I'm not a hardware nerd...

Posted By: Loopix

I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/21/07 20:43

...that's why I'm asking some advices!

I'm planing to buy a new workstation (medium class). It should be able to deal with all major 3d tasks (not superhighpoly cinematic stuff) and it'll be nice if it could run next-gen games fluent enough.

I was thinking about a Dell Dimension 9200 with an Intel core duo (quad core E6600) 2.4, 2 Gig RAM, 256MB Nvidia G-Force 8600 GTS (PCI-e), 2x250 Gig SATA RAID 0 HD's.

I know...the graphics accelerator is not the best but it should do...no??

...Or would it be more clever to homebrew my PC? If yes, wich main components would you recomend (medium price/performance class!)?

Thanks for helping!

Posted By: D3D

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/21/07 20:57

Why not the E6850 it's sometimes cheaper than E6600 and run faster on 1333 fsb. The 8600GTS is a good card and also Vista ready. I have both 8600 and 8800, the 8600 seem to work the same as my previous AGP 7600 GS though. Only tested with Swat4 for now.

Dell computers are not bad or anything. Only I think they are more for people that don't want to go trough all the trouble of selecting compatible hardware and tweaking evertything into detail to their personal needs.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/21/07 22:45

The E6600 is a Core 2 Duo, not a Core 2 Quad D3D.

I'd definitely go for a Core 2 Quad in a new PC, since you can buy the Q6600 starting at about 260 (!) Euros already (at www.azerty.nl , www.alternate.de etc. ..). I would advice not to buy a Dell PC, but instead buy all your parts in online stores like Azerty or Alternate.de using their 'pc-builder' thing. It's not just way cheaper, but you'll get really good hardware and service too in online shops nowadays. The only downside I can currently think of is that you will lack some pre-installed software. You'd have to buy a Windows Vista and Office 2007 for example. I'd recommend the OEM systembuilders version which can also be ordered at shops like azerty.nl . Vista Ultimate costs only 170 Euros or so and depending on the normal shop you'd buy your things this would be exactly the Windows version you'd normally get anyways.

As for specific parts, I'd consider a 3D card like ATI's HD2900XT or perhaps even a Geforce 8800 GTX, but needless to say both are quite expensive. You could also go with the Dell PC and buy a next generation 3d card by the time Nvidia's 9800 series comes out or ATI's R700. Both are expected to come quite soon already, supporting DirectX 10.1 (the 8800 and HD2900 can't handle DirectX 10.1, but then again I don't expect games to use it this soon anyways).

Ultimately it comes down to your budget and whether or not you'd like your PC to be good for another year or good for another 4 years or so.

Cheers

Posted By: D3D

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/21/07 23:14

Ok but i read E6600 ^^ Although Quad core is cool, how many applications/games are make use of this cpu? Maybe it's good to have a mobo that supports QC and wait with buying one now until newer released and price will be lower. I mean will you really notice difference between E6850/Q6600 right now?

In the store I mistakenly asked for quantum core, but think we must wait another 30 years for it to come with nano technology and AGI AI

Posted By: Marco_Grubert

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/21/07 23:58

Quote:

I was thinking about a Dell Dimension 9200 with an Intel core duo (quad core E6600) 2.4, 2 Gig RAM, 256MB Nvidia G-Force 8600 GTS (PCI-e), 2x250 Gig SATA RAID 0 HD's.

I would not recommend Dell- they are not particularly cheap and overclocking is usually not an option. However, they are reliable workhorses (my company uses Dell exclusively- no blue screens so far!)

I just finished my new system that I am quite happy with:
E6420 (2.13), 2GB, 320MB 8800GTS, 1x120GB disk

The 2.13GHz chip can easily be overclocked to 2.3GHz and there is not enough disk activity to justify a RAID setup. 8800 with 320MB is a nice compromise between the more expensive 640MB version and the cheaper 8600s.

Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/22/07 07:54

Quote:

Although Quad core is cool, how many applications/games are make use of this cpu?

I checked this out. I bought a new motherboard plus dual core cpu and checked all my applications. All the games that I have do not use the second core. So everything that counts is the speed of one core. One single core of the dual cpu was only slightly faster then my old single-core-cpu so I did not see measurable differences at all.

My modelling / rendering application Lightwave can use several threads for rendering and thus was a bit faster with 2 cores.

Some applications like TheGIMP crashed with this new hardware. I dont know the real reason. I changed all drivers and did everything I could think of. At the end I switched back to my old hardware and sold the board, memory and cpu. The advantage was too small and stability is my most important issue.

Posted By: Loopix

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/22/07 12:21

Thanks for your replies! Now I'm even more confused

I composed a custom PC on alternate.de (taking a G-Force 8800GTS, without WindowsXP) that turned out to be the same than if I'd buy a complete system from Dell (taking a G-Force 8800GTX including WindowsXP)...well the Mainboard was probable a bit better than the one from Dell (does someone know what mainboard Dell uses in the Dimmension 9200??).

Hm...I might just replace the broken mainboard from my old machine and use it till the machine blows for good

Posted By: EdP

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/22/07 14:07

I'm planning to go Quad Core within the next six months. However I am not being driven by speed as much as the ability to run a number of virtual machines and easily use them for software testing as well as providing a sand-boxed internet connection. I'll confess I also look forward to writing my own threaded programs to see if I can get speed advantages.

Its a shame that (so far) it is only possible to get a VM machine with software DirectX 8 emulation. Hopefully someone will work out a way to interface with graphics acceleration hardware without busting the VM concept wide open.

Posted By: Loopix

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/22/07 15:32

Ok...one last question to the experts:

would my old DIMM sdram (333Mhz DDR ...not DDR2) work on a ASUS mainboard designed for DDR2 667/533 MHz ram (of course only with 333Mhz!)??

Thanks for your help!

Posted By: Realspawn

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/22/07 15:46

i do not know how the reputation of Dell is in your country.
Here it is known as a big firm that sells used parts in so called new pc's. Even cases are known where people found programs of previous users on their pc. If you get a good system it rocks but service and helpdesk there a mess.

Why don't you built your own pc. You could have a system like that for half the price. However i am not sure if hardware is expensive in your country.

BTW i am from the netherlands and i just read your aiming for alternate

much better choice

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/22/07 17:06

Quote:

Ok but i read E6600 ^^ Although Quad core is cool, how many applications/games are make use of this cpu? Maybe it's good to have a mobo that supports QC and wait with buying one now until newer released and price will be lower. I mean will you really notice difference between E6850/Q6600 right now?

It's the common argument, but it's really a quite weak argument nowadays, there are a lot of games and applications that already use multiple cores if available and the number is increasing at a reasonable speed now.
( @Frank what did you use to monitor the cores? I've got a Logitech G15 keyboard that shows core usage in real-time and my quad core uses up to at least 3 cores in the heaviest applications and all 4 cores whilst playing Supreme Commander...)

I wouldn't recommend buying a single core at all, not just because a single core is NOT equal to a single core within a core 2 duo processor even if the Ghz are the same.. Besides I honestly haven't run into any problems whatsoever with either the quad core nor my core 2 duo with any program, even every old game that I own (Win XP-compatible games) run great with my quad core...

Cheers

Posted By: Marco_Grubert

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/23/07 00:57

Quote:

would my old DIMM sdram (333Mhz DDR ...not DDR2) work on a ASUS mainboard designed for DDR2 667/533 MHz ram (of course only with 333Mhz!)??

No, DDR2 is not backwards compatible to DDR.
I have had some bad experiences with an ASUS board recently and many others were complaining that their memory did not work (in my case the board was broken and the replacement is now working flawlessly). If you can go with Gigabyte I would recommend those instead of Asus. Either way: once you have picked a mainboard check their website to find out the EXACT brand and type of memory that they support and order that. Don't buy the memory first and then some mainboard.

As for multi-core support:
games are not too well suited for using multiple cores but some do. The important part is that intel has switched its consumer lines almost exclusively to multi-core so you can expect more applications to make use of that. Even without multi-core application support at least the OS can be offloaded to a secondary core but I don't know how much of a speed gain that will net.

Posted By: D3D

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/28/07 20:08

Sorry to bring up this thread again, but I had to ask. In one PC I have a C2D E6850 CPU and 2GB G.E.I.L. DDR2-1066 Kit GX22GB8500PDC, and now want to replace it with Q6600 CPU. Will it be really faster or just use more watt and only become useful after more applications and games are supported?

Also why is the C2D Extreme CPU more expensive? The price went up the last few months while other CPU's got cheaper after the Quad core came out.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/28/07 20:44

The 'Extreme' series has always been the most expensive processors from Intel. It probably has to do with the fact that those are factory-overclocked processors and not many people buy those. I'm thinking their performance is pretty good, but just like Quad Cores some time ago, their price just doesn't match the performance. Since the latest price drop anyone can afford a Q6600, so ... I'd say what are you waiting for?

It will increase performance ... I've played the World in Conflict demo today (great looking and quite heavy game) and it ran better on my Quad Core rig. D3D do you want to play the latest games on their max settings? If yes .. then go for the Quad Core. If you're short on cash or don't play games that often you could theoretically consider a Core 2 Duo, but since the price of the Q6600 is this far down, it's practically a no no... I won't be buying a Core 2 Duo or Dual Core processor anymore, that's for sure...

Quote:

Also why is the C2D Extreme CPU more expensive? The price went up the last few months while other CPU's got cheaper after the Quad core came out.

You mean prices changed at the alternate.nl or azerty.nl stores? That's normal because those prices are based upon their stocks, a fluctuation of about 30 euros at it's max is quite normal. My brother bought his HD2900XT for 360 Euros, I've bought mine for 380 Euros at the same store a bit later...

Cheers

Posted By: D3D

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/29/07 10:11

Yes I looked at Alternate online store. Anyways i've ordered the Q6600 and going to sell my E6850 to someone else. Also ordered another CPU cooler from ASUS, because I read the Q6600 get very hot with standard fan.

Posted By: Matt_Coles

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 08/29/07 11:08

Nice choice, 4 CPU's for compiling in WED and running rendering in lightwave exceptionally.
Wish I'd waited a while for the Quad price drops, paid $1300 for my Quad 6700

Posted By: Loopix

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 15:04

Ok...I'm about to setup a mid priced but still powerfull machine

Is it reasonable to use the following components (costs 1100$)??

Asus P5KR, Intel P35, Socket 775, 1333FSB
Intel Core 2 Duo E6750, Dual Core, 2.66 GHz, 4MB, FSB1333
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, Socket 775
Corsair TWIN2X2048-6400C4, 2x1GB, DDR2-800, CL4
Asus EN8800GTS/HTDP/320M, PCI-E, 320MB GDDR3
Samsung HD321KJ, T166S, 7200rpm, 16MB, 320GB, SATA-II
NEC AD-7170S, 18x DVD�RW Writer, Double-Layer
Corsair CMPSU-520HXEU, 520W, SLI/CF, ATX2.2/EPS

Would be great if you could tell me if this would work out

Thanks!

Posted By: broozar

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 15:15

DIY PCs are cheaper in most cases.

opteron 170 939 dual-core all the way, what's quadcore for... it's cheap (older socket), fast, giant cache, and it's AMD

-> 110� comes with excellent cooler
socket 939 mainboard -> 40-100�
2 Gig RAM -> 160�
2 samsung SATA HDD -> 200�
enermax power supply -> 60�
case (if you don't want to use tzhe old one): 30-50�

this is around 550� + GFX board of your choice, around 200�. so you don't need to exceed 750� for a really good PC.

use old DVD/CD drives, soundcard, firewire card etc.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 15:43

Quote:

Ok...I'm about to setup a mid priced but still powerfull machine

Seems like a good system to me Loopix.

Quote:

this is around 550� + GFX board of your choice, around 200�. so you don't need to exceed 750� for a really good PC.

I think you'll need more than just a good GFX card to have a PC that's still powerful enough to play some of the newer games. Honestly, I don't think an Opteron dual core would be a wise decision if you want to have some power for future or recently released games (you won't get the latest AMD dual core for 110�).

I wouldn't buy a Geforce8800 GTS when your processor isn't going to be a fast one too. It's not a good idea to safe money on your processor, it'll only become a bottleneck.

Quote:

Yes I looked at Alternate online store. Anyways i've ordered the Q6600 and going to sell my E6850 to someone else. Also ordered another CPU cooler from ASUS, because I read the Q6600 get very hot with standard fan.

Yes, it does become rather hot and the stock cooler clearly isn't up to it's task. It's a great choice though if you like to play games and want to be prepared for future games too.

Cheers

Posted By: JetpackMonkey

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 17:29

Posted By: Damocles

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 18:42

The ZX Spectrum was my first computer, and I have good memories to it.
I made my first games with that thing with the rubber keys...

best game -> JetPack

Posted By: Loopix

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 20:35

Ok...thanks! I'll go for the Sinclair for sure...also I'll buy a book to learn LOGO...or should I start with BASIC?

Just one thing I still need to know: Is the E6750 fast enough for a 8800GTS?

thx.

Posted By: Marco_Grubert

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 20:46

Quote:

Ok...thanks! I'll go for the Sinclair for sure...also I'll buy a book to learn LOGO...or should I start with BASIC?

Just one thing I still need to know: Is the E6750 fast enough for a 8800GTS?

a) BASIC for sure
b) What do you mean by "is it fast enough" ? Any CPU can be fast enough depending on what it tasks the 8800GTS with. Don't forget to get a good cooler such as Zalman and you'll be able to overclock the CPU by quite a bit.

Looking at the CPU charts at Tom's Hardware the E6750 seems to be a better buy overall than the Q6600. In low threading application the E6750 performs better, in high threading the Q6600 is better.
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=873&model2=871&chart=444

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: I'm not a hardware nerd... - 09/13/07 21:40

Quote:

Just one thing I still need to know: Is the E6750 fast enough for a 8800GTS?

Yes, don't worry, it won't bottleneck that graphics card.

Cheers

Posted By: Loopix

Thanks! - 09/25/07 09:16

Thanks everyone...especialy for advising me not to buy a already built up system but rather to assemble the system myself. I did follow this advice and have now a really slick machine...and it wasen't even that hard to find the fitting components and to build it up. I have now (for about 980$):

Mainboard: ASUS P5KR (FSB1333). This board also supports internal RAID settings
CPU: Intel E6750
CPU-Cooler: Arctic Freezer Pro7 (very effectiv and silent...and cheap!)
RAM: Corsair DDR2 800Mhz CL4 (2x1024Mb)
HD: 1x sATA Samsung Spin Point (320Gb), 2x IDE WD-Caviar (160Gb) my old ones!
GPU: ASUS 8800GTS (320Mb)
DVD-Writer: NEC(Sony) with DVD-RAM support
Case-Fans: 2x 120mm Scythe S-FLEX (10db...really super silent!)

I just played the Bioshock demo in highest settings (dx10 surfaces disabled cause of WindowsXP...) and it run absolutely smooth

The CPU temperature so far never got over 38'...system temperature (when playing Oblivion for about 3h) was at 41'.

Those components even seem to have a good OC potential...but I think I won't need that until Crysis is out

I can really recomend this System...it's powerfull, not too expensiv and super silent (if you decouple the HD's and activate ASUS's Q-Fans tec)

Posted By: Marco_Grubert

Re: Thanks! - 09/25/07 20:36

Nice setup. Now just link the two old HDDs as RAID-0 and store your games on that disk.