Truespace is gone

http://www.caligari.com/News/news_200905/LetterFromTheFounder.html

It was inevitable, and perhaps overdue, but still a shame to see another product of the Amiga-era disappear.

wow really we are in a mundial crisis
need to back to the farms and fishing

Well another bites the dust, shame!

but if you want a copy of the free version (nothing else with it because I cant be bothered downloading them) I can upload it, it just wont have any support material with it and without your own user info you ned to rely on public good will to get the them.

Not a real problem.

Go for Blender : alwas evolving, open source , free,
adn really complete and powerfull.

No!!

Better don't even think about this. trueSpace is still owned by Microsoft. Mirroring not allowed.

trueSpace is still available for download. I heard rumours about torrents when the page vanishes. But time will tell.



The problem here is Blender though. It evolves at the wrong ends since years. Still no human UI ...

Not everybody is made to work with Blender. Nuff said.

Well, the trueSpace UI is a class of its own, too.

If there is a big community they can try to get it as open source project. The blender community knows what I am talking about, because they did this already some years ago.

For the heck of it, I installed Truespace 7.6 yesterday and the UI almost made my eyes bleed. It's so ironic that the software evolved this way. When it was first introduced on the Amiga, it was incredibly elegant and clean. I'm amazed that anyone at Microsoft could have decided that Truespace would compete effectively with Google SketchUp.

That was no competition. trueSpace is a completely package, including animation. Sketchup is a limited Modeler

But yes, trueSpace is the other extreme to Blender. While Blender is too much hotkeys, tS is too much icons. But i am able to setup 6.6 to work like Blender. Heck, i can even customize the hotkeys! But i could never setup Blender to work like trueSpace

Keep in mind that tS 7.6 is made of two softwares. That's why it's a bit confusing to learn. You need to learn both sides, Modeler and Workspace. Modeler is in fact trueSpace6.6 as a big plugin, while the Workspace is the new tS.

The Workspace was a clear step towards a less iconized UI. That's why there is the Stack. You can turn all toolbars into pure text. And you can customize the UI in lots of ways.

Microsoft was and is more interested in the underlying architecture than in trueSpace itself. And i guess we will find this architecture in some future 3D appps ...

It evolves at the wrong ends since years

Well , Blender evolves in the best direction possible in fact
It as retopology paint : not all tools have that, normal mapping from higt mesh to low generation , sculpting etc ...
For a free tool : it's outstanding.

I recognise, use it ask you to follow all tutorials you can find. I don't use any shortcuts, only the buttons of interface.
The only key shortuts i use are :
Extrude, Loop Select and Loop Cut , the rest i use context menu or buttons.
The problem is that the menu is confusing, after years using it, i even sometimes search how to bring back the UV menu

But it has all yu need and even more.

Now i use Silo for the modeling phase , with a pen tablet , and some good shortcuts (select and cut loop) you modelise at incredible speed !
For 99 or 150$ it's a relly valuable tool also.

"I talked to many people at Virtual Earth group and I am convinced that the technical team behind Virtual Earth has a significant, long-term commitment to the 3D Web." Roman Ormandy 02-06-2008

To bad Ormandy couldn't stay in the virtual world, I think the real world just bit him in the butt. I hope he got his money up front.

I do not know that truespace is gone though, they just aren't supporting it. Microsoft will either resurrect it when they see a need (profit) or they are trying to sell it. Most likely Ormandys latest post is a call for buyers.

My main problem with truespace was that on my computers it was a bit of a resource hog.

Why does every modeling thread become an argument about blender. To the blender haters I would paraphrase Jack sparrow " It may be the worst modeling software you have ever heard of... but you have heard of it." To the blender lovers out there I would just say stop getting aroused in public... its illegal in most locations.

Not just at yours

There are three software running when you start tS. Modeler, which is the old 6.6. Workspace, which is the new tS. And a bridge to connect what is unconnectable. The old architecture with the new one.

Turning off the bridge can help a bunch here

Tiles, thanks for your two informative posts. I was not aware of the transition plans for the software. Sorry we didn't see it come to pass.

[EDIT]
Interesting post from another Truespace user at CG Society: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5879233&postcount=27

Yes, is an interesting article. I don't agree with all told points, but he hits the nail here and there

For me trueSpace will still stay my main app, at least for a pretty while. I am comfortable with it. And it does the job

No matter i got what i wanted for free in the end!

I doubt that MS will resurrect trueSpace or sell it. That is just not how MS works. Secondly, trueSpace and its code belongs to MS, so Roman is not looking for a buyer.

What MS typically does is purchase a property like trueSpace because there is something from the app that they want for their own purposes. It could be a little piece of code, for all we know. If they can make additional money from the product itself, that's great. If not, then they tank the product.

As an example, several years ago there was a fantastic vector program called Expression made by a company called Creature House. This vector program was very advanced and, in some ways, had features that made Illustrator look silly. Even more importantly, Creature House was working on a vector animation program that was incredibly advanced called Living Cells. While Living Cells was in beta, MS bought Creature House and all its assets. As a result, the Expression vector application no longer exists. MS was offering it for free for a while.

Apparently MS wanted some of the code from Living Cells and Expression. The result is the Expression suite of tools for web development and Silverlight (which I think has a root in the code of Living Cells).

Most likely Caligari had hit on some interesting code. MS was most likely not too interested in trueSpace itself, even though they did try to use it like Google does Sketchup. MS wanted the code to use/modify for their own purposes. Now that they have it, if the rest of the assets (the actual app and even the team of programmers) aren't able to generate income, then they are ditched.

Now, in the case of the programmers from Creature House, MS kept this small team. As far as I know, they are still working for MS. That means that the Creature House team was (and remains) an asset to MS. That says something about them as programmers. What happened with Roman? Is he with MS still? Or not? And if not, what does that say?

like digital research dos a company (ds/os)
dissapear when ms.dos comming
the power of the money

I Don't even see qhere's the problem. Truespace wahsn't really a good tool. When it was free yeah maybe for studenst and such but I never heard some team in cg industry unsing it.

Just by checking a job board you'll never see an truespace modeler/ animator position which is essential for a tool.

Professionnal are the core of the tool market and Truespace si so far away from maya or 3ds Max. Compare it to latest houdini for example or modo and in term of price or workflow and it's over.

It's a sad thing for indies because it was free but I won't cry over it. I own my version of maya and I'm really happy with it and I4m pretty sure if I ask any person of my team if they ever use truespace, the answer will be no.

You mean as equal as not "really a good tool" as 3D Gamestudio because no professionals really uses it?

The problem was that tS is in the middle of transition from the old core to the new architecture. And got stuck there. At the point where it started to finally become useful. That's the sad part. There is not this much missing to make it finally a "good" tool. A handful really missing features plus the long awaited bugfixes. It once even had VRay as an optional renderer ...



tS is, or better said was used in the industry. But more for stuff like Webdesign.

And you forget about the hobbyists and low budget developers here i would say. That's where trueSpace once had its market. A mid to low priced 3D Package. No wonder it could never compete with the big boys. Compare the price, then come back and compare features.

Max? Out of reach. Around 4000.- from what i know, Maya also around this. Modo 700.-, in reach but still too expensive now that tS is free. Houdini 100 bucks for the limited Apprentice. But Houdini is no modeler, and the fully commercial version is ways out of reach again ...

It's all about the money in the end!


To be honest all i am waiting for is good file format support for the modelers (blender,truspace,silo,carrara and my little mate wings3d) once the file format support is solid as a rock for them i will begin making games!!!!

Better to make software for all rather than the few!


maya and max etc....can die like the dodo and become extinct!!!

Dan is right, I was thinking that microsoft was a normal company that had bought caligari as an asset. But that really hasn't been part of their history. So it is probably unlikely that truespace will ever come back. The idea of it being released as open source is really unlikely.
It appears that the entire Caligari team has been let go but I do not know about Ormandy. So I wonder what that says about 3d on the web. Is microsoft saying that it is not worth the investment?
It is sad to see Truespace go,even though it may not have been as powerful as the big apps. If the smaller apps like truespace or carrarra go out will they still feel a need to improve Maya and the related "big industry" apps?
Here is a link to a statement by Ton over at blendernation. It is interesting but I do not think Truespace becoming open source is going to happen.
http://www.blendernation.com/2009/05/21/truespace-story-ending/

I remember when this last version of Truespace was released commercially that Roman touted a web collaboration feature that looked really cool in demos. It basically allowed two people to work on the same scene remotely. I can't think of another package that allows real-time collaboration. Did that feature work? Perhaps that is the piece that attracted Microsoft?

[EDIT]
It attracted me, until I looked at the retail price at the time and later got to see the interface!

http://verse.blender.org/

i am not sure though if the blender integration still works.

Truespace was free today but when the version 7 comes out it wasn't so don't be like that.

you know that the hobbyist market are nothing compare to cgi industry. There is no point in fighting since cgi industry make millions just with adverts and films. Of course Maya and 3ds Max are really expensive but they still exist because the industry supports them. It is just a matter of money It's sad but because truespace didn't convince university or artist to use it. IF it was any good no matter how low or high was the price people will purchase it or download warez version.

For example if you just do a job as a freelance animator you can earn in a week 1000 1500-ish £. This is good money but you have to invest in exchange to the lastest tool. If you are a taxi driver you'll have to invest in good car to do your job or working in a comapny which already have few.

For indies maybe is out of range but for most of the artist is a necessary investement for making a living.

but I think it's not over for caligari. Maybe they made this decision to recreate something more fitted to our demands, but I'm afraid the price will be higher than truespace.

I may opinion also the company has had his own responsability
I purchased GameSpace from them
I thought it was a good idea at the time
A professional package at a reasonable price ( 600 usd If I remember ) but it was a disaster , full of bugs
Even worse they refused to admit the evidence
I suppose that they disgusted many clients, me for sure

Roman Ormandy, Caligari's founder and ex-CEO, posted on the company's forums that Microsoft has decided to keep the website up and running for the next five months. They also just posted the last beta version of the software, 7.6.1.

The software, training materials and everything else on the site is available for free download. Once you get past the shock of the garish UI, the software really did have a lot of cool features.

http://www.caligari.com/downloads.html

Gamespace was a very special chapter. Caligari tried to do too much at once at that time. And forgot to make the product stable over that.

And yes, Caligari made lots of mistakes then. The Bridge is the most obvious one. I doubt that Roman would do that again, heh. On the other hand, this makes it possible to have both softwares at once, the old tS 6.6 and the new core. Curse and blessing at the same time. Because what the Workspace lacks can be done in Modeler most of the times.

Suede, you are right. But not in all points. As i am right too, but not in all points. Again you forget the hobbyists. Not all CG is done by professionals. I don't have the money for your named softwares. And will never have.

I still hope that the tS development continues. It was and is on a good track. The new core has enough power to be state of the art once all tools are in place. It is just not finished yet.

I bought it cheaper (maybe half of the price you mentioned) but experienced a similar story.

I liked the way of modeling very much. It worked great and fast. I could do a lot with these little gizmos. But uv-mapping was bad and animation crashed it a lot. There was no way for texture baking and baking or rendering normal maps was not possible. So I left it and switched to Lightwave at that time. And recently I added Modo. Both are working great together.

When I posted any questions and problems in the Caligari forums then the posts just got ignored. It always felt like a dead and no more supported tool. I was happy to make the switch.

Even a free software will not help in this matter. I need a tool that simply works.

just an example , GameSpace supplied a tool named Puppeter for animations
It crashed any minute or two
I was replied something like " this tool has been developed by a third party , ask them "
I said, sorry my friend, it is integrated in your product you are responsible also for it
No answer
Some time later I got an email from an other guy to apologize for his collegue's previous answer

Yes. Stability problems in old trueSpace up to 6.6 are legend. That's why the advice was save often, and don't forget to save often. And because of exactly these kind of problems the guys started to develop the new core, trueSpace 7. Devs stated more than once that the old code busted at the seams. Means they knew about the stability problems very well, but couldn't really fix them. Or better said the fix is the new tS 7 core ...

Regarding Puppetteer. It IS a third party tool. Even when it came with gameSpace. Means you really would've had to talk to the pupetter makers, not Caligari. It's like moaning towards 3D Gamestudio when IceX makes trouble (no offence, just an example ) ...

This reads interesting. So how does it stand now? Can it do texture baking including lighting and shaders? Can it display spec and normal maps in realtime? Can it render normal maps? Is animation reliable? Is there FK and IK animation? What about particles, physics, soft and hard bodies, fluids?
How is the uv-tool? Is there some kind of automatic pelt-mapping, uv-relaxation, atlas mapping?
What about morph-maps?

Texture baking - no
Spec Maps - yes, depends of used shader
Normal Maps - yes, depends of used shader

Rendering, and with that the shaders, depends of course of used render engine.
Modeler: Lightworks, Virtualight, Dribble. Dribble is a Renderman renderer.
Workspace: Vray (not longer available), Realtime, Kerkythea, Indigo, Yafaray4trueSpace

Make Normal Maps from High Poly to Low Poly mesh - yes, with a plugin ...

Animation - well, depends what you mean with reliable. bones are more stable now than in 7.6 when you mean this. 7.6 was IK1. 7.61 comes with IK2. It has finally arrived with the latest Beta. But there is surely still more than one quirk left. Teething problems. Not enough time to test it all, let alone fix it because of stopped development. I have on the other hand even with 7.6 made a decent walkcycle, and have exported it then to MED. I would label it as working.
Sure there is FK and IK.
Physics yes
Soft Bodies no
No particles so far
Fluids - there is a Fluid Sim Importer by a plugin developer that imports Blender Fluid Simulation
UV Tools still lacks of an useful unwrapping algorythm, UV tools are useful to cleanup the unwrap besides that. Numerical control ...
Not sure what you mean with Morph Maps. Morphing? Morphing is part of Animation, and possible.

For creating lightmaps i use Giles, for baking the textures together i use The Gimp. Both freeware. Unwrapping i do with Roadkill, also freeware, and Ultimate Unwrap. A few bucks.

I see. This looks like a powerful pipeline. It took you probably a long time to learn all these applications and is not very comfortable but in the end you can do a lot this way. And last but not least it was very cheap, almost free of charge.

Well, I bought gamespace long time ago. And the main reason I did this, was texture baking.

There is no way for texture baking in the higher version??

No, unfortunately not. Those kind of tools would've come next to add, now that the basetools are implemented into new core. Really a shame that they stop the baby at this point.

Have any of you ever played with Carrara Pro? Version 6.2 was on a coverdisk for 3D Artist magazine and the upgrade to version 7 is pretty cheap for Daz Platinum Club members.

It renders beautifully, but you need a 3rd party plugin to bake textures. In any event, I bring it up because at first glance it is the absolute opposite of Truespace's cluttered workspace. Carrara's interface is very streamlined. Thoughts?

It does not export FBX animations, anyway
For modern engines this is a big issue

Yes its all about the Pipeline!!!!! now where is my ecstasy....testing testing...

Ever try going from Carrara to Daz Studio to FBX?

Does that pipeline work....or is it riddled with bugs too?

I don't know; that's why I ask! I'd like to save myself countless hours of fruitless experimentation. Spotty FBX implementation is the bane of my existance!

I keep hoping for the day when 3D software developers would include their own game engines (like Blender tried to do), so you could stay in one environment. But knowing how that works, they'd probably cobble it together and attach something just as kludgey.

well i guess we must wait or ask at the daz forum???

Same here
Carrara 7 Pro export the geometry only
The point is that animations seem to be the most critical issue
UltimeUnwrap3d for example can export static models but animations are messy
An alternative could be Messiah 4.0 , they are developing also the FBX exporter

I can not really understand why all the new engines support FBX or Collada only
Ok in principle it may be reasonable but they should be aware of these problems

I had to quit, for the time being ; with Unity3d
Ecxellent engine but it is of no use if you can not import models

Huh? No problems here. I export as FBX, then import in MED. All intact.

Sometime it works also for me but I can not rely upon it
Did anybody else try to export FBX animated file via UltimeUnwrap3d ?

Should it work it would obviously be the ideal solution for amateurs

My experience is

I rig and animate a 3d character in Fragmotion
I import it in MilShape and I run the animation , ok
I import it in UltimeUnwrap3d and I run the animation , again ok
I export the file in FBX format and then I import it again in Ultime
Normally a disaster, sometimes it works
Mesh and textures are in general ok but the movement of the bones have little to do with the original animation

why not just export from fragmotion? directly as mdl7? works fine for anmiations.

Because I want to use Unity3d

However I start thinking that the old dear 3dgs is still the best solution

That's really odd. Never ran into your described problems. Hmm, could be a settings thingie. But could also be a bug somewhere. Have you thought of sending one of these models in qestion to Brad? I think he would be happy to fix your issue. And other UU3D users can just benefit from it

I sent Brad one of my model , just now
Waiting for his answer
I tried all the possible settings , no results

However I suppose that many members own UltimeUnrap3d
May anybody else make a simple test

Just load an animated file ( not that simple if possible, mine has abt 6000 tris and 60 bones ) in Ultime, export in FBX format and reload it again in Ultime
See what happen

Thanks in advance

As told, for me it works without problems. My example had 2700 tris and 91 bones.

Another thought, Brad releases new versions every now and then. And sometimes this new versions needs newer versions for the im- and exporter plugins too. I needed for example to redownload FBX plugin to show FBX in the dialogues again when i installed current UU3D V3.16. Maybe you have such an outdated plugin version that doesn't longer work proper with your UU3D version. Worth a look

nope I used the last Unwrap 3.16 and the last FBX plug in version

I got the answer from Brad
FBX use Euler angles only
If some rotational keys of your model are close to +- 180 °, you can expect problems

So it's always a gamble when using FBX? Odd

Thanks for telling

I reset to zero all the rotational keys ( MilkShape provides a zero joint tool )
so I managed to have some animations working also in FBX
I have of course to throw away hundreds animation sequences which I created in years time
Not a nice situation

Indeed. I feel with you