unity 3

unity 3 just got released!

http://unity3d.com/

Looking forward giving it a try
I still plan on making a iPhone game with it someday.

Well to really apppreciate Unity 3 , you'll need the Pro version with real time shadows and deffered shading, lightmapping with global illumination !

A great feature is publishing :
Unity 3 publishing
You can make some low poly game or casual , and deploy it on PC/MAc or
Iphone/Android !

I target also Iphone DEV : for Iphone , Android, Shiva 3D engine can be a good alternative !

i actually stop using gamestudio after I read the huge forum topic about how much better unity was over gamestudio that was posted almost a year ago on here.

It is not new, but it's first time i play it !
This is a playable level; i don't know if it is Unity 3 or not,
but it runs in a Web Browser really well.
It has Depth of Field, 3rd person Camera and zoom, Next Gen soldier, AAA textures and level with vegetation , water ...

Unity Web Demo

Unity holds all that level and characters really well.

yes it's new. That is the demo game that unity used to advertise unity 3 with videos.

I purchased the whole pack except Assets server. I download the iPhone examples and publish to Android platform without change a single line of code, and running excellent on Nexus One.

Do you plan to release some game on Iphone or Nexus ?

It is not only the better features, the better forum, the better artwork, the better concept - unity of course is a very stable engine. And the community is very active. I miss this frequency in the gs forum since years. Yes, I payed 300bugs for the A8 update - but I buy the unity3 pro for sure the next few weeks. And you can definetly say - the community of unity is more developer oriented in compare with the gs members.

In fact the showcase forum of Unity is very active and very different, lot of people who buy Unity is people who target to really create and sell a game; with 3DGS there is lot more low level programmers asking for code features for each beta
to have fun and toying/experimenting code.

And lot of things in showcase of Unity are Iphone games
in developement going to be sold !

But ask yourself before buying what you want do do :
- Iphone game : yes, Unity is one way but expensivce for Pro features (shiva is another way with cheaper Android support)
- Little game using Next Gen on PC : why not, do you have solid design docs?
- Big Next Gen game : Do you have a solid team, design docs,
level design, ennemy design, gameplay design ?

A8 even with not trivial tools, old workflow for
arcade, casual , little games it's a cheaper and very good alternative.

Lof of people think :
"Whaooo Unity3 , deferred shading, etc ..."
But will they be able to create gorgeous next gen game and all the 3D art ?
Why asking last gen shaders, power, if you can't produce a next gen 3D art level and ennemies with all AI, animations, effects ...
Even if you make a team, the distant team mates will need
Unity, and working with distant people is not trivial.
I also worked on a team some little time ago on a free mmo with Unity, even that showed me that having different people that are distant make things longer and sometimes aborted, caus any member team have their own life always changing.
It'not easy to motivate people, to keep them in even more
for quality work.
Sometimes , the best is to pay some 3D artists or buy some 3D art packages that you'll customize by modifying textures.

Yes indeed Unity 3 is AAA engine , Unity Iphone is another part of the engine, not the same thing.

So can you produce good Next Gen 3D art to use Unity 3 ?

Just my point of view.

Gamestudio is a nice playground, specially the majority of all members. The minority are hardcore developers and a field between are hobby developers. I personally don´t switch to unity and break up with gs. Reason are 3 open projects. But I buy the unity and swim slowly to the other side. Just because I like the sum oft the unity concept and I like the developer oriented workflow.
That was just my opinion. (and... I write this in a very defenisve position... I don´t believe that gs will survive the next 5 years. - and I love my hobby and don´t want to come to close to a no returning point with gs)

i think gamestudio could survive as a small niche product (kind of like blitzbasic or something like that). doing an occasional small update doesn't cost jcl that much.

Right - but gs (will) or has lost the status of a main front engine for the middle and budget market. And I think - this is very hard to come to this point after beeing a member for nearly 10 years.
But everything ends somehow somewhere sometimes...

I think , with increasing technology each year like
SSAO, Deffered shading, surface shaders, new tools and
Torque 3D, Shiva , Unity going strongly fast in development,
users will prefer to buy Unity Pro indeed than A8 Pro.
(I don't talk about Gamecore, it's like a dead engine, showcaes is like dead, even the last post in showcase is from 17 August).

The main difference for example , others tools like Unity,Torque 3D, shiva, gamecore have all integrated in the main world editor (complete terrain editor ,physics, shaders ...) That's the weak point in 3DGS.

The other points that are lacking, is no game browser plungin integrated , and no mobile support like Android, Iphone. That's sad caus there is a big market here, accessible for lot of people (making an iphone doesn't require as work as a next gen game).

I don't think serious people will go to Pro version of A8 it can't compare with Unity Pro.
I think 3DGS will continue to survive in terms of price by selling a unique version at low price like the commercial version for example.

Some points that makes 3DGS solid are :
- For beginners in game coding or kids, using MED instead of a modeler and WED with BSP can be lot more easy for them i think also.
- The documentation and AUM magazines that covers all aspects of coding.

I think A8 needs to showcase its user projects more. I'm surprised at people's excitement over deferred shading in Unity 3, when there have been multiple deferred shading solutions available to A7 users for a long time (I know I made mine more than a year ago).

Similarly, we've seen SSAO all over the forums for a long time (with HeelX's implementation of Crysis's SSAO as the most recent example).

Unity 3 looks great. Don't get me wrong. I just want to say that I really did not enjoy that soldier demo. My internet can be a bit hit-and-miss, which meant I spent a lot of time just waiting for stuff to happen. They gave little indication that stuff was meant to be loading in the background. In the end I got an award for not being hit by any badguys, but it must be impossible for them to actually hit you, because I stood directly in front of them just looking around. In the end it was a half-baked demo that wasn't very impressive at all.

The biggest selling point for Unity in my eyes is its ability to be deployed on just about any platform.

Jibb

Do you have used Unity really, tried to make a game ?
I followed their Tihrd personn tutorial.
The Workflow, is 10 years in advance compared to A8 !!!!!
(I don't mention physics properties, camera panel, apply shaders directly on object properties etc ...., i stop , the list is so long !! )

I have a good internet connection, the soldier demo just runned great, and you need a good PC also.
I hope they'll deliver an installable demo directly on PC instead of Web Browser !

Sorry, but i tried Shade C package with A8, lot of folders,
even following the doc , i didn't succed to make work depth
of field !
Each time the users solutions are complicated , or not completely clear to run, they give a full demo instead
of a simple mesh, with only the code ... well why do you think we don't see any game using these solutions ?
No need, complicated, users that don't have seen it etc ...
Unity 3 performances are boosted , it have even lot more great things to come.

I like A8 (not it's workflow, or tools), but for small game making. If i planned next gen features, or mdeium game (penumbra style game, or some Follout 3 style with terrain)
with detailled 3D art at screen and performance need
indeed i would turn to Unity.

Don't begin to say 3DGS can do it , like in the hold days
people saying 3DGS could do same scenes as Unreal 3 engine !!
some of them even tried to make a 3D scene from a screenshot to prove 3DGS can do it , it maked my day

the difference is, with unity you get well integrated production ready solutions, done by some of the best programmers in the industry.

with gamestudio user contributions most of the time you don't. they aren't reliable. look at the problems with intensex for example.

i didn't like unity's soldier demo either. the artwork somehow has an ugly style. but it's still a lot better than any gamestudio showcase and it shows quite well what unity can do.

Strange to find the artwork an ugly style ?
I talk about the phase where you control the soldier,
terrain with good multi texture, very good destroyed brideg, good vegetation and trees, some good waterfall with water shader, detailled soldier model, some abandonned town with
AAA style textures ...
For me it's good , perhaps the fact to play in window mode
don't show it as it should do ?

For a simple demo, not commercial thing , it's a really good show i think; don't compare this next gen soldier and
the old low poly models given in A8 !
If you find that ugly, i can't imagine how ugly you can find A8 demos !
It's also a question of personnal taste or 3D artist
perception ?

Well i stop here, it was personnal opinions only.
Yes Unity 3 is solid as rock !!

i find minecraft a lot less ugly than the soldier demo for example. this has nothing to do with detail, "next-gen" or "aaa" (man, i hate those stupid terms ).

edit:
i have looked at the soldier demo again. ok, it's especially the intro that is badly done. the rest mostly looks fine.

Don't worry, I've got a good PC. It was just the load times that were killing me.
That assumes a lot about the proficiency of Unity's developers. I'm not saying they're doing a bad job, but working for a big company doesn't make them great programmers. The "integrated" nature of all those effects is my personal issue with Unity -- I'm not saying people shouldn't use it; I just don't like it for myself. These "integrated" effects are what created the need for their weird, ugly, unique shader programming.

Any shader programmer can use HLSL (or Cg, which is essentially the same thing), and can surely pick up shader programming in A7/A8 in an instant.
I haven't tried Shade C. I think people are best off following tutorials and using their own effects. There are a myriad different ways to do DoF, and I personally wouldn't want to use someone else's (whether that's another user, or the engine programmers themselves).

Jibb

EDIT: Obviously I'm very shader-orientated. I just really like shader programming. And it's the one thing people seem to avoid doing themselves.

some of the programmers they have employed are very well known. for example the creator of boo, or some of the best people of the ukrainian demo scene.

i think their shader system is a necessity. if you wanted to cover all the necessary combinations (different shading languages, lighting types,...) on a lower level then you probably couldn't finish any project without at least having one dedicated shader programmer.

http://aras-p.info/blog/

@JulzMighty:

Ok, in fact like lot of people using A8 you like programming, and doing shaders.
But don't forget there are lot of people that are most 3D artists, they prefer to create visual things than coding.
In that part Unity is a lot better for 3D artist.
For my part i find its structure incredibly good.
For shaders, Unity have the common ones, it's very very sufficient !

What is the advantage to code a shader if you don't make a game using it ??

I know A8 people like to code and realise tools, shaders.
But for people targetting game making, and that are more 3D artists, believe me they really prefer to create the game and use common existing and sufficient shaders directly !

Perhaps you would want to say : Well Far Cry editor have lot of panels and things , i don't find it's struture really good ! And i'm not sure Far Cry team is a good team !!

Unity is a solid engine for INDIE and PRO domain !
With Unity it is possible to do all in C# , and you'll can use a professionnal editor from Microsoft , its far away from SED !

If we should dress the list of Unity advantages, it would be pages of them, just browse their description page


It's like any engine, or modeler, you have to do some projects under it, to begin to be at ease with it !
But if you're not at ease with it; no problem don't use it, but don't say , it's not so good.

Well it's not comparison A8 and Unity.
It's Unity features , don't forget !

-selling it
-learning from it
-allure to implement different physical/self-conceived/etc. concepts
-artistic aspects
-fame

all i can say is: lighting lighting lighting

thats gamestudios major flaw, we've been working on scion for a while and noone can give me any bullshit excuse to say gamestudio cant pull of AAA titles, it can, atleast in terms of setting the game up...

ragdolls - fine
physics - fine
good animation - fine
movement - fine
network code - fine

level design - problematic
lighting - ERROR!!

scion froze when we couldnt get a decent level lighting pipeline, all we hear is bake this, bake that, ooo, use models instead of blocks, so on and so forth

workarounds and more workarounds

if i could get a decent level lighting pipeline up then doing a better demo than that unity thing would be a laugh..

all i've been seeking is, basic normal + spec + shadow mapping [dynamic or static] with support for standard PP effects

every passage i look at seems to have a roadblock, lightfrong is looking good but i think its incomplete? no PP effects YET? and i think i read that it uses something like 50skills? LOL yaa..

and boh_havocs shaders have been rather fast but hes been busy lately comming up with the finishing touches

and am yet to find a stable/complete solution, i imported a level into unity and added a few lights and.... i was done, normal maps reacting to lights and all, UN-fckin-BELIEVABLE, something i've been spending months to get right in GS..

now am sure you may all come with suggestions and stuff that i probably havent looked into but am quite sure i have, probably just too lazy to state them all here.. but go ahead..

+1.

However, Gamestudio is mostly oriented for the programmer while Unity is for the graphic whores that don't want to touch the dirty stuff.
I had a lot of problems with Unitys scripting pipeline and I never got anything good working because it just sucked. It was such a pain doing something which wasn't covered inside this crappy editor (yes! The Unity editor sucks. It just sucks so bad that I wish that the guy who did this would die. NOW!).

Sooo... thats my little rant against Unity. All I wish for Gamestudio is a better compiler. Please, Conitec, throw WED, GED, MED etc away. Remove everything from the forecast that isn't a compiler feature and I will buy A8 Pro asap. (But I guess no one else would buy A8 then =/)

Hello

I wonder why shaders are supposed to be a so important stuff
They are just ribbons and whistles
Succesfull Indie games make little use of special effects

gameplay still win and it alwayes will

If so a game programmers hould not spend so much time in shaders unless he target special applications

Every prefabricated , visual solutions are welcome, in my opinion

i am with Sid here. I once joined a little team using unity, editör may be shiny and pretty, but the situation the otherway around in Unity. Level design lighting etc is good and easy but this time you have to workaround stuff in coding part. Then i figured prototyping with unity was not that fast i protoyped stuff in lite-c then gave them flowcharts and algorithm explanations and working lite-c demos, got my money and ran the hell out of there.

First i thought it was because i am more familiar with lite-c and it was not unity's fault, but then i started playing with UDK and figured it was indeed unity's fault.

Great example of this would be Torchlight.
However, the thing that keeps pulling me to unity, is the fact that I can make iPhone games with it real easy...
That said, I wont ever leave GameStudio over any engine, but I might just learn how to use Unity besides GS
It never hurts to have some more general knowledge.

regards,

hmm, we dont all want to make childlike or having to use certain styles because we need to work around the engine, am not aiming for nextGen, am aiming for acceptable and blocks with flat textures just wont cut it

Could you both or one of you explain this further?
The scripting part would be rather important for me. Let's say I would like to write my own pathfinding algorithm in it. Do you think that this could be problematic?


Other than that it looks promising in my opinion. I can't test it right now, though. I really appreciate to have all this stable features (at least I hope they are) out of the box in one product. I'm also interested in Unity's new light mapper. Being able to generate light maps from within the editor is a good thing to have and the results are probably better than what you can achieve with the A8 light mapper.

The procedural tree creator seems to yield acceptable results, too. And there's even more procedural stuff to come in the future: Unity Technologies and Allegorithmic Announce Technical and Strategic Partnership


BTW: DX Studio is somewhat similar to Unity, but the full-featured non-commercial version costs only $158. In regard to scripting you can do almost anything what JavaScript offers, but despite using TraceMonkey it's still too slow for implementing low-level stuff. You have to use the free SDK for this. However, I don't know whether it's worth the effort... with lite-C it's so fcking easy.

i think it's also always a matter of what you are used too.

the gamestudio api is nice and easy but i don't really get what's supposed to be so great about lite-c? it still is c. a 40 year old archaic language. most of the time i find it a bit too low level and cumbersome for writing gameplay code. also debugging still is a huge pain.

it's relatively easy to use the gamestudio api with other languages though.

i kind of agree. gamestudio will never be able compete with unity anymore in the tools department. if i think of unity's beast and umbra videos and then of the state and workflow of gamestudio's map compiler...

Definitely, around fall 2011. I want to make desktop game, but Mobile platform has high priority.

I have a game concept on mobile, but I cannot start the project until the end of this year. I bought U3 because I want to enojy the discount of beta release.

Although I jump to Unity boat, but actually I enjoyed and learned a lot from GameStudio and the community.

When I realized some iPod games I purchased was made with Unity, I bought the iPhone option, and Android option follow.

Actually the products sell itself.

And I found a game on Steam was made with Unity too, availabe on Windows and Mac.

I think JCL just doesn't have enough ambitious and passion to compete with the rivals today. Just to look how long the Acknex engine exists and how fast the emerging of Unity engine and the growing of community.

From my point of view, Unity isn´t that different compared to Gamestudio and it isn´t as restrictive as ShiVa.
It has a consistent and well working API and the Editor does a lot of things to simplify the users life. Like importing newly added files, compiling the code and integreting the codes interface into the editor.
This works basicly very well, but especially on the shader side, where it even has to compile for the different systems supported, this sometimes ends within a mess. Using shaders initially written in CG on the iPhone for example is something I didn´t yet see working correctly. But one can at least work around this easily by providing the same effect written in GLSL.
Another example where it doesn´t work correctly are texture lookups. It seems as if it sometimes optimizes them away. I for example failed to render the r channel of one texture and the g and b channel of another as a fullscreen effect. I tried many ways and while each texture on its own could be displayed correctly, it refused to display both at once.
Also the template shaders, are kinda messy and inconsistent, especially the postprocessing ones, just like in gamestudio.
I am getting used to Unity lately and the high request for custom shaders in the community shows that the provided onces aren´t enough. Which is actually always the case, as alround shaders tend to be slow, while a custom one exactly fitting the needs for a scene is often much faster and gives better results.
What I am now trying to figure out is how to manipulate the vertices and rendered pixels within the deferred pipeline, while still allowing the standard "surface shader" to work. The only other shader which seems to do something like that looks not very nice...

unless he is sitting on the bank of the river waiting for the corpse of Unity passing by

They must have a very high turnover to afford a team of more than 30 employees
Good for us , anyway

@darkinferno :
You should make a level with terrain
I think you'll be crying to see how it is easy to create in the world editor of Unity !

Lightmapping a scene makes the difference.
Torque 3D and Unity have understood , by adopting a good lightmapping tool , the user can generate it under the editor and that's it makes a big difference to a scene.

I played Halo Reach, the levels are a pure pleasure to look at, with top Lightmapping (they have their own code very advanced for that).


For A8, it's a coding tool , it can be lot more easy for beginners to use A8 than Unity; caus they have a lot less things to learn on the interface.
And coders don't care about workflow also.
Even today lot of newwbies, beginners use Bark Basic Pro.

So we not must compare A8 and Unity, their client target are not the same at all.
A8 continues evolving in its own way, and Conitec don't want to waste money to pay more coders to bring on 3DGS to Unity level.
Even more Conitec would not be sure to be better than Unity or reach it's level; it would suppose restart all from Zero !
Interface, engine etc ....
And i don't talk about Browser, Iphone , Android, WII support !!!!! Even more Mac support !!!
Too much heavy task !
Even more Conitec would not be sure people would choose it's product than Unity that have lot lot of Iphone happy users for example !

So to all stop comparing Unity and 3DGS !
Their platforms are different, Unity supports Mac, Mobiles, consoles, and 3DGS PC only.
3DGS target lot more newbbies, beginners, and Indie Lonewolfs;
it's perfect to make PC casual/arcade or more simpler games but that's can sale a lot !
If you target realistic next gen , with shaders ready to go, terrain tools , Unity is the way to go !
But do your team is skilled to do such game ??


I stop here

Man after 2 year using it, i finally updated to Pro \o/
It's awesome, now i can use the profiler, awesome shaders, batching, lightmapping, etc

So to all stop comparing Unity and 3DGS !

Ok ratchet, but it was you who compared both 6 times (!) in this thread.

if this engine would just give me standard shaders with support for level lights and shadows whether static or dynamic then i'd marry... am carefully watching the A8 todo list to see if they'll introduce something to make me wanna upgrade

Don't give up, this is what the purpose of this forum.

Ok so perhaps it's also me , so i must stop !

@darkinferno :
You can find theses infos on the new features description :
Integrated Lightmapping via Illuminate Labs' Beast. Documentation.
Automatic generation of lightmap UVs (mesh import setting).
Terrains use the same solution and gain a whole new look when used with skylight.
You no longer use special "Lightmapped" shaders; all shaders that interact with lighting can handle lightmaps. Dynamic shadows from characters mix with lightmaps properly.
So no problem you'll have terrain and levels with lightmaps OK , and that's work in combination with shaders !

Oetherwise, go to their forum and ask them !


If you upgrade that a big big amount of money; and the difference is too small like 800 Euros for A8 Pro that is only 300 Euro difference to Unity Pro that costs 1100 Euros.

I think i wouldn't hesitate to buy Unity Pro instead, for the price you'll have a complete today next gen engine with Deffered shading already integrated with their last technology (some sort of shaders pass by surface) and a AAA Lightmapper !!! All that with top nocth integrated terrain editor etc ...

And don't forget their are some others really cool things like :
- Tree generator
- New CharacterMotor script for use with CharacterControllers.
Proper movement on slopes and steps without loosing grounding ...
- Surface shaders
- Soft particles
etc ...

Well just my personnal opinion !

yes am aware of unitys features, i was referring to what A8 pro would have to do for me to consider buying it...

I LOVE the workflow in Unity!

Hiya.

For me, Unity let's me (mostly artist, barely programmer) get my stuff into a 'working' environment quickly and easily. Some people have said that A7/8 has a much easier programming method. This may be true, but if I have to fight with the asset import/export, level editor, lighting, etc. in addition to trying to learn the programming...well, I'd rather go with a program where I only have to worry about the programming curve because all the rest of the stuff works easily.

I hate to say it, but it feels like Conitec has pretty much thrown in the towel on the whole game-engine thing. Looking at the choices out there now, A8 seems WAY overpriced (reduce the costs in half and you'd be in the right ballpark, IMHO). For A8 to get back into the game, Conitec would have to do a serious re-write of a lot of things.

1) Re-design the layout/workflow of the level editor (GED/WED should be combined). Optionally, look at the one or two decent 'level editors' out there and write 'modules/plugins' for them (I'm looking at 3D World Studio and QuArK in particular).

2) Drop MED and integrate it's basic import/export functions into the level editor. A8 doesn't have it's own 2d graphics editor, nor does it have it's own music or sound editor...why have it's own model editor? Pointless.

3) Develop SED to be more, or, better still, find a way to integrate it into MS Visual Studio somehow.

4) Write specific COLLADA import/export plugins for the major 3D packages out there (Lightwave, XSI, Maya, 3DS MAX, Cinema4D, Blender); if they have the time, or it's 'easy', toss out some for the lesser-used programs (Hexagon, Carrara, TrueSpace).

5) Design a kick-ass PDF users guide, and keep it updated, and available for free download for anyone (not just 'registerd users').

6) Drop the multiple-versions (Free, Commercial, etc) and just have one single version with three different licences; 'non-profit' (cheapest), 'single-title' (low), 'unlimited' (expensive). Price wise, if all this was added, I could see the prices they kinda have now; $50, $350, and $750, lets say. Maybe work out some kind of 'studio' pricing for multiple licenses.

I'm sure there is more, but that's the major things I see. Anyway, I still keep my eye on Conitec, but I haven't seriously used 3D Game Studio in years, opting for more easy-to-use engines like dxStudio and Unity.

@Paul_L_Ming :
I agree totally ! i already talked about these things lot of times already
But A8 is A8, it's not Unity or Torque 3D !
Like Dark Basic Pro is Dark Basic Pro !

A8 targets Coders mainly, beginners, kids, new comers to 3D, people targetting little games !
Not lot of people in the forum target beginning 3D art and programming after, they instead target programming before !

It's like DB PRo it's not the same target than Unity or Torque 3D ! and Unity have a big whole team behind, 3DGS or DB Pro can't fight against that with one or two programmers !
And they don't try to do as same things caus they target others people !

The main problems of A8 are :

It's not a pleasure to work with A8 :
When you have used Unity , it's hard to work back with A8 !
* You must use MED ,SED and WED, not all in one !!!
* Lot of things in Unity only need a click (apply shaders,
choose textures, models, apply simple physics ....)
* A real pleasure to make great terrains form nothing directly
in Unity
* Only one button to run your level
* Interface use is a pleasure !

- Price :
Even more with Unity having a free version ! A8 is becoming too expensive as years passes, and other big packages have more and more easy to use advanced tools and features (workflow)

- Beta for code mainly : more and more code functions
very good for coders , who will use all these functions ???
A lot of new functions are for specific user request : Even they will never make a real game !!!!

- New template took lot more than a year (and more i think) to be done !!!!!! It would be main priority, 3D artists and beginners !



Well, but some good steps are done with A8 in right direction to please 3D artists :
- FBX import working great and with Blender
- new Templates are coming ( i hope to see Space ship
template, flying template also !)
- new Lite C usefull libraries are coming
- More often Betas
- Physx integration
- Collision library will be using Physx

I bought A8, and i'm happy with it !
I would want lot more oriented 3D artist things , but it's OK , A8 is not Unity !!!! For little games , even medium , by using clever LOD and good tips you can manage do great casual/little/medium games !

Yes Unity workflow is lot lot more fast to work with :
Texture browser, assets browser, terrain editor, physics properties, template panels all in Unity Editor,
and shaders applyable in one click !
But it's big BIG team behind !!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't forget even with Unity, if you're not a medium/good 3D artists then only your terrains only will be great !
(Unity gives great package of floor textures ot users)

Unity won't make 3D characters, cars and all Village , spaceships models and textures for you !

You can make great things with A8 , even if it asks more work than Unity indeed !
But do you have enought 3D skills to make something visually good even with A8 ??????
Ask yourself that before asking more powerfull engine !

I found something interesting today, the Unity people do not only care about technology, they now also help to publish the products:
http://unity3d.com/union/

I find this idea not that bad. It helps them all, it saves a lot of time for the developers and they get noticed the same way like all the other developers publishing through this channel.

Besides that they also want to launch an asset store:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/...ore-1350977.htm

It's a great idea !

Developpers will be able to publish titles if they are good , easily wihtout needing to seek for a publisher !
And it's said 80% of income will go to the developper !
A good way to make Unity even more popular !

Selling Assets , is an idea already done in Torque 3D or Dark Basic pro site.
For FPS craetor they also put a store to directly purchase
any model needed for making a game !
I find it a really good idea, if the models and model Packs will be quality !

A8 could also make that , it would only boost A8 visual quality games i think !
Some coder, buying a quality level pack, would make a game
tat at least would have a visual attractive level

It is not just an idea. I just checked. The new version 3.1 already has the content store integrated. You can indeed buy assets directly inside the editor, followed by downloading and importing into your current project.

Great Video of unity presentation with the author that started
all that crazy tool engine in the old days !

Unity Keynote video

They are seeing big with 360 and PS3 support also

They show the integrated workshop in the editor working that is a great idea (i hope they will put free stuff also or free user made assets ?)

I think they will be successfull for log of time with Iphone
support that is a device that will be succefull with all new incoming versions.

I find too much expensive Android dev kit.
And Android devices are juts coming not established in Europe.
Shiva 3D is lot more affordable for Android dev for example.
But at least they have the tools to develop on it

Some great games made with Unity that i didn't heard until now :

The Uncanny Fish Hunt :
Great top original graphics, with great effects, and simple
efficient and really fun gameplay. Top indie game i didn't hear about
Uncanny Fish Trailer

Pirates of the new horizoans :
Original, great graphics and gameplay: refreshing
Pirates of the new horizons

Interstellar Marines :
Really great game , reaching some AAA quality, even if i find textures not enought detailled with some dirt, scratches and other details !
But for indie little team it's big big achievment
Interstellar Marines trailer

Undertown :
Great AAA looking indie game with great use of shaders, realtime lights and effects.
Original world and story, original levels and gaemplay.
I like it a lot also.
Undertown

Well Unity speeds up a lot game making when you have an idea and when your goal is lot more making the game than coding.

I wonder how people can claim that a game is great without playing it
Just thanks to a you tube nice looking demo ?

There are apalling boring games around with a great demos

The goal is to make games rather than coding ?
With poor coding you can make a great virtual reality project you dont make a great game

The game engine task is to relieve the game programmer from reinventing the wheel, that's it

There is no great game with a poor coding
But there are great games with a poor graphics

Where is the skill programming needed to make a good third person game ?

I think you really need, some good story, some cool revamped ideas ( Zelda like power ups, gear of war cover system
or any other ideas).

Even Unreal SDK give you all tools to make an FPS :
You don't need to code lot of things, that have been done
by very skilled programmer

Even with Unreal 3,you would have great ideas , specially for an indie game with limited 3D art skills and time).
There are lto of AAA Fps today, all the same, only some few are original like the great BorderLands or
Bioshock. Only few are refreshing !

Original ideas , story and world is very important.
Original graphics also, caus the game can be refreshing from all War FPS and realistic ones.

Unity have already Physic based collisions for your game, and a character controler, and camera system.
All the rest to make the game is up to you :
Story, original graphics, or refreshing world !

From that point of view, these games are original indeed,
and also from world original graphics.


Well i wanted to point complete coming games with originality , that i would want to play.

Go to all website putting video of incoming AAA games
that no one have played and say this is bad

This is unity thread, no Unity vs A8 !
If you don't like Unity ok , but don't say gameplay is bad if you don't have played that games also ????
I never talked about gamplay, so why do you talk about that ??
Why saying gameplay will be bad for sure ???

Do you want ot say that engines having an ready ot use framework template for FPS or Third personn is bad and make bad games :
Go say that to people using Unreal 3 or for the incoming
Crysis engine with a special license that will have all coding and tools ready to make Fps or Third personnn games

The benefit of Unity is that it can bring programemrs AND graphic artists together in a usable UI that is suited to both parties.
The engine is great and powerful, but the toolset is what makes unity really great.

I have been on these boards for quite some time. Been around since A4. In that time I learned that the downfall of 3DGS is that it is hard to work with strickly artists. It is an engine geared towards programmers, or jack of all trades (someone who is capable of doing all their own work).

Unity has a huge advantage as it is geared towards everyone.
The workflow is great for programmers and arists.

You can have an artist join your team with no knowledge of the toolset, and still they will be able to produce excellent results and get their assets working properly.
Same goes for code/programmers.

Unity isn't perfect.. But the Balance of workflows really helps move projects along.


Also, I should add that another thing that makes unity so popular is it's cross platform support. It can make great PC and mac games.. But IMO it is hard for an indie developer to be scene in the desktop gaming market. Be it free games or paid games. Success is very rare.

Unity's iPhone and android publishing makes it perfect for indies. Both markets are extremely friendly for indie developers.
There is also the ability to build games for Xbox, Ps3 and wii.. but personally I think it is rare for developers to even move to these platforms. I think these are more of a "novelty" item.. or a pipe dream


What conitec needs to do is create a mobile version of their engine. Something cross platform. Focusing on windows only is fine for a hobby user. But rare for developers trying to break into the saturated market.

Thanks Vprime
I agree with all that !

I just installed Unity 3 , i haven't used it from a long time.
i made a little demo :
I done a terrain in 10 minutes (with multitexture textures),
Waving grass, trees with variable color and size.
The density , random size, with all in the interface sliders panels
An character with standard 3rd personn camera and physic controller for run, walk etc ...

The best we can run the engine and game level on the editor
and add camera controllers or tweak them with sliders :
too strong workflow !

Yes that's workflow for 3D artists !

Better i made all that in my little Eepc a really tinny
and not powerfull laptop that have Nvidia Ion graphics chip
only, but it runs fine and smooth



A top notch thing is that Unity delivers Mono for C# directly in the installation of Unity 3.
So you can also directly begin to program advanced things in C#.

Well, grass/tree management , with placement using random values if needed for color , density , size etc ... is really great.

I could make an Action/Rpg prototype with monsters, menus, HUD really really fast.

Yes Unity , delivers a lot for 3D artists !

Just like VPrime already wrote, there is no artist-versus-programmer cult especially when you use complex technology like Unity. It needs both, skilled programmers experienced with object and component based programming. And it needs good content. A programmer alone will have a hard time just as a pure graphics guy will not get very far. Maybe a few of them are skilled in both fields, but really, Unity is not a game engine for artists. A pure artist will not finish a game with it for sure.

I agree, but with the components template of Unity, the really good tutorials like the thrid person game, some good 3D artist can learn the basic programming and make some good game.
Sure for a pure 3D artist that don't know anything about programming it can be hard to do more than a simple walkthrug demo

But for people balanced in 3D art and programming that can do good enought stuff, or people that have learned both sides :
Unity brings lot lot of stuff and things to ease the creation of a game !
For terrain and all the stuff around , grass, trees, etc ...
and all the physics that's really really great.

What especially impresses me about Unity is that it made my jaw drop when watching their Umbra occlusion culling video. In my opinion a great example of telling the engine what to do and how and this on a quite low level basis in an easy and hassle free way...

http://vimeo.com/15189993

Sorry, I have to laugh about that one, because it shows that you´ve absolutely no clue about game development at all.
Thank you for this revealing.
Its pointless to discuss with somebody who gets his information from his own imagination rather than from reality.

Looking at the screenshot I can tell you: You are not a 3D artist.
Better stick with something else.

I can send you a demo i made with A8 with all code :
3rd person camear, collision, path following for ennemies, walking, running etc ... i know a good bunch about game programming in A8 and Unity.

Even in the old days with A6 you had the basic 3rd person template and could begin make the world and assets before refining gameplay and begin serious gameplay !

The screenshot is something made with Unity assets included on installation. Compared to that A8 have very very bad assets and textures.

-------------

I'm against anyone of you two youg guys !
For non constructive opinions like that you can go to any existing forums !!

I never said i was a great 3D artist, and you have already seen i can do some better things than A8 assets (watch for Futurist soldier in REssources topics) !


Show me some game of you or some 3D models ... just to see !

I really think you talk just like that, and don't know what i can do in 3D !!! it's your pleasure to be bad with the people you find !

I think you have some problem with your own person or something is missing in your life to not have some adult behaviour or perhaps you don't have enought maturity !

My advice, to me more cool with other people and become more tolerant in your life , caus the behave in forums reflects how you do in real life.

- Find a girl, bring her at home to play , and play something
real that is not 3D game or 3D engine

- Go to a big party with great music feeling you high
- Take beers in a big latino bar with some friends
- read books on Bouddhism

Go outside and Play the real life.
I'm sure you'll forget A8 , Unity and game making lot more

Well well, i really need a new girl !!!!!!!!!!
To loose less time on forums !
It was a pretty one, in great outfits this afternoon, but she told me that there was no way, even if i was not a bad looking boy héhé, But she got already a friend she loved ! (Next time will be the good i hope)
That's real life play

Here is are some few screenshots of my projects, the files beginning with "haendler" are made with A7 and my models.
No, I'm not a 3D artist either, but at least I know it.

http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/gulli01.jpg
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Haendler01.jpg
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Haendler02.jpg
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Haendler03.jpg
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Haendler04.jpg
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Haendler05.jpg
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Haendler06.jpg
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Haendler07.jpg
Some iPhone stuff:
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/iphone01.PNG
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/iphone02.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/iphone03.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/iphone04.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/iphone05.jpg
A open source wannabe kernel
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Nanos01.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Nanos02.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Nanos03.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Nanos04.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Nanos05.png
Some Unity3d stuff:
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Unity01.png
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/Unity02.jpg
A project browser:
http://www.slindev.com/files/Sid/portfolio/xbrowse.png

And when talking about projects, here is pure Code project:
http://www.opserver.de/ubb7/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=343108#Post343108

Very funny.
As I have a women (and a 11 year old daughter as well) and we are giving big partys every friday everything should be alright.

Again: Don´t take your imaginations for real.

Btw. I was not talking about a 3rd person camera. I was talking about a RPG. And you will not create a good RPG without programming, just face it.
Non constructive are imaginations that are taken for real to get a basis for a discussion.
Non constructive is _not_ when someone says you STFU because you are talking nonsense.

I never said, find a girl, have big parties at all same time
i just put a list , i nevre said to make that at same time ! Even it is possible to go outside to big parties ith your girlfriend ! where is the impossible here ????????

As I have a women (and a 11 year old daughter as well) and we are giving big partys every friday everything should be alright.

You are a dad , and im' not
Your are a really lucky guy believe me, some people like me with my age are sad in life to not have found serious person to help them in real life when conflicts apperas in the work, or when you feel alone at night !
I think you have reached some completion in your life , like all dads ! your are a lucky person indeed , not all people
find the woman that really suits them (or it finishes in divorces sometimes)

Well is talk about imagination also if i had to tell you my rank in some martial art, not a martial sport , something very old from Japan and when existed Samourais !
I will not tell about parachute and one another sport i do in summer also , i think like you say i dream a lot
Or the parachutist military camp where i've been a year lot of years ago in France i htink i dream also
Some big parties in London , Tiesto concerts etc ...i must dream also


-----------
I know that you need minimum programming ofr an RGp , in fact a lot for the dialog and cmabt, menus ect ...
It depends on the level fo your RPG for things really simple,
it existed on PS2 RPg maker series !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do it, tell the people about it. Give them hints, tell them tricks. But do it in the right forum, this here is about programming and game development. When you talk bullshit about it, we will let you know it.
As well as we want to know when we talk bullshit at other topics, eg. parachuting.
Just letting the people do will help nothing but will only make 'em cry.

Oh, and I have nothing against you at all. I just think that you have no idea about the stuff you are talking here. That is my problem, I'm sure that you would the think about me at other topics, but like I said, this isn't the place for them

full ack
"If you don't have a clue: just shut up."
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Nuhr

There´s no need for dull gossip. For this we´ve got morbius.
All we need here is: Facts!
And not some flat "who needs code for a rpg?"

A beginner may believe you and he will get angry when he realizes that he can realize a third person camera with one click, but not a big database implementation with skills, names and other dependencies.

And when it comes to saving the whole shebang in a profile.
And when it comes to multiplayer.

Shure, the game will run. But it won´t live.
It won´t be a "good" game.

What i said ,was for Fogma, not for you JustSid !

@Fogman, why talking about your real life in first place, even more perhaps it's false ???
So you are someone that reacts also to what is said easily ...
What do you want to proove by having a wife and kid ?
I know people having a family but not happy at all also !
Like a woman that was not happy with her even after having a kid ! Real life is complicated sometimes
I have nothing against you Fogman !

@JustSid :
Your 3D work is incredibly basic, not bad , and good for Iphone games target indeed, but not next gen or today complicated scene or character !
But if you already can do that and have a very good programming , im' sure yiu can achieve some great indie game even more on Iphone device

I have nothing against you, too.
But I´ve something against untrue gibberish.

And, uhhhm, you´ve started talking about "real life".


For me real life and www is the same, because I´m talking to real people, not to some bots. If you´ve the impression that the www is some kind of virtuel holodeck, you really should look out for help.

All things have two sides !
One visible the other not , i'm like that also (kyojitsu).

I don't like to watch TV, i meet my friends,
when i talk with them, that's with tcaht not in forums.
Who are you to say to people they need help
Everyone needs help one day or other

Read some books on Buddhism !

Surprise: I'm not a 3D artist. In fact I have so little knowledge about it that even my Mum could do it much better. And she is a english teacher and doesn't know how to use a PC.
I never said that I'm a 3D artist, in fact I always said that I'm a coder. I do it for a living and learn every day something new, its awesome. And I tell you from the perspective of a programmer: You are talking pure bullshit!
You seem to have no idea about the complexity of programming, even a simple program. Just like I have no Idea about modeling, but I don't tell the modeler that they make it wrong and that I could do it much better in tool X.

Oh and I have not the smallest interest in becoming a artis, that is and will ever be rocket science for me.

I believe at the side that I can see, not in imaginations on how maybe the other side could look.

@JustSid:
Ok things are clear :), we target different goals and 3D things that's sure.

@Fogman :
take a beer , relax

@Fogman :
Dig here to find the second side of things
The second side

Well i must go sleep, tomorrow there is a Taikai , yesss real life !

I don´t need to relax, because I have exactly the same opinion as JustSid.
As you are going hand in hand with his opinion, you should understand what I´m trying to say.

Apart from that it does me makes really a lot-o-fun to destroy daydreams when they are presented as the holy grail.

And yes there are two sides. But you can´t make exceptions to the rule. Most games (99,9 %) will need a proper amount of code.

It's not day dreams
It's a day that can happen if you keep an empty mind and relaxed spirit and forget all the day and if you believe incredibly a lot in you !

Nope.
If you´ll keep an empty mind in that regard you won´t get any progress.
I know perfectly what you mean, as I´ve done a lot of things in my life with the help of Mr. Lama.

But I´ve also learned that it´s not good to spread nonsense.

So don´t try to drag this discussion into personal details.
You´ve just talked bullshit, of course you want to defend your imagination, but that makes it even more awkward.

I never said it happened for me
But i can say that with an empty mind lot of things can happen !

This doesn´t make your statement more true.

Never said it wa right what is right ? and what coud be true ??
I can say all i said is wrong also you'll never know what part is right ! you'll believe what you want to believe only !

For people around me, the ones i see often are the real ones,
i have lot of virtual friends also i never met in reality in some forums, but that's virtual only, i don't have any interest in what they say is right or wrong !!

That's like someone seeing a rope in the dark , he believes it's a snakes and flees, another see the thing and think it's a rope and just walk around , but perhaps it was a snake ???
Ok all i said is wrong at final, it's not important what you think, believe about me and other people !

I'm a really kind person, some reading for you
Another good article : More Kokoro

Who know perhaps my link is a random one , and i don't really know nothing anything about what it is.
Perhaps all that is false !

Perhaps i never done 3D , and things i posted are not from me
but made by some friend or anyone ??
Perhaps im' just leading you somewhere to some directions, where you'll believe in some things

About right and false, i'm really really kind with people ,
i have a last reading for your general culture
Right or False (what you see, think) ?

Funny thing is that you try to stretch a really clear fact to something that has to do with belief.

There.Will.Be.No.Good.Game.Without.Coding.
That has nothing to do with belief or faith.

Funny thing is also that you contradict yourself permanentely.
And even if you don´t think you are right, then maybe some beginners are thinking you are.

This is were the sting is in the tail.
So we won´t stop to debunk your false claims.

All is false, i don't know nothing about programming and 3D
And you are totally right !
What i can i see more to please you ?
(I think you have as much time to loose as me, does you really have a wife ???)
People having a real 3D project, i know spend rarely time on non constructive things as this one !

What is true on you ?

I don't want to win anything, i don't mind about otehr people opinion , caus i have any goal, anything to win.
I prefer to loose against you !



"A distraction is only a distraction if you pay attention to it." -- Unknown

I think this is a long one Thanks !

Some last distraction :

Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.- Kev Emery

Well perhaps something for you to meditate

All i said really influences you, like i can see !
What you want to win , where is the trophy ?
I don't see anything to win nowhere here !!


Another great reading for you my friend :
Great reading

I hope sincerely from my heart , that you'll have a good night (and perhaps good dreams also ) !

@All

Everybody wants to talk maybe..but just maybe...about unity 3?
If not change the title to "FLAME WARS RELOADED" or sth. like this

Hm it's funny to read the last pages on this thread
But I don't think the visitors here are interessted in your personal discussion. You jumped from Topic A to Topic B, C and D! Common Guys why don't you write private messages if you apparently have some problems between you. This things that you wrote here are not things, which turns out in a normal discussion. This are things that have been grown up in yourself. It is disrespectful to the other visitors and to Conitec, if you don't respect the rules here. Stay on topic and stop filling this thread with things which don't hit the topic. Sorry for my english, I know it's not my Job to say this but take it as a good advice from someone who visits this forum since years...I'm not active but I can immagine what new visitor think when they see such behaviour on this forum. It's sad...

Now to turn back topic, I think this is a good Idea with the last additions to Unity. It gives a bigger chance for Artitst and Programmer to be more in focus with their Creations they want to sell. It's always a good point around a product, if Third Parties Extensions ( even if not seen as a extension but also Models, DLLs, Assets etc.) are shown to public or knewn where to find them. I see the beloved different let's call them market stores as the modern Showcase for finished Projects,Extensions, Assets etc. I mean that's a good deal for both, for the Developers of the Engine and for you. Great! Don't want to say something with Acknex now, this topic is on Unity and I was now the one who said stay on topic so I do it now myself. But I really think that a store for such thinks are a great Idea but of course it needs to be run by someone. So if not in the company than cooperate with someone else. But this things are the modern way of showcasing finisched helping Assets,Extensions etc. Of course just for finised things and in good quality Nice that they told now on this update that it si possibile to place a closed source DLL written in managed code into the projects folder. So that no one is forced to release it's source of his DLL. This was possibile before with 3.0 but they missed to tell it so they've done it now on the Changelog of 3.1 lol I knew that in 2.6 it was not that easy to use third partie DLLs, it was possibile but it without the freedom of now. All in one a good update 3.0 and 3.1

Don´t get me wrong, I´ve used Unity for myself and I´m using flash for example.
Also I´m not into flame wars.
I simply do not take nonsense anymore, because it leads us to nirvana. I´ve seen the same thing with Torque and Gamecore.
And still ratchet is trying to make statements without any background. I can´t take this for serious and I´ll fight against it.
Any other reaction would be pointless political correctnes.

If he talks nonsense, I´ll react. And he´s talking a lot of nonsense.

I´m concerned about the forums reputation, not about other engines. If some newbies are taking him serious, they´ll get a problem.



As I´ve said - imagination.
Yes, my posts are destructive.
Destructive to non-constructive nonsense.

I agree..
It is easy to ignore certain members.. But letting things go can affect the community in a negative way.
That is one of the reasons why I have been on these forums for over 8 years now. Even though I am not using Conitecs products at the moment, I still come here because of the community.
All it takes is 1 bad apple to ruin the bunch.

Yes, I agree. The Umbra, the Beast integration, the new tree editor, the asset shop, the Union publishing concept. It is growing so fast. And next release is told to have a procedural texture generator (the same that has been integrated into Max and Maya recently). A user made a graphical node based shader editor. It is really more than amazing to see how fast it grows.

I also agree with your opinion about this nonsense personal discussion. Some personal messages would be better in this case. I appreciate all of these people. Ratchet sometimes exaggerates a bit but it is not all nonsense what he writes. And I like how he replies with humour instead of getting angry.

Something like an RPG , do you mean ?
Have you ever tried to to code a group action ?
The members of the party working together in a proper way
Nope ?
Ok do it and then you would realize what kind of programming skill you need




Hey my friend, I understand now, why other members asked you to stop telling nonsense
Apart from the fact that I am a Unity3d user , I did not say that they are bad games
It was you who claimed that they are great games without playing them
I simply said that a demo is not sufficient to judge a game, the game play being an important element even more important , in my opinion, than a good graphics

I simply said that you can not expect to have a good game play without intensive coding

Game engines are very important for time saving but you can not expect to go beyond a "WASD" walkthrough game ( better virtual reality project ) if you dont like programming

While this is true, in the end it will not be sufficient except you are the very first on the market maybe even at a new platform. But the past showed us that there will be always someone to pick up your game play ideas and remakes it with decent graphics and just earns more money in the end. This also shows that customers will chose the better looking option when there is a selection to make.

Popcap as a casual game producer is such an example. They just remake existing ideas. They made tons of match-3-games or a tower defense game (plants vs. zombies). They just do it better, with more units, better presentation, more particles, better sound, better music. And they port it to each possible platform. And it sells in the end. It works, they make tons of money.

This tells me, that game play is important, it is the base, the ingredient each game just needs to survive, but game play sells best with good presentation.

good gameplay needs a good programmer. i also think that there is no way around it. and of course good presentation is important too. but good presentation doesn't have much to do with being AAA and next-gen (rachet's most favorite words ). there are awesome games with very simple or rather abstract graphics.

edit:
Uncanny Fish Trailer
Pirates of the new horizons
i like the art direction of the first one a lot more. they have put more thought into colors and so on. the second one looks too cluttered. it somehow lacks hierarchy in colors, lighting, shapes...

if you are smart you can do something that is less work (extremely important for small developers!) and looks better at the same time.

This is the place where I want to thank ratchet, because he gives on an almost regularly basis links to interesting games!
Thank you, ratchet!
I agree that his assumptions are mostly going too far.
Maybe, ratchet, you want to make a tiny little game that is fun for at least a minute, make it as small as possible.
This way you could see/show how close your suggestions are to the reality of game making.(or, how far away they are from the praxis of game making.)

[Maybe, a "Minute Game Contest" in Morbius with any engine you like were a nice thing to do?]

Mentioning the ever lasting design versus programming: don't forget marketing.
*still looking speechlessly impressed at the success of AaaaaaAAAAaaaah! and Bad Rats and Wonderful World*

About design:

IMO, to invent those "very simple or rather abstract graphics" is already an extremely difficult task. I almost lost my believe in me that I can handle that, although I have still hope that can learn it.
Look at 'my' "Fish On Wheels" in the projects forum, I think it is an extremely good start, but it is extremely far away from getting a consistent graphical design, too. This bothers me very much.

It is what I meant
In GameDev forum , fanatic programmers claim that you should programm every thing from the scratch
That's absurd of course
However some fanatic artists make the same mistake
If they watch a good demo on you Tube...wow a great game, they claim

Of course it would silly to deny the importance of graphics and presentation
It is a matter of fact however that many top selling games do not have an advanced graphics
take the SIMS for example
The other way round is hard to find
Not only
Sometime the abuse of graphics effects can be even a drawback
Take for example strategic games
I still regret the "spartan" Dune 2 graphics which made so easy to indetify and select the unities on the battle field
In other kind of games the atmosphere is , on the contary, created by the graphics

I downloaded Unity3. It is a very impressive tool for making Role Playing Games. It can do much of the work allowing one to create lovely graphics. However, the amount of "help" that a system provides is inversely proportioned to the amount of "freedom" allowed in said system. A simple example is the use of templates in GS.

An expert in either GS or Unity can create amazing games. GS provides a lot of freedom which requires a lot of graphics and programing. Unity makes those tasks easier but one must follow the "Unity" path. I doubt that I could have created my reaction time programs easily in Unity3.

Define your task, recognize one's own talent and knowledge, choose a platform and create.

Well what You are saying is correct
The amount of help is inversely proportional to the amount of freedom
For this reason I hate the engines which make too much for you
A typical example was Torque which was geared towards FPS multiplayer games
However we should not make also the opposite mistake
I went through some absurd threads on GameDev forum where fanatic programmers supported by even more fanatic moderators claimed that game engines are of no use
A game programmer should code everything from the scratch ( direct x or opengl ) in the name of flexibility
About 3dgs and Unity3d in my opinion they are the right compromise
These engines supply just those features which are in common to all games
Features which the developer should in any case code by himself
Templates and prefabricated scripts are options
Dont use them if you dont like them

You are right that some tools can make things too easy, and thus remove important functions to make more diverse games..
BUT, I disagree with you about unity vs 3dgs. IMO Unity is not any more limiting than 3D Game studio is. In my opinon after using it for a while.. I find that it is just as versatile compared to 3dgs.
The workflow just makes you think things are too easy, the work flow is just speeding up things that you waste lots of time on in other engines.

I am just curious how much time you spent with unity before coming to your conclusions? All I can say is give it a chance and learn its ways. Yes some things are different, but that doesn't make the platform any less powerful.

Dear VPrime,

I must have failed to be clear for I did not mean to say anything about the power of a platform nor decide if one was better than the other. I recall the heated discussions of "C" vs "BASIC". A casual programer (like myself) is unlikely to have the time to master any platform. Hence, our efforts are going to be more affected by the concepts underlying said platform.

Well probably both VPrime and myself misunderstood your post
I understood that Unity, in your opinion, is less flexible than 3dgs, as far as programming is concerned
Up to a certaint extent it may be true
For example Unity3d does not allow vertices manipulation
However it is a big mistake to assume tha Unity3d is for artists while 3dgs is for programmers
Unity supply a lot of commands having an high degree of abstraction thus making the engine more flexibble but also less intuitive

Ups. Sure? That's interesting...what does it allow. I guess there is something like vec_for_vertex - but no vec_to vertex?

of course unity allows vertex and mesh manipulation too. otherwise the minecraft clones like the one of captain kiyaku wouldn't be possible for example.

Yep i can just confirm what ventilator said, you can modify vertex of course, create meshes at run time, recreate the UV coordinates, etc.

It bothers me if people always "try" Unity for an hour and then be like "i've used Unity it sucks its missing feature xyz".

EDIT:
Have fun: http://unity3d.com/support/documentation/ScriptReference/Mesh.html

In my case it was slightly different;
after half an hour of trying real hard, I found Unity is so much better in quickly making games/prototypes.
And in my case, where I love to develop but lack the time to do so usually, this is a huge factor.
I decided to start using Unity3D over 3DGS.

There's good story's to "trying" as well

regards,

PS: yes, this does mean you wont see me around very often here anymore.

As far as I can understand Unity3d simply wrap opengl commands
You create a mesh in the run time,then you can manipulate its vertices
In 3dgs you can upload a prefabricated model in the model editor
The model editor returns an index for each vertex which you can manipulate
3dgs is much more powerful, I suppose ( only from this point of view )



agreed

So where exactly is it more powerful?
You can load a pre-made model into Unity as well and manipulate its vertices.
You get a list of vertices with following command:



You can use mesh.vertices to read OR to store vertices.

Unity has an a bit different design than gamestudio, but its functionallity is at least as complete, a bit more consistant, but a little bit harder to understand at first. Some things are a bit more complex to do than in gamestudio, but this sometimes allows some better flexibility in other situations.
So all in all the comments about lacking scripting flexibility is bullshit, as well as the idea of it being easier than in gamestudio.

Suppose you want to edit a specific vertex or a group of vertices of a 10.000 tris human model, let's say the right eye
In 3dgs you can simply click on that group of vertices , in the model editor, to retrieve the relevant index
Can you easily identify the vertices of the "vertices" array which belong to the right eye ?
If so, it is the same stuff

I can only look at Unity from an artist's point of view as well as from a business point of view. The Unity editor is miles greater than WED. And MED stinks (I simply cannot stand working in it), but that's okay because there are plenty of 3D modeling applications out there. But from a business perspective, it is hard to beat the one-click publishing to web, PC and MAC and the ability to add on to Unity to export to iOS, Wii, X-Box, etc. With GameStudio you are stuck with PC. And while that may sound nice (something like 95% of computers are PC?), in the business world we have to be concerned about the MAC (some schools use MACs only), iPhone, iPad and all of that. So Unity provides a lot of flexibility for the cost.

I have no choice but to seriously consider Unity for business reasons (as compared to GameStudio).

Well since Unity isn't restricted to a weird model format + editor, you can easily open your model program of choice and select the vertices there to get the number, it will be the same as in the index.

uhm...maybe you are right but I am not so sure
Suppose you want to draw something ,at run time ,on your model
for example a " red cross " on your hero's chest
There is an AUM tut
I dont think it is that easy in Unity

Well if you want to draw something on your chest, you just need to draw it on your texture for your body right?

So the normal GetPixels/SetPixels function will do fine, as long as you know where to place your cross at (in pixel space).

Why would you want to use vertices for that?

Yee I meant to draw and manipulate the vertices, at run time
A pulsating "red cross " on your hero's chest , or even better a "beating heart " of your hero
You must extract the right vertices from the "vertices" array
It is not that clear to me how you can accomplish this task in Unity

Does anybody know the answer ?
Is it possible in Unity to deform, at run time, just a selected part of a pre made model ?
Someone asked this question in Unity forum, a time ago
The answer was rather confused ...as usual
It is not true that, generally speaking, Unity is only for artist but it is true that ,for a reason or an other , 3dgs members are better programmers

well like i said, you would probably have to write down the vertices you want to move and then access them from the mesh.vertices array, move them and apply them again.

From your editor of choice you can get the local coord of the vertices of your hero's chest
These positions are stored in the "Vertices" array
To access this array you need an index for each vertex of the chest
My question is
How do you get these indices in Unity ?

you could write a few lines of script that loops through the vertices and draws the indices at their locations. or you look up the indices in your modeler like captain kiyaku mentioned.

well
You would admit that 3dgs is more easy friendly
You click on the vertex and you get your index
that's it

I don´t see a problem with this taking 5mins longer in Unity, as you can save that time at other places when using Unity. Like for example when publishing the same project for Mac and iPhone and not only PC...

you dont see a problem with this ?
Suppose your model has 10.000 vertices
Do you draw all of them with one call ?
Even at their location maybe
Do you loop through them step by step , lets say 10 vertices per call
1000 calls ?

That only has to be done once, to create a lookup table. And one would anyways just use some basic animation for something like that or a shader. One can also do a lot of cool stuff with vertex colors.
Also a loop through 10k vertices is not really a problem on current computer hardware. Also polygonal collision detection has to do it as well (can be optimized in some ways, but this is the same case for looping through those vertices for your animation).

I really dont understand why some people can reason only in term of black and white
I myself think that Unity, generally speaking, is better than 3dgs
I myself think that Unity3d is a good engine also for programmers
I myself switched to Unity
I simply said that "up to a certain extent " it it is correct to claim that 3dgs is still more programming oriented
Vertex manipulation is a typical example
Ok I said that Unity does not allow vertex manipulation
I should say Unity does not allow a user friendly vertex manipulation
However I am pretty sure that none of members who posted in defense of Unity have never manipulated a vertex in Unity
Otherwise they can not seriously claim that it is not a problem

For your information even Unity3d staff admited that vertex manipulation is rather limited and you know how proud Unity people are

They promised to fix this issue in the next release

the first approach should work but you can not draw all the indices at their location at the same time
it would be a bloody mess
The second approach seem to be faster but I wonder whether ìt really works
I mean, the coords which you read in your editor and the figures stored in the "Vertices" array are, of course, related numbers but are they also the same numbers?
If I import the same model from different file formats I get different scale factors and different global coords
Did all file format store exactly the same local coords for the same model ?

Well i mentioned it many times already... here to make it easier for you:

3DGS version:
1) Open Med
2) Select the vertex you want to manipulate
3) Write the ID down so you remember
4) per script call your vec_for_vertex or whatever using the ID

Unity version:
1) Open your Model Editor
2) Select the vertex you want to manipulate
3) Write the ID down so you remember
4) Per script call your vertices function using "mesh.vertices[ID]"

Got it? Okay?
I'm not thinking in black and white (funny that i am saying this :O) but i just dislike it if conversations are like this:
Person 1: "Feature A is easier in Engine B than C"
Person 2: "No it's not you can just call this and that the same way"
Person 1: "Anyway it is SO MUCH easier in Engine B!"

Which isn't true. It might be i tiny slightly bit easier if you consider that you first need to store the vertices array in Unity before using it

Vector3 myVertices = mesh.vertices;

But that's it and as Slin said, it has other parts that makes it "SO MUCH" easier using Unity than 3DGS.

I never ever wanna start those engine a vs engine b conversations since they are just stupid, but if i feel that someone is spreading wrong information, i can't help and convince them they are wrong

Does your model editor supply also the ID to put in the Vertices[ID]
to retrieve the vertex coords ?
May you tell me what application are you using ?

Nobody understood your explanation
You quoted my answer to Ventilator but the working solution proposed by Ventilator it is not what you said
I suppose that also Ventilator assumed that from a generic modeller you can get the local coords only
To find the ID's you must write, as he said, some lines of codes

btw I am still using version 2.6 because 3.0 has been reported to be buggy
My version does not have a built in model editor while 3.0 has
If in version 3.0 you get also the ID , fine the problem is over

Yes it does, that's what i keep saying here over and over again.

First, i don't think you can speak for "everyone" so please don't make statements like "nobody understood your explanation".

Second, because i'm such a nice guy, i've made a simple test for you in C4D and Unity. The code i used is following:



It just moves the vertex by 3 units up.

Here is the selected vertex in C4D:


Here is a shot from unity using the model and i assigned my script to it and changed vertexID to 105, the one i selected in C4D:


And voila, running the game moves exactly the same vertex!



Questions? Still something to complain? Thanks.

AlbertoT, please continue complaining.
I love those minimal tutorials of Captain_Kiyaku! Woohoow!
(While I am still working with 3DGS because of running projects, I can't wait to work with Unity. In the meantime, these tiny little explanations and tutorials are giving me the feeling that, once upon a time, I will do with Unity what I already achieved in programming with 3DGS.)

Hm, I'm thinking about the next theme... wait! You can't paint on multitextured terrain in Unity!
(Hope, you don't mind my comment, Captain! Errm, "Dichotomic"? What sort of title did you get there, and which moderator gave it to you?)

Interesting news for pupils and students:
You now can get Unity Pro, Unity iOS Pro or Unity Android for just 99$ as educational version...

I really like their pricing policy. Let's see if this will affect the 3DGS policy too...

of course you won't recognize much if you view the whole model but you can simply zoom in with the camera. it shouldn't be a big problem to find the vertices you want then. i did this a few times already.

what do the coords have to do with it? scale doesn't matter.

if the indices stay the same depends on your modeler and pipeline. i guess with some it works, with some not.



by the way, i think most mentioned examples better get done with bones and not by manipulating vertices.

I should have added that to my preview post 8D



@ Pappenheimer, hehe glad my rage test helped you learning something new.
Not sure what you mean with painting on multitextured terrains though, i somehow never use terrains (except the voxel one i generated by myself) but if you use the Unity Terrain you can just draw on it with multiple textures, is that what you mean?

Also i forgot when i've got the "Dichotomic" title, i think i've requested it once or maybe its from those times when mods were allowed to use custom titles. But i just think its a pretty word and i like it's meaning, especially considering my usual artwork.


EDIT:
haven't seen this before, you probably edited it later on:


Well i use 3 (now 3.1) since the beta came out, most of the bugs are fixed already and it's stable as hell for me, never really have any crash unless i produce them (infinite loop, etc). But i could imagine that there are still bugs making the engine crash when using terrain editor, or tree editor or whatever, but i usually don't need it, so i dont know if its stable or not.
But it is much more stable than 2.6 (at least for me! it often depends on what you are doing + your system).

There is no build in model editor in unity, why would it need that, you can use so many file formats and unity automatically exports it for you to fbx.

I was talking about your model editor of choice like Maya, C4D, 3ds, lightwave, blender, whatever. They all usually show vertex ID's (if not i would ask for my money back :P).

actually I was not complaining I simply understood from the rather syntetic Unity3d manual that you can only create and manipulate meshes at run time
I take note that C4D ( 1500 usd ) supply also the ID's which you can use to access the vertices in the Unity3d Vertices array but I have some doubt that you can do it with :

The editor of your choice

As a little bit nervous member claimed

Should the end user be bound to specific high end modelers to exploit all the Unity features , in this case I would cOmplain

C4D was just an example, i'm pretty sure you can read those infos in blender as well. You could even import your .fbx to med and use the id's, they are probably the same too.

I am not nervous at all It's just raging me if people keep complaining about problems that not exist, even when other people show them pretty much how easy it is.

It's not unity's problem if you can't find your vertices ID. It doesn't offer a modeling tool since you can use whatever you want. If 3dgs wouldn't have MED, you would have the same "problem" finding your vertex id, wouldn't you?
Unity offers you to access vertices by a given ID so that's absolutely all you would need.

Suppose you want to select a group of vertices to form a specific pattern with a reasonable accuracy
For example a "beating heart" same as you can see in some cartoons
You would agree that it is not that easy to do it zooming in / out a 10000 vertices model



This is exactly my concern
I am more confident in built in tools rather than relying on universal converter
Maybe in this case there is no any problem
However ask the Cinema 4 users how happy they are of the FBX exporter od the new R12 release




Generally speaking , I agree
But with some organic deformation ex the beating heart I dont think that bones are the best solution
uUnity does not suppot vertex animation ( Unless I am still wrong )
In some situation vertices animation it is still the way to go

Last just to avoid nervous reactions
We are talking about minor issues
In general I am convinced that Unity is as flexible as 3dgs

yes, i think you are right. unity doesn't support vertex animation sequences like gamestudio. you would have to do it yourself by moving vertices in code. that's really a shortcoming.

Nowadays bones are used in every engine.
Well even without vertex animations people can do great game prototypes

ScullCrack

bones aren't the best solution for everything. vertex animation has much better performance, it's better for facial animation,...

The problem with vertex animation is that it uses way too much memory. When we export our character models from bones to vertex animation for Gamestudio it is way too big. So I would recommend bones for as much as you can do with it. When you really need facial animation then morph animation are a good alternative and as far as I know, morph and vertex animation are the same technique. But I also know some games using bones for facial movement, though morphs are more common.

But this also means: Ratchet is right that you can create a prototype easily most of the time with bones, morphs are often only needed to create the additional details in the end. But really, a pulsing heart or a facial move can be done with bones as well.

memory consumtption is an issue of morphing (vertex) animation
but there are even more important dtrawbacks
#1 animation blending
You can blend two animations but it is not that easy
#2 animation transfer
You can not transfer the same animation to other modes ( ex .bvh files)

On the other hand I doubt that skeleton animation is a good solution for organic animation even for prototyping
You must use a lot of bones
In my opinion the best solution is to mix skeleton amd morphing animation in the same frames
The former for general movements the latter for details

Does anyone know how the facial animations are done in Half-Life 2?
At least, it was the first game coming with complex facial animation, as far as I know.

What is a reasonable system for facial animation in Unity?
Are there any examples?

From what I heard you have to use many bones or morph targets in Unity right now (just search in their forums to get some code / ideas). One may hope for an upcoming update - in their forum they asked for ideas about the animation system and how it should be improved so there might be some updates on this topic with an upcoming release (LINK)...

The source engine uses some sort of special animation system and thus no standard bones or something like that. They've also extended that system over time making it a quite complex thing which sort of simulates a face's muscles...

After the trouble at Garagegames/Instantaction, i played a little bit with Unity. But what i got was unacceptable logic.
Example:



With "if (GUI.Button (Rect.... " i should normally examine, if the object was created successfully or not, but not to get a click-event.


By the way:

I tried the mouselook-Example from the manual.



You want to see the result? Click here


Sorry, but Unity is not the Holy Grail.

I agree
As far as the programming logic is concerned Unity3d is not the best
The if(GUI.Button ... line is called twice for each frame
the first time to check if the button has been created the second time for the click event
It is not logic
More over the documentation is really poor for a 1500 usd engine
See for example my post about vertex manipulation
I was wrong, ok, but if you go through Unity docs and tuts , well it is not that evident
Well if you come from Torque ,the lack of doc should not be a problem for you

However the Unity3d strong points are speed and reliability not to mention the fantastic editor
I tested many other new engines : Leadwerks, game core, dxstudio, visual3d ...

None of them can compete with Unity

Yes, that's true. And it was a hard time for me to understand the big picture behind. But the programming style of Torque was very clear from the first day.



I agree. The engine itself and the editor are very good.

A barebone correct mouselook code is

What i like in Unity , is that you can make tools integrated in the editor directly and easily

It can be a new panels or tools and framework to manage things for you.
For example the last one is a Decal Framework !

Some Video :

Video Decal Framewok

What is great , is thate the decal can be animated
like blood or some paint color that falls on a wall !
I'm not sure if it is usefull , specially when you play some
FPS , where you don't stop to run and shoot all the time, without taking time to look at something

Anyway great framework among some other ones !

For people interested here is the thread :

Decal Framework