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Problem with cylinders in WEd #154613
09/16/07 18:54
09/16/07 18:54
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 9
Texas, USA
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Wolfsong Offline OP
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Wolfsong  Offline OP
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Hello...

Trying to go through the "Level Design - Practice" tutorial in the WEd Tutorial available here on the site and am getting stuck at the point where you add a chimney, in "Light and Shadow Part II". Basically, any cylinder I add is halting the building process with an error,

"Warning: block 0 is concave. Enable -mesh option to allow ..."

Then below that it says:
"----- CRITICAL ERROR -----"
E003 - no visible blocks in map

Going further...
If I add the cylinder, make sure it's not touching any surface *and* do not texture it, the map will compile fine, but the cylinder shows up as complete black, even whil the rest of the area is properly lit. However, the moment I assign a texture to it, I get the same error as above.

Now.. I'm following the tutorial to the letter. And it seems to only be a problem when the cylinder is in any kind of contact with the floor and/or ceiling of the house and/or is textured. It's kinda necessary to get through the tutorial correctly for the cylinder to interact with both surfaces. Block 0, I'm thinking, is the house, or at least the floor of the house. As soon as I delete the cylinder, the problem goes away and the map compiles fine.

So either there's some kind of bug in the BSP process or something's off with that tutorial...

Last edited by Wolfsong; 09/16/07 22:19.
Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Wolfsong] #154614
09/17/07 02:37
09/17/07 02:37
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Wolfsong Offline OP
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Wolfsong  Offline OP
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To add to the same issue...

I started the entire tutorial over from scratch as I discovered that hollowing out the house prefab also introduces a leak into the map. No matter what size the house is, or how I scale it, as soon as it's hollowed and I build the map.. I get a leak.

I continued on anyway, and, sure enough, as soon as I get back to the point of adding the cylinder for the fireplace/chimney - bam.. same error as in my first post and I can go no further with the tutorial.

Very disappointing way to be introduced to this system that's - supposedly - heavily tested for bugs. I ran into two of them within 20 minutes of starting on the first tutorial for it.

So that's two bugs I've found so far related to this tutorial.

Has no one else ever ran into this problem before? I have a very hard time believing I'm the only one suffering this issue.


Last edited by Wolfsong; 09/17/07 02:47.
Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Wolfsong] #154615
09/17/07 06:09
09/17/07 06:09
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 827
22�21'24"N 114�07'30"E
Frederick_Lim Offline
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Frederick_Lim  Offline
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Set the "Mesh size" to 0 in Map Properties, now you can compile the level successfully. But...

I have no clue about the relation between Mesh Size and Create Meshes in Map Compiler. The Mesh Size and Create Meshes are contradict...for instance, if I left mesh size to default value "1000", and enable create mesh in map compiler, map compiler will complain "W092: Level Leaking". That means if I get rid the warning I need to create a skycube with more then 1000 polygon to cover the scene, which is not make sense.

I hope the map compiler developer can explain more about that.

Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Frederick_Lim] #154616
09/17/07 06:31
09/17/07 06:31
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,264
Wellington
Nems Offline

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Wellington
Hi Wolfsong, I dont think your particular issue is related to the 'Bugs' forum in that the issues you discuss are not bugs as such but rather the ever present 'needs updating' thing which we are all going thru with Conitec because of the new engine and lack of experience therefore.

So the tutes are outdated a little but the actual probs you are reporting have all been addressed, unfortunatly, in different threads.

The New manual however may have the solutions or if not perhaps wait untill jcl checks this thread out (he's away for a week)and maybe he'll move it to 'Begginners' where I think it actually belongs because from there, you have more chances of catching somebody who has experienced similar issues and had them resolved.

Game dev is a hard road man and most of it revolves around what you are willing to go thru to get your project completed so dont ever expect Game engines or manuals to be up to date all the time, even though it would all be of enormous help, as its just not possible given a Company who is always developing for the user rather than sitting back a spell now and then.

Hope it helps...

Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Nems] #154617
09/17/07 10:54
09/17/07 10:54
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Wolfsong Offline OP
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Wolfsong  Offline OP
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Hmm...

Okay... I'd done a search for this particular problem, but found nothing in particular addressing it. I guess it's one of those "have to search for just the right combination of words" things that tends to happen in some forums.

As for whether it's a bug or not... I'd have to say it is. Not to be argumentative, but the whole "it belongs in the new user's thread", that "the engine is in on-going development" and that "game development is a hard road" ring of being somewhat apologist responses. I know where you're coming from, I just don't agree with any of them in this case, for one very simple reason:

I'm not doing anything in this tutorial that isn't - or hasn't been - common to the AX series of engines - or indeed - BSP engines in general for years now. I have tried performing no complex CSG operations, no subtraction, etc; I have kept all geometry snapped to the grid and, as I said, have followed the tutorial to the letter.

If the tutorial is out-dated, well, does that really place it as a "new user" problem, or a "someone not keeping the tutorial up-to-date" problem? I'd say the latter. There is no reason for me, or anyone else, to expect any other result from doing a tutorial other than that it will work as explained. I also think it's a bit disingenuous to categorize the lack of knowledge of how to "work around" a flaw in the system as a "new user" problem, by suggesting it would be better suited in that thread. New Users and, indeed, experienced users, should not have to work around anything - especially one so fundamental to BSP-based level editing as adding and texturing basic primitives. It's not like any new or experimental ground is being covered with BSP geometry; its use in games dates back to the original "2.5D" Castle Wolfenstein engine; or the Quake1 engine if you want to split hairs and stick to true 3D engines only.

I've done similar operations and, indeed, far more complicated ones in many other editors - from the Unreal Editor (ver. 1 to present) right on down to other hobbyist/indie level editors, like 3DWorld Studio and the QuARK editor (though I can't stand that thing) and all similar operations just _work_. I'm certainly no newbie to the concept of level design and I'm well aware that nothing in this tutorial up to the point I'm at is at all anything that should be kicking out errors.

If there's a "work-around" for it, fine, feel free to point me to a sticky'd article or something that provides it. If there is a substantial update coming to the manual that provides a "correct" way of doing it, then even better.

I do, however, resent the suggestion that it "belongs in the new user section"; as that seems to imply that it's a "newbie" or "user error" on my part, when it isn't. I followed the tutorial to the letter, at least 3 times, from scratch.

Edit:
Update - Okay, I just erased the original house and, brush by brush, reconstructed it as a plain, flat-roofed rectangular structure; I've read many times that relying on "hollow" functions on BSP blocks can produce unwanted results. So, I did it by hand and beveled together the edges and the entire thing is snapped firmly to the grid. The compiler is still halting with the same error as above - with or without the cylinder *or* the corridor prefab in place. Lights and the "position" are all within the volume.

You can't get much simpler than that - yet... still getting builder errors as before.

At this point, I am 100% convinced it's a problem with the builder/engine and not with anything "newbish" that I'm doing. I will happily go and recreate the exact same setup in any other editor, just to prove that what I'm doing does and should work and that this does, in fact, belong in the bugs section.




Last edited by Wolfsong; 09/17/07 11:22.
Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Wolfsong] #154618
09/17/07 11:22
09/17/07 11:22
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,140
Baunatal, Germany
Tobias Offline

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Tobias  Offline

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Well then read the responses by other people who explained you what you have to do.

Anyway I think you're right in that bad default settings like this belong to the bug forum because its something to be corrected, which means a bug. In any case I assume the default setting of Mesh Size in the next update will be 0 again so you can follow your tutorial without hassle.

Its mentioned in the installation instructions, btw.

Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Tobias] #154619
09/17/07 14:12
09/17/07 14:12
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Posts: 9
Texas, USA
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Wolfsong Offline OP
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Wolfsong  Offline OP
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Quote:

Well then read the responses by other people who explained you what you have to do.

Anyway I think you're right in that bad default settings like this belong to the bug forum because its something to be corrected, which means a bug. In any case I assume the default setting of Mesh Size in the next update will be 0 again so you can follow your tutorial without hassle.

Its mentioned in the installation instructions, btw.




Like I said... I did a search for the problem and got no relevant results. I said that in my last post. Thus, there were no other responses I could read on what to do or I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place.

In any case... I'm glad we agree it's a bug and should be fixed.

Thanks for pointing out that solution to me; now I can move forward with everything.


Last edited by Wolfsong; 09/17/07 16:11.
Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Wolfsong] #154620
09/18/07 00:32
09/18/07 00:32
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 827
22�21'24"N 114�07'30"E
Frederick_Lim Offline
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Frederick_Lim  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Well..try this

1. Set the File->Map properties->Mesh size to zero.
2. In Map compiler, click ">>>" button, check "Create Meshes".
3. Compile the map.

Re: Problem with cylinders in WEd [Re: Frederick_Lim] #154621
09/19/07 20:02
09/19/07 20:02
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Wolfsong Offline OP
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Wolfsong  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Quote:

Well..try this

1. Set the File->Map properties->Mesh size to zero.
2. In Map compiler, click ">>>" button, check "Create Meshes".
3. Compile the map.




Ya... that fixed it for me and I've since been able to move through the rest of the tutorial. So, life is good .

Like I said... I *did* try finding the solution myself before posting, but must have just not used the right search terms or something.

Need to wrap my head around this "mesh" concept in 3DGS now, so I can understand and better utilize it going forward.

Thanks again


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