Wed scaling. - feature request.

Posted By: msl_manni

Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/13/06 07:43

The choice of having models as level geometry is a very welcome feature.

Wed scales uniformly in all directions. But I would like to scale the same model in a particular axis only or scale differently in different axis.

Please add this feature in the next update .
Posted By: old_bill

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/13/06 13:22

This already works.
Just select the axis at the top of wed in the tools section.

old_bill
Posted By: msl_manni

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/13/06 13:58

Can't find the thing you are saying.

Btw I am asking for is model-mdl scaling and not block scaling.
Posted By: ulillillia

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/13/06 14:18

This "thing" he's referring to looks like a plus sign made of arrows and it's located on the top toolbar. When you put the mouse arrow over it, it should say "restrict" or something.
Posted By: msl_manni

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/13/06 14:43

I already know that but it is useful for blocks or prefabs.

I am trying to scale model files in a particular direction.

And what I see is that it does a uniform scale of models.

Even if you open properties of model and goto scale section then one can see that the scale is available for one direction only and other axis are grayed out.

which is not the case for prefab and blocks.
Posted By: Dan Silverman

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/13/06 16:36

I don't think scaling a model non-uniformly in WED is the appropriate thing to do. When you scale a model in this manner you would end up also stretching the texture/skiin in an undesirable way. If you need your model to be scaled a specific amount along a specific axis, then open your modeling program and do it there. In fact, you can create your entire level in the modeling program to specs and then simply export the pieces and put it together in WED. Frankly, if you are using models for level geometry, then there is no real need to build or scale any of it in WED at all. Do it all in your modeling app.
Posted By: msl_manni

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/14/06 03:49

I am asking for this feature because I want to build level in parts and is specially useful with rocks.

1) use the same model.
2) save space
3) save time
4) save load time
5) having different skins gives more power.
6) collision detection would be faster if the model involved has less polygons.
etc........

Scaling, rotating in different directions gives the impression that these are different models but saves me a lot of extra work and resources. And again save time because if one is not of proper scale or rotation then I will have to redo touches to the model.

And this has to be a wed feature and will not solve the problem any other way.
Posted By: ulillillia

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/14/06 09:38

Have you tried using this in an action:

Code:

define x_scale, skill1;
define y_scale, skill2;
define z_scale, skill3;

//uses:  x_scale, y_scale, z_scale
action scale_me
{
	my.scale_x = my.skill1;
	my.scale_y = my.skill2;
	my.scale_z = my.skill3;
	wait(1);
	my.dynamic = off; // speeds up rendering, if unchanging
}


This is one way of doing it. Just assign this action to the model and change the first 3 skill values to set the scale factor.
Posted By: Dan Silverman

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/14/06 10:45

Quote:

I am asking for this feature because I want to build level in parts and is specially useful with rocks.

1) use the same model.
2) save space
3) save time
4) save load time
5) having different skins gives more power.
6) collision detection would be faster if the model involved has less polygons.
etc........

Scaling, rotating in different directions gives the impression that these are different models but saves me a lot of extra work and resources. And again save time because if one is not of proper scale or rotation then I will have to redo touches to the model.

And this has to be a wed feature and will not solve the problem any other way.



Very incorrect. This does not have to be a WED feature at all. Reusing the models will not save on polygons at all. Each face will still be counted and used. Reusing models will save on video memory consumption because of shared memory, though. Therefore, even if you set ALL of this up in your modeling program (i.e. scaling, rotating the models there) you will end up with the exact same results as if you tried to put this together in WED.

For example, if I built a level out of the same wall model by duplicating, moving, scaling and rotating the wall and did this in my modeling app I would end up with the same results as if I had done this in WED. It would make no difference. Therefore, since you are dealing with models, it is BEST to simply do it in the modeling application instead of doing this in WED.

Quote:

1) use the same model.



You can use the same model over and over in your modeling app as well. As stated above, no matter how many times you reuse the model, whether in WED or a modeling app, all polygonal faces will be taken into consideration. However, if 10 models share the same texture/skin then it counts as ONE whether you create the level in your modeling app or in WED. So you are not going to save any video memory or anything by put this all together in WED vs. your modeling app.

Quote:

2) save space



You are not going to save any space. It will be the same. If you are concerned about using parts, then export from your modeling app in parts.

Quote:

3) save time



No time will be saved. You would actually save time by doing it all in one app ... your modeling app.

Quote:

4) save load time



You are not going to save load time. The polygon count will be the same and the texture memory usage will be the same.

Quote:

5) having different skins gives more power.



What prevents you from using a different skin on any model from within the modeling app? You have even more power to create the entire level in your modeling app than parts here and there and assembling in WED.

Quote:

6) collision detection would be faster if the model involved has less polygons.



That makes no sense. The model will have has many polygons in WED as it would in your modeling app. Just build wisely in your modeling app and the entire level can (and should be) built there (for levels made from models).
Posted By: ventilator

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/14/06 11:14

dan, he talks about instances. it doesn't sound like your exporter from max (or whatever) automatically exports instances. or does it? of course instances take less space, loading time,... than separate models.

maybe he also doesn't have a modeling program were he can do all of this.

ulillillia is right. only wed doesn't support scaling non-uniformingly. per script you could do it. or per editing the wmp with a text editor.
Posted By: msl_manni

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/14/06 12:03

I know all the solutions that you wise people have come up with, are not useful in my case.

Dan ,

It's all about re-using the same resource many and in different ways. If I can create a level with say 5 models and have say use it for 1000 different situations then the solution you are saying would need 5000 individual models. Think about the loading time and HD space needed for those models . And dont forget the time I would have to spend modelling it. And if situation arise for changes then all time that would be wasted on tweaking that model.

And when I say collision detection would be faster if the model involved has less polygons. That means only the models whose AABOX is in direct intersection, is checked with polygonal collisions. Try to create a big level with all geometry in model, and the same level with smaller models, then the level with smaller models or parts model should run faster .

If you still cant see what I am talking about then ask and I will post a picture for your refrence .

ulillillia,

It's a solution that wont let me see the level in real time .

ventilator,

You have got the idea what I am talking about . But you are wrong about the modeling program and as such. Because I see things differently and will like to do as I see fit .

Btw thanks all of you who are trying to solve a situation that needs only a minor feature change on the part of conitec. And that would be to let the user have the freedom of scaling his models as he likes, uniform or non-uniform.
Posted By: ulillillia

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/14/06 12:10

Quote:

I am asking for this feature because I want to build level in parts and is specially useful with rocks.

1) use the same model.



Using the same model just saves mainly on video memory. Often, you're better off having the same model and it's variants done in your modelling program. It may seem like 12 polygons for a cube, but having 300 visible at once will have a major effect on the frame rate. Putting 300 such cubes visible in a single model greatly improves rendering speed (and between 2000 and 5000 polygons has peak performance, according to a benchmarking experiment).

Quote:

2) save space



Saving disk space by using the same model in varying ways is indeed true

Quote:

3) save time



I wouldn't know if it would save time, but it would have a small saving, but nothing considerable.

Quote:

4) save load time



This I'm not sure on (unconfirmed). It's been so long that I've worked with 3D....

Quote:

5) having different skins gives more power.



Skins can be dynamically changed through script.

Quote:

6) collision detection would be faster if the model involved has less polygons.
etc........



Fewer polygons would speed up collision detection if polygon-precise collision is used, but is never the case (I don't know for sure) for bounding boxes being used instead.

Quote:

Scaling, rotating in different directions gives the impression that these are different models but saves me a lot of extra work and resources. And again save time because if one is not of proper scale or rotation then I will have to redo touches to the model.

And this has to be a wed feature and will not solve the problem any other way.



I can see why this would be handy. With a script, you have to base it on theory and do a few calculations to find out where the entity would go. With WED, one could visually see it and it would be much easier.
Posted By: msl_manni

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 06/14/06 12:50

I never said that the model would have only 8 or 80 polygons. And believe me when I say that collision detection would be faster for polygon-precise collisions.

In a game the collision detection is the most time consuming part that slows down the game. And where there are many polygons that are used, then the time to check for every polygon that might collide, is great.

I think that, instead of giving advantages, I should have only asked for this feature to be implemented. Because all the interpretations that have been done, are your own specific point of view and vague in nature and dont co-relate with what I am putting forward.

An example what this feature would help in, is people like small demo downloads and instant play startup.
Posted By: msl_manni

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 10/09/06 05:44

I would like to voice my request once again for the feature. We should be able to scale in either direction - x,y,z. As 3dgs is going for the, all model level. we should have the feature to scale in even a single axis.
Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 10/10/06 00:20

Well, as for most of the purposes such a feature could have, do as ulillillia suggested ... simply add that script, change the skills and voíla ... only disadvantage is that you can't see it in action straight away, I give you that. So yes, for aligning models by scaling them, this is not the right solution. I think a model scaling in WED is somewhat useful, especially for fences or model walls. Since we can tile skins too, this would be pretty neat indeed.

However, for random things like your example rocks, the script Uli provided is good enough, isn't it?

Cheers
Posted By: msl_manni

Re: Wed scaling. - feature request. - 10/10/06 06:00

It's for situations for creating a pile of rocks, or mountains. Roads of rock for mountain area or the very well known american rocks pile(I dont know the location name). It's for situations where precise scaling is needed to adjust more than one models. Like ledges in the mountains. I think these are enough of examples that would persuade conitec to implement the feature.
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