Mac and Linux (no, really!)

It must be close to a year since this has last been asked, but the indie gaming scene is evolving, so please just hear me out.

Mac and Linux gaming is growing. Linux gamers are desperate to get games that support Linux (source: the average Linux user pays more than twice as much for Humble Bundles as Windows users), and Mac support is increasingly common (between the huge success of Unity and many Valve games getting Mac support in recent times). More and more non-gamers are getting into games thanks to their iPhones, and most non-gamers I know (by a long shot, where I lived in Australia and here in Canada -- and most of my friends are non-gamers) own Macs. Their first taste of PC (as in personal computer, not Windows specifically) gaming will be on Macs.

I've received a lot of requests to have KarBOOM work on Linux, and more still for Mac support -- most of these potential customers don't own Windows PCs. I'm proud to be using GS, and when new developers ask about starting off in game development I always recommend GS. But I can't see myself sticking around for my next game if I can't get on Mac, and I'm sure that's why Dejobaan is using Unity now.

The Humble Bundle gets huge respect from gamers, not just as one of the first of its kind, but since every game in every bundle supports Windows, Mac and Linux. A lot of games make their Linux and/or Mac debut on Humble Bundle, and each bundle makes hundreds of thousands of sales. Getting in the Humble Bundle is a big deal for indie developers, but only available for those supporting Windows, Mac and Linux.

Finally, Unity does not run on Linux. With so many choices of engine to learn how to make games, and considering how daunting that process actually is, new developers (a big target for GS) want to start off on a cross-platform engine, and more experienced developers (such as Dejobaan) want to move to cross-platform engines. If a developer wants to support Linux, they move on past Unity. GS should catch them -- support for the 3 big personal computer OSes for those who want to make PC games, Windows or not.

As far as I know, a lot of GS features that previously relied on DirectX don't anymore. Rendering still does, and shaders use HLSL, but Cg is identical and works with OpenGL, so GS's extremely respectable shader programming features (which are my favourite part of GS) wouldn't be compromised as far as I can tell from all the way over here. I'm sure porting to more platforms isn't easy, but given you're working on Android stuff it's also certainly not too much to think about.

Anyway, thanks for reading,

Jibb

EDIT: Have some stats! (thanks, Error014, for finding most of these)
Source.

Source.

35/65? That's a 54% increase in downloads thanks to a larger market. Yes, I know it's not necessarily indicative. But it's also not necessarily a maximum, especially considering how much more noteworthy our games will appear to the Mac and (especially) Linux gaming communities than they will in the Windows market. Case in point: another game, Lugaru, by Wolfire (developers of the very highly anticipated Overgrowth, which will also support Mac and Linux):
Source.

That's right, 122% increase in sales with Mac and Linux support.

Oh, and here are the stats of every Humble Bundle to date. Check out the blue and green in those pie-charts!

I absolutly second that. Linux is great for game developers nowdays. Many Linux users are techies. The market for game development suites has potential. There are just very few big players there although the community wishes to have such things. It would be a great chance to get a unique characteristic to Gamestudio and open up new marking possibilites for both Conitec and Gamestudio users.

I think mobile platforms is a good sector for your game if it's done in less than half a year from now on or if it's already finished. Simply everyone, esp. the big publishers and studios, focus or start to focus this sector, thus the days of acceptance for low quality in terms of visuals or polishing "because it's just a mobile game" are over. The effort to create and the complexity of mobile games increase steadily, the statement that simple games can be successful there is worthless because there are millions of them, the market is already flooded.

Instead, I think we should focus on developing games for PC (/ Mac/ Linux). The market becomes smaller as publishers focus on console, mobile and social gaming and most modern games try to be as cinematic and accessible as possible. They ignore the market of millions of core gamers that often would prefer deep (maybe not easily accessible) gameplay, gamers who'd prefer a Quake (f.i. with simple/ old-school graphics) over a COD or people who are looking for games such as Cave Story or (2D) Metroid.
Thus I think we can target an audience of millions of people, who are btw. a different kind of gamers that are aware of and value indie games (where everything above 99cent or even for free isn't too expensive), when we develop f.i. simple or complex sidescrollers, highscore based games such as AaaAaAAA!! that don't require a lot of content and long single player campaigns or old-school fun shooters, esp. games for the non-casual gamer.

According to this I heavily support a port to non-Windows computers over a port to a mobile platform.

EDIT: The feature mobile/ multiple platform support probably is a pretty good advertising for GameStudio these days, but I doubt that any A8/ A9 game on Android will be a good advertising for GameStudio because those games are short-living and easily forgotten together with their developers and engines.

Amen

Agreed on all points.

I'd much rather have Mac and Linux support than Android. Make it happen, Conitec!

That would be awesome - and a even the announcement of something like that would be a great present

I think Android is based on Linux (Kernel 2.6), isn`t it? So it should be relativly easy to support both Linux and Android.

Android != Ubuntu or similar Linux distributions

Having an android version means having a opengl ES renderer and that means no more directx dependency and then that means easier mac/linux port. This either means gamestudio completely switches to OpenGL even on windows or supports both directx and opengl. That could also mean CG support for shaders.

That also means either a lite-c compiler for different processors and platforms(android/linux). or maybe it could be that we are returning to C-Script.

I mean, i hope so.

I don't care about the technical riffraff (and frankly, I have no clue) but I care about reaching as many users as possible. So I agree with all of the original points and hope that Conitec listens!

Lite-C is the biggest advantage of Gamestudio because it gives programmers the power not only to write ganmes, but also applications and tools. It`s fast and reliable. I don`t want to loose that.

The last part was a wish about all of the post, not the c-script part

some os market share data, only for you (based on web clients):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
and
http://www.netmarketshare.com/
so I would be really happy with a 3dgs pc browser plugin...

@sivan: HTML5 + WebGL means a GS browser plugin would not be well-received by players -- people don't want to download a different plugin for every few different games they want to play, and HTML5 means they don't need to. Yes, Unity did it, but that's easily explained -- they beat HTML5 and Flash 11 by being released way earlier.

That request is unrelated to ours, so please start a new thread if you really want to push it.

Uhm... XBox360? PS3? 70% of the overall revenue is made with console games. In my eyes these features are more important than linux compatibility! Mac... okay, but linux?!

Linux is important, because there are not many good engines supporting it. It`s an open source OS with open source software. Therefore usual Linux gamers don`t want to have a "Gears of War" or other common games. Many users are developers and enjoy playing indie and/or hobby games. The market for a tool like Gamestudio is huge.
The most successful and highest-rated games on Linux are "Battle of Wesnoth", "OpenTTD", "Quake Live", "Nexuiz", "Super Meat Boy" and "World of Goo". It`s a wonderful playground for indies and hobbyists.

XBox 360 and PS3 (the latter in particular) are difficult to develop for, have all sorts of licensing restrictions, and are virtually useless unless you have a development PS3 or XBox 360 (those are hard to come by AFAIK).

The option is provided by other popular commercial engines -- going in that direction means GS is just playing "catch up". By supporting all major PC operating systems (which Unity doesn't), it's not just exposing us to a 15-20% larger market -- it's exposing us to markets where games are relatively sparse and gamers are plentiful and desperate(/generous).

EDIT: Ninja'd by Rondidon, but I think we both have slightly different points, so I'll leave mine as is

Have you ever seen the incredible number of indie games on then XBox Live Marketplace? I bet there are more players than on Linux. Ask yourself: Why are there no good engines supporting linux games! And why are there so many supporting consoles! Got it?

And even if linux gamers pay more, they are a minority. When 10 linux gamers pay 10$ for an indie game and 1000 windows users pay 2$ every developer would chose windows as plattform!

The age group is completely different? Kidding me? A big group of gamers are kids at the age of ? - 16. How many of them have a linux system??? And how many have an XBox or a PS3?

Can't agree with you Rondidon, in no point!

PadMalcom, adult gamers (particularly 20s) are a much much bigger group than 16 and under. Also, 16 and under have less awareness of what's out there (they tend to just see whatever gets advertised on TV) and less control over what they get (they earn less money and/or rely on gifts from parents who found out there's a new FIFA/Madden/NHL/etc).

In terms of engine support, you want GS to work on entering a saturated market that most of us won't be able to develop for rather than an under-utilised tech-savvy market who look for what they want instead of getting told what they want by publishers with big marketing bucks? I don't.

EDIT: This article is relevant. XBox has huge gamer-share, but its user-base is less indie-friendly. Much less. Linux users, on the other hand, are all about the work of the little guy.

An important argument.
Porting Gamestudio to consoles is already much too late. A console port wouldn`t be accepted because all of the big players already develop with engines that have 5 years+ of Know-How on console support. Porting Gamestudio to consoles wouldn`t make sense. The Indie console market is much too small for Gamestudio`s audience.

The mystery of being successful is to go another way than other companys do. To get a unique characteristic. Getting a strong player in the PC market and serving that marketing niche with high quality software (and Gamestudio is high quality software) can open up new possibilities for Gamestudio`s future. Supporting Windows, Mac and Linux is not only a "cool thing", but also important for marketing. Supporting Windows and (only) Android.. well, that seems to be at least a bit risky to me. I don`t see the "big" marketing potential for Gamestudio on that.

There`s a lot of work to be done. I hope that Conitec can manage that all. Hopefully they sell enough Gamestudio copys at the moment.

@JibbSmart: I'm working quite a lot with linux, even right now that I'm writing this post. In my company there are many professionals working with linux but no one who ever said: "Oh if there was a Portal 2 on linux...". I even got some of them as steam friends meaning even the hardcore administrators tend to use Windows for gaming.

@Rondidon: Too late? Market too small? Think about AaaaAAAAaaaa on consoles! That would be nice. Have you ever heard anything about the Editor of this horror game amnesia? It supports Linux development but where are the games? Why don't studios say "Wow what an opportunity, we are developing for linux!!"... Because it is a too small market. Just my oppinion...

It`s about target group-oriented thinking and getting a unique characteristic to Gamestudio. As JibbSmart and me have written before.


Linux and Mac are perfect markets for Gamestudio. Gamestudio is not an Unreal Engine 3 when it comes to usability for professionals. Everybody knows that. For Conitec and JCL, it`s all about finding the right marketing niche.

Almost all Linux users are techies! I believe they would love to have (and pay for) an engine like Gamestudio to play around with (or develop seriously).

I love that you said that, because this means I can do this awesome reply. Here is what they (developers of Amnesia) actually said:



Perhaps not quite as enthusiastic, but given the tone of the rest of the article, I think it's pretty much that.



Here's some more hard facts regarding distribution of sales when targeting Mac, Linux and Windows.

Frictional Games (Amnesia):

source: link

2D Boy (World of Goo):


source: link.


Put in other words, not targeting Mac and Linux could mean losing 35% of your downloads, potentially more so in actual money (since Linux users are, if you trust the data, willing to pay more).
Anectodial evidence is nice and all, but not very helpful. Here's another story: I know two people who own linux and would love to see more games on them - both of them NOT buying games they were interested in because they were only avaible for Windows.
This proves nothing, of course - just as your story does not make anyone any smarter. But the data given above is a much better indication, since it's sample size is actually big enough for useful conclusions.




PadMalcom, we've discussed the problems with console-development before a thousand times. Short story: Without the platform owner (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo - take your pick) giving you explicit permission AND a devkit, you won't make it far.
This means that porting to those platforms would benefit at the most the absolute best games we have here. Perhaps not even them.
Mac and Linux support is someone everyone can benefit, and something that has proven time and time again to be worth it. If Conitec were to invest that time into porting to XBox/PS3/Wii instead, that would be wasted time for 99,999% of the community - perhaps (IMHO) for all of us.

If you still wish for that, could you at least do it in a new thread? This one should be about porting to Mac/Linux.

Thank you. That`s 100% correct.

Again: I believe that many Linux users would pay for a great game developing suite like GameStudio. Techies and Open Source fans want to develop, not only to play. Most likely the market for a tool like Gamestudio is even bigger than the Windows market.

I am pretty sure that this thread would be taken more serious by jcl if there would be no console [or whatever] discussion...

And PS3 has a really complicated sdk [the reason why they needed to send out sony-teams to the dev at the beginning], xbox360's license is also quite odd if you are not using XNA [if I remember right] and wii license is also not really cheap - have you never wondered why you have to "ask" for the price of the license?

Linux and Mac are the way to go!

id software always used to get a lot of business from Linux users because almost all of their games ran natively on Linux. For every issue of the Linux Magazine that talks about gaming on Linux, id gets mentioned simply because they support Linux on so many levels.

If Gamestudio allowed users to develop games for Mac and Linux as well as Windows, it wouldn't just increase its user appeal and value but also its presence in the world of game development.

Since we currently don't support Mac and Linux, it's perhaps worth thinking about it the other way around: Targeting Mac and Linux could mean 54% more downloads of our games.

I hope JCL writes three or four sentences about how difficult it would be to port Gamestudio to Linux (or Mac) and a potential timeframe.

Another game, Lugaru, by Wolfire (developers of the very highly anticipated Overgrowth, which will also support Mac and Linux):

Source.

once there is an android port with an opengl renderer it probably also wouldn't be much of a problem to get the engine running on osx and linux. (i don't know what gui toolkit they will use for the new WED. hopefully not mfc again. :))

but the more platforms you support the more maintainance work will have to be done and this will suck with such a small team.

The less platforms you support the less Gamestudio-copys you sell. And that does neither help Gamestudio`s future nor the budget for the needful increasement of the team size and development speed.

I want to add another word on the console topic to finally close this idiocy:
Developing for consoles is the most dumb thing you can do. first, just ebcause you can do it doesnt mean that the console developers let you. secondly, even if they let you, you still need a licence. the cheapest out there would be nintendo Wi, with 5000 bucks per licence a year.
next is microsoft with the XBLA retail licence (developing for free is free, but that wont help either of us) 15 000 dollars and then there are the 35 000 bucks a licence a year for the sony system.
and if you can afford those licenses then by all means you dont need gamestudio.

now here is for the interesting part:
Errors numbers are safe and sound, and 35% of downloas and sales equal a load of money. furthermore, it just proves that the engine needs to evolve.
what i see here is that if gamestudio supports mac and linux, adding additional support for androids, windows phones and iphones aswell as tablets should bea easy, since

a.) mac=mac. there is a difference, shure, but thats easy to overcome if a basica mac support exists and

b.) with a working linux kernel you can port to smartphones more easily. it still is work, but it works.

oh and btw, PS3 and Wii both support the linux kernel. I am doing a freeware homebrew Wii and PC game so you can trust me on that one...

@sPIKe: Do you really think all the XBox-Arcade game developers spent 15.000$ for a license? Can't believe that...

@Rondidon: JCL surely read the title of this post and though "Not of interest at the moment". He stated in the AUM 100 that Android is interesting, nothing else. And if you want an XBox port, you can have it... for money.

To all of you: Do you really think you have more experience in the game engine market than the guys from Conitec/oP Group? I think everything they do they do on purpose.

@PadMalcom:The same could be said in response to any feature request in the Future forum, including your desire to have GS work on XBox. Still, Conitec has a reputation for taking community requests into account in development.

Do you think you have more experience than Wolfire? They say:Don't forget Super Meat Boy's story, or that Cthulhu Saves The World made more on PC in 6 days than it did on XBox in a year.

@jcl: Any thoughts? There are a lot of good stats here, and the stats of every Humble Bundle to date seem to support them.

I love GS, I really do. But given the community feedback I've had, I don't want to make another Windows-only game when KarBOOM is finished. It'd be absolutely amazing if KarBOOM could support Mac and Linux. I'm certainly not going to port it to another engine, but I'm definitely considering cross platform solutions for whatever comes next.

My desire to have GS on XBox is already fulfilled But, okay, I got your point! After all I expect that JCL won't tell you anything about newly supported platforms except that they are working on an android port which will not even be finished in months but in years.

Let`s continue this discussion somewhere else, PadMalcom. It`s not a personal thing, but I don`t think that a "feature request" forum is the right place for this.

Why nit completing and selling a game first on PC !
Than if success comes, think in Mac, not before.

Because I'd have to code the game again from scratch and use another engine or my own solution to work on Mac and/or Linux. If I can do that, I might as well just use a cross-platform solution to begin with.

agreed. i already have 5 completed games for PC out there, and i will not re-do them. if i can just push a button and have them compiled for Mac or linux, well, there is a different story. even if its more complicated than that, this should be an option.

ps.: i dont belive that, i know it:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/8...rtnerschaft.pdf

page 33. btw this entire document is a SHORT guideline what you need to become alicensed 360 dev. Can we please just stop this nonsense now and concentrate on the topic at hand, namely the simple fact that it would only help everyone if GS would support mac and linux?

@jcl:
Is there an official Conitec response? Is this a case of further research being done before giving an answer, or of such a request not being worth an answer?

I've edited the first post to include most of the stats that were brought up in this thread, and Rondidon has brought attention to a few of the more significant points by quoting them again so they shouldn't be hard to miss.

yes, i also think so. they probably know the market so well that they have given up.

Somewhat disappointing.

jcl, I just want to say it's disappointing that you never responded to this thread, even if it's not a surprising outcome at this stage in the community's history.

This thread saw lots of good data and support, and the only naysayer(s) here settled on the argument that you know the market better than us (reasonable), which comes with the (unreasonable) argument that you know the market better than the developers of much more successful commercial engines, as well as very successful independent games, who not only support more desktop platforms but attribute much of their success to that support (yeah, we didn't make this argument without sources).

A "no, this isn't feasible and is not planned for the foreseeable future" earns more respect (or, depending on the reader, less disrespect) than ignoring the thread altogether.

Totally AGREED, we're already making the transition to unity, however, i would feel alot better if SOMETHING could be announced that i can give to teammembers as a reason for staying GS;

One of the main arguments FOR switching is:
"dude, we can easily put our game on this platform!" and "dude, the community doesnt feel like 10 people"

I honestly believe that only the core people who understand GS, remain here now, every time I see a new face (determined by number of posts), they disappear;

I keep hearing "we're working on it", "we have that planned", "conitec will do this" BUT honestly at this point, I really wouldn't be surprised if this engine is being maintained by ONE guy who has OBVIOUSLY lost his interest in the GAME CREATION field;

I mean, I know alot of SINGLE MAN engines with wayyyy more progress than gamestudio has now;

What I dont get is, there has been SEVERAL offers by current community users to help PIMP gamestudio, Ive seen offers to:
- help redesign website
- redesign logos
- help remodel ALL your BS starter models which you SEEM to think has a purpose
- create showcase videos to show the best of GS [that ONE video that was tacked on here isnt an excuse to say 'we're done with that'
- you dont seem to give a damn about your users and I dont care what anyone else says

I dont know if the problem is PRIDE, you dont want to accept help or what, this engine just feels like its a parttime hobby of someone with "better things to do"

I believe I answered this often enough, but anyway: A Gamestudio standard version for Mac, Linux, and consoles was not planned, is not planned, and most likely won't be ever planned, for the simple reason that we see no sufficient market and demand for such a version. Besides, I hate consoles .

+1

I don't care for consoles - and I don't care for smart phones, too -, but the whole point of this thread was to show how important the Mac and Linux sectors are for (indie) game developer. Please re-read the first two posts of this thread.
It's not only that there may be a few Mac and Linux users who buy GameStudio, but (probably) a lot of Windows users who would buy your development suit because of the support for Mac/ Linux.

While it's very disappointing to see that the engine won't be ported (really, I wouldn't mind if the editors stayed Windows-only, if only the engine could run on Mac and Linux), I'd like to thank you for the (belated, but still appreciated) reply to this issue.

It's nice to have some closure on this, though. Not sure yet how this affects my personal Acknex-future (the project after my next one), though... Mac- and Linuxsupport is something thats pretty important to me.

Oh well. At least now we know where we stand. Again, thanks for that.

Direct Linux support would be cool ... we checked our Meteor Mess 3D project with WINE and it run perfectly AND with higher FPS than running it under Windows.

Thanks for the info, jcl. It's disappointing, but it's good to know as I plan future projects and as I work on KarBOOM.

Made my day

Surely Microsoft payed a lot of money for keeping 3dgs Windows only

Imo an android port doesn´t make much sense without an iOS port.

This decision is based on the question if you plan to make money with your apps. In general, iOS users are willing to pay, android users are not. Nevertheless, it is up to find a way to make money with games (addvertisement, in game currency, ...).

Or, perhaps, Android users will gladly pay money for something they want, and will even be generous with it. But I do think if they're going mobile, they should go properly mobile and support more platforms. Who's going to come here for their first mobile game dev experience if they can't put it on iPhone?

Similarly, how many developers aware of the current indie gaming scene are going to opt for a Windows-only engine for desktop/laptop gaming? How many developers, despite being Windows users, are going to move on from GS because of the vocal demand of Linux and Mac-based indie gamers? Dejobaan did, and I will. (Other users have, including darkinferno very recently, but I don't know how many were specifically because of the crossplatform issue).

It does seem strangely like you think we were asking for console support, which is not the case at all. PadMalcolm went offtopic with that suggestion and Rondidon, Error014, Rei Ayanami, sP|Ke and I all argued against it (Rei even expressed concern that PadMalcolm's suggestion would lead you to misunderstand our request).

We're just looking to have our PC games work on non-Windows PCs.

maybe Windows-8 support will be a question soon

it already works on win8

fine. I thought it is not tested yet.

I don't mind for Mac and Linux also , but i recognise it could be cool and gain some customers i think.

I mean, I know alot of SINGLE MAN engines with wayyyy more progress than gamestudio has now


I also know that and i have another license of an engine done by one man and going fast; BUT
It's a matter of personnal taste, choice, and perhaps people that prefer something lot more easy to use and to understand.

It's like DBPRO Community you can't say to them , there are better engines
Some people using without having any world / terrain editor, but they make great things for some of them.
And the main point : THEY HAVE LOT OF PLEASURE AND FUN with it.
So it was an old discussion, lot of us wanted lot of things, better 3DGS etc ... but 3DGS is 3DGS , it has is own rate of updates, it has at final his own strong points and weak points.


Nobody prevents you from having several licenses of different engines depending on the fun you have with and your taste

Even if Conitec is one man behind, they have other important products like "Zorro" , but A8 is still improving, even if more slow.
When i see Supercan game, i know we can reach big quality games, i don't need UT3 or other big engine power fr now.

We know A8 have some big weak points in terms of workflow, and i hope it will handle them instead of just having them in forecast for ages.
But it keeps the strong points like the easy and fast script system, community, magazine etc ...

Indeed! At the risk of boring you, jcl, could you please confirm that you've understood our concern and you've re-read the (updated) first post? Thanks!

I confirm that I read the first post and understood it.

Good.

As you've read the first post, there is a relatively high demand for a game engine that at least runs on those systems, even if you keep the editors Windows-based. In the foreseeable future there will be a game development suit that features "complete" PC support, because the rivals never rest.
This is my last post in this thread, I will stop bothering you for now, but please think about this concern again when you're done with the Android port.

I was wondering about this as well. I want my games to run on Mac and Linux, but I don't care about the editors. Any cross-platform developer will have a Windows PC anyway. We'd need Mac and Linux compilers, but that's it.

I'm sure jcl is getting quite bothered by this thread being bumped over and over, but... well, I was thinking about what it'd take to have Lite-C and GS work on other platforms...

A renderer rewrite, for sure. But they're already porting to Android, so they know how to deal with an OpenGL renderer. SDL 1.2 is a stable, fast, free, low-level (within reason) layer for compiling the same code on Windows, Mac and Linux. It gives access to OpenGL, sockets, multithreading, sound, gamepads, keyboard and mouse input, all without dealing with OS-specific details. Super Meat Boy, Dwarf Fortress, Lugaru, Overgrowth, Penumbra: Overture, World of Goo, Doom 3, FreeSpace 2, Quake 4, Unreal Tournament (and 2003 and 2004), Sim City 3000, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, and many other games use SDL (some of them just for the Linux or Mac version).

The compiler makes things a bit more complicated, of course. But it could also make things simpler: Lite-C is effectively C/C++ minus some really nice features users have been requesting for a while, plus wait(1) and some automatic pointer-stuff with parameters for functions. We could get the best of both worlds if Lite-C just used GCC (thus supporting all the nice C++ features if we want them) with a pre-compile stage that dealt with pointers in parameters and inserted some stack-walking function calls to provide wait(1) functionality (this is probably where I sound extremely naive ). It'd also have to rename our main function so that your main rendering/stack-building loop was being used instead of ours, of course.

Shaders, as we've mentioned before, could be compiled with Cg, which is pretty much identical to HLSL.

The last hurdle is the editors, and this is probably the biggest one since they probably rely a lot on the Windows API for all their menu shizzle. At a guess, this could be the reason we're getting GS Android and not GS Linux -- no one expects the editors to actually run on Android. But, as Superku mentioned, we just want our games to run on other platforms, not the editors. A Linux compiler and a Mac compiler would be all we need. We're not arguing for game dev on Mac and Linux. We're arguing for gaming on Mac and Linux. Dejobaan didn't leave to make games on Mac, they left to make games that run on Mac (to grossly simplify things).

In short, given the editors don't need to be cross-platform, and an OpenGL renderer of sorts is already in the works for Android, I believe the compiler is probably the only real obstacle between Windows-only GS and "PC gaming" GS.

I think that the non-suitability for Linux and Mac applications is the biggest impediment for Gamestudio (along with the editors). Fact is: Even small publishers with the focus on adventure, casual and low-budget simulator games expect full PC support (PC+Mac and sometimes Linux) from their developers nowdays. They particulary demand it because it increases the target group.

There`s a reason why many Gamestudio developers are seriously thinking about moving to other game engines. It`s not the engine itself and it`s not Lite-C, but in most cases the bottleneck with the platforms.


I`ve got some feeling that they`re working on exactly that. Click-your-game-together and develop small Android apps on your Android tablet PC and smartphone. Could be a market niche .

For Mac development you need a Mac to test the game on.
(If you think that you dont need a testmachine, then you are not taking the development seriously anyhow)
That limits the userbase quite a lot (a big argument for not investing into it)

Linux is cool, but not a musthave for development.
(a "tested on and optimized for Wine" sticker can be a workaround if you really must have it working there too)

Mobile development is a totally different playfield, tech and preformance wise.
Most here cant even make a game on the PC without some impact on FPS.
Dont want to imagine how it would run on a smartphone.

Its a different approach. I dont see the advantage of the gamestudio concept or tools for mobile development.
It would have to be totally different then, wich
basically is just wishing for a new gameengine and toolset then.
But there are tools out there already for that purpose for quite some time..

FWIW, the Mac AppStore is full with games "ported" via Wine bottles. For example The Witcher, which runs astonishingly good on my MacBook Pro (granted, its the latest one =/).
So yeah, you can have Mac Support if you want.

I'm well aware of this, and I kinda assumed everyone was. GS markets itself to beginners and professionals. Professionals will buy a Mac without blinking if they need it to test their game properly. I know I will -- there's been enough demand for KarBOOM from Mac users to justify the expense.

Also, indies often get friends or random people on the internet to help test their games, so even a beginner who refuses to buy a Mac would have no trouble getting their game tested if the Mac compiler ran on Windows.

I had assumed that a Mac would be necessary for compilation. If that is the case, I think very few people are without access to a Mac (a friend or family member, for example). If it's not the case then even better!

Just going to add my 2 cents... A port to other operating systems would with out a doubt break most code that has been done so this would not be a good thing for those of us that are doing this to break into the industry. If your that interested in other platforms (and yes I am interested don't get me wrong here) then there are other established platforms that cover mac android Xbox and iPhone. If you want to do a multi platform game that go that route. I may do that for some games but I would not do that for all games and therefore this development package is well suited for that market. Also the "other" game platform has a tenancy to crash... In the market I am in a crash is not acceptable in any circumstance (game audience is 65% women 22-45). Also if you don't know this type of information then you may want to find out. While this may change in the future if you want to be successful at this then you need to know your audience and what platform they want to make an informed decision. Asking for new platforms just because it would be "cool" is just a waist of everyone's time. The only platform that 3DGS would be good to port to would be Xbox. And the way to get that done is to create a fund to pay for it to be developed... If I remember correctly it would take about $70k to get jcl to do this. I for one would pledge $100 for doing this. Now if you really want this to happen then as the say down here in the south usa... "buck up or shut up"

It'd only break your code if you're using DirectX functions AND GS stops using DirectX for Windows versions. Yes, Windows.h wouldn't work on other platforms either, but there's no reason those using WinAPI functions can't stick to Windows-only if they want.

Have another read through the thread, look at the pictures, and make sure you understand the first post. That should address any concerns you have about knowing our audience, how relevant XBox and iPhone are to the discussion, and whether any of us are exploring other options.

Just pre-ordered Overgrowth for the new linux-support.
And I'm not the only one. The forums are filled with people saying things like "I pre-ordered for the linux version". I think in times where good linux games are rare, linux is a huge market for us indies. Too bad this will never happen to 3dgs.

I'm not for why ? ...

Well ... there are things on forecast page , that are here from two years or more like some terrain/vegetation editor ... Nothing appeared and there are always on the forecast

3DGS would need a great boost in terms of interface/tools, custom easy plugin/panels system (like LEadWerks 3D going to that direction, Unity 3D already features that) : It means lot of easy to use tools made by users like :
- complete 2D game solution
- Editor helpers
- RPG complete plugin system
- visual programming plugins
etc ...

That way a 3D engine grows very fast because there are a lot of users selling or giving these plugins.

Why im' against Linux/Apple ...
It needs lot of code rewrite and OpenGL also.

ANd really the mobile market is exploding ... What Conitec needs is really fast some mobile solution ... could it be Android or Apple.
All other 3D engine have that ... some indies engines like ESenthel have it , even LeadWErks 3D is going ot have it also soon .... Only another Torque 3D have only some 2D mobile solution, but thta's better than no mobile support !

This opens lot of doors to indie devs, little games can be lot more easy to make than targetting a complex and quality PC tittle.
And the selling mode is great on Apple Store also.
Some people after beegin success, made some little successfull studio !

3DG needs like i said a lot more "easy workflow" for 3D artists and people wanting to produce a game than coding.
Real Time Terrain editor, real time character physics capsule editor like in some other engines, real time physics adjustements for simple primitives etc ...

Well i really think Linux and Mac can really really wait ...

And Conitec is one man project helped by users on 3DGS not a big team, so saving ressources to improve it and bring on the mobile i think it's a lot lot more good strategic choice than going in all directions at same time also !

I just hope 3DGS to adopt some today features like some totally new interface, plugin system ... just a wish !

Steam's coming to Linux, and there's already been talk on these forums about the upcoming Unity 4, but surprisingly little discussion about the fact that it will also support Linux.

Both of these will be fantastic for the growth of Linux gaming, which was already well-worth a developer's time anyway (as we've discussed too many times already). This also shows that Valve and the Unity team see its value.

Given we already have jcl's final word on this, I think it'd make sense to move this to the Game Business forum for further discussion about the viability of other platforms and what effects those platforms have on the developer.

@ratchet:Ratchet, this has already been discussed and addressed:They already have (or are already working on) OpenGL for GS in some capacity. Perhaps the compiler side will be quite some work, but the very fact that you mentioned OpenGL as an obstacle to this request suggests you have little interest in the discussion that has already happened.