Hilbert's Hotel

Diskussionsforum zur Unendlichkeit: Theismus, Atheismus, Primzahlen, Unsterblichkeit, das Universum...
Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
Change chart colours
by 7th_zorro. 05/11/24 09:25
Data from CSV not parsed correctly
by dr_panther. 05/06/24 18:50
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
The Bible Game
A psychological thriller game
SHADOW (2014)
DEAD TASTE
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (AndrewAMD, Ayumi), 1,393 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Hanky27, firatv, wandaluciaia, Mega_Rod, EternallyCurious
19051 Registered Users
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Is movement impossible? #154099
09/14/07 16:50
09/14/07 16:50
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,215
I
ISG Offline OP

Expert
ISG  Offline OP

Expert
I

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,215
Zeno, a famous philosopher back in the days, had a theory that movement was actually impossible for us humans to achieve. For example, you getting up from your chair and going to the door is impossible.

His claim was this:

Before being able to reach the door (our goal), we must be able to stand up and reach our halfway point - correct?

Well before we can reach our halfway point, we're going to have to be able to get 1/4 of the way to the door (or halfway between our starting point and our halfway point).

Yet again, before reaching our 1/4 mark, we'll have to reach our 1/8 point. However, this goes on forever BECAUSE numbers are infinite (right?). So without being able to tell when numbers stop we are unable to begin the actual process of movement.

Anyone have any ideas on how to rebute this? After hearing it myself and going over it a few times, in a philosophical way I believe it.


Ground Tactics - Coming Soon
Ground Tactics OFFICIAL WEBSITE
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: ISG] #154100
09/14/07 19:08
09/14/07 19:08
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Before trying to really thoroughly comprehend movement, we should simply accept that it's measurement is relative to the scale we choose.

It's a strange claim by the way, because everytime we reach the door we have proven to be able to cover all these infinite halfway points all the way up to the door, regardless of the scale you choose before you start.

The actual movement is still happening, the trouble Zeno seems to have had with it, was accepting 1 scale-size on which you base your measurements of distance and movement. Infinity doesn't matter when it comes to reaching the destination, it does matter for comprehending distance covered,

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: ISG] #154101
09/14/07 20:57
09/14/07 20:57
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Quote:

. However, this goes on forever BECAUSE numbers are infinite (right?). .




No, the number are infinite but their sum can be a finite number

n = 1\2 + 1\4 + 1\8 + 1\16...... = 2

Last edited by AlbertoT; 09/14/07 20:58.
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: AlbertoT] #154102
09/14/07 21:04
09/14/07 21:04
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Huh, are 1/2 and 1/4 and such infinite? I think they are finite, unlike pi for example.

Besides, if you have an infinite amount of numbers in between two (finite or infinite) numbers, then wouldn't adding them all together result in an infinite number as well? edit: answer to this would be "yes they would be infinite", but with this paradox each new number is half the amount of the last one.

Cheers

Last edited by PHeMoX; 09/14/07 21:27.

PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: PHeMoX] #154103
09/14/07 21:08
09/14/07 21:08
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Do you mean the number of addendum in the sum ?
Yes the number is infinite but the sum is finite
This is the solution of the Zeno's paradx
Not mine , of course some one smarter than me

Last edited by AlbertoT; 09/14/07 21:08.
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: AlbertoT] #154104
09/14/07 21:25
09/14/07 21:25
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Aah, I see, with the Zeno problem in mind I do understand it, because you have a finite distance to cover, yet an infinite amount of smaller distances in between ... the more you count in between the smaller they get individually, hence the fact that they can never 'outgrow' the finite total distance when you add them all together.

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: PHeMoX] #154105
09/14/07 21:32
09/14/07 21:32
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
exactlty
An other version of Zeno's paradox is the following
To cover 1/2 way, you need a finite time
The same to cover 1/4 way, you need a shorter time but still finite and so on
The mistake is to assume that the sum of infinite small time intervals must be infinite but it is not

Last edited by AlbertoT; 09/14/07 21:33.
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: AlbertoT] #154106
09/14/07 21:45
09/14/07 21:45
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Actually, if each next number is half of the last one and this goes on forever, ultimately it will never be a finite number, but still infinite. It will get EXTREMELY VERY CLOSE to a finite number, but will never reach it, right?

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: PHeMoX] #154107
09/14/07 21:54
09/14/07 21:54
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
no ,you will reach it the combination of Infinite (bigger than you can imagine) and infinitesim (smaller than you can imagine ) being finite

Re: Is movement impossible? [Re: AlbertoT] #154108
09/14/07 22:22
09/14/07 22:22
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,023
The Netherlands
Helghast Offline
Expert
Helghast  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,023
The Netherlands
i know the solution!!

out brain has a INT instruction build in, so it cuts of the decimals and thus we reached our goal

regards,


Formerly known as dennis_fantasy
Portfolio - http://www.designorhea.com/
Project - http://randomchance.cherrygames.org/
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  jcl, Lukas, old_bill, Spirit 

Kompaktes W�rterbuch des UnendlichenCompact Dictionary of the Infinite


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1