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improved forum advertising #164160
10/29/07 05:49
10/29/07 05:49
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
J
JibbSmart Offline OP
Expert
JibbSmart  Offline OP
Expert
J

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
Quote:

in regards to the varied distribution of attention in Showcase I threads, here are a number of reasons i can think of:

-- screenshots attract attention. screenshots that show evidence of effort and the potential for a brighter future with a few mistakes will receive more comments and criticism than average looking screenshots where there's nothing glaringly wrong for people to pounce on.

-- potential. something that looks like it will be playable/usable in the near future will attract a lot of attention if it's something people want to play. i'm not going to take the time to comment on something that i don't even want to play unless i need to praise that person for something that really impresses me.

-- youtube. or other video-hosting/playing sites. it's a lot less of a hassle to stream a video in the browser than to download and play a video in media player. if a link ends in ".avi" or ".wma" or something, i'm not going to click on it (unless it is a big update to Kiyaku's Angela's World or something). i'm more likely to click on a ".mov" or youtube link because that will play in my browser.

-- the user. if someone is pretty new to the forum and doesn't make it obvious in the first post that what they're doing is more than just an ambitious noob's dream, it's less likely to merit a response from me. noob's need to be encouraged, of course, to get out of the 'noob' stage, but when times are busy i'm not going to bother trying to set them straight and figure out whether or not they're worth paying attention to atm.

-- game. i'm more likely to comment on a game than anything else. i see model packs, texture packs, and examples of freelance artwork, but i'm never going to use any of them, and they are of no interest to me unless they are exceptional (such as Andvari's work which should be an inspiration to any aspiring game artist), in which case i will comment and say "that's good!". having said that, i enjoy having a look at aztec's frequent contributions because i can see how much he's improved over the past many months and he's actually producing some nice stuff -- yet i still don't comment on them, because i know there are many others who will reliably point out where improvements can be made, and they don't hugely impress me (as i'm sure aztec can understand at this stage). a game that looks like it will get somewhere is exciting, because we could really use some more sold games to show A6/A7's capabilities, or at least spread the word about it.

that's basically how i put my personal response to Showcase I threads into words.



under a different topic i cited my personal reasons for responding or not responding to Showcase I threads.

as an example, immediately after posting this i came across Shadow969's ragdoll in Showcase I and was disappointed to see that the only visual stimulus was a .avi video (that's a big minus for me). it just so happens that the fact that it's coming from Shadow969 is a plus, so i tried anyway (which i will almost never do unless the user has shown good stuff before or seriously snagged my interest), and funnily enough the download was cumbersome and the video didn't work on my cripple-of-a-laptop. Shadow969 was kind enough to put up a youtube video which made it infinitely easier to view and prompted me to respond, saying so.

another example would be draculaFactory's first showing of his Aquarius project, which only had a demo link. the first few responses were that he'd be better off showing screenshots and/or videos to build interest, and this was misinterpreted somewhat resulting in the removal of the demo and closing of the thread. soon afterwards, draculaFactory came back with screenshots and video links that show much promise and prompted much more positive and constructive comments.

Error014 said that this should perhaps be a new topic so people have a better idea of how they can represent their projects in Showcase.

so:

can anyone comment and give other ideas as to what affects the way they show interest?

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
Re: improved forum advertising [Re: JibbSmart] #164161
10/29/07 08:14
10/29/07 08:14
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
broozar Offline
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broozar  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
you can stream avi/wma movie files with mplayer, vlc or windows media player ("open url..."). in fact, i like that more than youtube because the quality is much higher.

texture packs and other contant is important to me if it comes to, say, dexsoft textures, it's another question if that belongs into showcase 1 or 2.

not supplying the forum users with screenshots, videos and links is bad advertising and it's only the poster/creator who is responsible for his bad product showcase. personally, i don't care too much, if a product is good usually the forum presentation rocks.

i rather doubt the quality of the forum users' feedback. simple, template based games with extreme lowpoly models often get a "good start", "i like it", "cool, keep it up" statement, while innovative an graphically astonishing projects tend be be criticised (i remember the sphere2-thread.... aww that answers were so lame).

Re: improved forum advertising [Re: broozar] #164162
10/29/07 08:45
10/29/07 08:45
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
J
JibbSmart Offline OP
Expert
JibbSmart  Offline OP
Expert
J

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
Quote:

you can stream avi/wma movie files with mplayer, vlc or windows media player ("open url..."). in fact, i like that more than youtube because the quality is much higher.


that's fair enough, but i don't normally have a media player open, and i don't keep any updated ('cept the occasional iTunes update. i don't like WMP). i also personally don't like streaming much video that's of high enough quality that it would look better outside of YouTube, but these are just minor personal preferences of mine.
Quote:

i rather doubt the quality of the forum users' feedback. simple, template based games with extreme lowpoly models often get a "good start", "i like it", "cool, keep it up" statement, while innovative an graphically astonishing projects tend be be criticised (i remember the sphere2-thread.... aww that answers were so lame).


i don't remember it i might have a search and a look later. the only template game i can recall at all in Showcase I (and i know there were more, but not of late) is the unnamed zombie game, which i do like the design and concept of, and is specifically being made by an experienced 3DGS user for the sake of an experiment.

i gotta agree, though, the term "good" is used too loosely.

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
Re: improved forum advertising [Re: JibbSmart] #164163
10/29/07 13:08
10/29/07 13:08
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Quote:

i gotta agree, though, the term "good" is used too loosely.




I don't agree! There is no eternal list of standards out there, and even less there are persons on this forum who actually have a sure knowledge of standards.
That's why I expect the commenting persons to be self-aware of their own limited knowledge to criticise.

"Good" means actually not the same when I give feedback to a beginner who managed to get a working "composition of templates" and when I give feedback to an experienced.

There is already everything said in the stickies of the threads, more or less declines from that are not a catastrophy.

JulzyMighty, I agree with your list of advertising elements for a good showcase of a project - but, if one fails to meet such requirements, then it is his own loss. The examples of communicating these things in the forum don't show a huge problem, they simply show the results of your good influence! So, thumbs up for your good feedbacks!

Re: improved forum advertising [Re: Pappenheimer] #164164
10/29/07 16:51
10/29/07 16:51
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
fastlane69 Offline
Senior Expert
fastlane69  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
Quote:

i rather doubt the quality of the forum users' feedback. simple, template based games with extreme lowpoly models often get a "good start", "i like it", "cool, keep it up" statement, while innovative an graphically astonishing projects tend be be criticised (i remember the sphere2-thread.... aww that answers were so lame).




There is a simple reason for this: if you are using templates and/or make a simple game, you are often starting on the path of game development. You probably don't know much and thus you need ENCOURAGEMENT rather than CRITICISM.

Now advanced projects are usually made by people who do know better, who understand the system and game development in general. These people need CRITICISM to make their game better and not likely ENCOURAGEMENT to continue making them.

So I see nothing wrong with this policy; encourage newbies, critisize oldies.

Quote:

i gotta agree, though, the term "good" is used too loosely.




I don't see a problem with this either. All you have to do is see whom this comment is coming from!

For example, if TheExpert says "the game is good", you can guarantee that it is the graphics that he is referring to and little else being that he is very graphics focused. If TripleX says "the game is good", you can bet that he is referring to the program stability since he is very programming focused. If I says "the game is good", I'm usually referring to the overall game design since that is what I teach and focus on. And if Matt Auf. says "the game is good", check your screen again because this never happens or there is some sarcastic remark following it!

Saying something is good is inherently subjective. That is not a problem if you take the time to see who is saying it and who they are saying it to (referring to my encouragement vs. criticism comment above).

Re: improved forum advertising [Re: fastlane69] #164165
10/29/07 22:45
10/29/07 22:45
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
J
JibbSmart Offline OP
Expert
JibbSmart  Offline OP
Expert
J

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
Quote:

I don't see a problem with this either. All you have to do is see whom this comment is coming from!

For example, if TheExpert says "the game is good", you can guarantee that it is the graphics that he is referring to and little else being that he is very graphics focused. If TripleX says "the game is good", you can bet that he is referring to the program stability since he is very programming focused. If I says "the game is good", I'm usually referring to the overall game design since that is what I teach and focus on. And if Matt Auf. says "the game is good", check your screen again because this never happens or there is some sarcastic remark following it!


yup, i just got told you're absolutely right. both of you.

Quote:

There is already everything said in the stickies of the threads, more or less declines from that are not a catastrophy.


that is true. but since many wonder about the distribution of comments among different projects, it's worth discussing what are good ways to go about presenting a project that people will respond to.

when i said the term "good" is used too loosely, it wasn't explicit (perhaps you guys aren't using "good" explicitly either, but i'm just throwing that out there because now we're all using "good"). i guess all that i've got left to say on the matter is that people should stop complaining about others' comments. in the yet unnamed zombie project thread there were those who took the time to say "this isn't worth commenting on, and those who did comment wasted there time" (that's a summary, not a quote). they're the problem, not the use of adjectives such as "good". though, that's not what i meant at the time of my last post.

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
Re: improved forum advertising [Re: JibbSmart] #164166
10/30/07 20:11
10/30/07 20:11
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline
Expert
Error014  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Quote:

Error014 said that this should perhaps be a new topic so people have a better idea of how they can represent their projects in Showcase.




Yup, it was me who did that. I find it interesting to see how actually prettsy little things (youtube vs. direct link - its both "video", but it makes a difference in the amount of replies, it seems) can make a difference.

Another aspect I'd like to hear opinions on is the length of the actual post. Of course, nobody is going to read through 300 pages, that's obvious. However, are you more likely to download something when rules and/or development history is explained in detail? Or does it stop you from reading/downloading when the post is too long? What is with too short posts? More willing to give it a try? Less willing, as he apparently doesn't even care? What seems to be the "ideal length"? What do you want to be told about, what do you want to find out yourself?
I suppose that some of the posts I wrote for my Experimental-thing were too long, but I don't know if that affects the amount of replies. Thus, I'd like to hear more about this.

Other things that would interest me are: Do you prefer many threads for one game (most do this), or only one big thread (as our Disenfranchised-Thread here)? Of course, you know more about a game when you could follow news from development - but is that a wise decision if you are after many downloads?

So yeah, that is a post full of questions so far. I agree with what is being said so far, though.
In the last few months, I've become less active than I used to be (must have been quite a wile since my last post helping someone in Scripting! ... Aaah, those were the days with pictures and all), and my criticism has shifted somewhat towards criticising than encouraging. I try not to be too hard and also highlighting positive things when I moan about what I don't like, but well, maybe I'm too much of a cynic for that. What I noticed, though, is that many people will ignore much of those comments, which is somewhat sad, because there IS some truth to it. Maybe I was too mean? Who knows. I only wanted the best for you, guys! Honestly! (or, maybe, a good laugh )


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
Re: improved forum advertising [Re: Error014] #164167
10/30/07 22:36
10/30/07 22:36
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Half of your post is a good size!

The reason is that a bigger post is difficult to reply on, because one has to consider too many different statements for a fast answer.

And, you have to take in account that the forum is a matter of entertainement.

Touch feelings, be slightly insulting, rough, that pushs the rate of replies.

Don't be precisely, don't say everything, left some questions unanswered, don't be too sophisticated - that reduces the numer of probable replies significantly - unless you spice it up with ironie and exaggerations!
Look at it this way: it is not important that you get much replies, it is important that you posted it, a lot of people actually appreciate what you are posting, but what can they say? Just 'good' or 'great' is somehow forbidden by the rules, and better answers take time and concentration, and, maybe one is impressed, but it is above anything he could give an appropriate feedback about.

Sometimes, I only looked, how many people looked into my thread, I don't care anymore, if nobody replies, often it is a sign for that everything has been said already...

Re: improved forum advertising [Re: Pappenheimer] #164168
10/31/07 08:46
10/31/07 08:46
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,801
Richmond B.C., Canada
Captain_Kiyaku Offline

Dichotomic
Captain_Kiyaku  Offline

Dichotomic

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,801
Richmond B.C., Canada
Quote:


i'm not going to click on it (unless it is a big update to Kiyaku's Angela's World or something)





*bows*, too kind


Amyway, let me list some things how i react on topics (about projects):

- If there is too much text, i won't read it and feel ... "dumb" for not knowing what the game is about or how it works, so i propably won't download it
- i won't download any project if there are no screenshots (from the game, not menu or stuff)
- However, if the post is TOO short (here is my game have fun kthxbye), i won't reply or download either


Example: Error014's topics are way too long for my taste. I will download the demo anyway, but propably not replying. Cause if i find a bug or want to say something about the game, i'm not sure if error didn't allready mention it before.

That's how i react. I also learned that only a small amount of people will answer to your projects. Lot of people will play it and will agree with people who posted already. So many checking your download number of the game is a good way to see if your game is popular or not.


My Blog

"Tag und Nacht schrei ich mich heiser,
Wind weht alle Worte fort,
Tag und Nacht schrei ich mein Krähenwort!"

Subway To Sally - Krähenkönig
Re: improved forum advertising [Re: Captain_Kiyaku] #164169
12/11/07 04:15
12/11/07 04:15
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,264
Wellington
Nems Offline

.
Nems  Offline

.

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,264
Wellington
For me as said above, 'good' is relative to the individual user i comment on.
My point of view is this;

I beleive that more developers creating titles is a 'good' prep for what I beleive the future holds with respect to VR worlds and so the more who can be encouraged to continue development the better are our overall chances of aquiring market share when the reality finally hits us and the more variety there will be for the styles on offer.

Instinct is my measure, if a post strikes me intuitively as being fabulous I will give what I honestly beleive to be my feelings at the time I made the post.

Screens will always get my interest, not only for the wow and grading factors but for the joy of seeing some one accomplish something and as mentioned above, entertainment is what it is all about.

Downloads will happen if I want to make a feedback to encourage the developer, even if it exceeds my 100mgb limit but if the developer is in my mind 'good' anyway, my input will be limited as a mark of respect to the developer as I have found that sometimes my comments can actually peeve some off unintentionally.

And, its all relative to my experience base which in most cases is the same as my fellow developers based on activity over the time period from first sign up to now.

I am a wanna be developer with no titles to my name and consequently my critics should be seen in that light, just another amature seeking glory thru GStudio.

But above all is that fact that very few have full on dev projects, just scenario testings to gain more experience in the matter the post is centered upon, and this I am confortable with, as this has been my showcase postings too.

Unfortunatly, I never get the response I am looking for, was the gameplay ok, have I got the interest factor right for what I am posting, why do massive downloads happen but few post on it anyway etc.

Definitive critics I know I cant ever give as I dont have the experience and there fore the right or insight to make such comments.

Any advice I give is based only upon my actual experience with GStudio , Torque or the application in question and some old 2d game making apps I have actually learnt to use

I love errors posts but if they get too long I will silently slip away.

Papenheimers is one of my forum GODs thanks to the INteractive learning module he and Gnometech released which catapualted my learnig of the suite.

I could go on but my attention span is somewhat limited


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