Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK)

Posted By: Rei_Ayanami

Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 16:32

Hey,

I just found (in my opinion) awesome video about a user-implemented deferred rendering solution for the Source SDK (Alien Swarm SDK).

I wish GS had something like this tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMjXx-KweIo

Regards,
Rei
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 17:05

Someone, port this awesome stuff to GS for free! grin Make community a little bit more happier!
Posted By: RealSerious3D

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 17:30

Yes! I would love to see lighting like this in GameStudio. And I wish WED would be as fluid for editing as that demo was!
Posted By: Cowabanga

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 18:27

Because 3DGS is totally capable of handling stuff that Source can handle.
Posted By: Rei_Ayanami

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 18:33

Probably, yeah. Source is a really old and bad engine.
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 19:21

Originally Posted By: Cowabanga
Because 3DGS is totally capable of handling stuff that Source can handle.
sarcasm? if so then i dont get it. A talented programmer could do this with a7. look at shade-c. It just takes perseverance which 99% of indies don't seem to have. Not that I'm much better lol.
Posted By: RealSerious3D

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 19:59

And some of us (like me) are not programmers at all. So this is totally beyond me.
Posted By: Hummel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 21:10

Standard stuff, nothing really impressive imo. If you need it, switch the engine (C4 f.i.).
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 22:01

I think it will be easier to hire someone to implement this stuff, then switching the engine.
Posted By: Hummel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/29/12 23:32

But not cheaper. GS is not made for the kind of projects which necessarily require such effects to be competitive. Otherwise it would offer basic optimization features like instancing.
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 04:32

How much will it cost to hire someone to implement this into gs? I just wonder laugh May be some of community members could unite and hire one guy for this, so it will be cheaper.
Posted By: Hummel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 09:45

The features shown in the video alone won't make you happy for a long time, since it's really just the basic stuff (in the sum less than LightFrog had to offer).
Posted By: alibaba

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 10:35

Itīs not only about the features, but also the performance. Which seems to be very fast in this video.
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 11:05

I'll be very happy (and I'm sure not only me, but the whole community as well) if this will work with the same performance and quality on gamestudio as on the video.
Posted By: Hummel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 14:18

Quote:
Itīs not only about the features, but also the performance. Which seems to be very fast in this video.
Because there arn't many features they are showing. On the other hand you don't know on what system this is running. I simply can't see any special quality in this video. =\
Posted By: alibaba

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 14:45

Yeah, but lets assume that this video was recorded with a crappy pc ^^
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 14:50

I want this effect! cry
grin Hummel, will you make this "small" crappy and not interesting stuff work with GS?
Posted By: mk_1

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 15:21

Can't see anything special, too, but a8 really needs a good lighting system.
Posted By: RealSerious3D

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 16:07

It's not that it's special (thought I think it is), but that you can't natively do it in any version of GameStudio. GameStudio's currently lighting (static and dynamic) is weak, at best, and outdated. So, yes, it would be great to see something like what is shown in that video inside of GameStudio.
Posted By: HeelX

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 18:24

I think that this is perfectly doable with Gamestudio A8, too.
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 18:36

If that is so easy to be done with GS, why don't you guys implement it? For free or for money?
Posted By: Hummel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 18:38

Of course is it natively implementable in GS. Nothing else I did with LightFrog.

Just because it's easy it doesn't mean it isn't time consuming.
There are nearly no developers who would make effectively use of such a system. Most people here just toy around.
Therefore I wouldn't feel motivated to do it for free.
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 18:45

Ok, nice. But what if those guys which are toying around will pay you some cash? How much will this stuff cost?
Posted By: HeelX

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 20:36

Hm, that depends. What would -you- pay for something like that, 3run?
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 20:48

Problem is, that I'm not familiar with prices, that's why I ask. And if someone is going to do that, I guess there will be few persons around the forum, which will team up and pay your price all together, cause that will be cheaper for all of them (me as well).
Posted By: Slin

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 23:14

Such a system wouldnīt really work with any other shaders, that arenīt exactly written to work with it.
So let me do some stupid guess of maybe 100 hrs multiply it by lets say 20€ per hour and youīve got a price. Those values are btw kinda taken out of nothing, but should at least give you an idea.
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/30/12 23:58

Won't work with other shaders? 2000 euro, this is 2 much I guess grin

edit: zero missed grin
Posted By: Hummel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/31/12 00:02

Quote:
200 euro, this is 2 much I guess
100h * 20€ = 200€ ?
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/31/12 07:31

thats even worst grin
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/31/12 16:14

exactly as slin says too, after 2k spent, you would also need to rewrite all your shaders to work with your fancy new lighting system.
Posted By: Kartoffel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/31/12 18:48

Well I'm really interested in this, too - and I'm a bit bored right now...

so I'll just try to create a Deferred-Rendering-Shader xD

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to fail but I will try anyway.
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 05/31/12 18:59

Why don't you take a look at the source code of the one from the video? laugh
Posted By: Kartoffel

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/01/12 09:51

Well... getting the normals and depth is pretty easy, but I still don't know how the lightss should be calculated with deferred rendering.
I already looked at a lot of websites but this didn't help me.

At the moment I'm using this:

[Color of the Pixel] = [Color] * ( ( [Distance to the Light] - [Lightrange] ) - [Difference between Pixel-Normal and Light-Direction] ) * [Light Color];

Works fine, but I think it isn't the right way to calculate this.


Another thing is, that I'm currently using vecSkill1 and vecSkill5 to give the Light information (RGB, Range, Position) to the shader.

Is there a way to read the Light information passed by the engine?

(EDIT: This might belong to the Shaders forum, sorry)
Posted By: txesmi

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/01/12 11:27

@Kartoffel
look for vecLightPos wink

Salud!
Posted By: HeelX

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/01/12 11:51

Problem is, as always, the degree of abstraction. You -can- write a rendering pipeline with awesome effects that is very closed (efficient and very well coded for the particular tasks, but hard to extend) and you can write the same rendering pipeline with the same effects but modular and open. This can result, though, into slightly inefficiencies if it is not well written. So, the design of the framework is the most interesing aspect in such an attempt.

So, lets face it: I am actually going to write me my own rendering pipeline for my next game. I will do it like this: I will write down what effects I -really- need and what not and what quality and what techniques I will use. Then, the whole architecture and wiring will be sketched on paper. After everything is thought through, I'll do a straight implementation. Thats it. I get what I need for no additional costs (hopefully smile).

If you write a general purpose rendering pipeline instead, you always have to ask "what does the user possibly want to do?". Answers to these questions are broad and sometimes hard to find. Consider, that the rendering requirements of a game like Crysis are totally different to what you have to do for a game like Portal or Age of Empires 3. Plus, sometimes users don't want an effect and disabling it should release some resource of course. E.g. if you don't want to use DOF, you should'nt allocate the render targets for them and you shouldn't compile shaders for them and so on. If you e.g. also don't have any postprocessing effects enabled that need a depth view, then you should'nt render the scene again for it. And what if the user has much vegetation and uses e.g. alpha-to-coverage - how is this treated in the depth view and how is it treated if the user disables this and uses only cutout (binary) alpha??? And what happens if I disable certain features and could put two MRTs into one, just because that the disabling disabled 2 outputs in the first MRT and 3 in the second? How is this treated, is this treated, should it be treated??? These are just basic questions, but very hard to answers, let alone that somehow has to code it.

It is very hard to create a rendering pipeline like this. That is why each (good) game uses it's own pipeline.

So, if we ask each user "what do you basically need for a game" and the user is honest and doesn't add things he saw in a latest tech demo or something, we will get a HUGE list of things which might be compilable into one unified rendering pipeline - or not. Well, I guess the latter.

[EDIT]

The estimation from Slin, btw, is, as he said, relatively free and totally depends on what you need. But you can count 10-20 Eur as standard price per hour. It just depends on the complexity of the task and the versatility you need, as I said.
Posted By: Cowabanga

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/08/12 19:41

Originally Posted By: Rei_Ayanami
Probably, yeah. Source is a really old and bad engine.

Old? Yeah, its SDK tools are, but not the engine itself. Bad? I don't think so, mate. Every engine has its pros and cons, Source has great networking system, a nice console and its games are moddable, at the cost of being a bitch to use.
Posted By: Rei_Ayanami

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/08/12 20:52

Source gets updated, but the core is old.
Posted By: RealSerious3D

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/08/12 23:31

Originally Posted By: Rei_Ayanami
Source gets updated, but the core is old.


So is GameStudio's wink
Posted By: 3run

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/09/12 05:53

Yeah, but with one "correction", Game Studio doesn't get updated so often grin
Posted By: Cowabanga

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/09/12 09:55

Originally Posted By: Rei_Ayanami
Source gets updated, but the core is old.


To be honest this is why I love Source, you can still find early bits of Quake code in it tongue
Posted By: RealSerious3D

Re: Awesome Deferred Rendering (in Source SDK) - 06/09/12 15:29

Originally Posted By: 3run
Yeah, but with one "correction", Game Studio doesn't get updated so often grin


grin
Posted By: Rei_Ayanami

Deferred Rendering in Unreal 4 - 06/10/12 18:28

Okay, that demo is even cooler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvfn1p92_8&feature=g-all-esi
Posted By: 3run

Re: Deferred Rendering in Unreal 4 - 06/10/12 19:04

There would be no doubt for me to change the engine if they only had lite-c in Unreal Engine grin
Posted By: the_clown

Re: Deferred Rendering in Unreal 4 - 06/11/12 10:57

Originally Posted By: 3run
There would be no doubt for me to change the engine if they only had lite-c in Unreal Engine grin


The problem with scripting in UDK isn't the syntax of the scripts but the way they are organized... completely different of gstudio, and slightly complicated, at least to me. And scripting isn't the main issue when switching from gstudio to UDK. The whole workflow is much more complex.

Besides that, the vid shows Unreal Engine 4, and I doubt they will update UDK to that, at least not in the next years.
© 2024 lite-C Forums