
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 11:43
sorry i wasn't so explicit, but i meant an integrated programming language. i assumed that it doesn't come with a C++ compiler but is (relatively) easy to extend via C++. either way lite-C is easier to use and almost as powerful, and very well integrated into A7.
i thought that would've been clear enough from the sentence after the one you quoted.
even "real" programmers, if they were willing to get their hands into lite-C (which is almost easier done than said) would much prefer to use SED and lite-C than using an SDK unless it was really necessary.
julz
i thought that would've been clear enough from the sentence after the one you quoted.
Quote:no.
But probably you confused programmers with scripters here.
even "real" programmers, if they were willing to get their hands into lite-C (which is almost easier done than said) would much prefer to use SED and lite-C than using an SDK unless it was really necessary.
julz
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 11:51
I disagree. As long as SED crashes with debug information and error messages are not handled back to SED you will not feel as comfortable as you feel in a standard development environment.
And dont forget the long compiling times of projects like GameEdit or bigger games. Some projects compiled 20 minutes for a Lite-C script.
Are you familiar with other programming languages? If yes, then you know the difference yourself.
And dont forget the long compiling times of projects like GameEdit or bigger games. Some projects compiled 20 minutes for a Lite-C script.
Are you familiar with other programming languages? If yes, then you know the difference yourself.
Posted By: Frederick_Lim
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 12:45
lite-C is very young, and I bet the long compile time and SED problem will be overcome, otherwise Conitec will out of the game development tools business as this market is getting tougher and tougher.
I firmly believe that for small team, the flexibility and power of scripting language is crucial, you can even use lite-C to write OpenGL and DirectX apps., but still easy to use in C-script style. Other those LUA or Javascript base scripting system can't compete with it. I trend to left those complicated(time consuming) C++ thing for engine developer.
Of course if you have a bigger team and very concrete team role, you may have full time C++ programmer dedicate in game and engine programming, if so A7 maybe never got your attention I think.
BTW I've bought a license of C4 before they raise the price to $200.
I firmly believe that for small team, the flexibility and power of scripting language is crucial, you can even use lite-C to write OpenGL and DirectX apps., but still easy to use in C-script style. Other those LUA or Javascript base scripting system can't compete with it. I trend to left those complicated(time consuming) C++ thing for engine developer.
Of course if you have a bigger team and very concrete team role, you may have full time C++ programmer dedicate in game and engine programming, if so A7 maybe never got your attention I think.
BTW I've bought a license of C4 before they raise the price to $200.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 12:57
To be honest: In the meantime while we talk in the forums you could have learned C++ via tutorials above (given the case you already have some programming knowledge).
Often we are just too lazy and seek for excuses.
Often we are just too lazy and seek for excuses.
Posted By: zazang
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 15:15
Yeah time spent leaning is good...I recently started leaning back C++...If u wanna be a programmer for the most part of ur life then ur safe bet is C++..If u dont believe then go check here the programmer job requirements in the big studios :-
http://www.gamedev.net/directory/careers/default.asp?occupationid=4
That said,my first and last engine love is gamestudio..It is so powerful yet so easy to grasp...I just wait for the day a mainstream game is released in Gamestudio and then all GS programmers get hired in id software jk
http://www.gamedev.net/directory/careers/default.asp?occupationid=4
That said,my first and last engine love is gamestudio..It is so powerful yet so easy to grasp...I just wait for the day a mainstream game is released in Gamestudio and then all GS programmers get hired in id software
jk
Posted By: JibbSmart
Re: C4 Game - 02/27/08 20:32
yes, i do know a couple other programming languages; mainly C++.
even then, A7 is fairly easy to use with other programming languages too.
i'm not trying to say "choose A7 over C4" because i couldn't care less. i'm just trying to be useful for anyone who comes across this thread and this decision by summarising the thread -- great for artists, but A7 is more useful for programmers. if a programmer really wants to dive into the C++ nuts and bolts A7 and C4 both give you good options, but i can't compare them because no one here who uses C4 seems to use it for its C++.
just one other note as i was scanning through this thread again:
julz
Quote:the crashes are only with specific errors, and aside from those the error messages given are generally very useful and quite specific.
As long as SED crashes with debug information and error messages are not handled back to SED you will not feel as comfortable as you feel in a standard development environment.
even then, A7 is fairly easy to use with other programming languages too.
i'm not trying to say "choose A7 over C4" because i couldn't care less. i'm just trying to be useful for anyone who comes across this thread and this decision by summarising the thread -- great for artists, but A7 is more useful for programmers. if a programmer really wants to dive into the C++ nuts and bolts A7 and C4 both give you good options, but i can't compare them because no one here who uses C4 seems to use it for its C++.
just one other note as i was scanning through this thread again:
Quote:lite-C does not force you to use pointers and structs. it does not make anything more difficult than C-script. the only hard part is getting used to the little differences if you were already a proficient C-scripter.
But since Lite-C also forces you to use pointers and structs the gap between Lite-C and C++ became smaller.
julz
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 03/14/08 09:32
I rendered a few of my models and textures in C4 and I like it more and more.
Here is a machine of mine:
and another one:
And here is a test of one of my textures with different rendering modes:
normal-mapping:
parallax-mapping:
horizon-mapping:
Last one is impressive. It is better than parallax. It casts even shadows from materials on materials (self-shadowing) only from height map.
I will do some more experimenting with it. But up to now I am really impressed by the amount of lighting options, the optimized OpenGL shaders and the scene-management.
A quality demo with huge amount of details per zone should be possible there.
Here is a machine of mine:
and another one:
And here is a test of one of my textures with different rendering modes:
normal-mapping:
parallax-mapping:
horizon-mapping:
Last one is impressive. It is better than parallax. It casts even shadows from materials on materials (self-shadowing) only from height map.
I will do some more experimenting with it. But up to now I am really impressed by the amount of lighting options, the optimized OpenGL shaders and the scene-management.
A quality demo with huge amount of details per zone should be possible there.
Posted By: broozar
Re: C4 Game - 03/14/08 17:09
the last pic is incredible, indeed, you can almost feel the structure of the box. never heard about horizon mapping, though, something i must have missed.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 03/15/08 08:29
http://research.microsoft.com/~cohen/bs.pdf
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7126602.html
And even an old pdf from siggraph 2005 / ATI mentions horizon mapping among many other techniques:
http://ati.amd.com/developer/SIGGRAPH05/Tatarchuk-ParallaxOcclusionMapping-Sketch-print.pdf
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7126602.html
And even an old pdf from siggraph 2005 / ATI mentions horizon mapping among many other techniques:
http://ati.amd.com/developer/SIGGRAPH05/Tatarchuk-ParallaxOcclusionMapping-Sketch-print.pdf
Posted By: Why_Do_I_Die
Re: C4 Game - 03/15/08 09:58
What are your FPS Frank ? Images do look pretty impressive.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 03/21/08 10:37
Why_Do_I_Die:
I am afraid I cannot answer this sufficiently. Up to now I always had fps at my monitor frequency. So I think I did not produce any heavy FPS hungry scenes so far. But I will do in the future.
I checked another of my machines in C4. I tweaked the amount of light reflections a bit more this time with some micro-facet options of the shader. Very interesting stuff. It is really fun because you can do it in the material editor and see changes in real-time in your scene:
I am afraid I cannot answer this sufficiently. Up to now I always had fps at my monitor frequency. So I think I did not produce any heavy FPS hungry scenes so far. But I will do in the future.
I checked another of my machines in C4. I tweaked the amount of light reflections a bit more this time with some micro-facet options of the shader. Very interesting stuff. It is really fun because you can do it in the material editor and see changes in real-time in your scene:
Posted By: Machinery_Frank
Re: C4 Game - 03/21/08 19:28
A tree with normal-mapping, shadow and alpha-test for transparency:
