Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
Newbie Questions
by fairtrader. 12/06/23 11:29
Zorro Trader GPT
by TipmyPip. 12/04/23 11:34
Square root rule
by Smallz. 12/02/23 09:15
RTest not found error
by TipmyPip. 12/01/23 21:43
neural function for Python to [Train]
by TipmyPip. 12/01/23 14:47
Xor Memory Problem.
by TipmyPip. 11/28/23 14:23
Training with command line parameters
by TipmyPip. 11/26/23 08:42
Combine USD & BTC Pairs In Asset Loop
by TipmyPip. 11/26/23 08:30
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
A psychological thriller game
SHADOW (2014)
DEAD TASTE
Tactics of World War I
Who's Online Now
7 registered members (fairtrader, Quad, miwok, Martin_HH, AndrewAMD, alibaba, dpn), 581 guests, and 0 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
fairtrader, hus, Vurtis, Harry5, KelvinC
19019 Registered Users
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Lyrics As The Base Of A Game #175397
12/30/07 15:10
12/30/07 15:10
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline OP
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline OP
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
As you know me, I can't resist to give input for imaginations of never seen games.

I heard a song in the radio quite often, until yesterday, I googled for the lyrics: "kate nash foundation lyrics"
I can't resist to say this is a song near the quality of a song of the ancient Sappho! It is full of deep emotion and describes a complex situation of a relationship which hits life as a whole! That's what one can expect from good literature: touching life!
That's what I expect a game should do, too - if games ever should reach the artistical value as other arts.
I think it is an extremely good start for a game or a movie because it doesn't only describe a feeling, an impuls (IMO the minimum for any art), not only an arbitrary situation, but describes feelings and acting within a situation and a relation which affect something in life that almost each person had, have or will make experiences with.

Quote:

Thursday night, every thing's fine, except you've got that look in your eye
when I'm tellin' a story and you find it boring,
you're thinking of something to say.
You'll go along with it then drop it and humiliate me in front of our friends.

Then I'll use that voice that you find annoyin' and say something like
"yeah, intelligent input, darlin', why don't you just have another beer then?"

Then you'll call me a bitch
and everyone we're with will be embarrassed,
and I wont give a [censored].

My finger tips are holding onto the cracks in our foundation,
and I know that I should let go,
but I can't.
And every time we fight I know it's not right,
every time that you're upset and I smile.
I know I should forget, but I can't.

You said I must eat so many lemons
'cause i am so bitter.
I said
"I'd rather be with your friends mate 'cause they are much fitter."

Yes, it was childish and you got aggressive,
and I must admit that I was a bit scared,
but it gives me thrills to wind you up.

My finger tips are holding on to the cracks in our foundation,
and I know that I should let go,
but I can't.
And every time we fight I know it's not right,
every time that you're upset and I smile.
I know I should forget, but I can't.

Your face is pasty 'cause you've gone and got so wasted, what a surprise.
Don't want to look at your face 'cause it's makin' me sick.
You've gone and got sick on my trainers,
I only got these yesterday.
Oh, my gosh, I cannot be bothered with this.

Well, I'll leave you there 'till the mornin',
and I purposely wont turn the heating on
and dear God, I hope I'm not stuck with this one.

My finger tips are holding onto the cracks in our foundation,
and I know that I should let go,
but I can't.
And every time we fight I know it's not right,
every time that you're upset and I smile.
I know I should forget, but I can't.

And every time we fight I know it's not right,
every time that you're upset and I smile.
I know I should forget, but I can't.





The special of this song is IMO that it doesn't tell about a situation that actually happens or happened, but that she expects that she won't be able to act in that certain way that it will happen! Wow!

Although, I think this is a good start for a bigger a game or a movie or even a novel, one can't start with it, if he has not personal relation to such thing, because of his own experiences.

My personal experience is that my girlfriend's "finger tips are holding onto the cracks in our foundation" quite often, although I think that our relationship(our "foundation") in difference to that in the song is quite solid, while that in the song is going to burst very soon.


Okey! How to translate this into gameplay?

How about controlling a character which is doomed to act in a certain way?

Or:
More open to any suggestions:
What were the game's target?
What were its challenges?
What were its rewards?


Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Pappenheimer] #175398
12/31/07 03:09
12/31/07 03:09
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
Expert
Joozey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
I certainly agree with you here. Songs, with their lyrics, can trigger powerful feelings on which a game can be based. I do this very often, just listen to music and lyrics and think of scenery that fits to the mood. Then think of a story around it and try convert it into a game ^^.

Then I consider whether or not I shall start all over again with this new type of game and abandon my current project .

Quote:


The special of this song is IMO that it doesn't tell about a situation that actually happens or happened, but that she expects that she won't be able to act in that certain way that it will happen! Wow!




Not sure if I understand, for I clearly read a situation that has happened.

I did not saw much of a story forming. For a game, that is. It could be a great movie or novel, but a game? I only read heavy emotions of hate and such . And to me she describes a situation that had happened and she tells what she feels right now; that she can't let go and leave it (aparantly coz she, somewhere, likes to bitch against him).

Quote:


Then you'll call me a bitch
and everyone we're with will be embarrassed,
and I wont give a [censored].
--
every time that you're upset and I smile.
I know I should forget, but I can't.
--
and I must admit that I was a bit scared,
but it gives me thrills to wind you up.
--
Well, I'll leave you there 'till the mornin',
and I purposely wont turn the heating on





No, this relationship wouldn't last long indeed but she clearly got satisfaction by the fact that she can hurt him in some ways. Revenge which started with tiny complications a while back.

But I'm not sure how a nice game can evolve from this.
Closest thing that comes to mind:


An intro movie that literally starts the situation as the lyric described. Maybe a little harder even. It starts with a fight, and in the end, she hit you with something hard, and you pass out. As the game starts, you wake up with a headdache, girlfriend gone, and walk around in an apartment full of mess, hearing a voice of the man partly telling what happened (against himself) so the player start to understand the story.


Of course a game gets interesting when something big goes on, and you need to find out what. With a start like I described, I'd compare it with movies like , Memento, Fight club, American gangster, American history X or American beauty (yeah lol @ america ). Not the genres, but the fact that it's reality and things can get very harsh. It's hard to think of a situation where the player gets eager to find out what happened though. I'll resume with a random event that pops in my mind based on some movies.


After you wake up you search the room a little. You know that you are in your "girlfriends" house and sniffle between the mess here and there. And then you find something disturbing. Something that makes you wonder why it laid there in her room. Pictures with a blurry image of something that looks like a car accident against a tree at night, with a dead passenger, maybe two. When you look back from where the picture lay, you find two more, one with that same accident but further away, from behind some bush. The other one looked more like a picture of a childs drawing. On the drawing you vaguely recognize a child holding the hand of a woman who lay down on a street.


As I said I just made that up while writing . At least it's a start to begin a game with. However you're still missing a purpose for why you would even start exploring where the photos came from.


When you returned to your own apartment and goes inside, you find your wall smeared with red crayon-pencil-strokes forming the word 'LEAV' and some unreadable letters after. 'LEAVE NOW'? As the game continues you find more and more disturbing things, threatening you, partly even starting to scare you. You decide to buy a gun in case you need to protect yourself against who-ever is stalking you. Of course you have an idea who it is, but you can't really believe that your (now formal?) girlfriend did all this. You decide to confront her with it, and returns to her apartment to look if she got back.

She was back, and denied all, kicking you out of her house, swearing at you for your false accuses. Did she spoke the truth and didn't do it after all? You couldn't believe she was stalking you anyway... but then again, you couldn't believe she would knock you unconscious either...


As the game continues, you start to understand what is going on. For what I had in mind, his girlfriend was victim of that car accident, which wasn't really an accident. Someone was behind that event, and she was the only survivor. It appeared that she had a stalker, a real one. She was threatened and he, whoever he was, setted up more of those horrible 'accidents'. But the worst thing of all, he made it all look like you, the player, was the man behind his acts.


You finaly start to understand now. Your girlfriend was indeed behind the stalkings. The word on your apartments wall, it said 'LEAVE ME'. But her motives were far from 'just revenge'. She had been stalked severely for months. And, as appeared from the things you found in further investigations in her house, she started to lose her mind, she became insane. What most alarmed you was that you found traces that she, too, bought a gun.


Well you can now end the story as harsh as you like, or otherwise . The best story, IMO, would be if she died, you are accused of her death and stalkings and the stalker got away with it.

So, there a possible story from your lyric. Comes closest to the movie american beauty seen the harsh-ness and the ending. the movie 'Memento' gave me the 'girlfriend got insane' idea.

Though I at first imagined the man from the lyric to be a lazy beerdrinking dumbass, it wasn't very exciting to make a game with so I decided to turn him into the good guy . The lyric was written by her before the game's story started, and the events happening in the lyric are not really the cause of those in the game. That pretty much cuts the idea that the game is based on the lyrics, but it still does play an important role in the game, as it was the base for a growing anger and revenge-feeling for both girlfriend and player.

As I read it back I think it's a nice story, but a little static for a game. I'm sure there can be dynamic things added to it though. This genre of game wouldn't, of course be a FPS, rather a thriller, as things can look really scary . It'd be more like playing a movie than a game, but that can be a nice thing too? haven't heard of any such idea.

Well, I have nothing more to say hope it's interesting enough to read, or to do something with it . If not, I enjoyed the thinking and writing nonetheless .

Cheers

Last edited by Joozey; 12/31/07 03:13.

Click and join the 3dgs irc community!
Room: #3dgs
Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Joozey] #175399
12/31/07 15:40
12/31/07 15:40
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline OP
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline OP
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
It is interesting!
And it is IMO actually a story that could do as an adventure!

Maybe, you are right, and she doesn't imagine her behaviour happening in the future, but where do these "you'll" and "I won't" etc. come from?

Actually it is a situation out of many, where her and his behaviour "replay", iterate, echo...

And, I imagined her between these situations in which their relationship again and again gets its challenges and frustrations.

You choose a scary twist of the story while I would go more for a direction where you try to save the relationship, or at least the dignity of fair play while quitting.

Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Pappenheimer] #175400
12/31/07 19:01
12/31/07 19:01
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
Expert
Joozey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Quote:


Maybe, you are right, and she doesn't imagine her behaviour happening in the future, but where do these "you'll" and "I won't" etc. come from?





I did not notice that actually . I draw the conclusion that she wrote it as if it's going to happen, but it takes place at the moment before it happened. In her mind she goes back to that moment and starts thinking what events happened next. And all wrote it down literally . Maybe I'm wrong, I was never that good in understanding literature, seeing the world through the eyes of someone else, that is hard for me to imagine. But I always liked it to give a try .

Quote:


Actually it is a situation out of many, where her and his behaviour "replay", iterate, echo...




Yes I think so too. But she choosed those specific events, perhaps because this is where she felt something different, a change in her feelings. Maybe she felt the first hate for him, or noticed for the first time that she liked to take revenge, that kind of change in emotion that 'burns' the event in your memory.

Quote:


And, I imagined her between these situations in which their relationship again and again gets its challenges and frustrations.




That is indeed the global view of the situation I imagined too . But it's increasing. Every event is building up anger and hate until, at one moment, it ends one way or the other.

Quote:


You choose a scary twist of the story while I would go more for a direction where you try to save the relationship, or at least the dignity of fair play while quitting.




That is my preference because I wouldn't like to play a game where you need to hold your relationship steady wouldn't be very attractive to play, unless you can build your own house, have your own pet, can have babies and call it The Sims . But I can imagine people think otherwise.

Having two relationships to hold up, reallife and virtual, would give you hands full but it can give someone a new insight too in how to solve problems. If you'd make such a game with a relation therapist, it could be pretty educational on social area ^^.


Click and join the 3dgs irc community!
Room: #3dgs
Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Pappenheimer] #175401
01/03/08 22:45
01/03/08 22:45
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline
Expert
Error014  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Aww. When I saw the title, I thought that this would be closer to song and music as "lyrics" suggested than it finally turned out to be.

Basically, what you're discussing are the lyrics, and thats fine. But taken out of the musical context, you end up with "just" a text. That might have a stronger emotional impact, or it may "feel" like it has, due to the fact that it originally appeared as a song which we all know by now.

And, indeed, music and songs are incredible inspiring. Every once in a while, I come across a song that fits perfect to the mood that I want in my game - listening to it then gives me more ideas for new sequences, scenarios, levels, characters and their stories. However!

In the end, can you talk much about that? The way this thread is now is basically a "what comes to your mind when you read this text?". Or, in case the reader knows that song (or knows how to use YouTube, I suppose), "what comes to your mind when you hear that song". And there's plenty.

Of course, you could interprete it rather directly and create a story of a couple and their relationship, with all the problems they face, and with the good sides (that love is involved seems to be the reason for not being able to quit, at least partly. Obviously, it could also be that everyone is used to it, but then, this doesn't fit quite as well, and isn't nearly as nice, is it?).

I'd like to throw a different approach into this thread, in the hope that Pappenheimer approves, or at least, doesn't disapprove too strongly. Instead of merely using that song as inspiration, maybe it'd be possible to use that song "ingame"? Not in the way rhythmgames do it (Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, Elite Beat agents, Rock Band) or Karaoke Games (Singstar etc), but in a way that is actually connected to the song.

In Elite Beat Agents, or "Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan" (whatever), your performance in the song does directly affect the story thats told on the upper screen, although saying that the lyrics and the story actually relate would be an overstatement, its a step into a interesting direction with music: not simply using it as a "level" of sorts, but also adding the story of the theme.

I think that oculd make an intriguing game. Music games are super popular and addictive. Maybe combining the actual "the way I play somehow affects the way it sounds means that I actually play it!" of music games with the story thats told in the lyrics could improve the experience. The question is, how to?

It could, for example, work out like in a musical (not really ), in which the player takes the role of the actors and makes them move or play out the scene that is actually sung. If he does it according to the rhythm and in a fitting way, the score is higher and the song goes Route A (the way it was originally meant to), but if he doesn't manage it so well, the song may go a different route (meaning that the lyrics change, and so does whats needed to play (something easier, probably)).
You can make a nice picture out of

Quote:

My finger tips are holding on to the cracks in our foundation,
and I know that I should let go,
but I can't.




But it doesn't necessarily mean that its a nice idea for a game. Of course, different songs may qualify better.

So... there is that idea how it may make for a good game (innovative as well), but a lot of it is missing. Any other ideas or thoughts to this?


(All that being said: Thats all not so easy for us small hobby developers, is it? You'd need someone to create the songs for you (especially if you go the "custom-variation depending on how good the player is"-route), and how can we get licences?)



---

Also, I still want to make my musical game with voice recognition. Too bad its technically not really possible


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Error014] #175402
01/04/08 00:56
01/04/08 00:56
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline OP
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline OP
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
How to connect acting with music, story with narration etc. to get a gameplay?

No problem:
Each entity has a pointer, each animation has a name, each name has meaning, each meaning has a melody or at least a riff, movement has a rhythm, each step adds to it, each event has an emotional value and switchs to the tune of a certain mood.
Each name is embedded in several phrases, and the phrases are available as voices in midis which can be pitched depending the melody in realtime.
Maybe, even some phrases have rhymes. Maybe, each arena has an own chorus.
So far, each of each might be available by script to be connected by scripted conditions to each other.

When the hero walks through the thorns to meet the dragon, whether he fights him or runs away, this can be accompanied by lyrics in a melody.

The question is, does the player hit the keys as if he plays a piano to get a melody that gives the hero strength or acceleration, or does the player control the hero and that influences the lyrics, rhythms and melody?

(What a big composition of events and sentences and melodies one has to make to offer each player his individual walkthrough! )

Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Pappenheimer] #175403
01/05/08 01:51
01/05/08 01:51
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
Expert
Joozey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Quote:


The question is, does the player hit the keys as if he plays a piano to get a melody that gives the hero strength or acceleration, or does the player control the hero and that influences the lyrics, rhythms and melody?





Both do not sound really original to me.

Making noise to control the player and if you make good noise you complete the game is IMO not really very different than a game like guitar hero (although I do not deny that this way of gameplay could be lifted to new heights).

Walking around and jump inside a group of enemies where the music starts to be very active is no different either from any good FPS (I've examined the changes of music in HALO closely when you get into action, walk into a certain area etc. I have always been interested in this form of art ). Pretty cool but not original anymore, nor is it really the main part of a game anymore. It just makes the atmosphere.

But there is also a third option I guess: The player should hit the keys according to the music/lyrics that are being played in order to play the game right. If the player does not, then the music/lyrics do not continue. The music/lyrics now kinda show in what level you are. Sort of 'repeat after me and you'll succeed', but not _that_ obvious. I'd try to think of something on this area.

Last edited by Joozey; 01/05/08 01:54.
Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Joozey] #175404
01/08/08 08:06
01/08/08 08:06
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,801
Richmond B.C., Canada
Captain_Kiyaku Offline

Dichotomic
Captain_Kiyaku  Offline

Dichotomic

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,801
Richmond B.C., Canada
I was once thinking about this kind of game too and talked with Error014 about it.

My idea was like following:

It's like a normal action adventure (zelda, kingdom hearts, and so on) but with many musical aspects. The player has an instrument as weapon (maybe a string like weapon). When the fight starts, a music will begin and both, the main char and the boss will sing in it. The lyrics and tune of the song will change, depending on which character is "better" at the moment.

For example, both are singing something, then they jump towards each other and sing something like "ahhhhhhhhhhhhh". While they are "singing" this, the player has to play a tune pattern which is displayed on the screen (wether with the keyboard or with mouseclicks on a string-instrument panel). if the player is good, the main char will hit the boss first and goes on singing alone and the tune is happy, hero-like.

If the player does something wrong, the boss will hit the player and the boss keeps on singing with a dark, evil tune (but still the same song!).

The player doesnt really intertact in the fight then, but just keep playing the song. (so not running around and hitting enemies).

I think this could be really interesting in playing, and people would probably try more combinations to listen different songs. But this kind of game requires lot of tracks and animations, you need a really big team behind it.

Me as musical-lover would immediently start doing such a game if i would work in a big team with singers and musicians. This could be really cool.


My Blog

"Tag und Nacht schrei ich mich heiser,
Wind weht alle Worte fort,
Tag und Nacht schrei ich mein Krähenwort!"

Subway To Sally - Krähenkönig
Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Captain_Kiyaku] #175405
01/08/08 18:42
01/08/08 18:42
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline
Expert
Error014  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Quote:

I was once thinking about this kind of game too and talked with Error014 about it.




I swear, I tried to convince him that we'd do that - at least one battle - as a minigame. I still think it'd be great fun, although maybe a little on the short side.

THEN again, I don't know how often I've played some songs on Guitar Hero or EliteBeatAgents.



While we're on the subject, if it was possible, I'd like to create a musical game that actually challenges the player to sing. One would need a pretty good voice recognition engine, though... If it could reliably recognize the words spoken, one may be able to combine it with a wordlist and thus have the game world react on it (Side note. I know that things are way more complicated then that. One would have to put certain restrictions in place as to minimize the possible misunderstandings due to several possibilities to interprete a certain sentence). Then, give words that rhyme to it to the next player, so he or she can "answer" (its time to let the player improvise! )

It's totally not possible right now, but I'd love to try that out


Quote:

Me as musical-lover would immediently start doing such a game if i would work in a big team with singers and musicians. This could be really cool.




If you still want to start that game, I'm on it to help.
(With coding, and not so much singing )


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
Re: Lyrics As The Base Of A Game [Re: Error014] #175406
01/08/08 19:32
01/08/08 19:32
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline OP
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline OP
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
I for my part didn't like those music games where you had to meet certain buttons with the right timing.
I was very disappointed when I saw such a game for the first time.
I can play guitar, at least a bit.
And music is not about copying a timing only, it is about variation.

IMO some platformers have more rhythm than a music game, when you have to hit a combination of certain buttons in the right time to achieve a certain platform or to get a combi hit.

What I would like to see is a music game where you are free to invent your rhythm and melody on the fly, but not that the burden of invention places on the gamer's shoulder alone, but that the game or the friend or the enemy within it gives a certain melody and/or rhythm and you respond with your individual melody on a row of your keyboard. So the game tests whetther your response fits within the given melody and rhythm _and_ whether it adds to it, give it a special drive or beat, and if you add a certain amount of variations as a response to the given melody, you get the chance to invent a melody and rhythm as a challenge the enemy!
To get an easy gameplay for this, imagine the row of "QWERTZUIOPÜ*Ü" as a musical scale!


Moderated by  checkbutton, mk_1 

Gamestudio download | chip programmers | Zorro platform | shop | Data Protection Policy

oP group Germany GmbH | Birkenstr. 25-27 | 63549 Ronneburg / Germany | info (at) opgroup.de

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1