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The Deadline! #98085
11/09/06 04:03
11/09/06 04:03
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,256
Oz
L
Locoweed Offline OP
Expert
Locoweed  Offline OP
Expert
L

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,256
Oz
Heya,

Just thought I would make a post here about the reality of gamedev.

As hopeful and upcoming programmers and game developers we all strive for that time when we can actually get a sponsor and get paid for our skills.

Usually when you get to this point, you have proven yourself capable and deserve to be there. At this time, you will feel great power and excitement. I have finally made it!

If you make it to this point, you are actually correct, you have made it.

After you start actually getting paid for work though, you will become familar with new terms, such as Deadlines and Milestones.

Yeah, Deadlines and Milestones, you think to yourself, I can get anything done only to realize that they require not only you to get your job done, but everyone else in team to meet these commitments also.

You will also find that some Deadlines and Milestones just can't be obtained, either because the manager or investors don't understand the complicity of what you are doing or because of the situation of the game, which is usually a weak team issue.

This all being said, do the best that you can do under the circumstances. If you do quality work, more offers will come. Always keep learning how to improve what you do and you will succeed eventually.

Everyone who has the desire to succeed will eventually succeed, but it takes time (years) and constant dedication.

Loco


Professional A8.30
Spoils of War - East Coast Games
Re: The Deadline! [Re: Locoweed] #98086
11/09/06 05:27
11/09/06 05:27
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
H
HeelX Offline
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HeelX  Offline
Senior Expert
H

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
When milestones are set each month, then its okay. I made the experience, though, that as long as the development proceeds, the milestones get lighter each time they are closed. Especially the bug to feature ratio grows from 0 at the beginning very fast during development.

In fact, sometimes you have to cut down the whole feature-lineup to the half to be ready for the final deadline because you have such a big list of bugs and final improvements you have to made. Its not the pressure behind me that makes me worse but stupid publishers which say "ok lets pull the deadline 1 or 2 months so that we can get our money a bit earlier"... man! I hate that, because my personal degree of perfectionism and quality cannot be fulfilled, but this is a very common way most publishers go, so I don't worry at all. I tell myself "hey, I could have done it better, but they didnt let me"

ahh and by the way: Game development is only 10% fun. Seriously. So, .. ... we hate fun.

Regards
Christian

Re: The Deadline! [Re: HeelX] #98087
11/09/06 14:55
11/09/06 14:55
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Quote:

ahh and by the way: Game development is only 10% fun. Seriously. So, .. ... we hate fun.




I guess there's some truth in this, however I think the 10% fun is higher. Not sure how high though, because sometimes bugs really mess up motivation hehehehe ...

Deathstones and milelines ... a well, who needs them
(at the moment I don't have any real deadlines set, however I did experience before how difficult it is to really stick to the deadlines. Probably the hardest part of gamedevelopment by far.)

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: The Deadline! [Re: PHeMoX] #98088
11/09/06 16:32
11/09/06 16:32
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles Offline
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Damocles  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Milestones are important, to focus on the progress od the development, so that it
is not getting off course by implementing more and more faetures that dont work properly.
Also managers/producers need it to estimate how the development is progressing
(regarding aquiering new funds, raising budget or also cancelling a bad project
early enough)
Also to keep motivation in the team, by evaluating the progress.

But milestones have a drawback:

the developers could try to make the game/target-status work for the upcoming milestone,
by unproperly hardcoding parts or making superficial work-arounds.
This could in the end extend the complete development, as large parts have to be reworked.

So a producer must! know technical details of the development,
to know how the milestone should be set correctly,
to keep the project in pace, but not requiering a status that could only be reached
with unclean workarounds for the next milestone.

This is very important for the coding, and less important for
sound/grafix (as they are not so affected by workarounds)

Wrong setting of milestones could as easy cancel a project, as the lack of milestones.


(This is all not a specific game-dev topic, but applies to all technical development)

(to high demands / to short frequency in a milestone :
frustrates team. Developers might cancel important gameplayparts
that destroy the unique-selling point of the game, and implement
unclean workarounds

To little milestones:
Developers might tangle up in senseless features,
or rework already working parts for the sake of it,
members might shirk/fraud on others,
members get frustrated, as they dont see the progress/feedback without
the eveluation by the milestone)

Re: The Deadline! [Re: PHeMoX] #98089
11/09/06 16:38
11/09/06 16:38
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 828
agreenknight Offline
Developer
agreenknight  Offline
Developer

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 828
One thing that could help is prototyping an application. For example, Halo was originally going to be an RTS, but it looked so good they turned it into a shooter instead.


Keep It Simple, Make It Fun
Re: The Deadline! [Re: agreenknight] #98090
11/09/06 16:46
11/09/06 16:46
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles Offline
Expert
Damocles  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
I would always have a playable prototype as the first part of development.
All papers, essays, concepts are crap, if the team can not
make a first running version.
Developing story, levels, grafix should come after! a prototype.

If the prototype is no fun to play, it might be better to cancel or restructure the
project, before spending much efforts in a complete campaign and custom grafix.


Aslo very bad: if the prototype (with much less content than the finished game)
runs slow already.
Games get slower, not faster in the later stages.

Re: The Deadline! [Re: Damocles] #98091
11/09/06 17:44
11/09/06 17:44
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
fastlane69 Offline
Senior Expert
fastlane69  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
Quote:

You will also find that some Deadlines and Milestones just can't be obtained, either because the manager or investors don't understand the complicity of what you are doing or because of the situation of the game, which is usually a weak team issue.




Or because the individual or team doesn't know it's capabilities well enough to set realistic timelines.

Most deadlines and milestones are done with input from the ind/team -- "How long will it take you to complete task x?", "When can you have model y ready for review?" -- and then based on this input, you then setup a timeline and go from there.

The problem is that most people (yes, myself included) like to pad their answers to make themselves look good: "Oh yeah, I can complete that task in two weeks.", "It will take me only a month to have that model ready for you." This is particularly relevant when you have freelancers (over which you have no oversight control) vs. employees (whom you can oversee every day).

I've found out (having used both freelancers and employees) that the difference between an amateur and a pro is how close to your predictions you actually hit. An amateur will miss by 3 to 10 times their stated timeframe (talking from experience here, not just making numbers up). A pro will miss the mark by AT MOST 2 times their stated deadline. Note that I did not say that a pro will hit the mark every time. A person who states they will do something in one month and actually accomplishes it is a rarity in my experience and in game development in general. This is why missed deadlines (Cough Vista Cough) and crunch time (cough cough EA cough) are the rule rather than the exception. Furthermore you always have to account for a task being more difficult than originally planed, unexpected software bugs, personal issues, etc.

The bottom line is that for the above reasons it is critical for good game development (heck, for any development) to keep people whose abilities you know. Even if your team is always 5 times off their timeline, at least you KNOW the fudge factor and can adjust accordingly. If you don't have a well established team (either because it's brand new or you are constantly recycling personnel), then you don't' know what the personal fudge factor is (and like I said above, EVERYONE has one) and this will set your deadlines and milestones into disarray.

If you are ever curious as to why a publisher will not invest in an unproven team even if it's an uber game, keep the above in mind.

Re: The Deadline! [Re: Damocles] #98092
11/09/06 17:50
11/09/06 17:50
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
fastlane69 Offline
Senior Expert
fastlane69  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
Quote:

Milestones are important, to focus on the progress od the development, [...]

But milestones have a drawback:




Sage advice, Damocles.

This is why every team should have a project managers whose job it is to properly coordinate the various efforts of the team. If you don't have one plan and one vision, you will end up with "Feature Creep" (introducing new features during development) or "Guilding the Lily" (spending too much time making existing features look or perform better), two of the worst banes of any software development project.

You also hit it on the nail that this issues is more relevant in coding than art/music. After a while, a person will know pretty well how long a humanoid or a car will take them to create. It may take longer if there is a review process and even longer if there is no art bible, but generally I would assigne a fudge factor of no more than 2 when it comes to art/music. Programming on the other hand is real fickle and even if you know WHAT you want to do, the art of programming comes down to HOW you are going to do it with the minimum of BUGS possible. For that reason, I would assign programming a fudge factor of 5 times your original estimate.

Re: The Deadline! [Re: fastlane69] #98093
11/10/06 08:40
11/10/06 08:40
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William Offline
Expert
William  Offline
Expert

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
Well, most everythings been nicely covered here. And this -

Quote:

Games get slower, not fast in the later stages.




is very true. I hope everyone keeps this in mind. When you start your game, it's usually just one player, mabye some shoddy a.i. When you finish you game, it's a player, weapons, a.i, graphics, physics, menus, ect. So always plan ahead by giving the player options for both graphics and code. I'd also reccomend, if you going alone, to do your code first, then do levels and sound last. Simple because art becomes outdated much much quicker than code does, and code is more unpredictable. Makes scheduling things easier.


Check out Silas. www.kartsilas.com

Hear my band Finding Fire - www.myspace.com/findingfire

Daily dev updates - http://kartsilas.blogspot.com/
Re: The Deadline! [Re: William] #98094
11/10/06 15:45
11/10/06 15:45
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles Offline
Expert
Damocles  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
The prototype of the game should
include as many object, Levelcomplexity and paralel running skripts to simulate
the planned game.
This could be done using primitive dummy-objects with the skinsize and polys
as the finished objects are planned.
The same for the level (just some random garbage of blocks and models)
and some loops in the skript that calculate dummycalculations.

This prototype should note the restrictions for the later game then.
(Like:
I get 30FPS on my avarage testmachine, using
up to 200 Objects with each 3 looping skriptfunctions, and a Level with
1000 blocks and 30MB of Texture.
)
The prototype is still an estimate, but it is better to see it running than some
paper-estimations.

So the developmentteam knows the restriction of how many objects
the levels can contain, how complex they can be before developing them,
without guessing all the time...


There also needs to be a strict analysis of the targetmachine.
-who is my targetgroup (ranging from "Shooter Freaks", to "Granddad wants to play A casual Pokergame with his pentium 2")
-what is the low-end machine of the targetgroup at the time of release
-what is the high-end machine of the targetgroup (not of some few freaks)
-does the game run on the at least 90% of the machines on my planned target group.
(not reuqiering certain shader extensions to run the game , if the new casual Tetris game will
require a hig-end computer)

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