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To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
#136773
06/17/07 01:47
06/17/07 01:47
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 862 Australia
DavidLancaster
OP
User
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OP
User
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 862
Australia
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Found this cool article, not sure if it's been posted already, sometimes I wonder if some people should read this before posting in jobs http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php...p;#entry1006689Quote:
To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers:
Programmers already have more ideas than they know what do do with; without any of yours. They don't need your ideas. Probably most of them don't want your ideas. Most game programmers have more ideas already than they have time to begin, let alone complete.
That said, a good, well-thought out, well-presented idea is worth looking at, always.
So if you want a programmer to even consider your idea for 30 seconds, here's what you need to do:
1. Present a concrete, good idea with lots of visual aids. Writing a game takes hours and hours of work. If you want a coder to even consider, for a minute, dedicating that kind of time, you had better put in some serious time of your own preparing your idea. Time measured in hours. Make mock screenshots. Design some sprites. Learn the capabilities of the machine you want the game written for and fit your idea to them. It isn't easy to understand the Stella guide if you aren't a coder, but if you want somebody to even glance sideways at your idea you better be willing to put in the time to at least understand a little of it. Do some legwork and demonstrate it. Spend some time working out your idea on paper; playtesting it to make sure it works.
2. Present a compelling reason why a coder should take on the project *other* than the fact that you think it would be really cool. Does your idea fill an underserved niche in the 2600's library? Is it a completely unique concept? Are lots of people clamoring for a game of this type? Does it present a unique, fun challenge?
3. Be humble. You are asking for far, far, far more than you are giving or will ever contribute. Coders already work for pennies/hour working on their own ideas, if that. You want the programmer to do something for you, essentially for free? Don't make demands.
4. Be flexible. Be willing to put in yet more time reworking screenshots, rethinking game mechanics, designing different sprites.
The gold standard here is Adam Tierney (salstadt here at AA). Find some of the threads he started to publicize his own ideas and see what he did. See especially the Prince of Persia thread, and see how much work he put into that, over a period of weeks. You don't have to be the artist he is, but you better be willing to make up the difference in sweat.
What's a good idea? Can't give an exact definition, but here are some starters:
1. It is unique. Either absolutely unique or unique to the platform. 2. It has a tested, proven game mechanic. Which is fun. 3. It uses the capabilities of the machine it is designed for well. 4. It is fun to more people than just you.
The most important thing is to DO SOME WORK. If your idea doesn't have some mock screenshots, then it is worthless. Period.
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Re: To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
[Re: DavidLancaster]
#136774
06/17/07 06:34
06/17/07 06:34
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538 WA, Australia
JibbSmart
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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wise words. my mate's a decent artist and he would love for me to make a strategy game for him. he's done lots of sketches and such, and perhaps if he continues to think his idea is good i should ask this of him ^^
julz
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
[Re: JibbSmart]
#136775
06/17/07 08:52
06/17/07 08:52
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,856
TheExpert
Senior Developer
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Senior Developer
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,856
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I think you forget one essential things indeed the guy who want's to make a game MUST have precise details on characters(2D art),levels (designs of maps), game mechanics, if possible story line (quests)... made by him or another guys of the team. Now imagine a Third view RPG made with 3DGS template for 3rd person camera. for the basics, the programmer will not have lot of work, even more if the AI is just spot player, pursuit and attack like in mmorpg/rpg. So for the basic , small work for the programmer, and the more important is coming and is 3D artists ! believe me , the difference between a 3D artists and a really skilled one will make your game look newbbie or totalyy commercial looking ! So don't put all your hopes on the programmer , and programmer ask for lot less mastering than a 3D artists (lot of programmers can do some custom camera system ,and very basic AI) ! 3D artists ask for yeasr of modeling tricks, texturing etc ... Well i stop it was only my opinion  I agree with you, to envolve a programmer, you must present something really concrete, designs, prototype , more important some level/models to show him how good the game will be 
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Re: To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
[Re: DavidLancaster]
#136776
06/17/07 11:58
06/17/07 11:58
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
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Quote:
The gold standard here is Adam Tierney (salstadt here at AA). Find some of the threads he started to publicize his own ideas and see what he did. See especially the Prince of Persia thread, and see how much work he put into that, over a period of weeks.
Did anyone find the mentioned thread? Didn't find with Google. What does this mean: "salstadt here at AA"?
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Re: To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#136777
06/17/07 12:59
06/17/07 12:59
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659 San Francisco
JetpackMonkey
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
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I think this is kind of silly and high nosed... you can't make a good game without a balance of creativity and technical ability. A good game designer is not necessarily a programmer at all. Instead of saying "programmers have enough ideas" ,so programmer-centric (and kind of technically elitest), it is better to say that design teams have enough ideas. Especially today, when less programming is needed than ever. A lot of these 'ideas' involving ripping off Star Wars, The Sopranos, Alien, James Bond, Lord of the Rings, or Indiana Jones. There's no shortage of this junk. If someone has a really good idea for an original game, story, characters or world, I don't think it's sufficient to say that a programmer is the end-all game design guru at all. You can send your excellent game design off to China to be programmed by people you will never meet. It's like saying that the people who animate the simpsons (anonymous Koreans) are responsible for the story and popularity of the show. Well, actually I hate the simpsons.  The best games today have teams of talented designers, writers, artists and programmers. As middleware develops, fewer and fewer programmers will be needed. Some of the best game designers never touch code, like the world's most gamou designer: Shigeru Miyamoto. He's just an idea guy. There are other people out there who can do the same thing.
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Re: To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
[Re: JetpackMonkey]
#136781
06/17/07 17:21
06/17/07 17:21
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208 Germany
Error014
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
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Quote:
I think this is kind of silly and high nosed... you can't make a good game without a balance of creativity and technical ability. A good game designer is not necessarily a programmer at all.
True, true. Although I'm more of a programmer than anything else, I don't think that programmers are more capable of gamedesign than anyone else.
It is always a good idea to have a general idea on how complex it would be to create that game, and for that, it might be handy to be a programmer. However, it would also be possible to simply ask someone who knows about that.
The idea probably comes from way back when complete games were made by one single person. Of course, they'd have to have programming skills. But nowadays? Programmers tend to make very "technical" designs, but often, they make things way too complicated for the average user. There are probably certain "trends" in the gamedesigns of certain groups (Programmer, leveldesigner, ...), which is only natural because there is one aspect that they are most familar with.
If an idea is good, then it doesn't matter if its written by a programmer or an artist or just someone who likes playing games. Of course, some aspects might have to be changed, but so what? Games usually don't end up like the very first version of a Design Document would suggest.
Is the advice in the first post a good one? Oh, sure it is. But it's not only for "non-programmers". These things should be standard for everyone. Including programmers. You don't want to know how many prototypes of not-so-fun games I have here.
Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.
Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
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Re: To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
[Re: Error014]
#136782
06/17/07 21:17
06/17/07 21:17
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
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Quote:
You don't want to know how many prototypes of not-so-fun games I have here.
Sure, do I want to, will you send them to me?! 
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