Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ?

Posted By: dracula

Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/05/08 19:28

Daz3D v2, TrueSpace 7 (yes '7') and Wings3D are all free.
I have played with Wings3D and it seems quite easy to use, I like it. I used TrueSpace 3 about 5 years ago but found it odd (and they keep emailing me to this day). Daz3D, I know nothing about but it does have some link with Carrara which I also played with a few years ago and found easy to use.
I have used Blender and can't make too much progress. It's probably me as everyone else says it's great ..... arh well
I haven't downloaded The first two yet, only Wings3D.

Which one should I learn for games modelling ?

Thanks
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/05/08 19:46

I havent used any of them but from what i've heard around different game design forums, wings might be your best bet...


personally I say you should just keep trying with blender :P
Posted By: Pappenheimer

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/05/08 20:41

In case you follow lostclimate's advice, we could start a thread for collecting our newest discoveries of the interface! wink

I started to write a text file with the most important functions. This helped me a lot!

Quote:
start blender

to split window in two:
click upper edge of scene view lmb with alt hold click 'Split Area'

to choose uv-map for that view:
place mouse pointer in right area hold shift and press F10

to add an image:
click button 'Image' in the lower bar of the area, choose settings f.i. 1024x1024

to load model from MED:
(export as fbx, import into milkshape(middle part of format list), export as obj(middlepart of format list),importing in blender (next to last format in list))
(after exporting a frame as 3ds in MED)

to look around the model:
click view in the lower bar of the area, select 'local view', then press the Num button of the Num keys to activate the num buttons, use them to circle around the model

to select a model to uv-map:
select 'Edit Mode' in lower tool bar, click 'Select' choose 'Select/Deselect All',

to uv-map a model:
with mouse pointer in the scene area click 'u', choose uv-map

to cut the model's skin (make seams):
click edge button in lower bar, click b while mouse pointer in view, right-click at an edge, hold shift and right-click the next edge and so on, click ctrl+e, choose mark seam, select all(means click 'Select' 'Select/Deselect All' two times), uv-map again

to bake a shadow on the image of the map:
click 'Render' on the upper main bar, choose 'Bake Render Meshes', choose 'Ambient Occlusion'

You need Mesh Tools, Modifiers, Multires, Subdivide, Catmull-Clark

Or

Open world panel which is needed to work with approximate Ambient Occlusion

F8 opens World Panel

F9 opens Multires Modifiers etc.

Values that give a good result with pokedino(low res animal):

Correction:0.9 Error: 0.25 Use Falloff Strength: 9.08
Add, Plain, Energy: 1 (Both instead of Add adds the light; good for environment lighting, but you should subdivide befor to get rid of the edges)

after uv-mapping it, switch in object mode; to see the uv-map you need to choose edit mode again


There is a 'view selected' under 'view' to move the camera around the wished position

How to paint on model and on texture image:

near image button choose/open image, if different image: Image -> Reload

Enable drawing on texture:
Image -> check Texture Painting

Enable drawing on model:
Change Object Mode to Texture Paint
Change Draw Type (field at the right of Object Mode etc.) depending your needs: Solid f.i. is better for seeing the shape of the model's surface

move image with alt hold(lower button of stylus of tablet) and left mouse button

move 3d view with alt hold and left mouse button

zoom with mouse wheel

choose colour, if it is already available in texture, with right mouse buttion, draw it with left mouse button

paint on model with small brush to mark certain places on the texture, drawing isn't too reliable in case you don't want a certain unreliable style

best brush to draw on a 1024x1024 Texture:
RGB 173 86 27, opacity:0.13, Size 5, Falloff 0.29, Spacing 10.
enable pressure for tablet of opacity only

Posted By: jimc74

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/05/08 20:45

I am not really great at 3d, but
I have been using Wings3d for a while, and
it is amazing. People say that the workflow
is quicker than most (some people prefer certain
modeling over the expensive modeling because they
can do everything quick).

Blender can do a lot more, though, so maybe start out
with Wings (much easier to use), and then switch to Blender.
Blender has radiosity baking, polygon reduction, a tree generator
(seperate), FBX level export, and more.

Truespace I don't know much about, but Blender is constantly
imporoving without a charge (so in the long run, Blender
might be a better bet).

I am not a professional, but hopefully what I said could help.

-Jim
Posted By: Kasey_Dee

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/05/08 23:00

I do not think you can use any daz products for commercial usage if you plan on going commercial. I know Daz sends email about their pre made models as I am terrible at human characters and wanted to inquire for purchase and usage in a commercial game.

Unless you are talking about a different daz?
Posted By: DC9

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 00:32

My understanding of Daz is that it's more of a pose and render tool. Models are created using Carrara, Hexagon, or Bryce. I tried Carrara and Bryce and wasn't comfortable with them. I still have Hexagon.

Wings3D seems pretty straight forward although I haven't spent too much time with it.
Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 00:49

Lets see, if I had to choose between Daz 3d, Truespace or Wings, ...I would choose Blender!
Posted By: dracula

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 06:48

Thanks for the input. I shall start with Wings3D and see if we can use Blender alongside it later.

There are two types of people in the world:
those that love Blender and those that hate it. (I am assuming everyone in the world has used Blender)

Cheers

Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 07:49

Wings 3D is a pure modeler. You can model with it, you can texture with it.

Daz 3D is more or less a 3D showroom with some limited animation posibilities. You can pose your scene.

trueSpace is a fully functional 3D Render and animation software. You can model, texturize, rig, animate and render your stuff. All the involved steps.

Not really a choice between a pure modeler or a 3D showroom and the full package wink

Blender is a fully functional 3D render and animation software too. But they unfortunately forgot to add a human interface ... :P
Posted By: jimc74

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 09:03

@tiles: just out of curiosity, aside from the Blender interface,
in what ways is TrueSpace better?
(I went to the TrueSpace site, and since I am not a great
3d modeler, I couldn't see how it is). A free $600 modeling
software sounds awesome, though.
Posted By: ventilator

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 09:32

there are at least as many people who find the truespace gui horrible and unusable as there are people who think the same about the gui of blender. i would try both and see which fits you more. smile
Posted By: Wicht

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 09:48

I started with gameSpace and trueSpace. The GUI is not the problem. The problems are rigging and animation. Dont do this with trueSpace (or gameSpace). It's the hell.

If you dont want to pay for a modeling package then use blender. And a GUI is always a question of learning.
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 09:52

Well, Blender has some features that trueSpace lacks of. Like fluid simulation. And Blender lacks of features that trueSpace has. N-Gons for example. In the end featurewise Blender may even have more than trueSpace. But what's the best feature worth when you cannot reach it because the UI doesn't let you? And who needs a fluid simulation for low poly game content? Featurestuff is all about if you need it or not. And i don't miss anything, featurewise.

The main issue for me is clearly the interface though. trueSpace is highly customizable. Blender not. It misses a working GUI, it has fixed hotkeys instead. I learn the first 10 hot keys. And when i learn the eleventh hotkey i have forgotten the first one.

I am a very visual person. Gimme an icon and i will remember for what it was. Gimme hotkeys and i will always need to check which hot key was what. Searching what hot key is what costs lots of time. Especially with double and triple combinations as it happens in Blender. Close to fourhundret features are hotkeyed when i remember right. Which means close to fourhundret hotkeys that you need to know. Which costs lots of time to learn.

Hotkeys are also slower to me compared to a button driven interface. Because i always need to look down to the keyboard. And that breaks my workflow.

Not to forget that my neck starts to pain after ten minutes working with just hotkeys.

Don't get me wrong. I also love hotkeys, and i have also setup some hotkeys in TS. But just hotkeys is too much for me. A just hotkey driven UI might not be this bad when you just use one software. But i use lots of software. And then a GUI is a gods gift wink
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 09:53

Quote:
I started with gameSpace and trueSpace. The GUI is not the problem. The problems are rigging and animation. Dont do this with trueSpace (or gameSpace). It's the hell.


That was the past. The new bones system is very powerful and easy to handle.
Posted By: ventilator

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 10:08

you don't have to remember 400 hotkeys. most of blender's functionality is also accessible per menus and you will learn the hotkeys for the functions you currently need the most automatically. there also is a system behind the hotkeys. for example ctrl is always for creating something (ctrl-p -> create parent relationship) and alt always for deleting something (alt-p -> remove parent relationship).

i agree that it's a disadvantage that you can't redefine hotkeys but this will be fixed soon. after siggraph they will continue to work on 2.5.

you are much faster by using the keyboard and the mouse at the same time and that's why almost every 3d program is set up for working like that. if you don't like this way of working it's great that alternatives like truespace exist.

...
http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info.php?products_id=99
http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info.php?products_id=105
by the way, you will find the torrents of those two training dvds now (look with google). they aren't step-by-step tutorials for absolute beginners though. it's more a looking over the shoulder of experienced blender users thing.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 10:34

Originally Posted By: Tiles
Quote:
I started with gameSpace and trueSpace. The GUI is not the problem. The problems are rigging and animation. Dont do this with trueSpace (or gameSpace). It's the hell.


That was the past. The new bones system is very powerful and easy to handle.


So you say it is stable now? No more crashes during animation? No more crashings when I use chamfer tool or similar?

I used to work with Truespace / Gamespace like Wicht did. And both of us changed to Lightwave later. TS is a fast modeler after you learned the icons. But it takes time to learn them. You need the same time to learn Lightwave, XSI or Blender. I can tell you that learning Bodypaint or ZBrush is even harder than learning Blender.

These tools are complex, sophisticated and powerful. You really have to read manuals and tutorials otherwise you are lost. The alternative is MED and I am sure that a beginner has much problems there too if he decides to not read the manual.

All these tools have advantages and disadvantages but it makes no sense to beat one tool down while praising another one. The only important point here is to use legal software, learn it well and then make good art with it. Dont use pirated tools, they will not make a better artist. You still have to learn a lot about architecture, anatomy, tricks and workarounds. Becoming a good artist is much harder than becoming a programmer. You have to learn much more tools and gather a lot of experience and knowledge for that.

So just pick up any tool of your choice and start learning. It will take you several years from now and it will never stop wink
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 11:09

Quote:
you don't have to remember 400 hotkeys. most of blender's functionality is also accessible per menus and you will learn the hotkeys for the functions you currently need the most automatically.


Okay, let's say 50. Still too much.

Ah, the menu. Right. There are indeed buttons. I have spent two days with googling and reading through tutorials and whatelse just to find out that the menu item i search just appears when i am in a special mode. Now go figure laugh

I try since years to find my way into Blender. I fail at the simplest things because i don't find the tools. The UI is simply not made for me smile

Quote:
you are much faster by using the keyboard and the mouse at the same time


That's a myth in my opinion. You are fastest when you are comfortable with your UI. No matter if hotkey driven or button driven. Well, that said, and with a fully customizable interface like in TS, for me personally the fastest method is a mix of both.

The real reason why Blender misses a GUI is that a GUI needs lots of development time. Time that the Devs of Blender have spent to the tools instead. I remember an article where a better GUI was promised. Was around 2002 ...

Another reason is that the GUI would increase the size of Blender. With just hotkeys Blender is pretty slim.

Fact is, it slows me down and breaks my workflow to work just with hotkeys. I have to look away from the screen down at the keyboard. I have most of the times to use both hands to access the hotkeys. My neck starts to pain after ten minutes. And i don't even count the time you need to find out and learn the hotkeys. Personal experience smile

The biggest problem with just hotkeys is that you don't see the feature. With buttons you have an icon or even the name of the tool. And you know there must be a feature behind. In Blender you don't have this visual hint. And that makes the learning curve very hard. Blender is the opposite of intuitive.

Quote:
if you don't like this way of working it's great that alternatives like truespace exist.


It's great that Blender exists. It was the only fully featured useful 3D alternative before trueSpace became freeware. And it is very powerful. I just wish its interface would be a bit more user friendly so that also normal users are able to reach the powerful features smile
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 11:25

Quote:
So you say it is stable now? No more crashes during animation? No more crashings when I use chamfer tool or similar?


There are still lots of issues, unfortunately. TS is still in transition from the old architecture to the new one. So bugs are still there and crashes still happens. But shouldn't happen at the most used tools. Haven't had a single crash at one of the modeling tools so far smile

Quote:
So just pick up any tool of your choice and start learning. It will take you several years from now and it will never stop wink


Yeah, you never stop learning, no matter with which software smile
Posted By: ventilator

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 11:38

blender has a gui. it's no command line tool. smile

the reason why everything is hard coded in blender's gui is that it started as an inhouse tool and the users sat directly next to the coders and told them what hotkeys and gui they want. the coders fullfilled their wishes in the fastest way (hard coded) and didn't think of ever releasing blender into the wild.

this was an oversight and changing this now means refactoring hundreds of thousands lines of code which is no fun to do especially for the blender coders who only work on it in their free time. it's more fun to work on shiny new features.

3d work on a computer isn't intuitive and blender for sure isn't harder to learn than the complex beasts like maya or houdini which i learned at university.

i also prefer [hard to learn but easy to use] to [easy to learn but hard to use].

Quote:
Well, that said, for me personally the fastest method is a mix of both.
i use a mix of both too but more like 80% hotkeys and 20% gui buttons. constantly having to move and aim your mouse to different gui elements on the screen most of the time is much slower than using your left hand to press some keys on the keyboard and leaving the mouse where it is needed for modeling or animating.
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 11:52

Quote:
blender has a gui. it's no command line tool. smile


Agreed. But you know what i mean wink

Quote:
i use a mix of both too but more like 80% hotkeys and 20% gui buttons.


Mine is more 10% hotkeys and 90% GUI buttons smile
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 12:03

Originally Posted By: Tiles
Mine is more 10% hotkeys and 90% GUI buttons smile


This is standard if you begin to learn a new tool. But after really working on a lot of models and projects it will turn around to 90% hotkeys. And believe me: It is much fun if I can work that way in Lightwave. I rarely have to move my mouse away from my object and I just work, no matter if I do sizing, rotating or extending the geometry it just happens with the same speed as my brain thinks about it.

It would be a big show stopper if I had to go into several menus or pressing any buttons.

If you watch some modelling-tutorials then you will realize that most of the professionals never click any button. They just model and you have to guess how they activated this function. But fortunately they often tell you what hotkey they pressed.

This is how you work if you really work with a tool. You will be more and more efficient. And to be honest: If someone writes a lot in a word processor he / she does just the same: forgetting about menus - using hotkeys.
Posted By: dracula

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 12:34

What I didn't say in my original post is that I have to actually teach 3D modelling to novice students. I teach programming and I have been asked to look at Games Design. This is why I have been busy asking loads of questions etc etc. I DO like Blender in some ways, but I think teaching it would be tricky. I mean those menus at the bottom look quite intimidating and the whole interface is something that is not too quick to aquire. By contrast, I have very quickly picked up how to use Wings3D. We will use Blender, but not initially. The students will be actually be given a choice. Initial teaching could be with Wings3D, its so easy to use. I have contacted Calagari (Truespace folks) to see if we could use Truespace 7 on college PCs. Again, we could use several packages. The students will not become pro-modellers but they do need to be able to build models and animate them in a game.

Thanks
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 14:51

sorry for the thread hijack but

Quote:
I can tell you that learning Bodypaint or ZBrush


really? for me, when I downloaded the zbrush demo i was up and running and sculpting my hi poly models in a matter of minutes, of course I dont know the intimate details, but I know enough of what is need for game design.
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 17:20

Quote:
This is standard if you begin to learn a new tool.


Wouldn't call myself a beginner at trueSpace after ten years and hundrets of modeled, textured, riggend, animated and rendered sprites and characters wink

Quote:
It would be a big show stopper if I had to go into several menus or pressing any buttons.


That would drive me crazy too. And does with the Blender button menu.

And here comes customization in handy. I have all my most used buttons laid out besides the workspace. Just a short mouse movement and one mouse click. No searching in sub menus. Ways faster than releasing the mouse, looking away from the screen, look which key to press, pressing the hotkey, then grabbing the mouse again. Ways faster. And my neck doesn't hurt in the evening smile

The good thing at trueSpace is that you can do both. You can use buttons with icons or text, and you can use hotkeys. And you can highly customize the windows and toolbars layout, you can set it up to your favourite useage.

Quote:
If you watch some modelling-tutorials then you will realize that most of the professionals never click any button.


I overread the underlying line that says that non hotkey users are always non professional and go on with ... grin

Mmh, modeling tutorials in hotkey driven interfaces rarely have mouse clicks involved :P

Pros looks for their own special workflow. They test around for the fastest way and best solution permanently. Customized workflow is mainly based at own experience, rarely if a tool is cool or a workflow uncool.

"Professional", hmm. That's one of the biggest misunderstandings here i guess. 3DGS is mainly a hobbytool. Blender is mainly a hobbytool. trueSpace is mainly a hobbytool. This here is a big hobby scene. There are surely pros around here like you too. But most are hobbyists.

I use a tool as a tool. When it does the job it's good enough. Blender doesn't do the job for me. I battle more with the UI than anything else. trueSpace does the job. That easy smile
Posted By: NITRO777

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 17:37

Quote:
What I didn't say in my original post is that I have to actually teach 3D modelling to novice students.
But if you ever get to the position where you buy the systems and maintain the networks and OS I think you would be better with Blender on linux machines. Its a much more affordable way to go. Considering you can buy or build systems for around $400.00 that run blender fine, why pay an additional $200 for a windows OS on top of that...but I dont know you or your systems, Im just throwing that out there. You can also set up a small render network with Blender. (Or a very large network for that matter)

If you are teaching people then you need to consider the future also. Blender is in the middle of a constant software lifecycle whereas Wings 3d seems to have become stagnant and Truespace I dont know much about, but I seriously question why they would all of a sudden give it away for free.

Blender development seems to have no end in sight, and more and more people are getting interested in it. Its very important that you pick software that has a healthy development cycle.

You get used to the interface, just like anything else.
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 17:48

Quote:
Truespace I dont know much about, but I seriously question why they would all of a sudden give it away for free.


Easy story. Caligari is now part of Microsoft. And trueSpace became the official 3D software to create content for Virtual Earth. TS 7.6 is in the middle of transition to the new architecture, which will be finished with TS8.
Posted By: Wicht

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 18:20

@Tiles: The important thing is that YOU can work with Caligari's GUI. If you feel comfortable with... it's ok. The only thing i dont like are the too colorful buttons. I like Lightwave's grey-style much more.

But there is one important thing you have to keep in mind: The features and the costs. If you have only a small amount of "available" applications, the UI moves more and more to the background.

Example: A user has not enough money to buy 3ds max, maya, lightwave and so on. trueSpace and Blender are free. He likes Caligari's UI much more but he needs the import/export-capabilities of Blender. What's his choice?

What i want to say is: The UI is not a important aspect. It's only a question of learning.
Posted By: Wicht

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/06/08 18:30

Fortunately i had the money to buy Lightwave. Otherwise i would learn Blender. No matter if i like Blender's UI or not.
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/07/08 07:45

Quote:

He likes Caligari's UI much more but he needs the import/export-capabilities of Blender. What's his choice?


Work in TS, export to Blender, then export to the needed format. That's what i mainly use Blender for. Yes, i know. Animation is a very special chapter. Which hopefully will be solved in the very near future when the SDK is out.

Or wait for the SDK to become available. A thing of a few weeks. They are at polishing at the moment. Then write your own or wait a bit more for the im- and exporters to appear. And they will appear. I know that a plugin is in development that can im- and export FBX for example.

Quote:
What i want to say is: The UI is not a important aspect. It's only a question of learning.


My whole experience teaches me the opposite. An edgeloop is an edgeloop, no matter in which 3D software. Functionality is functionality. It's the UI that makes the difference. You can fascinate lots of users with a good one. You can scare lots of users away with a bad UI though. Counts for applications. And counts even more for games wink
Posted By: AndyUK

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/08/08 23:14

If I was to be given a choice of tools, including commercial tools then I would probably go for Cinema4d as the interface is very nice as is the overall workflow.

I currently use 3dsmax but that is because I have to as this is what we are using at University.

If I were to choose between Truespace and Blender then i would probably go down the Blender route as I wouldn't be too sure as to what Microsoft will do with TS in the future. I personally think the UI on both applications could be greatly improved.
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/09/08 07:29

Quote:
I personally think the UI on both applications could be greatly improved.


Are you sure that you don't mix it with the old versions up to 6.6? TS 7, better said the workspace side, is highly customizable.
Posted By: dracula

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/09/08 19:20

and finally ....

Wings3D is excellent for starting off with. TruesSpace 7.6 is free and you can use it on college networks (they need to know a few things though) but the interface is "interesting" to say the least. You will require sun glasses.

I can do fairly basic stuff with Blender but Wings3D is definately the place to start. It is so easy yet powerful. There's no animation, which is a pity.

Daz3D is free because they want you to buy their models. It come with a naked women who gradually gets clothed in pants and a sports bra - ready to play volleyball. My wife walked in as I was looking at it and it took some explaining ......
Posted By: DC9

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/10/08 01:26

LOL. "It's for school ... really"
Posted By: MadMark

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/15/08 00:03

Anyone know of an add-on to export TrueSpace to mdl format? Maintaining animations & skin would be a bonus, but not critical.

Mark
Posted By: Tiles

Re: Daz3D, TrueSpace or Wings3D ? - 08/15/08 08:16

Not yet.

What i do for static stuff is to export to OBJ, then load it into Blender and save it to MDL then. You need of course the MDL Plugin for that. This works even better than trying to import the OBJ into MED which nearly always makes trouble.

For Animation we have to wait for the FBX plugin which is in development but not finished yet. I hope it appears in the next few weeks.

I think it's time for an update of the MED. MED cannot read the newest X with its DeclData blocks. Which results in white meshes with destroyed UV mapping. A shame, because the animation arrives. And while at it, Collada support would also be nice grin

Meanwhile, there is a working art pipeline through Ultimate Unwrap. But UU is unfortunately not freeware. And so i would wait a bit for the FBX plugin smile
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